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I have long argued with my brexiteer sister that much of the bureaucracy (she's a small business owner) complains aobut originates in whitehall, not Brussels.

However, as I've realised, I can prove my case again and again, but each time she walks out of the door, she resets to default.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 1st, 2017 at 06:14:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like many others she needs to experience the consequences ("hard" withdrawal) for herself in order to learn the lesson. It is as necessary as hand on the flame sometimes.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Nov 1st, 2017 at 06:35:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
trouble is, we're all gonna get burned

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 1st, 2017 at 07:36:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, that lesson (nadie es libre a/k/a no man is an island a/k/a ... ) and concomitant fallacies (rational self-interested ... a/k/a free market a/k/a no such thing as society... "empathy" &tc) are related to the forgoing.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Nov 1st, 2017 at 07:47:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And it's v. hard to unburn a hand.  And I'm not sure any lessons will be learned. Ten years from now, with the UK economy perhaps 10% smaller than it otherwise would have been, most people will shrug their shoulders when asked about Brexit and say gaining their "freedom" was worth it, and that any loss of output and wealth was all because the EU chose to "punish" the UK.

I used to have an equilibrium theory of politics (a very long time ago). According to this theory if a political system moved very hard right a reaction would occur and it would then swing hard left around some notional centre.

Then I saw too many cases where this simply didn't happen.  People would double down on their mistakes and become ever more embittered and entrenched in their views. Far from swing back left the whole spectrum or Overton window or notional centre would just keep careering right.

And then, even if they did fall right over a cliff and the whole system crashed they would still be heard mumbling into their beers about how they had been betrayed.  Hitler felt that way about his armies even when they had been faced with overwhelming odds. American generals felt that way about the Vietnam war being lost because of the libruls back home.

One of the reasons I find the whole substance and style of the Trump Presidency so alarming is that he is redefining what is normal to such a huge degree. And he hasn't lost much support and Republican governors are still amongst the most popular in the land. He is changing what it means to be an American.

There is simply no bottom to how low this can get, and no automatic corrective to pull it back to some notional mean. The UK in 10 years time could be significantly poorer (relative to the EU), ultra-nationalist, quasi fascist, and xenophobic as hell, and it will all have come to be seen as normal by the majority. A backwater doesn't seem like a backwater to those who know no different.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Nov 1st, 2017 at 09:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
frankly I think the UK would have dodged a bullet if our economy only diminishes by 10%.

given the lack of manufacturing and the politics of Westminster vis a vis the City, I believe the Tories have ambitions for us to be reduced to a despeately poor 3rd world offshore tax haven with an oligarchic elite lording it over the rest of us.

It's not that they want the majority of the population to be reduced to destitution, it's just that we will be unhappy collateral damage to them feathering their own nests.

That said, there will be no doubling down on right wing stupidity here, the next PM will be Corbyn. That will change the trajectory of the nation quite considerably.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 2nd, 2017 at 08:32:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That said, there will be no doubling down on right wing stupidity here, the next PM will be Corbyn. That will change the trajectory of the nation quite considerably.

Not sure how much it'll improve it though: Corbyn seems overly enamoured of solving problems from 1977 rather than 2017.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 2nd, 2017 at 11:36:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Meh, 2017 was what Varoufakis tried.
But realistically there can be no clean break brexit. So  I totally expect the EU to go back to their favourite hobby of pulling the wings off socialists when it is time to negotiate an extenseion to the extension of the temporary emergency aggreement.
by generic on Thu Nov 2nd, 2017 at 11:57:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
nobody solved the problems of 77, they just pretended that thatcher made them all go away. How do you solve the problems of the UK? Start at the beginning; 77 is as good a place to start as any, better than many in fact.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 2nd, 2017 at 03:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And by the time you spend fifty years fixing the problems of the seventies you'll be just in time to start figuring out the  problems of 2017. I'm not sure the swarms of autonomous AIs in fusion powered  flying cars are going to be impressed.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Nov 5th, 2017 at 03:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did advise you back when the selfservin sumbitch was elected in '08 that the US is essential a conservative nation. You didn't believe me then, which is fine, I guess, since so many Americans deny it, too, while voting in conservative fiscal and special, social "hot button" issues all up and down biennial tickets.
MAP
US "liberalism" has been fading for more than thirty years.


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Nov 4th, 2017 at 11:08:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think I was ever under any illusions about the strength of US conservatism and I was about to deny even being around this joint that far back when I thought I'd better check. Oh schucks - my first post here was on 28th. Nov. 2001 - my 10th. anniversary is coming up!

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Nov 5th, 2017 at 07:56:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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