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Taibbi: Why Donna Brazile Book on Hillary Clinton Primary Matters - Rolling Stone -

This isn't about Hillary Clinton. It's about a broader movement that took place within the Democratic establishment, and spread rapidly to blue-friendly media and academia.

It's a kind of repeat of post-9/11 thinking, when suddenly huge pluralities of Americans decided the stakes were now too high to continue being queasy about things like torture, extralegal assassination, and habeas corpus.

In the age of Trump, we're now throwing all sorts of once-treasured principles - press ethics, free speech, freedom from illegal surveillance - overboard, because the political stakes are now deemed too high to cede ground to Trump over principles.

But this distrust of democracy began before Trump was even a nominee. As Brazile notes, it started within the ranks of the Democratic Party near the outset of the campaign.

None of those things are new. He even writes about the post 9/11 psychotic episode without detailing how it ended. Because it really didn't. Guantanamo is still open.
And as Chomsky was fond of pointing out before I was even born: the "Crisis of Democracy" was that there was too much of it.

Noam Chomsky - Wikiquote -

During the 1960s, large groups of people who are normally passive and apathetic began to try to enter the political arena to press their demands.... The naive might call that democracy, but that's because they don't understand. The sophisticated understand that that's the crisis of democracy.

    Manufacturing Consent, lecture at the University of Wisconsin (15 March 1989) [4].

by generic on Tue Nov 7th, 2017 at 01:44:01 PM EST
You can tell Brazille has ruffled a few feathers by the extent and hysteria of the backlash.

Sure, there are a few odd things she said that are relatively easy to disprove, but I think she has useful things to say. Especially about how utterly clueless the Clinton campaign "machine" was.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 7th, 2017 at 05:18:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Forgot to post it, but Greenwald collected a list of blatantly wrong statements about Brazille.
by generic on Fri Nov 17th, 2017 at 12:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Twitter thread - Jonathan Lis - the bad news and the worse news

1/Back from meetings in Brussels. There's good news and bad news. First, the bad news. Because it's... extremely bad.

2/ While consensus in London seems to assume trade talks kick off in December, senior EU officials now consider this, on balance, unlikely

3/ Brussels monitors UK media & ministers' statements - they can see PM has been backtracking since Florence - ie backtracking to cliff-edge

4/ Behind the scenes, also evidence that UK has reneged on guarantees for citizens that it initially signalled it would make. Really bad.

5/ As for money, if May insists she can't make any further commitments, EU will not trigger trade talks in December. It's that simple.

6/ EU went as far as it could in Oct. Nobody's asking for precise figure, just specific commitments. €60bn the ballpark figure.

7/ UK Government knows all this, incidentally. They're in denial about it. But what happens if they test EU anyway?
.....

and there's more

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 7th, 2017 at 03:23:14 PM EST
I was actually coming online to post that here... The ones that I picked up on were these:

26/ EFTA officials confident UK could apply to join EFTA quite quickly & provisionally apply agreement for Mar 19, seamlessly staying in EEA
27/ This, provided Norway & Iceland happy to let UK in for transitional period. But they would be under great pressure to allow it.
28/ Might even be possible for UK to negotiate 'associate' EFTA status so doesn't have to apply to join EFTA's trade deals (big concession)
29/ Only... Northern Ireland is ruined, because off-shelf EEA agreement excludes agriculture. Which means full WTO tariffs. No ifs, no buts.
30/ EEA Agreement Article 19 provides framework for agri liberalisation- but needs to be negotiated from scratch. Norway's deal took 2yrs.

by Bjinse on Tue Nov 7th, 2017 at 08:57:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it's all horrible

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 7th, 2017 at 10:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Needing a fix of mega-brain-bending hallucinogens, but don't want any of the nasty come-down or addiction issues?

Spend 15 minutes inside Carter-Page's head.

It will be...strange

WaPo - Alexandra Petri - The paranoid Carter Page transcript: What in God's name did I just read?

Carter Page's testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, the transcript of which was released Monday night, was like trying to read a magic eye painting. It is the sort of thing a lawyer -- or, really, any person concerned with your welfare -- would tell you not to say to a congressional committee. Yet, here we are. For anyone who doesn't want to curl up with 243 pages of testimony and footnoted letters, here is pretty much how the thing went, severely condensed.

Carter Page: Hello. I am a doctor and a scholar, and I am here about the world premiere of the dodgy dossier that inexplicably made all kinds of charges against me, an innocent man who has never met anyone directly in my life! I have been illegally wiretapped by the FBI, CIA and other U.S. propaganda agencies, and my life has been ruined. I must be continually on the move, like a shark. I have done nothing wrong, but I will answer none of the questions put to me, because I have been studying the law. I am, as I said, a scholar. Here is a letter. I know it looks like a scrawl in red crayon, but trust me -- it is a letter about the CIA's illegal dossier.

Thomas Rooney: Okay. Who are you? Did you work for the Trump campaign?........



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 8th, 2017 at 08:03:03 PM EST
Petri might as well have not included a link to the transcript. Page's opening remarks and testimony in the hearing begins, p 34.
MR. PAGE: Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the historic impact of big money opposition political research operations on the U.S. Intelligence Community over the past 14 months. As the American public has now learned, these epic fictitious stories primarily stemmed from the momentous world premiere of oppositin political research from the dodgy dossier which maliciously attacked me and the Trump campaign in the final weeks preceding last year's elections....

So yes. He's cast himself in the role ALGER HISS.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Nov 8th, 2017 at 11:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If he is to play Alger Hiss the Republicans need to be played by the Democrats. But it is unlikely to end much better for him than it did for Hiss.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Nov 10th, 2017 at 09:17:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
HUAC (1938-1956) was a Democratic Party orgy from start to finish.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Nov 10th, 2017 at 11:18:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I will agree that it was a running despicable bipartisan debacle and that it was created in 1938 when Democrats owned Washington. The concept embodied in its name is, itself, repugnant. The fact that The Solid South was Democratic then was doubtless another contributing factor to the unsavory tone that the Committee so often displayed. But control of the committee was determined by who controlled the House and the most outstanding and outrageous excesses occurred when Republicans controlled the House. One of these was the whole Alger Hiss affair, when the Committee was chaired by John Parnell, R, Penn. Richard Nixon was another prominent member while he was in the House of Representatives. As to Parnell:
(He was) elected as a Republican to the Seventy-fifth and to the six succeeding Congresses and served from January 3, 1937, until his resignation January 2, 1950, following conviction on charges of salary fraud; chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities (Eightieth Congress); editor and publisher of three weekly newspapers in Bergen County, N.J., 1951-1955; real estate solicitor in 1955 and 1956...


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Nov 11th, 2017 at 05:33:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Link

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Nov 11th, 2017 at 05:36:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fair enough. HUAC controlling membership did acquire in '56 some semblance of bipartisan interests.

I was hoping you'd flag plays in the SENATE SUBCOMMITTEE on Internal Security in the period, beginning 1951.

The chairman of the subcommittee in the 82nd United States Congress was Patrick McCarran of Nevada. William Jenner of Indiana took over during the 83rd United States Congress after the Republicans gained control of the Senate in the 1952 election. When the Democrats regained control in the 84th Congress (1955-1957), James O. Eastland of Mississippi became chairman, a position he held until the subcommittee was abolished in 1977.

McCarthy chaired this subcommittee only '53-'54. HISS, a Democrat, was indicted by HUAC in '48, however, while the Democratic Party controlled the House. (Incidentally, exonerating non-fiction is trending these days that disputes FBI paid-informant CHAMBERS testimony.)

You would have noticed in the wikipedia reference (above) conforming name change of HUAC (1969), signifying one may argue, success of House activities in suppressing and appeasing domestic threats to the Democratic Party vanguard in the southern states such as "communist-front" civil rights agitation, ergo re-allocation of resources to the war effort as well as birth of the RNC "Southern Strategy".

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Nov 11th, 2017 at 07:31:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Speaking of celebrities buried in Democratic Party de basement of intrigues, let's not forget the campaign to impugn Henry Wallace, Democratic Party communist sympathizer --Sec of Ag, Vice-President, later Progressive Party nominee-- from the run up to WWII through Truman's contested administrations.

I enjoy Schlesinger's narration of it best.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Nov 11th, 2017 at 07:57:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought of it though. But I was working from my laptop and the wireless keyboard isn't working. I always slip a finger and create disaster on the laptop's keyboard, so I try to keep things brief. The biggest political disaster for the US was the replacement of Wallace with Truman. FDR really wanted an accommodation with the Soviet Union. What began at Yalta was smothered in the crib by more conservative and militarist Democrats. It is a stain on FDR's legacy.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Nov 12th, 2017 at 03:43:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
keyboards ... I do believe a few dinner morsels are interred beneath my laptop's keys.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sun Nov 12th, 2017 at 08:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed.  Wallace had his issues, but the treatment he has received is nothing short of defamation.  Cat's link is to an article by Conrad Black, convicted fraud and former owner of the Telecrap, so finding him defaming basically defaming everyone to the left of Genghis Khan in the pages of the National Re-spew (which William B. Fuckley frankly founded to provide his segregationist buddies from Yale a media outlet) is no surprise.  As for Schlesinger, he was a zealot of the Best and the Brightest dogma, and part of his credo was that only Ivy and near-Ivy should be allowed near the levers of power and that the closest some shit-kicker from Iowa should get to those levers was as, perhaps, the president's bedpan jockey.
by rifek on Sun Nov 12th, 2017 at 09:13:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Come on now, I'm thinking of Shlesinger's two volumes on the "New Deal" in which his admiration for Wallace in each of his capacities is actually unstinting. His account of the Lend-Lease policy, the various figures (e.g. Hopkins vs. Wilkie!) trapped between FDR's equivocal alliance with the Soviets and yellow sheet "investigations" of mystical influences, as well as DNC convention gears is sympathetic.

Unlike the New Republic: which just goes to demonstrate how robust "communist-front" smears are.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Nov 13th, 2017 at 12:02:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If the tax cuts are not enough for you....

How it became a crime to be poor in America

In the United States, a system of modern peonage - essentially, a government-run loan shark operation - has been going on for years. Beginning in the 1990s, the country adopted a set of criminal justice strategies that punish poor people for their poverty. Right now in America, 10 million people, representing two-thirds of all current and former offenders in the country, owe governments a total of $50bn in accumulated fines, fees and other impositions.

The problem of "high fines and misdemeanors" exists across many parts of the country: throughout much of the south; in states ranging from Washington to Oklahoma to Colorado [...]

As a result, poor people lose their liberty and often lose their jobs, are frequently barred from a host of public benefits, may lose custody of their children, and may even lose their right to vote. Immigrants, even some with green cards, can be subject to deportation. Once incarcerated, impoverished inmates with no access to paid work are often charged for their room and board. Many debtors will carry debts to their deaths, hounded by bill collectors and new prosecutions.

[...] to understand America's new impulse to make being poor a crime, one has to follow the trail of tax cuts that began in the Reagan era, which created revenue gaps all over the country.

The anti-tax lobby told voters they would get something for nothing: the state or municipality would tighten its belt a little, it would collect big money from low-level offenders, and everything would be fine.

Deep budget cuts ensued, and the onus of paying for our justice system - from courts to law enforcement agencies and even other arms of government - began to shift to the "users" of the courts, including those least equipped to pay.

Trump or sunshine...

by das monde on Fri Nov 10th, 2017 at 03:05:18 AM EST
re: "Beginning in the 1990s..."

About that? No. Let's roll that back to 1789.

I've had the pleasure of informing some UIDs who were complaining about the compensation CA female inmates who volunteered to work forest fires. iirc, $2/hr + incremental time served. I'm, like, cain't you see progress staring you in the face?!

XIII Amendment: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

VIII Amendment: Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted, if "peonage" be arranged instead...

Quoting Plessy v. Ferguson (1896) legitimizing apartheid in the USA ("Jim Crow") to an UID laboring with the impression that affected only poll taxes and literacy testing to exercise a vote ...

Quoting Wilson and DiIulio, high school AP American Government: Institutions and Policies, 14th Edition: "As we shall see, American welfare policy since the 1930s has been fundamentally shaped by a slow but steady change in how we have separated the 'deserving' from the 'undeserving' poor" ...

Quoting Richard Rothstein, The Color of Law: Forgotten History Of How Our Government Segregated America ...

Quoting the curiously atavistic Bail Reform Acts of 1984...

Quoting Voting Rights Restoration Efforts in Virginia just last summer ...

Being poor in US America has always been a "crime."

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Nov 10th, 2017 at 05:32:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Adolph Reed has contributed much more to analyses of the repression of class discourse in US mass "movements," or Identitarianism, than you may have gathered fro the occasional Jacobin articles.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Nov 11th, 2017 at 08:18:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

by generic on Mon Nov 13th, 2017 at 08:23:41 AM EST
Zahl des Tages: 8Stunden - taz.de -
Firmen müssten im digitalisierten Wettbewerb agil sein und schnell ihre Teams zusammenrufen können, so der Waise zur Welt am Sonntag. Auf unseren nächtlichen Anruf, wie er das denn nun genau meint und dann auch in Angriff nehmen will, hat er aber nicht reagiert. Vielleicht war er auch im Urlaub.

One of the economic wise man called for flexible working time again. He wasn't available for comment when TAZ called him at night.
by generic on Mon Nov 13th, 2017 at 01:03:45 PM EST
Defend Democracy Press - Dimitris - Konstantakopolus - Dijsselbloem Speaks: The Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

During a debate in the Committee on Employment of the European Parliament, a Greek Eurodeputy asked the President of the Eurogroup (the informal economic government of the Eurozone) if the Greek bail-out program was an effort to help and save Greece, or an effort to save the banks. Mr Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the Dutch Finance Minister, answered that "We have used the money of the taxpayers to save the banks. Those who say that everything was done to save the banks have some point".

We remind our readers that Mr. Dijsselbloem threatened the Greek government with closure of Greek banks three days after the election of the new SYRIZA-ANEL government in January 2015, asking it to recognize the legitimacy of the debt and the validity of the neocolonial agreements signed by previous Greek governments, both accepted by Tsipras and Varoufakis one month later. He also applied every kind of pressure and blackmail during the first six months of 2015 in order to scupper any attempt by the Greek government to resist the program designed "to save banks" (and destroy Greeks), as he admitted in the Europarliament.

This same Dijsselbloem said more or less the same things in a recent interview to a Greek newspaper. Speaking about the way Europe addressed the problems after the 2008 crisis he answered:...



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 14th, 2017 at 05:49:21 PM EST
Guardian - Aditya chakrabortty - Austerity, not Brexit, has doomed the Tory party

The obituary for this government was published within days of its birth. Theresa May was a "dead woman walking", proclaimed former cabinet colleague George Osborne. Thus was a sniggering bully transformed into an acerbic prophet. Who now dares argue with that verdict? Two senior ministers out within a week, two more barely clinging on to their jobs, and an administration that makes no progress, but merely lurches from disaster to catastrophe.

And so begins the Great Unravelling of the oldest political party in Europe, arguably the world. It leads the BBC bulletins. For the commentariat, it is their meat and drink and their tiramisu.

Yet what almost the entire political class cannot comprehend is why it is happening. To go by the stories told by most of the press, David Cameron's Tories were essentially a haven of competence for six years - then came Brexit, then came May, then came death by pratfall.

This is to get things precisely the wrong way round. What is destroying the Conservatives is not outside forces, nor the cack-handed pricking of a gusher of ministerial ineptitude. No, the fundamental cause is their own economic strategy of austerity. Of cutting taxes for the wealthy, while cutting public services and social security for the rest. Of rewarding the owners of capital, while punishing those who rely on their labour. Of claiming to have fixed the economy, while tanking voters' living standards.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 14th, 2017 at 05:52:28 PM EST
If that's what it's about, how come people have been voting for the Tories all the time during the last 30 years?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Nov 14th, 2017 at 06:07:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because you can ruin a lot of working class lives for profit before you use up all the prosperity in the economy and start chewing on middle class bone

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Nov 14th, 2017 at 06:12:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because it is SO easy to recruit people to conspire against their own interests.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Nov 14th, 2017 at 09:59:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the article is claiming that it's not so easy any more. What changed?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Wed Nov 15th, 2017 at 07:07:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Enough of the electorate was convinced to go with the worst of their instincts and voted for Brexit. Sadly, even though it SHOULD be clear by now that Brexit cannot end well, and while there are ways to climb down, neither May nor most of her party members seem to have the courage and wisdom to change this disastrous course. May and her colleagues apparently are deep in denial about the actual likely outcome of their efforts and irrelevantly think that they would be destroyed by reversing course. Irrelevant as they have ALREADY destroyed themselves but haven't realized it just yet. So they get to see their political careers ended and their party's future put in jeopardy AND have the distinction of being seen in historical perspective, possibly, as the worst UK government since.....? (Any suggestions?) Blindly carrying on.

If they wanted to  be able to pick something of value out of the ashes of their government's catastrophe it should be to sacrifice this version of Tory government for the long term interests of the nation by calling for a new referendum and recommending that Brexit be canceled. I hope that something like that happens but see little reason to think it will. And an economy shrinking by 5%l over a couple of years describes a depression brought on by political malpractice.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Nov 16th, 2017 at 04:50:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the worst UK government since.....?

Anthony Eden? Neville Chamberlain? Lord North? There's tough competition.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu Nov 16th, 2017 at 05:35:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I really didn't want to write Chamberlain. He has been bashed enough. Think I'll go with Lord North. Talk about disasters! Eden was tagged with 'losing Suez' - as if anyone could have held on to the remnants of empire. The UK did not have the income to support such an endeavor by that time. J.S. Mill had it right when he called India 'a vast system of outdoor relief' for the sons of the upper class.
 

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Nov 16th, 2017 at 06:41:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't referring to the fact that he "lost Suez", but to the way he tried to hang on to it, including conspiring with Israel, only 2 years after Israeli terrorists (Averny makes a good case that the plot was organized by Dayan) bombed a British theatre in Egypt.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu Nov 16th, 2017 at 07:11:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You would remember that as I remember the details of Vietnam.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Nov 16th, 2017 at 06:25:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was Cameron's gamble to lose really. While he waltzes off into the sunset, Teresa and Boris are finishing the job of dousing the whole idea of the Tory party with petrol for eventual incineration.
He thought the people wohkd vote to stay, and the EU would continue to put up with Britain's miserly, manipulative cavillings, with gutter press chorusing 'EU bad' for ever.
Teresa's opting for an general election was almost as stupid, Boris sticks his foot in at every occasion he can.
The only reason incompetence and lousy judgement?
Or because the PTB that want Britain to become the global centre for bankster games like Libor.

" You may have heard of the Libor scandal, in which at least three - and perhaps as many as 16 - of the name-brand too-big-to-fail banks have been manipulating global interest rates, in the process messing around with the prices of upward of $500 trillion (that's trillion, with a "t") worth of financial instruments. When that sprawling con burst into public view last year, it was easily the biggest financial scandal in history - MIT professor Andrew Lo even said it "dwarfs by orders of magnitude any financial scam in the history of markets."

That was bad enough, but now Libor may have a twin brother. Word has leaked out that the London-based firm ICAP, the world's largest broker of interest-rate swaps, is being investigated by American authorities for behavior that sounds eerily reminiscent of the Libor mess. Regulators are looking into whether or not a small group of brokers at ICAP may have worked with up to 15 of the world's largest banks to manipulate ISDAfix, a benchmark number used around the world to calculate the prices of interest-rate swaps."

https:/politicalvelcraft.org/2015/10/08/trapped-central-banks-face-keynesian-endgame-you-never-go-f ull-krugman

I do believe greed is blinding them and they would rather throw the Tories under the bus to keep EU regulators from killing their golden goose.

What will they do with Labour in power? Trust that Corbyn & Co.will be bribeable?

That's what I mean by blind, perhaps myopic woukd be better.

You could disturb a junkie while he's shooting up, but he's not going to pay you much mind even if you tell him the house is on fire.

Neoliberal capitalism is selling itself it's own future noose, pace Marx.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Nov 16th, 2017 at 10:38:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
your link is broken

I fixed it for you

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 16th, 2017 at 03:34:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thankee kindly

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Nov 21st, 2017 at 02:22:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and you might as well wonder why people in the US keep voting GOP when it is so copletely obvious that the entire GOP exists to serve the financial and legislative interests of about 100 unbelievably rich people.

Who, right now, are trying to work out if they should be outraged that Putin has put in a counter-bid. It's not that they think that selling the US Govt to the Kremlin, as Trump has quite evidently done via Tillerson, is intrinsically wrong. Far from it, they're jealous it was done so cheaply. But they view the GOP as their toy and they want it back.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 16th, 2017 at 03:41:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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