Maieutics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Maieutics is a complex procedure of research introduced by Socrates, embracing the Socratic method in its widest sense. It is based on the idea that the truth is latent in the mind of every human being due to his innate reason but has to be "given birth" by answering questions (or problems) intelligently proposed.
If I read Maieutics with a squint I can see "me aiutics"...
(And there is a serious idea in my head--I must have read Migeru's--for the "first book", definitely I think we would need the PR/Advertising directional energy--I'm thinking of Herr Triloqvist again--)
Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
Heh...here's George Carlin.
Douglas Adams on Democracy
[An extraterrestrial robot and spaceship has just landed on earth. The robot steps out of the spaceship...] "I come in peace," it said, adding after a long moment of further grinding, "take me to your Lizard." Ford Prefect, of course, had an explanation for this, as he sat with Arthur and watched the nonstop frenetic news reports on television, none of which had anything to say other than to record that the thing had done this amount of damage which was valued at that amount of billions of pounds and had killed this totally other number of people, and then say it again, because the robot was doing nothing more than standing there, swaying very slightly, and emitting short incomprehensible error messages. "It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..." "You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?" "No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like to straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people." "Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy." "I did," said ford. "It is." "So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?" "It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want." "You mean they actually vote for the lizards?" "Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course." "But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?" "Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?" "What?" "I said," said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, "have you got any gin?" "I'll look. Tell me about the lizards." Ford shrugged again. "Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happened to them," he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it."
"I come in peace," it said, adding after a long moment of further grinding, "take me to your Lizard."
Ford Prefect, of course, had an explanation for this, as he sat with Arthur and watched the nonstop frenetic news reports on television, none of which had anything to say other than to record that the thing had done this amount of damage which was valued at that amount of billions of pounds and had killed this totally other number of people, and then say it again, because the robot was doing nothing more than standing there, swaying very slightly, and emitting short incomprehensible error messages.
"It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like to straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"
"What?"
"I said," said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, "have you got any gin?"
"I'll look. Tell me about the lizards."
Ford shrugged again.
"Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happened to them," he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it."
I'm going to propose a specific enterprise later this coming week involving real estate and organized along lines that Chris Cook might approve. So - I probably won't get directly involved in your project, but I certainly support the idea. If you and others get something along this line going, though, I would like to help in some manner.
You mention the Milo brand tangentially - for an umbrella organization? If you - and others - want to get such an LLC in place, I definitely want to be involved in that project.
I guess that the upshot for me is that I cannot be sure that you are serious about your proposal. Are you? paul spencer
I certainly am--or was, but the lack of responses to it makes me think that either:
a) I am not the person to propose it
and/or
b) now is not the time
c) this is not (in) ET's interest
I know I took you and Chris's and Sven's names a bit in vain--I sorta wanted to see a £120 (suggested by Chris as the cost for setting up an LLP in the UK) "money where your mouth is" gesture re an LLP.
I particularly like the idea of the Milo Minderbinder Memorial LLP because it would specifically NOT be ET LLP, because it has humour in its essence but also a humour that requires a level of interest, knowledge and critical distance to get...I even like Minderbender but thought maybe that would be an offshoot of the original LLP--for the more crazy projecs.
But...I can't do anything. I can't set up an LLP (no knowledge), I can't find out about printing costs--well, I could but it would be me phoning a company and I'm sure at least one person here at ET has more "in" to the process than this.
So--I wanted the diary to be humorous (Ker....splunk...heh!), so maybe my attempt killed the idea, or the idea just doesn't interest people here (a think tank that doesn't publish documents?)...I dunno, I think there's a danger (at least for me) that ET becomes a "place to gather and chat" on the net, sorta like a group of friends at the pub--over time, old ones disappear new ones turn up, but...I've got a pub near my house for that. I was hoping--all those people here I'd like to meet, but jetting around Europe while talking about restructuring its entire economic base (or maybe that of the world)....ach...I thought an "edit-to-see-what-we-get" idea might work...I think it still will, and I expect Migeru will do just so with the Socratic economics series--which is where the idea was born in my head--in italian, hmmm--I mean, maybe I'm the only one that thinks a small book (a slim volume with an elegant cover (I was thinking along the lines of Faber & Faber:
...though I also think the idea of an ET photo as a cover design, with simple text, something like:
TITLE
...and then I couldn't decide, You'd need the Milo Minderbinder LLP on the spine, and the first page would say (and only this:)
"The following text(s) originally appeared at eurotrib.com, where they can still be found (along with accompanying articles. The complete text is freely available as a .pdf"
That kinda thing.
But...it's a no go if we can't find out a basic price, which means contacting printers or paper manufacturers, and for some reason I thought Sven might have contacts in those areas, that he could throw out a rough number (I was guessing £20 for a book--with two free copies--would cover it. I was also guessing that a well-produced book would have, say, 50 guaranteed buyers here at ET, so that's £1,000 start-up money.
But....so....
I grabbed your name because you came up with the most excellent name of the LLP! Plus, you are my prefered candidate for president, plus you have run things in the past....etc...so yeah! I am both serious and unserious (in the way maybe that Sven sees no difference between work and pleasure...so, hmmm).
I really would like Chris to set up the LLP. I mean, I think until this beast--it lives!
Until it's built I don't think any of us can really give it a good drive around. So far it's an idea, so if ET LLP Thonk Tink etc. is the idea, fine. I had a different one, one that I could participate in (I would be interested in editing a book or two--I can see that 4-6% generating me some income in the medium term...)
And no one commented on the 4-6% aspect, so I must have explained it wrong (perceptions, dear boy, sayeth the silent Sven), but I thought just the idea of setting up a members-driven modern-style post-deficit-capital company might be interesting as an exercise if nothing else.
I thought: surely a book of Jerome's essays is a necessary object to produce.
But, I dunno, no recommends, no comments, no readers, so...okay...sorta put me right off I have to say (Readers: "Yes, that is the sensation!")--though I think that's just me thinking "My baby, you are so beautiful!" and showing the photos and....no interest, no one looks at the photos of my baby--our baby!
So, there's no baby, just a photo. I'd like Chris to create this wee thing and then I would like to get involved in writing (with mucho humour, oh yes) the Milo Minderbinder Memorial LLP articles of Incorporation....heh...I know this is a minority interest but when I realised I was in a minority of two (me and Chris! And he hasn't said anything of the yay/nay type re: "Actually creating this thing", so that's still up in the air...)
Ach! Paul! You dragged this comment out of me, I hope it has in some way shed light on whatever is lurking here.
I agree with paul that since rg is something of the "ET court jester" (Tarot card, please rg?) it can sometimes be difficult to give his serious propositions such as this the attention they deserve.
Seriously, though, Chris, if that's all it takes I'll post you a twenty tonight--if you can get it created. Then, once it exists, all conversations become more...intriguingly realisable.
If there are only three of us, but nevertheless MMM LLP exists, then I would be motivated to hunt through ET for a potential "first book" project, a slim volume (no more than 100 pages is what I'm thinking). agreed as per the diary above, only with all the complications included...
The high humour I espy (in the HST sense) is that many potential readers (e.g. of Migeru's collaborative book...if he and his collaborators are willing to work with MMM LLP of course...or even become members...and why should they? [I don't know, of course--but with an "actually existing" MMM LLP...heh...])...yes, many potential buyers of MMM LLP products won't have the first idea who Milo Minderbinder is; and those that do should see that "wry" is the word...
So, I'm in for start up cash--can we find a third party to get bring MMM LLP to life? (Paul I hope! But are there others? If we are five, then starting costs drop to £4; ten and it's £2 each...and then the LLP will exist and its various (strange!) businesses (the new way--future model! Etc...) can begin.
(For the heavily serious among us, I would imagine investments in Renewable Energy projects of various types would be front-runners for MMM LLP resources)
(and, hey, seeing as how I'm painting the picture instead of you, I was thinking of maybe charging a fee of £6.68, but I'll leave that to you to decide, Chris! Heh! Hope you is enjoying...)
(The part I would find most humorous is if/when MMM LLP started generating 4-6% all over the place, building and growing in strange and wonderful ways... But I would like to see a big discussion about that 4-6% part as that's an area I really know nothing at all about...anyways, ...heh...it's a slow morning at work...I could be hunting up books from the ET archive, but...I need collaboration, I need a workers'...council...co-operative...hmmm...
[The] actual existence [of workers' councils] has as yet been no more than a brief sketch, quickly opposed and defeated by various defensive forces of class society, among which their own false consciousness must often be included. Pannekoek rightly insisted that choosing the power of workers' Councils "poses problems" rather than providing a solution. Yet it is precisely in this power where the problems of the proletarian revolution can find their real solution. This is where the objective conditions of historical consciousness are reunited. This is where direct active communication is realized, where specialization, hierarchy and separation end, where the existing conditions have been transformed "into conditions of unity." Here the proletarian subject can emerge from her or his struggle against con- templation: his or her consciousness is equal to the practical organization which it undertakes because this consciousness is itself inseparable from coherent intervention in history.
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/debord/society.htm
Leur existence effective n'a encore été qu'une brève ébauche, aussitôt combattue et vaincue par différentes forces de défense de la société de classes, parmi lesquelles il faut souvent compter leur propre fausse conscience. Pannekock insistait justement sur le fait que le choix d'un pouvoir des Conseils ouvriers «propose des problèmes» plutôt qu'il n'apporte une solution. Mais ce pouvoir est précisément le lieu où les problèmes de la révolution du prolétariat peuvent trouver leur vraie solution. C'est le lieu où les conditions objectives de la conscience historique sont réunies ; la réalisation de la communication directe active, où finissent la spécialisation, la hiérarchie et la séparation, où les conditions existantes ont été transformées «en condition d'unité». Ici le sujet prolétarien peut émerger de sa lutte contre la contemplation : sa conscience est gale à l'organisation pratique qu'elle s'est donnée, car cette conscience même est inséparable de l'intervention cohérente dans l'histoire.
http://sami.is.free.fr/Oeuvres/debord_societe_spectacle_1.html
(My emphasis--because maybe I have the soul of a prole)
And (as Workers' Councils figured largely in DoDo's excellent history of The Hungarian Revolution) I see the DoDo book project as most realisable by the LLP, certainly as a wonderful introduction--indeed, "An Introduction To..." could be an over-arching concept for the first set of books....etc...etc... (like I said, it's a slow day at work...) Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
Only one (slight, I hope) hindrance, and that is time. I work, too, though 'retirement' is imminent. A friend of mine, Steve Nieman, is preparing to change his aircraft-ownership "co-op" to an LLC along the lines of Chris' suggestions. I will team up with Steve to do a 'two-fer'. I'll predict that it will take several months to get the MMM LLC part done.
I propose to make it a Washington state corporation as a starting point. If that makes things difficult in any way for potential European participants, we can look into a separate organization there.
The book cover part intrigues me, too - reminds me of the cover art for many of the 'underground' newspapers of the late '60s. In Austin we published The Rag, and a sometimes-ex-pat-in-France named Jim Franklin specialized in an armadillo motif. Great fun. paul spencer
I'll buy this round, if you like.
A basic idea (if I've understood correctly, big IF as always) is that "value" is the starting point, and assuming Chris agrees to becoming a member--do we have to sign documents? Is it wise to (also) incorporate MMM as an LLP in the UK? I am so new to all this--I suggest that rather than sending small money orders around (shall we say small = less than about fifty dollars/euros/pounds?), the "missing amounts" can be used as starting credits for the "new credits" part of the system? I therefore will owe you and Chris (and anyone else who fronts money-cash) X credits (need to tie those credits to something...Chris...this is where I see all the diagrams slowly turning into...decisions...actions...), or rather: you and Chris are crediting me with X credits to, I dunno, create a first book?
Only one (slight, I hope) hindrance, and that is time.
At this point I think I am asking for a large(r) chunk of Chris's time (though I see benefits for him as well...heh...as Mandy Rice Davies said, "Well, he would, wouldn't he?", though the painting I've done must be worth something...)
Maybe I just continue to write strange diaries and that's okay for now?
What you say, senor Cook? You like my painting?
So Paul: yes!
Or as Fran put it:
Here's another painting (not by me of course.)
Great drawing. paul spencer
3 votes - 60 %
2 votes - 40 %
