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And even a minority religion can be the target of satire or do you want to make all jewish comedians unemployed?

Jewish comedians satirise Judaism from the inside.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:48:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But all comedians satirize from the inside...That's what they do. That's their audience. To the extent that other cultures impinge on the inside, they satirize that too.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 01:13:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
<citation needed>
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 02:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As you very well know, there are no citations in the perceptual world ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:15:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bullshit.

When you say

But all comedians satirize from the inside...That's what they do. That's their audience. To the extent that other cultures impinge on the inside, they satirize that too.

you're making statements of fact. Unless we're suppose to interpret everything you say as "I just pulled this out of my ass right now".

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:23:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can do what you like with it. It's art - remember?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:31:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm going to ignore it as worthless.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 04:51:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a question: can you see why the song If you could see her through my eyes from Cabaret would have been morally wrong satire if it had historically been sung in a German cabaret in the early 1930s? Or do you think that kind of satire is okay?

(to be sure, I think it is okay for the musical to actually contain the song as a way to illustrate the state of opinion in pre-Nazi Germany, though apparently when the stage musical came out it provoked protests from Jewish groups in the US)

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:15:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You answered it yourself.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:19:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't avoid the question.

Interpret the song (by itself, within the musical, and in the fictional universe of the musical) for me.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't be bothered.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:32:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I keep forgetting you don't write in English but in Triloqvistian and you never mean what you say.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:35:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the wonderful world of ET On Ice, where genius meets obstinacy, about the only thing I have to offer is my ability to skate on the thin ice of semantics.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:43:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Redefining meaning when it suits you is not skating on the thin ise of semantics, it's shattering the ice with a sledgehammer.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 04:49:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not as smart as you, but I am funnier.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:46:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You think you're funny, but being funnier than me is not saying much.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 04:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Salam Rushdie did write about Islam from the inside.

That didn't help him very much.

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 02:39:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And the nexus of Salman Rushdie to our debate is what exactly?
by Katrin on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 02:45:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He wasn't satirising or criticising.

But in any case, what I-m trying to argue is that precisely because it's done from the inside it would be worthy of defence even if its intent were to provoke, which as far as I know it wasn't.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:19:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rushdie was deliberately provocative because he was describing his own cultural experience - in a sense his own commentary - on the Qur'an. He knew it was a sensitive subject since most of the world's religions protect their 'Words' very carefully, even if the bulk of their rituals are derived from regulated commentary on the 'Words', not the words themselves.

Like the Second Amendment.

But of course provocation was not his primary motive, if a motive at all. His motive was to explain how he came to be, what he had experienced. His sin was to be W*st*rn.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:30:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
His sin was to be W*st*rn.

Yeah, because he was Indian-born of Kashmiri descent.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:32:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Inside!
by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:39:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He was criticising a culture he was part of. That has nothing to do with CH teaching the values of the Republic to the natives.
by Katrin on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:50:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
careful here. Now you are arguing that muslims are not a part of France.

Anyway, to Islamists it doesn't matters a whit if the critique is from the inside or outside. They are enraged anyway.

Ant you are more and more sliding into a "outside agitator" argument.

by IM on Mon Jan 7th, 2013 at 03:44:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I am arguing that Charlie Hebdo is not a part of Islam. And I say Islam, not Islamism. These cartoons  offend Muslims, not just Islamists. The latter profit by the outrage, though.
by Katrin on Mon Jan 7th, 2013 at 06:33:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You should probably prove that sometime.

With polls.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jan 7th, 2013 at 07:14:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"He wasn't satirising or criticising."

If that is true that rather strengthens my argument.

I don't think critique, even provocative critique - and some people are provoked by everything don't need to be from the inside - whatever inside is - to be legitimate.

You probably know the term "outside agitator". Has a lot to do with the definition who inside or outside.  

by IM on Sun Jan 6th, 2013 at 03:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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