European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch -22 June | 162 comments (162 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Europe (none / 0)

Nope. Not a revision of the constitution. It would need a completely new constitution. Article 146.

by Katrin on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 06:25:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 1)

Yes. I really doubt anybody would go down that route. If this treaty is struck down, it'll mean eurodämmerung.

by oliver on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 06:41:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (4.00 / 4)

If this treaty is not struck down, it'll mean democracydämmerung.

by Katrin on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 06:53:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 1)

We're already seeing Merkel wants it to mean Bundesverfassungsgerichtsdämmerung.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 06:57:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (4.00 / 4)

Ha! No chance of that. If she believes that, she is misjudging the legal, and the political standing of the court. I am talking about a constitutional crisis and political earthquakes with consideration.

Article 20, which along with Article 1 cannot be altered, has a sentence No. 4 concerning the relationship between chancellors who are in breach of Art. 20 and lampposts.

by Katrin on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 07:12:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (4.00 / 3)

Hehe...

Article 20 [Basic institutional principles; defense of the constitutional order]
(1) The Federal Republic of Germany is a democratic and social federal state.
(2) All state authority is derived from the people. It shall be exercised by the people through elections and other votes and through specific legislative, executive, and judicial bodies.
(3) The legislature shall be bound by the constitutional order, the executive and the judiciary by law and justice.
(4) All Germans shall have the right to resist any person seeking to abolish this constitutional order, if no other remedy is available.

From Wiki:

The German government claims that a "4th paragraph" was added to Article 20 in 1968 which says, "All Germans shall have the right to resist any person seeking to abolish this constitutional order, should no other remedy be possible." However this provision is (according to the common opinion of lawyers) not protected by the eternity clause, because it was not included in this Basic Law as originally enacted. Most lawyers claim (though with basis in philosophy of law rather than in this Basic Law) that the amending legislator has no power to enlarge the eternity clause, but at any rate the words "article 20" as appearing in article 79 mean "article 20 as in force at the time article 79 was enacted," and the amending legislator did not in any way reveal an intention to put the right of resistance under the eternity clause. (That is, not by force of this Basic Law itself. If it be argued that the right to resist an illegitimate government is of natural law, then as such it would be included in the words of Article 1 paragraph 2 as given above.)

Question: what happened in 1968 that prompted the addition of this clause to the Basic Law?

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 07:24:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (4.00 / 6)

It was supposed to be a counter-weight to the changes of the Basic Law regarding state of emergency. Prior to 1968 there weren't any rules on a state of emergency, leaving it to the occupying powers. The right to resistance was supposed a check on governments misusing emergency powers.

by IM on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 07:48:08 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 1)

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Emergency_Acts

by IM on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 07:51:20 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

So the departure of the occupying powers required state-of-emergency legislation which required some sort of right-to-resist.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2012 at 05:03:23 AM EST
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Re: Europe (4.00 / 3)

The question if sentence 4 falls under the eternity clause or not is moot anyway: if we will ever use it, neither side will care. The thing is symbolic, making clear where the ultimate power belongs.

by Katrin on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 08:45:47 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 1)

Yes. In a coup or civil war situation an appeal to the courts is not practicable anyway. Inter armes enim silent leges and so on.

by IM on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 08:52:04 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 1)

She doesn't. She's a lot of things, but not outright stupid. That makes me wonder why she tried anyway. The more I think about it, the more it seems like creating plausible deniability to shift the blame when the whole thing comes down.

by oliver on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 08:14:23 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

You can't "shift the blame" to Karlsruhe and think you get away with it. The Constitutional Court is the most respected institution we have. If you really want to lose, pick a fight with them.

I really believe that Merkel doesn't get that. And that would mean she believes in her own spin, which is always a very bad sign.

by Katrin on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 08:50:18 AM EST
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Re: Europe (4.00 / 2)

How do you define picking a fight? For example I'd call the government reaction to the Hartz 4 ruling open contempt.

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter

by generic on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 09:12:24 AM EST
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Re: Europe (4.00 / 5)

The Hartz 4 ruling said that there must be a transparent way to define the needs of a person. It did not say that Hartz 4 must be increased, just that the way to calculate it must be transparent. And so the government did exactly that: presented a way of calculating the minimum a person needs that enabled them not to raise the payment by more than 5€.

by Katrin on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 09:35:36 AM EST
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Re: Europe (4.00 / 2)

The court objected that the way they calculated the needs of a person were arbitrary. Then the government declared they will change how they calculate however they were quite vocal that they will not raise the rates. So how could the basis for calculation be anything other than arbitrary if they state beforehand that the results will be broadly the same as with the old method?

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter

by generic on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 10:12:11 AM EST
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Re: Europe (4.00 / 3)

If I remember correctly, they didn't say that. They even altered the underlying basket and removed articles like alcohol. (We know that all these lazy unemployed only get drunk on the taxpayer's money, don't we?) I agree it's a sham, but can you prove that? It's transparent, and the court didn't demand anything else. And if you don't like the basket, sue.

by Katrin on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 11:05:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmm (4.00 / 3)

Your probably right. Though I remember that they started talking about a "Lohnabstandsgebot" right around that time.

Karlsruhe:

Urteil in Karlsruhe: Hartz-IV-Sätze sind verfassungswidrig | tagesschau.de

: "Da nicht festgestellt werden kann, dass die gesetzlich festgesetzten Regelleistungsbeträge evident unzureichend sind, ist der Gesetzgeber nicht unmittelbar von Verfassungs wegen verpflichtet, höhere Leistungen festzusetzen. Er muss vielmehr ein Verfahren zur realitäts- und bedarfsgerechten Ermittlung der zur Sicherung eines menschenwürdigen Existenzminimums notwendigen Leistungen entsprechend den aufgezeigten verfassungsrechtlichen Vorgaben durchführen und dessen Ergebnis im Gesetz als Leistungsanspruch verankern. Wegen des gesetzgeberischen Gestaltungsermessens ist das Bundesverfassungsgericht nicht befugt, aufgrund eigener Einschätzungen und Wertungen gestaltend selbst einen bestimmten Leistungsbetrag festzusetzen. Die verfassungswidrigen Normen bleiben daher bis zu einer Neuregelung durch den Gesetzgeber weiterhin anwendbar."

Showing that they didn't comply with the ruling would be easy:

Feynsinn » Deutschland zwischen Hartz und HRE

Interessanterweise werden Erwachsenen für Schreibwaren nach wie vor mehr Mittel zugebilligt als Kindern. Allein daran ist schon erkennbar, was hier novelliert wurde, nämlich gar nichts. Niemand hat sich bemüht, die Datenbasis den Anfoderungen der Gegenwart anzupassen, worin geradezu die Aufforderung besteht, jene Willkür an den Tag zu legen, die Karlsruhe dem Gesetzgeber untersagt hatte.

Of course they would just repeat the process so why bother.

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter

by generic on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 01:24:49 PM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

She isn't picking a fight. She pricks the court just below the threshold for that and then she'll implement the ruling she provoked with a sad face. The Kohlist wing of the party is neutralized as they cannot openly demand a breach of the constitution.

by oliver on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 09:30:07 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

She is trying to shift paradigms. "Democracy conforming with the market", remember? No nasty parliaments. What way out has she got if Karlsruhe stops that?

by Katrin on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 11:09:18 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

Merkel's goal is to keep Merkel in office. To do that she wants to save the Euro. She doesn't actually need to save the Euro. She just needs a good excuse for failure.

by oliver on Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 at 12:20:34 PM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

If she fails, she will need more than a very good excuse. Germany will lose most, if the euro fails and then it won't matter if it was Merkel's fault, or the lazy Greeks' fault, or the confidence fairy's fault: we would be rid of Merkel.

We are back at the "stupid or evil" question. The two aren't mutually exclusive, though.

by Katrin on Sat Jun 23rd, 2012 at 02:13:31 PM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

You don't change leaders in the middle of a crisis. Spe may very well be speculating on that.

by oliver on Sun Jun 24th, 2012 at 08:27:36 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

If she is speculating on that, she is proving another of your statements wrong: we would know she is outright stupid. Her popularity depends entirely on the fact that so far the crisis isn't felt in Germany.

by Katrin on Sun Jun 24th, 2012 at 08:40:37 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

You are making the implicit assumption that the Euro can be saved. If you drop that assumption, her behavior makes perfect sense.

by oliver on Sun Jun 24th, 2012 at 01:32:48 PM EST
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Re: Europe (4.00 / 4)

I am making the assumption that the only policy that makes sense for an "export nation" is to support other countries' ability to afford imports. More generally, only if there is prosperity in Europe, there can be prosperity in the country that is in the centre of Europe. This is true with and without the euro, of course. Merkel's policy is not only murderous for our neighbours--it is suicidal too.

Not even if one assumed the euro could not be saved (and it is true that so far I don't see it's impossible to do so), would Merkel's policy make sense. She is deliberately creating tension between European peoples. I don't see anyway that her policy saves some cents if the euro breaks up. Even if it did, we would pay dearly elsewhere for it.

by Katrin on Sun Jun 24th, 2012 at 03:13:18 PM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

The current level of imports in the European periphery could be sustained only if Germany directly pays for them. So German exports to the Eurozone shall drop in any case.
Now, Germany could allow wages to rise in Germany. However, most German exports go outside the Eurozone.

And even if that were tried, I have serious doubts about inflation being easier to control in the periphery than in Germany. So even if the ECB opens the floodgates, we have no guarantee the price/wage feedback would be worse in the periphery, worsening the situation.

Secondly, I was talking about a policy that makes political sense, not economic sense.

by oliver on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 04:40:21 AM EST
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Re: Europe (4.00 / 3)

The current level of imports in the European periphery could be sustained only if Germany directly pays for them. So German exports to the Eurozone shall drop in any case

I believe Meck-Pomm can't pay their imports either. Can we kick those lazies out too, please?

Now, Germany could allow wages to rise in Germany.

I would appreciate that. I note that current policy is to crush wages in the periphery, though.

However, most German exports go outside the Eurozone.

You are a bit cavalier about the ~ 40% "exports" that remain in the currency union. Hey, wait, exports? Why are they "exports"? You are not by any chance from Meck-Pomm, Saarland, or some other lazyland, are you, Oliver?

I have serious doubts about inflation being easier to control in the periphery than in Germany

Sigh. Which inflation?

Secondly, I was talking about a policy that makes political sense, not economic sense.

A policy that makes any sense would be nice. Er, do you think a policy that makes no economic sense can make political sense?

by Katrin on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 10:31:16 AM EST
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Re: Europe (4.00 / 3)

Er, do you think a policy that makes no economic sense can make political sense?

Sadly yes.

(Sigh...)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 10:38:31 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

No. But for a while it may seem so.

by Katrin on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 02:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"For a while" means it does make sense (4.00 / 2)

"Diplomacy is about surviving until the next century. Politics is about surviving until Friday afternoon."

- Yes Minister

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 02:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "For a while" means it makes sense (none / 0)

That sounds straight out of Game of Thrones.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 03:46:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "For a while" means it makes sense (none / 1)

The details change, but the internal logic of power remains a constant.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 03:57:49 PM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 1)

oliver:

most German exports go outside the Eurozone

~60% of German exports go to European countries, most of which are either in the euro area or are converging towards the euro, ie have their currency pegged. It would take a little digging to estimate the percentage that goes to euro + euro-pegged countries, but it is unlikely to be less than 50%.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 12:24:39 PM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 1)

Checking 2011 numbers, the multitude of mostly non-European euro-pegged countries don't amount to much: euro+euro-pegged receive 42% of 2011 German exports. However, 59% of exports went to the EU, and 71% to European countries (including the whole of Russia and Turkey), and most of those countries would need to change policy after an Eurozone disintegration, too.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 05:39:46 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

And even if that were tried, I have serious doubts about inflation being easier to control in the periphery than in Germany.

So what?

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 12:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

We do not have an original problem of public finances (except in Greece). We are facing an economic imbalance. So either

wages/prices in the periphery fall
wages/prices in the core rise
the correction is done by devaluation of the currency

If we had a functional common labor market and common institutions the problem could also be solved by migration. However, the legal right to live and work everywhere in the union doesn't give one the practical ability to do so. I cannot learn Hungarian or Greek by legislative action, nor can other people learn German that way. In addition we cannot export young, productive people in Europe without smashing the tax base, which the member states need to run their own pension systems, health care system and guarantee their banks.

by oliver on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 04:02:32 PM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

Of those three, option 2 is by far preferable, and option 1 is totally unacceptable.

Except if you're a bankster. But fuck the banksters.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 04:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (4.00 / 2)

This is a very revealing comment, because it assumes the only thing that can be done is to adjust relative labour costs, ignores the fact that Germany has been depressing its own wages for a decade and is reluctant to give up that advantage, and assumes that there can be no fiscal transfers. The young, productive people of europe are exporting themselves as we speak, anyway, destroying tax bases and making any attempts at expansionary austerity moot. There is a third way out which you also ignore: allowing defaults or open-ended bailouts to occur within the Eurozone.

Recall: To make or break the euro: Germany's euro trilemma By: Jörg Bibow (24.02.2012)

Replacing lending by transfers, fiscal union proper could save and make the euro overnight. By contrast, ECB liquidity cannot make competitiveness imbalances and the corresponding debt flows go away, even as the foul debts now accumulate on the Eurosystem's balance sheet. So here is the euro trilemma: Germany cannot have all three, perpetual export surpluses, a no-transfer/no-bailout monetary union, and a "clean" independent central bank. Germany's call.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 04:11:43 PM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

And of course this is a case of European Tribune giving you your news a couple of years early...

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 04:29:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 1)

A couple of years earlier we had another paper by Jörg Bibow: Germany Is Unfit For The Euro.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 04:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 1)

We are facing an economic imbalance

Why did I mention Meck-Pomm? What is the difference between Greece and Meck-Pomm? Do you want to kick out Meck-Pomm too? So: what about the economic imbalance?

by Katrin on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 04:42:24 PM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 0)

Germany has advantages as a currency area, mainly that all Germans speak a common language.

However, it would be dishonest to not go to the heart of the matter. There is a German people. There is no European people. Therefore parts of Germany pay for other parts. To be sure there's a limit to that solidarity. Berlin begins testing it. And there's some European solidarity. But it is not strong enough, nor would the potential recipients of that solidarity accept the loss of their independence.

by oliver on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 02:09:00 AM EST
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Re: Europe (4.00 / 3)

The common German language is an invention, and not even a particularly good one: I don't understand Bavarians with their dialect. Or Pfälzer. Yes, I have actually heard two of them: astonishing. They could just as well speak Greek. I am afraid, linguistically you are on very thin ice. The German people is an invention too. There is absolutely no reason why we couldn't invent a European people too. It's a political decision.

"To be sure there's a limit to that solidarity."
Hehe. That remark sounds Bavarian: they have received Länderfinanzausgleich for 32 years, and it enabled them to industrialise and get rid of an excess of southerly laziness. Apparently the method of a transfer union is successful. The moment these southerners became competitive, they demonstrated their ungratefulness and started whining: yes, Bavarians, now you've got to pay. And if you don't like it, stop that talk of secession: do it. Good riddance. German people, my foot. And then Bavaria will see that it depended on being part of a larger unit.

by Katrin on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 03:32:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

Any people is an invention. Nevertheless it is real and cannot be disregarded for more than a certain extent and a certain time. And obviously there is a political decision to be made here. But it is to be made by the people and the outcome is fairly predictable. It will be "No". This being so, it is very likely that even scheduling a referendum on this would kill the Euro by a bank run.

by oliver on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 04:58:51 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 1)

What do you think would be the result of a referendum on the Solidaritätszuschlag?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 06:18:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

Any people is an invention. Nevertheless it is real and cannot be disregarded for more than a certain extent and a certain time

A loaded statement. Apparently you mean the German people, and not the European one. And you take for granted that someone wants to treat it as not real and to disregard it. Do elaborate, Oliver.

We don't agree on what the question of the referendum must be, and consequently about the outcome.

by Katrin on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 07:58:28 AM EST
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Re: Europe (none / 1)

What does a common language have to do with a common currency? Do you think India would work better with several currencies? Or any number of past empires?

Who is and who isn't included in your "German people"? East Germans? Austrians? Swiss Germans? Spätaussiedler? People born & raised in Germany with or without German as first language but with parents or grandparents elsewhere? And is inclusion or exclusion dependent on context?

Do you think a measure decided on by politicians with the justification of solidarity is a direct and exclusive function of solidarity felt by the population?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 04:32:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

A common language facilitates a common labor market. I do not presume that I can speak competently about India, but I note that independence movements are not unknown in parts of India.
As for past empires you should definitely note that they had no problem imposing internal devaluation on provinces.

The German people is what the German people consider the German people. And you cannot completely overrule the people here. The level of transfers necessary would require giving up independence. This requires referenda.

by oliver on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 05:29:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 1)

In which case there should have been referenda in all other Eurozone countries on the transfers consequent on Germany's internal devaluation.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 05:33:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

Making my point.

by oliver on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 07:42:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

... but not the Constitutional Court's point.

by Katrin on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 07:47:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

Well, the court would also not allow the Bundestag to give away unlimited legislative power, which giving the other states a veto power implies.

by oliver on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 07:50:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 1)

The German people is what the German people consider the German people.

LOL. I asked you. If I asked someone else from the circle you consider competent to answer the question, I'd expect to get different answers. (And what about people who consider themselves part of the "German people" but aren't considered to be part of them by other self-described Germans? Or the opposite? Do their opinions count?)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 05:43:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

Well, in my personal opinion, all ethnic Germans and those immigrants that accept certain norms and want to be part of the people.

But it really doesn't matter what I personally think.

by oliver on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 07:45:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

So in your opinion ethnic Danes, Frisians, Sorbians, and Roma aren't Germans. And second class citizens "with migration background" have to "accept certain norms" (which?), while first class citizens are free to shit on these norms.

by Katrin on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 07:50:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

Do you count East Germans as ethnic Germans? Austrians? Swiss Germans? Spätaussiedler?

What about ethnic Germans who don't accept "certain norms"? (Which?)

And again, whose opinion counts if yours doesn't?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 08:35:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

A common language facilitates a common labor market.

It helps but it has never been a necessity. Common labour markets emerged just fine in every conurbation in multi-language settings, from Austria-Hungary to Nigeria; and work force migration well beyond language borders is quite common across history, be it the mostly Italian workers who built railways in Germany or African victims of slave trade.

independence movements are not unknown in parts of India.

This would have a connection to the economic rationality of a common currency only if you think that India's fragmentation into single-language statelets is a likely, nay unavoidable development.

they had no problem imposing internal devaluation on provinces

They had no problem with strategic investment, either.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 05:52:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (4.00 / 3)

the tax base, which the member states need to run their own pension systems, health care system and guarantee their banks.

Sovereigns don't fund their implicit guarantees out of taxes, but out of seigniorage. The Maastricht rules have basically destroyed the ability of the Eurozone to fund public pensions, health care, and bank deposit guarantees.

Time to abandon Bundesbank fundamentalism and allow central bank monetization of implicit sovereign guarantees.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 04:50:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 1)

Berlusconi learnt the hard way that there are exceptions.... (as did Papandreou, Zapatero and lots of others).

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2012 at 09:30:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

Which is why Spain, France, Greece, Denmark, UK... have changed government since 2009.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 24th, 2012 at 02:08:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 1)

We have? You wouldn't know from looking at the news.

(Maybe I'll do a writeup of the recent tax agreement once I can write it without interspersing swear words in every sentence.)

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 25th, 2012 at 01:19:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

What's wrong with swear words in every sentence?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 25th, 2012 at 01:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe (none / 0)

With the deal they cut, I'm not sure anything is wrong with that.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.