Japan's new Feed-in Tariff | 69 comments (69 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: LQD - Japan's new Feed-in Tariff (4.00 / 2)

First, when did rooftop turn into residential rooftop only? Second, what happened to the solar irradiation advantage vs. Germany you championed? Third, you make rather vague points in place of a calculation underlining your "marginal" claim.

I won't even comment your social justice concern trolling, but I note as below that the (temporary) high rates have an explicit justification to jump-start big investment, which after all is a core aim of any feed-in law. (The problem is rather that they might choose to collapse the market again with the later rate cuts.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 01:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LQD - Japan's new Feed-in Tariff (none / 1)

Solar insulation in Japan is higher than in Germany.
This improves the economics - Sticking a given installation on your roof costs about the same, but it produces more in Japan, and since FiT's pay out for actual production any given feedin tarrif level is a considerably stronger incentive in Japan than it would be in Germany. Setting a much higher tarrif than Germany - when the german tarrif has been extremely effective in spurring lots and lots of installation- is just not good policy. I dont know what level of installation they are expecting, but they are going to overshoot it. Very badly. Which is highly likely to cause problems, both of the engineering variety and the political kind.

Hmm. I predict a very good year for solar cell industry. Not so sure about 2014, tough.

by Thomas on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 02:15:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LQD - Japan's new Feed-in Tariff (4.00 / 3)

RE: social justice. This is not concern trolling, I actually care about this. So should you, because if ever the public gets the idea into its head that "green" means "fuck the poor" the cause of sustainability will suffer immense damage.
Avarding private investors long term rents out of the public purse to get them to invest in renewable energy is an abomination - it is neither a free market of any kind, nor is it a plan, and it combines many of the worst aspects of both.
It would be far preferable for the japanses government to just outright buy whatever number of solar panels it feels it needs for its grid, smack them on public buildings until space runs out and if still more are needed, then bribe people to have them installed on their houses.

by Thomas on Fri Jun 22nd, 2012 at 02:25:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LQD - Japan's new Feed-in Tariff (4.00 / 2)

On the historical evidence, if the public get the idea that "green" means "fuck the poor" they'll vote for it in overwhelming numbers.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 25th, 2012 at 05:41:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LQD - Japan's new Feed-in Tariff (4.00 / 2)

At least the UK government will finally make a real effort.

Von überall könnte das Volk, Urbrut alles Undemokratischen, Zelle des Terrors, über die gewählten Hüter von Wachstum und Wohlstand® kommen. - flatter

by generic on Mon Jun 25th, 2012 at 06:01:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LQD - Japan's new Feed-in Tariff (2.75 / 4)

if ever the public gets the idea into its head

While eurogreen does the job to dismantle the class hypothesis, let me just note that the above is like a definition of concern trolling: talk up a nonexistent public concern.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Jun 25th, 2012 at 06:23:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LQD - Japan's new Feed-in Tariff (none / 0)

Is this sort of personal attack really necessary?

I think that the concerns that Thomas is bringing up are sincere, and that it's unfortunate that you're implying otherwise.

I understand your concerns, it's just that I think you're waltzing near the fallacy that any investment in any type of renewable energy ever is going to be economically efficient, at least in terms of the effect on consumer electric prices.

There is an economic case for renewable electricity, however arguing that it always exists, no matter the circumstances, provides fodder for those who argue that it never can exist.

Peace. Out.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 03:19:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LQD - Japan's new Feed-in Tariff (4.00 / 3)

Is this sort of personal attack really necessary?

Deeming an argument concern trolling is not a personal attack but an attack of the argument, and I stand by it.

any investment in any type of renewable energy ever is going to be economically efficient

What does this have to do with Thomas's social justice point?
I never claimed that and this doesn't follow from any of our past or recent exchanges. There are different methods of promoting renewables and I had a negative opinion of certificates already when they still could be touted as a success by some ten years ago; you may recall some of my comparisons of feed-in rates in different countries too; you may also recall that I was negative about the on-ground installations boom in Spain; I was never too enthusiastic about biofuels with their even stronger conflict with agriculture; the market crash I predicted for after the initial three years in Japan is not something I'd call economically efficient; and I waited for others to chip in but I think Japan's promotion of microwind is folly, just like njh and eurogreen.
I asked in a previous exchange upthread, what specific meaning of "economically efficient" are you using? There is more than one possible meaning, and debates between me and you (and past exchanges between me and Thomas) were as much about what should be the measure of success for a renewables incentive as about the evaluation of a specific measure (usually a feed-in law for PV) achieving one goal or the other.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 07:22:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LQD - Japan's new Feed-in Tariff (none / 0)

Thomas:

So should you, because if ever the public gets the idea into its head that "green" means "fuck the poor" the cause of sustainability will suffer immense damage.

pretzel logic...

the utilities, in connivance with energy -especially oil/nukes- companies, and complicit, well-rewarded politicians have been fucking the poor six ways from sunday for decades with enron scam level and worse money games, ridiculous tax breaks for the screwers and multiple rate and bill increases, suppression of clean energy source harvesting, pollution and war for the screwed.

orwell award!

The power of knowledge is in mortal combat with the knowledge of power. It really is that simple... That's the Edenic apple we are all munching on.

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jun 26th, 2012 at 03:38:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Japan's new Feed-in Tariff | 69 comments (69 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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