European Tribune - Kosovo declares independence

If I was a Serbian in Bosnia, I would demand independence as soon as possible. If I were a Serbian in Serbia, I would support and facilitate it.

Wouldn't any of us do the same thing?

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 01:16:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No. I would slam my head into the wall instead or emigrate.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 01:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There's only one way the Bosnian Serbs secede, and that's if the Albanians run roughshod over Mitrovica and the north. 2,000 EU police would not be able to stop it. If that happens, the Serbs would claim they do not feel safe in the Bosnian protectorate.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:28:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

?? It sounds like you're confusing Bosnia with Kosovo. Mitrovica is in Kosovo, in its northern part. Those are Kosovo Serbs. The Bosnian Serbs who want to secede are in Republika Srpska, in Bosnia and Hercegovina.

And if you're not confusing the two, even if there's a lot of anti-Serb violence in northern Kosovo, RS would just have to watch their border with Kosovo. I just can't see Kosovo Albanians invading Bosnia.... As far as I know, the claims for secession in RS are based more on just getting away, rather than any threats of violence from the Federation side. Have there even been any threats from the Federation? My understanding was that the tensions being reported in Bosnia now are more politicians hissing at each other than anything else.

Am I the only one who keeps thinking of Star Trek when discussing Bosnia?

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:49:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, I don't have them confused.

The similarity is all about the performance of so-called peace-keeping troops.

I know the Bosnians are integrated better, but for the long haul, the creation of ethnically pure states all around Bosnia will eventually cause that alliance to split apart. The example of Mitrovica will be powerful because it will show that the EU and the West are incapable of protection. Look at Cyprus. NATO will not move militarily unless it suits its interest.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 03:27:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, so you were talking about using perceived fear as an excuse to secede, rather than real threats. Now I understand your post.

At this point, I just want whatever happens to be as peaceful as possible, be it Mitrovica staying with Kosovo, seceding and rejoining Serbia, etc.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 03:46:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Quote:
As far as I know, the claims for secession in RS are based more on just getting away, rather than any threats of violence from the Federation side.
---------
C'mon please don't try to sell this stupid story where USA generously helped Albanians just because of the treats from "federation"...none here is that naive. Let alone that Albanians wouldn't dare to try anything if USA didn't arm and trained them militarily and promised them to bombard Serbia if necessary.
Bosnian Serbs now have legitimate right to proclaim independence and not just Bosnian Serbs. Who ever is not happy with in borders now have right to go. Welcome to a new "free" world. Bosnian Serbs have not just right they are properly organized in any way to do it cause they luckily never took seriously "state" of Bosnia and Hercegovina.

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:09:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

C'mon please don't try to sell this stupid story where USA generously helped Albanians just because of the treats from "federation"

Huh?? What are you talking about? As far as I know, the Federation (you know, the other entity in BiH) never threatened the Albanians.

Upstate NY's point was that if troops can't protect Serbs in Northern Kosovo, then RS might claim that they need to secede from BiH because of some imagined "threat" from the Federation side. I had originally misunderstood him/her and thought his/her post was talking about actual threats having been made by one BiH entity toward the other. Upstate NY explained a little more and cleared it up. So I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm trying to "sell" a story that Bosnia was threatening Albanians.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:30:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh this is even better. Total misunderstanding. I am sorry I misunderstand you.
And things are actually very simple under the surface. Do not mix conflict in Bosnia and H. and conflict in Serbia in any way. These things are not comparable at all.

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:40:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What will the EU do if the Albanians run roughshod over 2,000 EU police?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:18:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Would they need to run roughshod over them? I'm a bit fuzzy on my Balkan geography, but how big an area are those 2000 peacekeepers supposed to patrol? How many people?

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:27:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what does that mean?

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 04:23:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It means I am not a natinalist and would find another explosion of nationalism around me suffocating, not contagious.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:24:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is not the recognition of the necessity of creating a new country the ultimate manifestation of nationalism?

And why, you, who were so quick to give a sanguine response to my post, should expect than Serbians humbly bow their heads? Are they different from you and me?

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are turning my words and our exchange upside down.

I don't expect anything from "Serbians". You asked if any of us would not do the same thing, and I said I would not do the same thing. (And unlike you, I don't think all individuals included under "Serbians" think the same way.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:37:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, I am turning your argument upside done. Since the transformed argument is mine - I don't pretend it is yours -, there is no dishonesty.

It is you who are putting words into my mouth: by Serbians, or Serbs, i designate the Serbian, or Serb, societies. Individuals organised around symbols. Like we, at ET.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:51:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are playing with words.

You asked:

Are they different from you and me?

You and me are clearly different. (If I was a Serbian in Bosnia, I would NOT demand independence as soon as possible.) Don't you think members of any society can be just as different?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I understand now. You were always only considering your personal view. And only your.

You are taking refuge in your individuality.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are denying Serbians' individuality.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No. That is not the point. The original point was: many among the many will not think as you do.

You should try to understand my words. I try to understand yours.

that is why I understand now that my choice of words was denying YOU your individuality (not the Serbians). But it wasn't meant to be literal. After all, I know that you are an individual. I know more of what you say than many people you know.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:20:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The original point was: many among the many will not think as you do.

If that was the point, you made it very badly. You asked us if anyone would disagree. That's categoric, not about majorities. What's more, it seems to be calling for sympathy and agreement. In light of your "taking refuge" comment, I also sense disdain for opinions other than spiteful nationalist.

But, now understanding your words, I do agree that a majority will feel like that. It is just this dynamics I fear.

I don't know where you come to this issue, but for me it is too close to home. I lived in what became Croatia, I saw it before, and I saw it after, including the ethnic-cleansed parts. And the damage in the heads, there is say the Croatian ship-boy I talked to, and asked about the ethnic cleansings, and he would justify it with the evils done by the JNA and the "Republic".

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:31:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm glad that you understand my words. As for my feelings, well, conversations by text are very bad to transmit feelings.

What we have produced along his thread was an escalade. "disdain" comes after "refuge" which comes after "y" which comes after "x" which ... which ...

In the British Navy of old, as punishment, a number of sailors used to be tied to a wheel, and each given a whip, to beat in the back of the man in front. What started with minor slashes ended always in violent whipping. Because people:

1- underestimate the pain the other person feels (a 40% difference, it is said)
2 -tend to forget why the other fellow reacted faster than the reason we beated on him

It is suggested that the reasons for that are respectively:
1- our sensors of pain detect only our pain
2 -our apparatus of reasoning can store more easily our reasons than other's.

I think we can agree that nationhood is a whip ready to fall on the back of every man, and the Balkans are a giant wheel amongst many.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

findmeaDoorIntoSummer:

In the British Navy of old, as punishment, a number of sailors used to be tied to a wheel, and each given a whip, to beat in the back of the man in front. What started with minor slashes ended always in violent whipping. Because people:

Reference? There are a number of stupidly violent punishments administered by the Royal Navy in the past. but that one I've never heard of.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:24:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am having difficulty in finding a reference. the torture was described to me in a conversation, not read in a book or article.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can't find any reference to it in Torture and democracy either.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 08:56:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well, forget the torture. The modern day experiment from which the 40% figure is derived is:

Two Eyes for an Eye: The Neuroscience of Force Escalation. Sukhwinder S. Shergill, Paul M. Bays Chris D. Frith, Daniel M. Wolpert.
Science 11 July 2003:
Vol. 301. no. 5630, p. 187

a summary is available on-line upon free registration at publication website.

--------

For a description of what is all about, without having to register, please read Daniel Gilbert.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 02:33:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The exchange of words was rather painfull, at least to me. I cannot speak about you. However, a frank exchange of words open many issues, and that opening is interesting.
----------------
How can one believe that nationhood is a valid concept in Europa 2008 A.D.?

the Social Contract is the sole legitimiser of the existence of a state.
Therefore the establishment of a social contract between a European state and a European Volk[2] is the absolute requirement for the practical abolition of nation-states in a major part of the Europe.

[1] Natural monopolies providing cheap and efficient supply of goods required for all activities (such as EDF) are everyday manifestation of the social contract.
[2] Hence the need for many politicians to avoid the creation of a european citizenship.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 02:51:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

(forgot to say it clear) this solution for eliminating the existing countries of EU is making the EU itself a bigger country.

the solution for eliminating Nations is making the social contract unnecessary.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 03:03:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Is the social contract about nations or about states?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:21:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Refuge".

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:14:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

May I ask why you WOULDN'T demand independence? They are not happy there in the false state of Bosnia and Hercegovina , they never wanted to be part of that "state", they fought war and died to brake from Bosnia & Hercegovina and they were forced to stay there...what else is needed as an argument for you?

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:25:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What argument? Maybe a nation state created without ethnic cleansing and suppression of remaining minorities.

But not even that really. As I said, I am an anti-nationalist. I wouldn't want to live in newly created ethnic-national states. And be aware that I am talking with the assumption that "I would be a Bosnian Serb", rather than prescribing anything for anyone other than me.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 03:56:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Quote:
Maybe a nation state created without ethnic cleansing and suppression of remaining minorities.
----------
That was not an option for Serbs in Bosnia unfortunately. You may remember that war in Croatia erupted previously and it was obvious that everyone is armed and Bosnian parliament proclaimed independence without Serbs. This triggered war.
In the main time while Serbs were forced out of Croatia there was not mass exodus of Croats, Muslims or even Albanians from Serbia. They still live in Serbia with "evil" Serbs.
I am not saying that there were no war crimes on Serbian side, don't get me wrong. There were crimes on all sides for those who want to see the truth. I am just saying that Serbs like others (AND WEST GAVE THIS RIGHT TO ALL OF THE OTHERS IN EX-YU) should have had right to go independently from Croatia and Bosnia. There would be NO WAR at all if it was done. Interestingly how you people can't follow this logic. There WOULD BE NO WAR.
But who ever is serious knows that this was about geo- strategic aspect. Serbs didn't want to go under USA military and CIA...they didn't want USA military bases on their soil...and they were punished and still are punished.
So it's simply fairytale ...states on Balkan were always made by war...one way or another. There will be wars yet, you can be sure ...it's a historic fact.

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:06:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In the main time while Serbs were forced out of Croatia

No, that was not in the meantime, but after Bosnian Serb forces forced out Muslims and Croats from their areas. (Also after Croatian Serb forces forced out Croats from their areas.) I have to correct that even if I agree that there were crimes on all sides.

AND WEST GAVE THIS RIGHT TO ALL OF THE OTHERS IN EX-YU

I did and do not agree with the West's support for the creation of Croatia the way they did, so I won't accept that as tit-for-tat justification for Bosnian and Croatian Serb claims, either. Two wrongs don't make one right.

...states on Balkan were always made by war

That's my point. Therefore I oppose the creation of any new micro-ethnic-state in onetime Yugoslavia. Be them Kosovo or RSK.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:15:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But you're not a Bosnian Serb - you're a Hungarian with family ties in Slovakia and having lived in Germany and Croatia among other places.

While we're at it, vbo isn't a Bosnian Serb either. I don't think any of could be sure of how we would have reacted had we been living in Bosnia in the mid-90's, or had we been Bosnian Serbs living there or elsewhere.

I can argue until I'm red in the face about what I would do or feel if I were, say, a Basque speaker in Navarra, but I am neither a Basque speaker nor have I ever lived in Navarra.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:27:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, probably most of those actual Bosnian Serbs who would have thought like me here in my own reality have emigrated already.

I am again reminded of the Bosnian hippie hitch-hiker, who told of having been a hippie before the war and after, but a soldier in-between, and will turn an emigrant joining friends in Paris if things blow up again, which he expected as soon as foreign troops pull out (but this was a decade ago).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 07:00:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Have you been in an analogous situation of having to choose whether to humbly bow your head?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:29:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No. My fear, and I don't know if this is something that could really happen, but it just occurred to me and is alarming me, is that RS independence could potentially destabilize Croatia, again, if not from within, from those without who might be looking to take Krajina/Eastern Slavonia back. Supporting RS independence and absorbing it into Serbia would embolden the Radicals and anyone who still believes in creating "Greater Serbia," IMHO.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:26:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I thought the Serbs were completely ethnically cleansed from the Krajina? Did they somehow come back?

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:29:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some did come back, and IIRC Slavonia wasn't as completely cleansed as Western Krajina.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Serbs still live in Croatia. What the exact breakdown/percent in each area is or how many who were pushed out/who fled have returned to their homes, I don't know.

Remember though, I said if not from within, from without. My fear is that some who were either pushed out and who are highly nationalist, or who have never been there but support the idea of GS, could become emboldened by a declaration of independence from RS.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:38:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd imagine a quid pro quo instead. It's the same quid pro quo of Dayton. Milosevic ordered a standown before Operation Storm, essentially selling the Krajina Serbs for the Dayton plan and the Bosnian Serbs. An agreement which looked very much like the breakdown of Vance-Owen.

I'd bet the Serbs would have sold Kosovo yesterday in a land swap elsewhere.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 03:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe they could have even done it if they could keep the areas around Mitrovica.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:31:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Listen, support a movement for the independence of Serbs in Bosnia is not necessarily trying another war.
It is just a political action.

Everyone knows there was a war there. Their inhabitants first of all. Who would want a war? They?

This declaration of independence is just another play in a long game.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 04:42:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh stop that false story about "Great Serbia".For your information Serbia seems to be smaller then ever nowadays...

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 01:29:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Again, why are you accusing me of telling stories, this time about "Greater Serbia"? There are still people who believe it should exist (and I'm not one of them, by the way); I said if RS secedes from BiH, Serbia should not absorb them as those who have this idea of GS in their heads could take that as permission to try to grab Krajina/Eastern Slavonia, thus starting up yet another war.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 04:37:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Kosovo will in not so distant future be a part of Great Albania. How do you feel about that?
And about Krajina/Eastern Slavonia, ETHNIC CLEANSING HAS BEEN FINISHED THERE BY CROATIA and her allies so you don't have to worry. There are no Serbs there to fight.

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 05:21:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And Greater Romania, and Greater Hungaria, and Greater Bulgaria, and...

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:33:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I understand what you both mean. Theoretically who would want pure national state (even if it's possible)? But most of European states are national states with few minorities so reality is something else comparing to what we may wish for.
Even bloody USA and Australia are trying to make "nation" and keep telling their citizens they should forget where they are coming from. This is not an ideal world...not at all...And you just made one more national "state"...Kosovo. So how is this different from what Serbs wanted for them selves? And also Serbs still want Kosovo in their borders together with Albanian population. Except under Milosevic Albanians had more rights in Serbia then many minorities have in Europe on this day...

by vbo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:58:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Milosevic did suppress the autonomy of Kosovo and Vojvodina, if I remember correctly.

On the rest, I can only say what I said in another comment: that way lies madness. Weĺl soon be commemorating the 100th anniversary of WWI and the disintegration of Austria-Hungary, and the successor states seem to still be itching to ethnically cleanse their border regions and grab some land if they can in the process. They even had pretty good multinational and multiethnic states going in Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia but they broke them up. And I'm supposed to feel responsible for that dynamic?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 07:42:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Despite the caveats in my other comments, I wouldn't, just like DoDo. That way lies madness.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:41:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 9)

Exactly my feelings. The seeds for destabilization extending way beyond the Balkans, and decades into the future are being sown today. And i really hope that I'm wrong about this.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 12:48:28 PM EST

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 9)

I think European support for Kosovo's independence is sheer madness! In particular and closest to home, I'm absolutely FURIOUS at the way Italy has lined up with the US/UK/GER/FR on this - we're close enough, Balkan-involved enough, have enough sense-of-history etc etc to know better, practically every serious article/report I've read in this country including on defence forums is queasy-to-put-it-mildly on chain-reaction consequences both short-term and longer-term so WHY is Italy-too backing this dangerous idiocy? If the Balkans explode again we'll be in it up to our necks one way or another - even from the most crudely self-interested POV no question that consequent-conflict refugee-flows, provision of peacekeepers, aid etcetc will end up costing us a packet ... so why provoke fate?

Take a look at this opinion-polls on Kosovan independence in Corriere della Sera -

Will the independence of Kosovo threaten stability in the Balkans? (14th Feb.)
Yes: 66.4%
No: 33.6%

So the only rational explanation I can find for Italy pursuing a national policy so out of line with both national brain-knowledge and national gut-instinct is that this "alignment" performance on its part is 1) a sop consisting of "showing a face of unity" to counterbalance Western(TM) disapproval of Italian thin-ice ranks-breaking re non-hostile relations with Iran, Hizbollah and Hamas ... plus 2) some form of unmentionable behind-the-scenes calculation regarding preservation of Italy's weird n' scraggy lil' "special relationship" with pet ugly-duckling Albania?

Yech! :-(

"Ignoring moralities is always undesirable, but doing so systematically is really worrisome." Mohammed Khatami

by eternalcityblues (parvati_roma aaaat libero.it) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 03:28:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It is more than that. it is a demonstration that small countries in Europe are prey, and the European Union is a joke.

Suppose that Germany and other countries stated their opposition to the declaration of independence. That would certainly open the way to the entrance of Serbia to the EU.
That would mean full opening their markets to products from Germany et al. But no, Serebia must be on her knees; cut a little here and cut a little there.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:11:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If one wants a continent without borders, with peaceful coexistence among different people, why creating another?

(it may look ridiculous that one replies to himself, but i am just adding a sentence which comes close to the kernel of the issue.)

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:26:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The problem occurred in 1999.

After Rambouillet, this was the only possible result.

Kosovo is punishment to the Serbs for Bosnia.

There's no other way around it.

The fighting in Kosovo never needed to happen. Peace was in the offing. The EU and NATO chose the Kosovo Albanian side in 1999. Everything that came after is inevitability. The idea that Kosovo could exist inside Serbia is almost preposterous. A war is SURE to happen if the Albanians didn't get Kosovo, and that war would suck in Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro, maybe even Albania.

That's why this is happening. They are choosing the possibility of trouble over certain trouble.

Unfortunately, our diplomats made this mess themselves, but they don't have the means to clean it up. In many ways, Kosovo was prelude to Iraq.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 5)

A war is SURE to happen if the Albanians didn't get Kosovo

Actually the "realistic" alternatives were there: a parition of Kosovo, in which the Northern tip of Kosovo remained in Serbia, was feasible but for the fact that the Kosovo Albanian side had no incentive to negotiate as it knew that the West would back up full independence without any need to make any territorial sacrifices.

Also it would be conceivable under different circumstances that a general peripheral agreement could be reached, that would include Bosnia, and the whole W.Balkans, guaranteeing among other things the free return of all refugees and funds for return or relocation (a vastly better allocation of EU money than the current situation)...

BTW I'm not sure how adamant Greece will be regarding the recognition of Kosovo. There is talk that Greece has very good relations with the Albanian parties in the Republic of Macedonia and given that for some bizzare reason the issue of our Northern Neighbour's name is seen as a major national threat, there might be some sort of quid pro quo there - although given Turkish occupation of N. Cyprus that would be suicidal IMHO.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 07:01:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's one thing I never quite understood (none / 1)

Just to go completely off a tangent, why does Greece have a problem with Macedonia? Is it just purile posturing, or is there a point buried somewhere that I fail to grasp?

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 07:06:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's one thing I never quite understood (4.00 / 2)

Thessaloniki is in Greek Macedonia. There's some fear that the Yugoslavian one may some day claim some of the Greek one. I've no idea if there's any real foundation to these fears.

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 07:10:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's one thing I never quite understood (4.00 / 6)

It's 90% posturing and 10% substance. There was a nationalist frenzy in the 1990s (government induced but also some sort post-cold war national panic) regarding the fact that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia wanted to be known as Republic of Macedonia - this led to a very widespread (and toxic) nationalist discourse that has made it very costly politically for any Greek government to accept even a compound name for RoM (i.e. Northern Macedonia, Upper Macedonia, New Macedonia).

However, there are some marginal real issues here, minor ones that could be settled with some goodwill, such as irredentism in the RoM (a political minority but firmly entrenched in school curricula and public discourse there) and product names (all things exported as "Macedonian" from Greece, or public institutions would be forced to change their name if there is no other arrangement).

Both of these issues could be settled by no more that a month's sincere discussions, and some sort of arbitration from the EU - but positions are entrenched now and both countries will have a hard time bargaining... So the whole thing degenerates into discussing the "nationality" of Alexander the Great instead...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 07:38:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's one thing I never quite understood (none / 0)

Thanks for the clarification.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 07:43:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's one thing I never quite understood (4.00 / 5)

When Oliver Stone's Alexander came out, there were endless arguments about Alexander's nationality and Macedonian heritage on the Internet Movie Database disussion boards. These arguments in turn degenerated into online fistfights between Greek and FYROM nationalists -- a Greek would post an inpenetrably dense chunk from a 'historical' essay lifted from a propaganda website (with a name like macedoniafacts.com or macedoniatruth.org), followed by an FYR-Macedonian doing likewise (also from websites with names like macedoniafacts.com or macedoniatruth.org), repeated ad nauseum.

The people posting these screeds actually thought that they could change peoples' opinions this way, when for outsiders it was a perfect hall of mirrors of fanatical nationalism and mythologised history, each side asserting that their people had lived in Macedonia in unbroken historical continuity for thousands of years while the other lot were recent interlopers, with everything the same on both sides except for the names...

by Gag Halfrunt on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 08:48:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's one thing I never quite understood (4.00 / 6)

Believe it or not, it gets much worse than mythologized history. So much of the problem is recent.

You have Greeks in the Macedonia region who are themselves refugees from either the Ottoman Empire or the Soviet Union. They moved en masse to the region while at the same time Pomaks and Bulgars and Slav speaking Greeks were moved out (for many reasons, losses from Balkan Wars, siding with the Nazis, or also aiding the Communists for the Greek civil war). Karaskidou's book Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood does a pretty good job of showing the ethnic mix over the last century in this area. Outside of Greece, Albanians and Macedonians are aggrieved for land losses. Meanwhile, inside of Greece, you have Greeks aggrieved for their own land losses elsewhere. Plus, ww2 and the civil war were not only "cause" for expulsion of other ethnic groups, but a good number of Greeks as well (such as my uncle, a 12 year old drafted into the ranks of the guerillas, he lived in the Eastern Bloc up until the early 1990s). This is why Greek sentiment is so adamant about the Greek part of Macedonia. It's a rather recent addition to Greece, and it was gained through much bloodshed in Balkan Wars, WW2 (against Germany, Bulgaria, Albania, Italy, 1 million Greeks died), and the Civil War.

In Macedonia, meanwhile, you have a national crisis right now because former Macedonian Presidents have become Bulgarian citizens and moved to Bulgaria, as have a great many young people, which further fuels Bulgarian arguments that Macedonians are simply Bulgarians converted to a national mythology by Tito. Ultimately, I think all this mixing speaks to our tenuous identities and the bankruptcy of romantic nationalism. Let them call themselves whatever they wish, whoever they think they are, but maybe to avoid future bloodshed a distinction could be made between Greek Macedonia and whatever. New Macedonia as the US recently proposed?

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 09:49:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Way beyond, as in Northern Cyprus, Macedonia, Moldova, Transdnistria, Nagorno-Karabakh, North and South Ossetia, Abkhazia... as well as Northern Ireland, the Basque country, Corsica, and then Crimea, Kaliningrad, Karelia... am I forgetting anything?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:55:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Friesland.

by Nomad on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 08:21:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Alto Adige, Scotland, Wales, Palestine, Vermont...

If you enter Italy at Brennero on the local road (not the highway), the last thing you see in Austria is a sign that reads

Südtirol ist nicht Italien

by gk (g k quattro due due sette "at" gmail.com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 09:30:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I did leave out the Padania and Veneto as well.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:06:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I could add South Slovakia and Transsylvania, but I think those fears are about as much warranted as those concerning Brittany or the Crimean Tatars. Or what about Moravia.

For fun's sake, we could add Bavaria...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:51:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 6)

I decided long ago that macho nationalism and clan loyalties are being manipulated for nefarious purposes. Everywhere you look there are petty resentments and legitimate fears and it becomes difficult to sort out truth from lie, legitimate grievance from historical contrivance.

My view is that it is the job of peace-keepers not to interfere in the process of fracturing which will happen anyway. Rather it is their job to ensure that the safety and prosperity of all is preserved as much as possible, intervening only when the guns come out. At which point intervention should be overwhelming but limited.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 01:53:42 PM EST

I almost see deliberate destabilization of multiple regions on the part of world powers, but I'm told that's too conspiratorial.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:56:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The countries supporting this (4.00 / 9)

don't know what they've done.

This reminds me of a comment one of my teachers made a few years ago about how the Vietnam War was really just another battle in a thousand-year-long war between China and Vietnam, and that we had basically barged in without fully understanding what was going on.

I can't state an opinion about Kosovo's independence either way. There's too much history and emotion behind it, and both sides are guilty of bloodshed and mayhem. No one can really claim "innocent" status. Vbo is right, maybe in the long run this will turn out to be for the best, but for now every country supporting Kosovo's claim is setting a precedent, which I think they don't quite understand, for anyone to secede. Whether a particular area's secession is good or bad depends on the area/country it wants to leave, but supporting countries have just given the go-ahead for everyone to try.

They have no claim for stopping Republika Srpska now, and that will be a real mess both politically and geographically (RS is divided in two, surrounds two little Federation enclaves, and then there's Brčko, a city that technically belongs to both RS and the Federation, map here, RS in red, Federation in blue, Brčko in minty green). RS's government has claimed they won't seek independence, but there are movements within RS that given time have the potential to gather energy.

</rant>

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 02:08:00 PM EST

Re: The countries supporting this (4.00 / 2)

I find "Kosovo independence" has a nasty smell, for the reason I outlined below.

What is also stinky is the European Union recognizing this "independence" which actually cheapens European values and what they are supposed to mean!

by euamerican on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:28:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 7)

I really have mixed opinions about "Kosovo independence." I really have no taste for a declaration of "independence" when the minority population of Kosovar Serbs continue to be denied free movement, cultural rights and equality that the majority Albanian population enjoy. There is some nasty smell about this kind of "independence" when the minority population continue to be oppressed and under threat.

What is also disturbing is that the European Union intends to "recognize" the "new state of Kosovo." It seems to me that the Kosovar Albanian majority have not learned what European values are and the they have a long way to go before they can, legitimately, be recognized for anything "European." It is un-European to drive your neighbors out of their homes, burn their churches, and then deny them freedom of movement so they are confined to guarded enclaves. The Kosovar Albanians do not make good Europeans yet, and we should hold recognition of "Kosovo" until some measure of human rights and human dignity is restored to the Serbian minority, otherwise "European values" mean nothing.

The treatment of Serbia reminds me of the treatment of Germany after World War One. The reparations to France and the conditions of the Versailles Treaty were viewed as unfair. This perception of unfairness by Germans was never addressed and we ended up with the slaughter of millions in WWII. Likewise, the ultra nationalists in Serbian wax and wane according to how the rest of Europe views Serbia and how much Serbia is integrated into Europe. This "Kosovo independence" will, no doubt, cause the ultra nationalists in Serbia to once again rise to power.

Last, those in Serbia that risk their lives to create "European Serbia" have been left out in the cold because of constant demands to produce indited war criminals that cannot be located or might even be dead. Zoran Djindjic was murdered in 2003 in the name of the European Serbia dream. There is a European Serbia and Serbia must not be left in the "EU losers club." The only answer to "Kosovo independence" is fast track Union membership for Serbia. There is no other peaceful solution but acquis communautaire in steroids for European Serbia.

The memory of brave Europeans like Zoran Djindjic demands nothing less...

by euamerican on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:26:23 PM EST

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 7)

There is not a little hypocrisy in the decision to recognize Kosovo and ignore Serbia's protests, in that everyone tried for years to get Milosević and friends to follow the law. To listen to the law. Now the U.S. and certain members of the EU are blatantly ignoring UNSC 1244, which honors territorial integrity in Serbia and despite negotiations is still valid.

The more I think about this the angrier I become, because if we are not going to honor this UN resolution, why should anyone honor any other UN resolution? What the hell was the point of all the work that went into the resolution and negotiations? Serbia and Kosovo may have to be continually sent to separate corners of the ring, and Kosovo may have eventually ended up independent anyway, but dear god today's decision was really screwed up. This has really set a difficult precedent.

Now I'm thinking of all the secessionist movements in the U.S. Does anyone else think that as small and on-the-fringe as they are, recognizing Kosovo's independence today has just given them more legitimacy?

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:50:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I read that beyond Greece and Cyprus, Slovakia signalled they won't recognise Kosovo. I wonder what Romania will do.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 05:59:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't know about Romania. It just occurred to me, however, that for all my complaining, the former Yugoslav republics themselves probably have no choice but to recognize Kosovo since they had broken away as well.

Ugh. I can't think straight about this anymore....

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:28:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, the BBC is reporting Romania doesn't support it.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:32:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They list Romania as definitely opposed, but not Spain and Greece? In-te-rest-ing.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Romania has plenty of reason to be opposed: they have Transylvania, Moldova and Transdnistria to worry about.

As do Spain (Basque country, Catalonia, Galicia, Ceuta and Melilla, the Canary Islands, Olivenza...) and Greece (Northern Cyprus, Macedonia), of course.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 06:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Greece has Northern Cyprus and Western Thrace, where in one district (of three) the Moslem minority (dominantly turkish) is actually a majority and in another it's 50-50 with the Greek population.

In Macedonia there is no significant area in which seperatist Macedonian Slavs are even a substantial minority, let alone a majority.

Note also that various areas in S. Albania have a Greek majority/significant minority (despite the fact that most of them left for Greece they retain citizenship and property there). Although the only people advocating seccession of "Northern Epirus" (as it is called in Greece) are a few ultranationalist wingnuts, given the new situation that has developed, I'm betting on their resurgence...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:12:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Reports say Romania was opposed alongside Blgaria, but it's not clear to me that theirs was a categoric opposition.

From the words of those two IDIOTS the German foreign minister and the CDU's foreign policy guy, it appears the pro-independence majority in the Council wants to push the minority to also agree so that there is EU unity on the matter.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:34:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

::Sigh::

Sometimes secession can be good. After all, my own country seceded from England in 1776. In Kosovo's case, I think at the very least, the timing was quite bad.

DoDo, where in what-would-become-Croatia were you and when? I didn't realize you had actually lived there.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:38:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A looong time ago, end of seventies. Six months in Obrovac, which was right at the border of the Krajinas, and two years in Zadar. Returned a number of times. I think my parents still have contact with the landlords.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:42:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope they got through the war alright.

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:47:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes. They sent their children to Australia. Zadar itself didn't receive much in terms of warfare, only three days of shelling (and the blowing up of the homes of Serbians after the cleansing of the Krajinas), during which an unexploded shell got stuck in their wall. (The hole was still unrepaired when we first visited after the war.)

We also had one post-war greeting card exchange with a Bosnian-Muslim family from the Croatian-Bosnian border, who once pre-war gave us shelter on a travel; how they made it, I'd be curious.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What is Germany's game in the Balkans? They also were the first to recognize Croatian independence.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 07:02:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I really don't know if, overall, there is more to it than a mistaken liberation ideology and even more mistaken sense of responsibility; plus, in the case of the government's foreign policy elites, mad blind naive Atlanticism. (I wonder what parallels there could be in Germany to the Slovenian case in the leak discussed in melo's first link.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 07:08:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's the old alliance. Except Italy used to be included.

Italy, Austria, Germany and a huge chunk of the ex-Yugoslavia.

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:27:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Germany had not much to say on the Western Balkans until WWII: that was the Habsburg Monarchy's backyard. They had more influence on the Eastern Balkans (Ottoman Empire, Bulgaria, Romania all building best relations, including dynastic ones, with Prussia.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 19th, 2008 at 11:55:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I would imagine that you'll find that Greece will be a part of the last group that recognizes.

Spain and Slovakia have been a lot more hardline about it. Greece has said that it will recognize eventually.

Greece and Serbia had a falling out over post-Milosevic squabbles, and also Serbia recognized Macedonia as Macedonia.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 10:49:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am also curious about Spain's position.

France would also be interesting, would it not be led by a complete foreign-policy idiot.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I thought Spain was against it? Did I miss something?

"You can't be a successful crook with a dishonest face, now, can you?" -The Fourth Doctor

by lychee (lychee9393 A yahoo D com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

(Checking)

No, I did miss it. Indeed Spain declared it's opposition, too.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:09:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Also checked German media, and all but the Left Party representative is talking bullshit...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:12:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, Spain is against independence.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 06:09:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kosovo declares independence (4.00 / 5)

Various international positions and declarations here:

European Union countries have been split on Kosovo's act. Its four major member nations, Britain, France, Germany and Italy, along with the United States, were expected Monday to formally recognize Kosovo's independence from Serbia, while Cyprus, Greece, Romania, Slovakia and Spain oppose recognizing Kosovo's move, at least in the short term for fear that it would become a dangerous precedent for other separatist movements. Still others like Malta and Portugal proposed that Kosovo's future be decided at the UN Security Council.

Some of the declarations agin' it:

Russia of course - strong on sarcasm:

Russia condemned Kosovo's proclamation, and demanded an urgent UN Security Council meeting on the issue, the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
"We expect the UN Mission in Kosovo and NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR) will take immediate action to fulfill their mandates as authorized by the UN Security Council, including voiding the decisions of the Pristina local government and adopting severe administrative measures against them," said the statement.

Spain - handwringing:

The Spanish government on Sunday expressed its opposition to Kosovo's independence, saying it is beyond international laws for Kosovo to unilaterally declare its separation from Serbia.
It also said the declaration would harm peace in the Balkan region, setting a dangerous precedent for regions where separatism exits.

Czech Republic:

Czech President Vaclav Klaus warned Sunday that Kosovo's independence could trigger a domino effect in other European countries.
"Some parties in other states could realize that they do not feel completely at ease within a big state in which they are now," Klaus said in a television interview.
Czech Foreign Ministry spokesman Zuzana Opletalova said the ministry has taken note of Kosovo's declaration of independence, but it is up to the EU to adopt a joint position regarding the recognition of the independence.

(...i.e. Czechs not recognising it but kinda-coyly hiding their opposition behind that "it's up to the EU" feint, fact being they know the EU is sharply divided so won't/can't recognise Kosovo - only "joint EU position" on this issue being usual smarmy statement saying "the EU calls on all parties to show moderation and restraint"... lol! )

Slovakia:

The Slovak Foreign Ministry said on Sunday that it will not recognize Kosovo as an independent state for now. It will consider its next steps according to further developments and measures international organizations would take, the ministry said.

Slightly more coldly-formal version of the Czech statement??

...

North-Seas contingent sounds unenthusiastic...???

The German government has yet to decide whether it would recognize an officially independent Kosovo.
(...)
The Netherlands and Sweden have both expressed caution over Kosovo's independence. Both countries said they will not decide whether to recognize the independence of Kosovo until they studied the whole situation carefully.
In Stockholm, Norway's Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere called all parties to do their utmost to maintain calm and order in and around Kosovo.
"Throughout the status negotiations, Norway has stressed the importance of finding a solution both parties could agree to and that thus also could lead to a new UN Security Council resolution. It is deeply regrettable that this has not been possible," Stoere said in a statement.

Only ones actually clapping seem to be Albania USA UK and France?

"Ignoring moralities is always undesirable, but doing so systematically is really worrisome." Mohammed Khatami

by eternalcityblues (parvati_roma aaaat libero.it) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:10:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Italy seems to be keeping very quiet so far, indeed is even muter than pre-electorally justifiable. However, Cuba's Prensa Latina put it in the anti-recognition camp... misunderstanding or scoop??? Can't find a trace of a position-statement in the Italian papers though, which is kinda-weird in itself -- so my bet is it's so queasy+conflicted on this issue it's silently tagging along in Germany's wake... they may well both band up with the Netherlands and Scandinavians by saying they're-with-the-EU but the-EU-should-pause-for-reflection-n'-search-for-unity?

"Ignoring moralities is always undesirable, but doing so systematically is really worrisome." Mohammed Khatami

by eternalcityblues (parvati_roma aaaat libero.it) on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 07:47:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The lack of recognition from some countries--say, Sweden--is purposeful as a safeguard against Albanian forays into Northern Kosovo. The EU wants to keep using the carrot and stick approach.

I don't know why though since eventually the Serbs will either split off the north or leave it altogether.

Let's face it. The international community and the Albanians have been arguing, "We can't live with Serbia." I fail to see how that logic doesn't also apply to Serbs in Kosovo.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2008 at 10:54:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One has to take the declarations of "first studying the situation" with great cynism. It's not like the emergence of this situation wasn't to be expected, and it strains credulity that the foreign ministries didn't have well-prepared scenarios. I think these declarations are meant to play for time.

i.e. Czechs not recognising it but kinda-coyly hiding their opposition behind that "it's up to the EU" feint

I don't know. Even if from the same party, the President and the government aren't the same thing. It may be that Klaus is paranoid about a re-emergence of the Sudeten-German question, or even the appearance of Moravian separatism out of thin air, while the government is just being bashful in its Atlanticism.

Slovakia: ... Slightly more coldly-formal version of the Czech statement??

In Slovakia's case, I think diplomatic language is only meant to leave wiggle room. The nationalist-dominated Slovakian government's concern is a break-away of ethnic-Hungarian-majority areas in the South of the country.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 04:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have decidedly mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, in principle I support the right of people to secede from a country whose government they find onerous.

On the other hand, I have a decidedly ominous feeling about revising borders on the Balkans.

On the third hand, I think that in the long run it would be rather hard to keep Kosova in Serbia.

On the fourth hand, I think that the Union has been entirely too high-handed in this matter. If the Serbs and Russians are angry about this - well, it's hard to blame them.

- Jake

Ceterum censeo Chicago esse delendam

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2008 at 04:43:14 AM EST