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They would probably get 10 times as many votes after a campaign to humiliate all Christians by cartoons and other methods.
by Katrin on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 06:49:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No they wouldn't. There is satirical treatment of christianity in Germany all the time. You just have to read the last few editions of Titanic.
by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 07:03:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And since Christianity is the majority religion in Germany, and there is no persecution, the satire can function as a criticism of certain currents in Christianity. Charlie Hebdo's continuation of anti-Muslim cartoon campaigns during a period of persecution of Muslims is an attempt to beat that minority into submission.
by Katrin on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 07:29:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you define : "No longer firebomb us" as submission, you have moved the goalposts.

And even a minority religion can be the target of satire or do you want to make all jewish comedians unemployed?

And no, I reserve the right to critisize the political ideology of islamism. Even if islam the religion is a minority somewhere. That still makes e. g. Mursi a islamist and your misguided denialism doesn't changes that.

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 07:39:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
IM:
If you define : "No longer firebomb us" as submission, you have moved the goalposts

"Us"? There is no "us", I am not a racist. I don't want to be included in that "us". There is absolutely nothing I have in common with the issuers of that stuff.

And no, that's not the definition anyone here uses.

eurogreen:

Nothing from French Islamists so far, nor from any "official" French Muslim source

There. "Nothing". That's total submission.

IM:

And even a minority religion can be the target of satire or do you want to make all jewish comedians unemployed?

These cartoons aren't made by Muslim comedians. They are made by non-Muslims who are issuing a message to Muslims. The equivalent of antisemitic jokes.

IM:

And no, I reserve the right to critisize the political ideology of islamism.

Islamism would be a completely different topic. These aren't Mursi cartoons, they are Mohammed cartoons. The message is "Look what a crazy asshole they revere" and "they" clearly is Muslims, not Islamists. Misguided denialism yourself.

by Katrin on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 08:08:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you want to imply that I am a racist? Nuts.

But nice that you defend the right of islamists to firebomb others. But that is okay: After all you just quite forcefully othered publishers of satirical magazines and other undesirables.

I think the publishers and writers of this magazine, even if you have for some idiotic and clueless reason decided to declare them heretics, have a right to be not firebombed. That is quite reasonable demand.

If you can't even see that, you have a problem.

And then you are indeed no longer any part of "us", that is of a left dedicated to   Enlightenment values.

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 08:24:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
IM:
But nice that you defend the right of islamists to firebomb others.

Do I? Can you point to the post where I did? Are you so desperately out of arguments that you take to misrepresentations?

IM:

But that is okay: After all you just quite forcefully othered publishers of satirical magazines and other undesirables.

The publishers of satirical magazines must be held accountable for the dissemination of hate speech like anyone else.

IM:

you have for some idiotic and clueless reason decided to declare them heretics

Again: I challenge you to point to the post where I did. You can't. You have invented this claim.

by Katrin on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 08:48:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have just called them racists. Earlier you have called them xenophobes. Accusations, I may add, that you have invented out of thin air.

"The publishers of satirical magazines must be held accountable for the dissemination of hate speech like anyone else."

A picture of Mohammed isn't hate speech. And vigilante justice like firebombing isn't the right way to hold someone accountable.

If you really think for some unscrutable reason that they are engaging in hate speech, sue them. That is the proper way to deal with it. Perhaps you could transmit this way of procedure to your new allies on the islamic right?

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 08:55:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
IM:
You have just called them racists. Earlier you have called them xenophobes.

Accusations that I have argued. And where did I call them heretics? Where?  If I was arguing heresy or the like, the debate would be completely different. So why the fuck are you claiming that?

IM:

A picture of Mohammed isn't hate speech

That depends on the message the picture transports. If pictures can't be hate speech, a cartoon of a banker with hooked nose and vile smirk wouldn't be either. Are you arguing that?

IM:

And vigilante justice like firebombing isn't the right way to hold someone accountable.

My own prehistoric activities in front of the Axel-Springer-House don't belong to the wisest things I ever did, but they were a way to hold that media concern accountable. Anyway, all firebombing in reaction to the publication we are discussing here has been invented by you and Jake. When will you get that there was no firebombing?

IM:

If you really think for some unscrutable reason that they are engaging in hate speech, sue them. That is the proper way to deal with it.

With what right are you telling me to shut up? Where is your defence of free speech? If I decide it is the proper way to argue against this hate speech, how come you have the last word on it?

IM:

Perhaps you could transmit this way of procedure to your new allies on the islamic right?

And now you have not only run out of arguments, you have come completely unglued.

by Katrin on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 09:25:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Accusations that I have argued. And where did I call them heretics? Where?  If I was arguing heresy or the like, the debate would be completely different. So why the fuck are you claiming that?"

that is called a metaphor. Racists and xenophobes are surely heretics to the left.

"That depends on the message the picture transports. If pictures can't be hate speech, a cartoon of a banker with hooked nose and vile smirk wouldn't be either. Are you arguing that?"

No. Do you argue that every depiction of a banker is hate speech?

Furthermore:

>Controversy arose over the publication's February 9, 2006 edition. Under the title "Mahomet débordé par les intégristes" ("Muhammad overwhelmed by fundamentalists"), the front page showed a cartoon of a weeping Prophet Muhammad saying "C'est dur d'être aimé par des cons" ("it's hard being loved by jerks").<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo#1992.E2.80.932010

That is not hate speech but rather defending Mohammed against his islamist fans.

"My own prehistoric activities in front of the Axel-Springer-House don't belong to the wisest things I ever did, but they were a way to hold that media concern accountable. Anyway, all firebombing in reaction to the publication we are discussing here has been invented by you and Jake. When will you get that there was no firebombing?"

In the early hours of November 2, 2011, the newspaper's office in the 20th arrondissement[8] was fire-bombed and its website hacked.

And regrading Springer - do you really compare the most powerful german media comglomerate and a small satiric paper?  bY the way, how did your protest work out?

"With what right are you telling me to shut up? Where is your defence of free speech? If I decide it is the proper way to argue against this hate speech, how come you have the last word on it?"

I have not told you to shut up. I just think you are wrong. That is called having an argument.

"And now you have not only run out of arguments, you have come completely unglued."

You have just argued that a fire-bomb is sometimes a valid way of protest, so I am not so sure who is unglued here.

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 09:40:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To clarify:

"These cartoons aren't made by Muslim comedians."

So this paper has just to find a muslim cartoonist? A little affirmative action and everything is fine?

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 08:27:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you forgetting so quickly what you have just written? I was rejecting your "And even a minority religion can be the target of satire or do you want to make all jewish comedians unemployed?"

You compare the anti-Muslim campaign to the work of Jewish comedians instead of comparing them to antisemitic jokes, which would be the appropriate parallel.

by Katrin on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 08:51:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"what anti-muslim campaign? "

I just see a satiric magazine standing up for freedom of speech. Attacked by islamists, who you defend for some reason.

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 08:58:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And yes it is totally legitimate to satirise minority religion.

South park e. g. made fun of mormons and scientologists. That was funny legitimate and not oppressive or persecution. And South Park is probably a lot more influential then Charlie Hebdo.

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 09:00:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Islamism would be a completely different topic."

Not at all. Charlie Hebdo are defending themselves against attacks from islamists - some violent.

And that being also a defense of free speech should be supported.

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 08:37:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
IM:
Not at all. Charlie Hebdo are defending themselves against attacks from islamists - some violent.

They aren't defending themselves at all. They aren't attacked. They are disseminating standard mainstream anti-Muslim racism, and Muslims have no voice.

IM:

And that being also a defense of free speech should be supported

There is no freedom for hate speech. And even though this is not hate speech in the legal sense, it functions as hate speech, which is why I criticise Charlie Hebdo's despicable publication. I note that you categorise my speech as an attack on free speech: apparently only anti-Muslim speech is free.

by Katrin on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 09:00:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course they were attacked. In words of course too but there was also the fire-bomb. If that isn't a attack, what do you need?

"Muslims have no voice" - I am sure that the muslim media in France has a lot higher circulation numbers then the circulation of Charlie Hebdo. Not the count all the muslim ministers, parliamentarians, mayors civil servants journalist etc. in France. And the official representation of muslim organizations.

"There is no freedom for hate speech."

Define hate speech. Freedom of speech has to include undesirable speech or it isn't much of a freedom.

"And even though this is not hate speech in the legal sense, "

well, in this case where is the problem?

"it functions as hate speech,"

That assertion you should perhaps prove at some time

"which is why I criticise Charlie Hebdo's despicable publication."

You see an despicable publication, I see a rather mild satire and an attempt to assert their right of free speech.

That is at worst ill-advised. Not despicable.

"I note that you categorise my speech as an attack on free speech: apparently only anti-Muslim speech is free."

What anti-muslim speech? And categorizing an satirical publication as hate speech is an attack on free speech. I on the other hand haven't tried to suppress your speech or demanded suppression or whatever.

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 09:21:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

We've had enough of this repetitive bickering in this thread.

You don't seem to have noticed this comment below.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 09:41:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And even a minority religion can be the target of satire or do you want to make all jewish comedians unemployed?

Jewish comedians satirise Judaism from the inside.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:48:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But all comedians satirize from the inside...That's what they do. That's their audience. To the extent that other cultures impinge on the inside, they satirize that too.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 01:13:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
<citation needed>
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 02:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As you very well know, there are no citations in the perceptual world ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:15:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bullshit.

When you say

But all comedians satirize from the inside...That's what they do. That's their audience. To the extent that other cultures impinge on the inside, they satirize that too.

you're making statements of fact. Unless we're suppose to interpret everything you say as "I just pulled this out of my ass right now".

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:23:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can do what you like with it. It's art - remember?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:31:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm going to ignore it as worthless.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 04:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a question: can you see why the song If you could see her through my eyes from Cabaret would have been morally wrong satire if it had historically been sung in a German cabaret in the early 1930s? Or do you think that kind of satire is okay?

(to be sure, I think it is okay for the musical to actually contain the song as a way to illustrate the state of opinion in pre-Nazi Germany, though apparently when the stage musical came out it provoked protests from Jewish groups in the US)

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:15:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You answered it yourself.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:19:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't avoid the question.

Interpret the song (by itself, within the musical, and in the fictional universe of the musical) for me.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't be bothered.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:32:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I keep forgetting you don't write in English but in Triloqvistian and you never mean what you say.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:35:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the wonderful world of ET On Ice, where genius meets obstinacy, about the only thing I have to offer is my ability to skate on the thin ice of semantics.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:43:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Redefining meaning when it suits you is not skating on the thin ise of semantics, it's shattering the ice with a sledgehammer.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 04:49:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not as smart as you, but I am funnier.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:46:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You think you're funny, but being funnier than me is not saying much.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 04:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Salam Rushdie did write about Islam from the inside.

That didn't help him very much.

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 02:39:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And the nexus of Salman Rushdie to our debate is what exactly?
by Katrin on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 02:45:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He wasn't satirising or criticising.

But in any case, what I-m trying to argue is that precisely because it's done from the inside it would be worthy of defence even if its intent were to provoke, which as far as I know it wasn't.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:19:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rushdie was deliberately provocative because he was describing his own cultural experience - in a sense his own commentary - on the Qur'an. He knew it was a sensitive subject since most of the world's religions protect their 'Words' very carefully, even if the bulk of their rituals are derived from regulated commentary on the 'Words', not the words themselves.

Like the Second Amendment.

But of course provocation was not his primary motive, if a motive at all. His motive was to explain how he came to be, what he had experienced. His sin was to be W*st*rn.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:30:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
His sin was to be W*st*rn.

Yeah, because he was Indian-born of Kashmiri descent.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:32:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Inside!
by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:39:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He was criticising a culture he was part of. That has nothing to do with CH teaching the values of the Republic to the natives.
by Katrin on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:50:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
careful here. Now you are arguing that muslims are not a part of France.

Anyway, to Islamists it doesn't matters a whit if the critique is from the inside or outside. They are enraged anyway.

Ant you are more and more sliding into a "outside agitator" argument.

by IM on Mon Jan 7th, 2013 at 03:44:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I am arguing that Charlie Hebdo is not a part of Islam. And I say Islam, not Islamism. These cartoons  offend Muslims, not just Islamists. The latter profit by the outrage, though.
by Katrin on Mon Jan 7th, 2013 at 06:33:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You should probably prove that sometime.

With polls.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jan 7th, 2013 at 07:14:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"He wasn't satirising or criticising."

If that is true that rather strengthens my argument.

I don't think critique, even provocative critique - and some people are provoked by everything don't need to be from the inside - whatever inside is - to be legitimate.

You probably know the term "outside agitator". Has a lot to do with the definition who inside or outside.  

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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