Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationship with Britain | 50 comments (50 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (4.00 / 4)

The European Union: how to lose friends and alienate people.

It is not often that an Irish Times article generates much interesting discussion amongst its readers, but this article may be an exception. The dominant reaction amongst the 65 comments is to ask what planet Dr. Barrett is living on. Most (of the predominantly Irish) commentators regard the UK's decision not to join the Euro as an inspired dodging of a bullet rather than the strategic mistake Dr. Barrett alleged. Most commentators are also extremely sceptical that Ireland's positive engagement with the EU in recent times has yielded much more than the burdening of the state with an unsustainable level of debt within the context of an increasingly unstable and dysfunctional Eurozone which threatens to beggar us all if not rapidly and radically reformed.
My point is that many of the commentators seem to be on the point of giving up on the EU and advocating a closer realignment with the UK instead - an argument that would have been extremely rare until very recently. It may be little more than a straw in the wind at the present time, but Ireland's love affair with the EU seems to be very definitely over if so many seem willing to embrace the Auld Enemy instead.

So, which part of these commentators' criticism of the EU is wrong on the facts? The only logical mistake may be the view that Ireland must hitch its wagon to a larget entity. Therefore, if it can't be the Eurozone it will have to be Britain. Thay should have a talk with Alex Salmond.

This here commenter's love affair with the EU seems to be very definitely over. I seem to be on the point of giving up on the EU and advocating a closer realignment with Diogenes' barrel. And so on.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 at 04:36:09 AM EST

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (none / 1)

As I hope my story makes clear, I am taking a long historical view on this. I have no doubt that the EU has been very beneficial to Ireland for the vast majority of our 40 years of membership, and not always necessarily in the ways most noted by other observers.

For instance, I would regard the EU's influence on Ireland's social and human rights development as more important than the oft mentioned fiscal transfers as part of the agricultural, structural, cohesion and regional funds. As Ireland has now become a much more (relatively) rich country, I also don't have a problem that those fiscal flows were on the point of being reversed when the crisis hit.

That the past few years have been so negative by comparison is of course a major disappointment to me, and, I hope, not a harbinger of things to come. However, at this point in time, if one were to draw a balance sheet on Ireland's membership of the EU, the experience would still have been overwhelmingly positive, and it is on those positive elements I hope Ireland and the EU will build into the future.

It will, of course, require a realignment of political forces within the EU, and a defeat for the current Austerity ruling ideology for this negative trend to be reversed. However some of what is happening is also due to a failure of the neo-liberal model of capitalism more generally, and also due to peak oil and a relative decline of Europe within the world economy - and thus not the sole fault of the EU. Indeed I see the EU as being the main factor that can help a small state like Ireland to address these larger geo-political and economic challenges.

Most importantly, from a historical perspective, the EU has helped to consolidate an unprecedented period of peace in Europe, current riots in Greece and Spain notwithstanding. Let's not lose sight of that in our despair at the current generation of political leaders.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 at 05:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (none / 0)

On a long historical view, WWII is an outlier, too.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 at 05:40:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (none / 0)

Not really - merely one of a continuous line of wars growing in scale due to the advance of technology. That trendline seriously had to abruptly altered or we would have had a thermonuclear WW3 by now.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 at 05:53:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (none / 0)

Or maybe not.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 at 05:57:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (none / 0)

Seems to contradict you comment that World War II was an outlier.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 at 06:38:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (none / 0)

It was, in the same sense that the peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 at 06:52:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (none / 0)

How can it be an outlier if it is an integral part of the business cycle? Does the very term cycle not imply that it is not an outlier but part of the expected variation?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 at 07:04:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (none / 0)

Yes. It's a quip about how lazy econometrics can give misleading results.

- Jake

If you only spend 20 minutes of the rest of your life on economics, go spend them here.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 at 07:16:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (none / 0)

Precisely, that comment of mine was intended to put your argument on "historical perspective" in perspective.

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 at 07:27:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (3.50 / 2)

Nope, since on a long historical view, there a periodic phases of open interstate conflicts of greater scope and severity and phases of interstate conflicts of less scope and severity ~ the 30 Years War and the Napoleanic Wars (the Original World War, so to speak) come to mind in addition to WWI & WWII.

So, no, on the long historical view, WWII was not an outlier.

As far as having WWIII by now ... that would rather be starting sometime around now or the next few decades.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Jul 14th, 2012 at 09:55:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (none / 1)

Whatever good it comes out of the EU (and much comes out of it) it is because of the circumstantial alignment of your (our) interests and the core powers at the center.

The core countries are more social-liberal than the catholic-strong countries (does this apply to Spain?), then we get the imposition of more social-liberalism. We like social-liberalism around here, thus we get "lucky".

My point is that we get what the core wants with little influence over it.

I am aware that a Portugal out of the EU would have meant a much more backward society. But that comes at a cost of autonomy for all. And that all includes us, but also other countries who went in the other direction (MORE social welfare than the core, more social-liberalism).

In a centralized EU system, an expansion of the welfare state is very difficult to imagine. Indeed the test of different ways of organizing society (some good, some bad) would be much more difficult.

And mark my words: if a centralized power exists it will be taken by the worst kind of interests possible.

And I am accepting at face value that the EU is a good deal. One could argue that the imposed austerity is destroying equality, destroying the health system (killing people), etc. Thus the advantages (more on intangibles, important intangibles, but still intangibles) are starting to look too thin.

by cagatacos on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 at 10:47:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationships (none / 1)

Certainly it has been the social liberal human rights and welfare state oriented people who got the better deal in the early years of membership. The conservative right were more interested in access to larger markets and state aids to employers etc. Young people got employment mobility and greater opportunities than they would have in a stagnant Ireland and have embraced to European ideal much more.

However it has always struck me that the natural corollary of free movement of capital, goods, workers etc. is the development of common standards for employment rights, social welfare, health care, housing, training and education. Somehow the development of the "social market" got stuck before these common standards and benefits developed - no doubt because that would entail v. substantial transfers from rich to poorer regions.

However if the EU is ever to regain is original drive and idealism, this is where I would look to see much further improvements - common industrial, employment, justice, social welfare,, housing, healthcare and educational benefits and rights. Long term these would also substantially improve the "functioning of the markets", the competitiveness of their entire continent, the quality of the standard of living, and the cohesion and structural balance of the EU as a whole.

Neo libs like to focus on the cost of providing all these benefits. However in Ireland their provision and enhancement,, as far as it went, also substantially improved the economic performance and competitiveness of the society as a whole. It was bubble neo-liberal financialisation, not the welfare state which caused the current crisis, and it is the development of a pan European welfare state which may ultimately enable us to get out of this mess - far fetched as that may seem to the growing army of the young unemployed at the moment.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot dotty communists) on Fri Jul 13th, 2012 at 11:48:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re-thinking Ireland's strategic relationship with Britain | 50 comments (50 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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