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In story: Brexit: Get on with it already?

Re: No negotiations before Brexit
( / )
It would be a wry twist of fate if the UK has stumbled into a sweet padded spot on the fence, finally!
Conversely equally twisted would be that the markets instability as the UK waffles and wavers wobbles the already fragile balance of EU finance off its Austerity Axis into the Keynesian (Keen for short) into the arms of Corbyn, Podemos, Syriza and MV5*...
Ben venga!

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on
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In story: Clear Leadership from the EU

Re: Clear Leadership from the EU
( / )
If I may hazard a guess, what his followers want (other than the 2 features you mentioned) would be -is- that he be free from the rancorous betrayal of labour values embodied in Blair, Cambell and Mandelson, aka tory-lite.

That gets to precisely my point though.  His whole schtick is just "That shit sucks" rather than saying, "You should make me PM, because I'll do x, y and z."

It's great to be against Thatcherism and Blairism n(I think we all agree with that), but what does that mean as a practical matter for the generic Brit on the street?

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on
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In story: Reversing Brexit?

Re: Reversing Brexit?
( / )
Frank:
I think Scottish Independence within the EU now has to be taken as a given in any future scenario.

Then Scotland will have to accept having the Euro as their currency. That could take them from the pan to the fire - unless a miracle occurred and the EMU and ECB, along with the direction of economic policy in the EU were totally reformed - in a good way.

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on
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In story: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory

Re: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory
( / )
Why would they lay the big hits on the Tories? The point of the chicken coup - as it's coming to be called - was to remove Corbyn before the Chilcot Report arrives, using Brexit as a pretext. Conveniently, and entirely by unfortunate accident, it also left the Tories off the Brexit hook - although Gove's subsequent backstabbing of Boris destroyed that misdirection.

The PLP has no serious interest in opposing Tory policies among the PLP, except in an ineffectual token way. With a few exceptions, most of the PLP is just fine with pretending to be left-enough to keep being an MP, but not so left it makes a difference.

Remember, these are the people who voted to support the most fascist welfare bill passed in recent history.

Most of these MPs were parachuted into constituencies by what used to be the solidly Blair-ite party leadership, which saw the members as a source of legitimacy it could exploit for money and power, not a constituency it needed to represent.

Corbyn has upended that cosy arrangement by being a true believer in popular socialism. He may be old and not particularly charismatic, but if he deselects the Blairites and replaces them with more true believers we could see a genuine socialist government in the UK - for the first time since the 1970s.

The thought terrifies the establishment, which is why the attacks on Corbyn have been so vicious and persistent.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on
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In story: Reversing Brexit?

Re: I don't think this will be as bad as the usual
( / )
The certificates are from for credit courses at Arkansas State University Mountain Home.

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on
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In story: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory

Re: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory
( / )
This is no time for a coup against a successful Labour leader  John McDonnell New Statesman
The Labour Party had the opportunity to keep its head while all about it lost theirs. It could have positioned itself as a credible alternative to a broken Government and a Tory party in chaos. Instead we have been left with a pathetic attempt to overturn the democratic will of the membership.

But this has been coming for some time. In my opinion it has very little to do with the ramifications of the referendum result. Jeremy Corbyn was asked to do two things throughout the campaign: first, get Labour voters to side with Remain, and second, get young people to do the same.
.....
This is no time for a leadership coup. I am dumbfounded by the attempt to remove Jeremy. The only thing that will come out of this attempted coup is another leadership election that Jeremy will win. Those opposed to him will then find themselves back at square one. Such moves only hurt Labour's electoral chances. Labour could be offering an ambitious plan to the country concerning our current relationship with Europe, if opponents of Jeremy Corbyn hadn't decided to drop a nuke on the party.

Considering that this whole fiasco seems to have been organized by Blair's former spin-meister it would seem time for a house cleaning. Corbyn supporters should make sure of the composition of the NEC and the CLP organizations so as to be prepared for a general election. With Corbyn reported being ready to recommend Blair for investigation of charges of war crimes it is not hard to see the priority of Alistair Campbell.

Flush the toilet, already!

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on
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In story: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory

Re: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory
( / )
And, while Labour membership trended downwards after the peak under Blair, it is now trending upwards for Corbyn.

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on
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In story: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory

Re: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory
( / )
Labour Party gains 60,000 new members in one week following attempted coup against Corbyn | UK Politics | News | The Independent

At least 60,000 new people have joined the Labour party in the past week amid delays to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership challenge.

The figure, said to be one of the fastest increases in membership of any British political party in history, follows MPs' attempt to launch a coup against the Labour leader.

A mass of resignations from the Shadow Cabinet and 75 per cent vote of no confidence have left Mr Corbyn with a minimal following. The rush of new members to the party, however, raises Labour's total membership to around 450,000 - higher than its last peak of 405,000 during Tony Blair's leadership in 1997.

...Of the new members, 20,000 have been checked and over half are thought to have joined to support Mr Corbyn in "a historic shift" to prevent the leadership challenge by Labour MPs.

(My emphasis)

by DoDo on
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In story: Brexit: Get on with it already?

Re: No negotiations before Brexit
( / )
A suitable response would be: 'The UK will not produce an Article 50 request until and unless practical arrangements to negotiate the exit are agreed.' That would likely seem to unite Merkel and Hollande in agreement to provide such a framework, if for different reasons.

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on
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In story: Brexit: Get on with it already?

Re: No negotiations before Brexit
( / )
I find myself compelled to agree with Liam Fox's description of Cecilia Malstrom's dictat as "bizarre, stupid, preposterous and ridiculous".

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on
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In story: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory

Re: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory
( / )
The ineptitude of the failed Corbyn coup
Just look at it from their strategic perspective for a moment. They claim to care about the Labour Party (so much so that they shed crocodile tears on the telly over it) and they claim that Corbyn doesn't do enough to hold the Tories to account.

If they had any strategic nous, instead of attempting their coup immediately after Brexit, the plotters (Hillary Benn, Angela Eagle and the like) could have made a huge show of attacking the Tories for Brexit, they could have used their friends in the media to give their criticisms prominence, whilst Corbyn's get ignored, belittled and disparaged.

Instead of helping the Tories out of the Brexit hole they'd dug for themselves and booting the Labour Party down there in their place as they did by launching their coup immediately, the plotters could have won plaudits for their own strong responses in the crisis situation, boosting the Labour party rather than trashing it, and ensuring their own stars were rising in the process.

Thus, a few weeks, or months after Brexit, when the public narrative was clearly set that Brexit was the fault of the Tories, they could have tried their rebellion, pointing to the fact that they laid all the big hits on the Tories in the wake of Brexit, not Corbyn.


by DoDo on
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In story: Brexit: Get on with it already?

Re: No negotiations before Brexit
( / )
Meanwhile: No bendy bananas nor high power appliances for you. Oh, and who's in charge?

by Bernard on
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In story: Brexit: Get on with it already?

Re: No negotiations before Brexit
( / )
tbh May is being realistic. There is absolutely nothing the rest of the EU can do to enforce the issue, but I imagine they can make it increasingly uncomfortable with legislative and regulatory changes

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on
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In story: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory

Re: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory
( / )
The show continues:

Tom Watson calls on Labour MPs to prevent leadership contest | Politics | The Guardian

Watson is seeking to organise a meeting with Corbyn's closest advisers to try to agree a negotiated settlement that would see the Labour leader step down voluntarily, thus avoiding an acrimonious and drawn-out battle.

...Eagle's closest allies say that she is a unity candidate who would pull the party together. But supporters of Smith, the shadow pensions secretary until he stepped down on Monday, have also been collecting nominations, and think he would have a better chance than Eagle because his politics are further to the left and because he did not vote on the invasion of Iraq in 2003, having not been an MP at the time.

The touting of decidedly Labour right candidate of Eagle as a "unity" candidate was ridiculous enough, but in the very next sentence, The Guardian managed to write this:

MPs on all sides of the party were heeding Watson's call for calm over the weekend as they consider how best to launch a challenge.

Yeah because all sides of the party want to launch a challenge against Corbyn...

As for the chances of the challengers:

A poll of Labour members by the Times suggested that while Eagle would have a better chance against Corbyn compared with other potential candidates such as Watson or Dan Jarvis, the current leader would still win in a one-to-one contest.


by DoDo on
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In story: Brexit: Get on with it already?

Re: No negotiations before Brexit
( / )
Well, this is going to be "interesting" (in the British sense): both May and Gove stated that article 50 may not be invoked before "the end of the year" or even next year.

Brexit cannot be cancelled or delayed, says Francois Hollande | UK Politics | News | The Independent

Michael Gove said that as Prime Minister he would only act after "extensive preliminary talks", and most probably not before the end of this year, while Theresa May said: "There should be no decision to invoke Article 50 before the British negotiating strategy is agreed and clear."
by Bernard on
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In story: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory

Re: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory
( / )
This is yesterday's news, too:

Angela Eagle leadership website registered days before she resigned - The i newspaper online iNews

Website registration data appears to show that the domain "angela4leader.org" was set up two days before she resigned

It also came before Hilary Benn was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn early Sunday morning - the spark that set off a major rebellion in the Labour shadow cabinet.

Angela Eagle is expected to announce a run for the leadership of the Labour Party in the coming days.



by DoDo on
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In story: Open Thread 27 June - 3 July

Re: Senility strikes again...
( / )
Post Brexit times: better expect the unexpected...
by Bernard on
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In story: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory

Re: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory
( / )
This is a day old, but comedy gold: some of the anti-Corbyn rebels seem to realise that they could actually lose (my emphasis).

MPs divided over Corbyn as Eagle delays leadership challenge | Politics | The Guardian

Eagle, the former shadow business secretary, was expected to declare that she was going to run as a "unity candidate" at a 3pm press conference.

However, her associates claim she has decided to hold off because of the turmoil engulfing the Conservatives and to give more time for Labour MPs to pressurise Corbyn in to handing in his resignation.

Her decision to stand was also delayed when the former shadow welfare secretary Owen Smith collected enough nominations to put his name forward, following concerns that Eagle may not be able to win over the party in a ballot of members.

...Some MPs are concerned that Eagle will face hostility from many members over her support for the Iraq war. The Chilcot report into the buildup, conduct and aftermath of the war is due to be published on Wednesday.

...One pro-Smith MP said there should be no rush to challenge Corbyn. "We have to give them some more time; if Angela challenges him and we lose, it could split the party permanently. There is no need for a challenge to happen today, or even this week. It's self-interest. That's what has motivated people to come out and back Owen," the MP said.

Of course, there is still no reason to get hopes high: Corbyn could lose the vote, or win but his opponents might form a new party, repeating the eighties when the Labour splitters of the SDP handed power to Thatcher. BTW, I didn't know until now that Polly Toynbee, who seems to lead The Guardian's disgraceful cheerleading of the coup attempt, was in the SDP.

by DoDo on
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In story: Clear Leadership from the EU

Re: Corbyn for Prime Minister?
( / )
Very Serious People??

They hate him because he is opposed to Blairite corporatism. Which is their very reason to be in the Labour party (as opposed to the Tories, their more natural home)

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on
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In story: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory

Re: Defeat from the Jaws of Victory
( / )
I, personally, will be very sad if Corbyn goes.  He may very well be the last leader of Labour as a major political force.  Yes he is a throwback to a previous age: The sort of leftwinger who organised rallies and protests and joined all sorts of progressive advocacy groups that I used to get involved with in my youth.  But he also represents a decency and integrity which is almost entirely absent from todays post factual politics.

The candidates he stood a against in the last leadership election were simply absolutely awful.  They couldn't give a straight answer to  straight question. All seemed to be careerist crawthumping ingratiaters who would do or say anything if they felt it would further their promotional prospects and who wouldn't know a principled stand if it slapped them in the face.  None of them actually seemed to believe in socialism or trade unionism or anything Labour used to stand for.

So Corbyn was a giant amongst pygmies, and remains one of the greatest assets the labour party still has.  I wouldn't be surprised if he successfully withstood the Westminster coup being plotted against him.  In fact it could further his standing as an outsider not of the Westminster elite who have been primarily responsible for the current mess.  Perhaps the British press are about to find out that they no longer call the shots.  

I could even see Corbyn becoming Prime Minister if the Tory party splits over the EU, and UKIP runs away with a lot of their votes.  He is the only person with the standing to actually reverse course and negotiate a left leaning reform of the EU as the price of staying in - following an election in which he explicitly campaigned for a remain.  But maybe that is wishful thinking on my part...

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on
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In story: The UK and the EU democratic deficit

Re: The UK and the EU democratic deficit
( / )
I agree that democracy in the EU is too indirect to create a popular felt sense of democracy.  E.g. citizens elected national parliamentarians who elect national governments who appoint Commissioners, central bankers, judges, and Council members.  

The UK was in the forefront of preventing further powers being devolved to the EP which helped to undermine its effectiveness and legitimacy. It's departure now creates an opportunity to revisit that issue.

I would also not have a problem with an EU-wide consultative referendum on key EU wide issues.  For instance an EU wide referendum on a European army, TTIP, refugee policy, or even the terms of UK exit.

To be useful, such referenda should be on specific proposals with specific consequences either way.  For instance, if the referendum rejects whatever terms the Council negotiates whatever terms the Council negotiates, the the UK would simply leave with no exit package whatsoever.

It would be a nice irony if that decision was made by an EU wide referendum - sending a clear message that the UK electorate are not the only people with rights or with a stake in the future of the EU.

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on
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Repubblica

M5  32%
PD 30%
Lega and Forza both under 12%

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on
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In story: Brexit: Get on with it already?

Re: No negotiations before Brexit
( / )
flight, not fight.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on
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In story: Brexit: Get on with it already?

Re: No negotiations before Brexit
( / )
Yup: I'd guess that if this isn't sorted by end September in some way, the fight will start - it'll take that long to get the institutional ducks in a row and decisions ready for sign-off.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on
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In story: Brexit: Get on with it already?

Re: No negotiations before Brexit
( / )
Financial institutions will be leaving The City over the next 2+ years.  They will not hang around waiting for the politicians to get their act together to Leave and then another unknowable number of years in trade negotiations.  

by ATinNM on
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I did a bit of searching:

The Company do electronic voting, but I don't find any mention of doing it in Spain.
INDRA ELECTRONIC VOTING SYSTEM SUCCESS - Telecompaper


INDRA ELECTRONIC VOTING SYSTEM SUCCESS
Tuesday 6 January 1998 | 00:00 CET | News
Indra (Spain), IT company which is due to be 66% privatised at start-1999, automated up to 99.4% of the voting that took place in the 06 December 1998 elections in Venezuela. Deploying the company's electronic voting system involved training 10k people to use 7k intelligent ballot boxes located at 5k voting stations. Indra's contract with the Venezuelan govt was worth USDlr148 mil. The company aims to boost its business in Latin America, where elections are expected in Argentina, Panama, and Colombia in 1999, and in Nicaragua in 2000. Indra has already provided electronic voting in Argentina
 

In fact, Spain appears to count ballots by hand, at least according to this list: Vote Counting Methods | Voter Turnout | International IDEA

On the other hand, the petition looks real enough:
AUTORIDADES ESPAÑOLAS Y EUROPEAS: Auditoría Elecciones Generales 26-J

Por qué es importante
  1. El Ministro del Interior, encargado del recuento/escrutinio de los votos, ha sido sorprendido flagrantemente utilizando las instituciones y a la Policía para destruir a rivales políticos.
  2. El Gobierno se saltó el concurso público y ejecutó la adjudicación del contrato para el recuento de los votos del 26-J por "procedimiento negociado" - cosa totalmente inusual en este tipo de contratos - adjudicándose a Indra, una empresa diferente que la que hizo el recuento el 20D, que ganó a través de concurso.
  3. Pero lo peor de todo, es que Indra está de lleno envuelta en una trama de corrupción (la Púnica) con el mismo partido que supervisa el recuento/escrutinio de las elecciones y que otorgó dicho contrato "a dedo", el Partido Popular.
  4. Los resultados de las elecciones no se corresponden en absoluto con ninguna de todas las encuestas: nunca en la historia de la democracia se habían dado semejantes diferencias.

Para más info entra aquí:
https:/www.facebook.com/Spainonymous?fref=ts

I'll leave it for the more knowledgeable to comment, and I hope they will.

by fjallstrom on
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In story: Brexit: Get on with it already?

No negotiations before Brexit
( / )
BBC
The European Union's top trade official says the UK cannot begin negotiating terms for doing business with the bloc until after it has left.

"First you exit then you negotiate," Cecilia Malmstrom told BBC Newsnight.
After Brexit, the UK would become a "third country" in EU terms, she said - meaning trade would be carried out based on World Trade Organisation rules until a new deal was complete.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on
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In story: Clear Leadership from the EU

Re: Corbyn for Prime Minister?
( / )
The VSPs hate him - my VSP friends on Facebook are looking forward to his departure, and I really can't tell why. It seems to be one of those VSP litmus tests.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on
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In story: Clear Leadership from the EU

Corbyn for Prime Minister?
( / )
I, personally, will be very sad if Corbyn goes.  He may very well be the last leader of Labour as a major political force.  Yes he is a throwback to a previous age: The sort of leftwinger who organised rallies and protests and joined all sorts of progressive advocacy groups that I used to get involved with in my youth.  But he also represents a decency and integrity which is almost entirely absent from todays post factual politics.

The candidates he stood a against in the last leadership election were simply absolutely awful.  They couldn't give a straight answer to  straight question. All seemed to be careerist crawthumping ingratiaters who would do or say anything if they felt it would further their promotional prospects and who wouldn't know a principled stand if it slapped them in the face.  None of them actually seemed to believe in socialism or trade unionism or anything Labour used to stand for.

So Corbyn was a giant amongst pygmies, and remains one of the greatest assets the labour party still has.  I wouldn't be surprised if he successfully withstood the Westminster coup being plotted against him.  In fact it could further his standing as an outsider not of the Westminster elite who have been primarily responsible for the current mess.  Perhaps the British press are about to find out that they no longer call the shots.  

I could even see Corbyn becoming Prime Minister if the Tory party splits over the EU, and UKIP runs away with a lot of their votes.  He is the only person with the standing to actually reverse course and negotiate a left leaning reform of the EU as the price of staying in - following an election in which he explicitly campaigned for a remain.  But maybe that is wishful thinking on my part...

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on
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Apparently there were some serious formal errors that could conceivably have affected the outcome.

by generic on
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News and Views

 27 June - 3 July 2016

by Bjinse - Jun 28, 20 comments

Your take on today's news media

 13 - 19 June 2016

by Bjinse - Jun 13, 47 comments

Your take on today's news media

 Open Thread 27 June - 3 July

by Bjinse - Jun 28, 21 comments

They'll never take our thread

 Open Thread 13 - 19 June

by Bjinse - Jun 13, 56 comments

Go ahead, make my thread

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