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I don't have a problem with that at all. I do it all the time myself.  

I just find it interesting that monetarists are essentially arguing the same thing.  They know that fiscal spending is what's needed to improve the economy, but they cannot advocate for that because government spending of any kind is worse than keeping high unemployment.

However, there really isn't a compelling body of scientific evidence making an argument for significantly improved health outcomes from eating organic food.  I like it because it seems like it must be cleaner and more wholesome, but there really isn't much evidence for that. The main health beneficiaries are probably the farmers, not the consumers.  Organic sometimes seems to taste better, but often it's because of some other factor that has nothing to do with organic.  For example, an heirloom tomato tastes better regardless of how its grown, but it just so happens that many of them are grown organically anyway, so organic gets the credit for it, not the genes.  

The classic taste test for outing morally informed food tastes versus objectively informed tastes is to compare grass-fed versus corn-fed beef in blind taste tests, organic or not.  The vast majority of blind taste tested consumers tend to choose corn-fed beef because the additional fat content in corn-fed beef strongly stimulates pleasure senses on the human tongue and brain in a way that the more lean grass-fed beef simply cannot, unless it's a really expensive cut that has been fed with dozens of different clovers or whatever.  However, if you ask those same consumers, myself included, which they'd prefer, many more of them still prefer grass-fed because it sounds more organic or ecological or wholesome or something.  It's a moral preference, not an objective taste choice.  

And, to bring birth control moral preferences back into it, I am always amused by hard core foodies who are incensed about the amount of hormones used in dairy production and found in all sorts of places in the environment, causing health issues. It turns out that a large number of the folks who so hate hormone treatment in cattle use it even more intensively in their own bodies or encourage its use by their friends and family members in the form of artificial birth control, which finds its way into water and other things that people consume when it gets tossed in the garbage or expelled in human waste, just like dairy hormone treatments do on a smaller scale.

Nevertheless, it's never a winning argument to bring up because moral preferences are still valid even when they contradict a person's own factual preferences.

by santiago on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 at 03:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm it'd be interesting to know the numbers, the amount of artificial hormones released through direct human (ab)use such as you mentioned, and the amount released by the factory farming.
My guess would be it's minor, (bad anyway...)

The power of knowledge is in mortal combat with the knowledge of power. It really is that simple... That's the Edenic apple we are all munching on.
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 at 04:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, there's a number of people doing research on it now, so it will be interesting to see. I got the info from a radio interview I heard a few months ago from one researcher looking at the problem of US boys with too much estrogen.

One thing, though, is to look at the population numbers. There are only about 9 million dairy cows in the US, only some of which are treated with hormones, probably less than half given the distribution of farm sizes.  There are over 150 million women in the US, only some of which are using birth control.  So the potential for human causes of hormones in the environment rather than dairy farm causes is certainly there, which makes it worth it for someone to study.

by santiago on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 at 04:30:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
too much estrogen

This is a huge question, and it's true we're off-topic.

But there are estrogen imitators or look-alikes of many kinds, and among them agricultural pesticides.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 at 04:32:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, you're right.  I'm not arguing for agribusiness here -- just showing how people who advocate for government to get out of private lives -- monetarist bankers -- can find all sorts of truths and facts to support their moral claims and values, just like others, such as organic food advocates, do in their domains as well.  And even where one's values are wrong, sometimes the facts they uncover are true.
by santiago on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 at 04:51:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And I do not want not to single out women here with this example. Just looking at the email spam ads for male testosterone treatments and the warnings about their crazy-bad health side effects in family members might even be a better example of the dissonance between insisting on hormone-free cattle but using hormones on yourself in ways that might actually injure other people around you more than milk ever could.
by santiago on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 at 04:58:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
santiago:
There are only about 9 million dairy cows in the US,

what about all the pork, chicken, turkey, and beef cows?

perhaps this tangent off of 'pure economics' can serve to remind us that our existence depends more on good nourishment even than good banks and policies.

a fact one can easily forget in talk of spreads and bonds, discount windows and capital conjurings.

back to basics!

The power of knowledge is in mortal combat with the knowledge of power. It really is that simple... That's the Edenic apple we are all munching on.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 at 05:32:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Currently only dairy is subject to hormone treatments on any industrial level.
by santiago on Sat Jun 2nd, 2012 at 02:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
totally right, and don't forget all those wannabe The Hulks, ball players jacking steroids and speed, (when they're not growing tits from too much estrogen).

The power of knowledge is in mortal combat with the knowledge of power. It really is that simple... That's the Edenic apple we are all munching on.
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 at 09:31:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And, to bring birth control moral preferences back into it, I am always amused by hard core foodies who are incensed about the amount of hormones used in dairy production and found in all sorts of places in the environment, causing health issues. It turns out that a large number of the folks who so hate hormone treatment in cattle use it even more intensively in their own bodies or encourage its use by their friends and family members in the form of artificial birth control, which finds its way into water and other things that people consume when it gets tossed in the garbage or expelled in human waste, just like dairy hormone treatments do on a smaller scale.

Without wishing to further derail the thread, that's not necessarily an inconsistent position.

Given that there exists a maximum safe release of hormones and their metabolites into the environment, it is absolutely, glaringly obvious that human medicinal treatments should be favoured over growth enhancers for animal farming. Likewise, if a hormone or its metabolites have undesirable (side)effects in humans, then it makes a great deal of sense to want to avoid contaminating one's food with them, regardless of their medicinal use. For the same reason that wanting to practice proper radiation hygiene is not inconsistent with using x-rays to aid in setting broken bones.

Controlled exposure to known dosages in the context of a well-defined medical trade-off between therapeutic effect and side effects is a whole different ball game from uncontrolled industrial contamination.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 at 04:20:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We don't know who controls dosages better though. I'm thinking dairy farmers probably do given tight margins in that industry, especially if health insurance covers costs of human birth control pills making it less important for consumers to keep track of them instead of just buying replacements.  Also, the population differences are vast between only a few million dairy cows in tightly controlled conditions in a few small parts of the country and tens of millions of reproductive-age women everywhere, each with one's own agency for action, unlike cattle, thank goodness.

But in general, yes, you're right, it isn't necessarily inconsistent.  But the directionality of potential inconsistencies is about the same degree as that of monetarists who think that government encroachment on private lives of people has lots of yet-to-be-identified bad things too.

by santiago on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 at 04:40:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We don't know who controls dosages better though. I'm thinking dairy farmers probably do given tight margins in that industry,

But they have zero incentive to control how many of the metabolites remain in the end product, and that is likely to vary considerably.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jun 2nd, 2012 at 12:52:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's truth in what you're saying about taste, but don't forget organic farming eschews short cycles in raising animals for butchery. So, if you compare an organic chicken with a standard non-organic, the taste difference is evident. Of course, if you compare with a chicken raised on non-organic inputs over an organic-rules lifespan, you'll be lucky if you can find a difference in taste. The important point being that, for an organic label, that longer lifespan is mandatory (and that the economic pressure in the non-organic field leads to shorter lifespans).
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 at 04:27:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
great point. it's 9 mill at one time, multiply through time and short lifespans, and it's loads more.

The power of knowledge is in mortal combat with the knowledge of power. It really is that simple... That's the Edenic apple we are all munching on.
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Jun 1st, 2012 at 06:44:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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