American Poverty

by Izzy
Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 04:19:56 PM EST

Bumped by whataboutbob: this is just too good of a discussion to let it slide off into oblivion yet...so one more for the road!

Okay all you believers in the American Dream, defenders of the status quo, champions of the huddled masses, and innocent bystanding statistic lovers -- it's time to quit sullying other threads with our wrangling and get down to business.  

Time to stop dragging in the costs of tuition, prices of produce and arcane portions of the US tax code into unsuspecting diaries.  Don't act innocent -- you know who you are and I expect to see you in here.

As to the rest of you, jump on in!  Be forewarned that my head explodes periodically in this type of discussion, but it passes quickly and I can be reasoned with -- I  admit I have issues.

The rest of the unrepentant arguers all seem quite nice and reasonable except when they're occasionally stunningly incorrect, but I'll leave that for now.

The issue is poverty in the United States -- does it exist?  what is the scope?  how bad is it?  can it be overcome?  how does it compare to Europe?  and why does this matter?


Now, I'm one of those always dragging the huddled masses into things types (as if they haven't troubles enough).  My stance is that we have terrible poverty in the US.  That the problem is quite large and growing.  I believe this one "fact" of American life explains our political madness and also holds the key to solving our problems.

And I want to state for the record that I'm a big believer in the American Dream.  I believe with all my heart that who you are or where you come from shouldn't matter.  I believe we all are entitled to freedom, equality, and opportunity.  I believe that if a person works hard, they should be able to at least achieve the basics needed for survival.

But what I'm seeing and experiencing here in these United States is an ever increasing gap between rich and poor.  What I'm seeing isn't that the American Dream isn't working, it's that it works fine for a decreasing few but locks out an increasing many.  

And the problem as I see it is that we're pushing our system, our economic model on the rest of the world.  We're selling our dream hard and showing you the wealthy, healthy, best and brightest  highest peak of our system.  But we're not showing you what's underneath.  We're not telling you how we climbed to those lofty heights.

And we know the hard sell.  We're giving it all we've got.  We want you to liberalize your economy, de-regulate your markets, and open yourselves up to investment.  You will protect our industry instead of your environment, our investments instead of your labor, our economy instead of your people, or you will by-god pay, amen.

And we keep lying to you.  We tell you this will be good for you, that it works.  Just bend over, it won't hurt a bit.  Look at us -- we're doing it and we're fine!  The richest, wealthiest most wonderful, powerful bad-ass nation in the world, in history, that there ever will be.

But we're not fine.  That's the point I keep trying to make.

And you're all good people.  You know there's a problem and you don't like certain things about this and then there's that whole war and oil and things have gotten out of hand.  You're looking for solutions.  To solve anything you need to identify the problem.  And, hey!, I'm an American and I think I know what a big part of that problem is.

So I'm over here yellin' and wavin' and pointin' and stuff, trying to attract attention.  What I'm saying is -- look over here!  We have poor people and violence and death.  We have untenable, intractable, hideous, callous and cruel poverty.  

The system they're trying to sell you runs on this stuff!  

The plantation is pretty, but it takes slaves to run it.  The castle is lovely, but you'll need the moat to keep the peasants out.  Our economic model, our shining city on the hill, is built on the backs of the poor.  It doesn't work without them.

And the biggest problem I have is that many don't want to listen and some who do refuse to believe.  There's not many people like me talking to people like you.  People like me aren't supposed to escape, to mix.  They make it really hard to get across the moat and, if you make it, they've already told the folks on the castle grounds all about our kind.

From the Wall Street Journal via AEI as regards the victims of Katrina:

. . . We have rediscovered the underclass. Newspapers and television understandably prefer to feature low-income people who are trying hard--the middle-aged man working two jobs, the mother worrying about how to get her children into school in a strange city. These people are rightly the objects of an outpouring of help from around the country, but their troubles are relatively easy to resolve. Tell the man where a job is, and he will take it. Tell the mother where a school is, and she will get her children into it. Other images show us the face of the hard problem: those of the looters and thugs, and those of inert women doing nothing to help themselves or their children. They are the underclass.

 . . . The government hasn't a clue. Versions of every program being proposed in the aftermath of Katrina have been tried before and evaluated. We already know that the programs are mismatched with the characteristics of the underclass. Job training? Unemployment in the underclass is not caused by lack of jobs or of job skills, but by the inability to get up every morning and go to work. A homesteading act? The lack of home ownership is not caused by the inability to save money from meager earnings, but because the concept of thrift is alien. You name it, we've tried it. It doesn't work with the underclass.

 . . . the statistical reality is that people who get into the American job market and stay there seldom remain poor unless they do something self-destructive. And behaving self-destructively is the hallmark of the underclass.

They tell these lies over and over, that it's not the system it's the people, the underclass with their "certain characteristics."  It's not a lack of jobs, education, skills, or opportunity, they say.  It's the people.  The inert mothers and lazy fathers who won't get out of bed.  These people do nothing to help themselves, they always say.  And they profit from these lies and this fear and make the moat wider while the castle grounds shrink.

I keep telling this same story and having these same arguments.  People bring various statistics to the arguments, and that's fine if we're talking about the area around the castle.  What I'm always talking about is how many people are across the moat, how bad it is and what a brutal way it is to try and live.  I know this because I lived there myself once.  So far as I know, most of that population isn't counted in the statistics, they're simply ignored.  But I can't ignore them.  I can't keep them out of these arguments because, while I live here with you now, my heart is still with the people across the moat.

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Okay, as promised (threatened?) here 'tis.  Bring me your tired statistics, your poor hunches, your huddled anecdotes.  We'll figure something out.  I may even have some actual, y'know, facts waiting in the wings.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2005 at 05:44:25 PM EST
Izzy, if this diary is the outcome, I sure hope your head explodes more often. :-) thank you.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 01:17:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you, Fran.  I hope you still feel as kindly now!  I slept in and see this diary has had quite a night (or day).  I'm drinking coffee now, trying to kickstart my brain enough to absorb the comments and figure out if I owe apologies anywhere!  It does look, on first glance, as though a lot of good research and points are in here.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 01:33:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow, Izzy, great discussion you set loose with your diary. Unfortunately I only have been able to read the comments now, and there is nothing I can think of to add. However, I hope you will write a diary again soon.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 17th, 2005 at 04:25:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think your description of American poverty is a microcosm of global poverty: the ever-increasing gap between rich and poor, an increasing many for whom the world system doesn't work. We refuse to admit how our affluent societies climbed to their lofty heights. The deregulation of the global system for the benefit of our corporations mimics the debasing of our social safety nets at home. The EU castle is lovely but there is an impoverished mob trying to cross the moat. The world economic system also doesn't work without the poor.

Here is the problem: we've all heard about the complementarity of inflation and unemployment. The problem is that policy analysis may look good on paper, but when you look up from the paper you realize you are making conscious decisions about allowing more actual people to become unemployed, or allowing actual people's savings to become devalued. And there is no way out from the moral quandary. There are indications that the economic system works most efficiently when a small fraction of the population is allowed to slip through the cracks. The problem is that noone likes to be the one slipping through the cracks. The analysis looks good on paper, but then you realize you're talking about actual people.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2005 at 06:59:15 PM EST
I think your description of American poverty is a microcosm of global poverty

Damn!  You caught me.

And, actually, I haven't heard about the complementarity of inflation and unemployment.  I understand the economy the way a trailer park resident understands tornados, but I'll take your word for it that there's some sort of correlation or rationale.

I've also done enough reading to get a basic grasp of the arguments, so I understand there has to be a balance.  You say to be efficient a small percentage have to slip through the cracks, but it seems to me we've passed "small percentage" although perhaps not in the EU?

And why is there no way out of the moral quandry?  I think this bears some exploration.  It seems to me some countries are doing quite nicely -- how are they making it work and why can't we all do it?  I mean, I understand if we had things even somewhat fair, we wouldn't be able to build empires and dynasties and whatever the corporate equivalent of those are, but do we really need those things?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2005 at 07:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...because it is a rare situation where you can make a policy decision that makes everyone be better off, or that improves all indicators. So there is no way out of the quandary. And at the end of the day you are dealing with actual people, so the quandary is a moral one.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2005 at 08:23:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And it requires moral decisions that are reasonably obvious unless you obfuscate them with dodgy economic philosophies.

People will fall through the cracks as a result of the way the system is set-up. It's not primarily their fault. That's why we should be ready to catch them, support them and at least stop them hitting bottom. Make sure they have adequate shelter, adequate health care and adequate food. Ensure that they have the material resources to maintain some self-respect in a society that equates material wealth with moral rectitude.

Blaming the people who fall through inevitable cracks in the system is stupid and evil: maybe some of their choices did help them fall, but if they hadn't it would be someone else. Maybe you.

The key difference between the US and European models seems to me to be a general acceptance in the EU that the people at the bottom should be supported while from over here it looks like that  in the US the consensus seems to be "to hell with them, it's their own fault".

That's what you get for letting Puritans found a country.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 02:18:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is the thing: if you get the people to identify with the wealthy or the ruling classes, you've won, because it will be political suicide to suggest (say) higher taxes for the wealthy in order to support a safety net or a way to bring back up the people who fall through the cracks.

So, the class war has been won by the wealthy by conditioning everyone to think of themselves not as they are or have been but as they might be in the future if they are hard-working, lucky and successful.

That people in the middle class and even the lower class identify most strongly with the wealthy is the only explanation I can muster for the average American's ideas about social justice, poverty, taxation, etc.

This identification with the wealthy is reinforced by the "American Dream" myth of the self-made man who pulled himself by his bootstraps out of a disadvantaged background and became wealthy (the only definition of "successful" that Americans accept). American politicians and business leaders will go out of their way to present themselves as "from the people".

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 07:51:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the class war has been won by the wealthy by conditioning everyone to think of themselves not as they are or have been but as they might be in the future if they are hard-working, lucky and successful.

This is a fundamental point. I read a poll that stated that something like 10 or 20% of the population thought they were in the top 1% earners. Yes, everybody in the USA can make it rich, so laws that could be detrimental to me then, even if it would be good to me now, have more trouble being sold.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 03:18:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
something like 10 or 20% of the [US] population thought they were in the top 1% earners.

Jérôme, you must be joking. (Sadly, I know you are not).

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 05:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Radio Host Garrison Keillor has an imaginary town he reports on each week. One of its properties:

"All the children are above average"

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 06:51:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I actually think that's quite funny.  I think the whole thing is "Where the women are strong, the men are good looking, and the children all above average."

Now if you want to hear something that's not funny, some school districts have actually made it a requirement for graduation that you have an above average GPA.  In other words, they're dictating that our children will be above average.  It's so absurd and I thought of Keillor when I read it.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Oct 13th, 2005 at 06:26:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Prairie Home Companion is quite funny. It airs on NPR, and if you follow the link to "Archive" in the program's homepage you can download an audio stream of past shows. I recommend it, it's really poetic as well as entertaining.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Oct 13th, 2005 at 06:44:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'm way out of my depth here, but why let that stop me?  I can see your point perfectly about quandaries being moral when any action is going to hurt someone.  That makes sense.

But, when the arguments become that x cannot be done because it cuts into y's profit margin, then I'm not so sure.

For instance, I see our healthcare system as immoral and don't understand really where the quandary part comes in.  We can afford a national health plan.  People are dying.  It's somewhat of an emergency if you look at that fact and the rising infant mortality rate.

We can afford a national health plan.  It would benefit a majority of the people.  It would save taxpayer money since we already pay so much per capita by having a two tiered system.  It would benefit doctors who are drowning in paperwork and insurance.  It would benefit many businesses who are paying exhorbitant insurance rates.

A national health plan seems win-win to me.  Who would lose?  The HMOs, and Insurance companies.  I say fine, cut out the middlemen and let them find useful work.  I suppose the pharmacuetical companies would suffer a bit of profit loss as well.  Again, I don't see that as a bad thing.  I don't think medicine should be the road to wealth beyond imagining.  I think the current CEO salaries and stockholder profits are grotestque.  

So in this scenario, I don't see a quandary.  I see something that's simply the right, the moral, thing to do.  I see leaving the system as is to be immoral.  So, is there a downside I'm unaware of?


Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 12:56:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, is there a downside I'm unaware of?

Nope.

by btower on Fri Oct 21st, 2005 at 12:47:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Poverty seems to be an economic phenomenon, and we notice it by its hallmark of material want.  But this is an illusion.  

Consider:  Henry VII of England could afford neither an air condition for hot days nor oil-furnace central heating for cold days;  He could not afford a CD player for his favorite music, nor a TV.  Most Americans can afford this much, and more.  So:  Was he poor?  Of course not.  

Less dramatically, when I was traveling in India a couple of decades ago, it occurred to me that if the poor of America could move to India with their incomes, they would be modestly well off.  But of course that could not happen, and it does not work that way.  Instead they have to live in America and be subject, because of material want, to daily contempt.  The expressing and receiving of contempt is the whole point.  

Poverty is the natural compliment to wealth.  When some members of a society manage to have assigned to themselves special value in that society, greater than other members, and then arrange to have that status marked by the accumulation of material goods and the material deprivation of others, then we have wealth and poverty.  

Wealth/poverty is a single thing, and America we have a very, very great wealth/poverty.  

The opposite of wealth/poverty is prosperity, where no member of society is greatly valued above another, and where there is no great material accumulation and deprivation.  Whereas wealth/poverty focuses on accumulation/deprivation, prosperity focuses on maintaining a material flow.  

Are many Americans in material distress?  Sure, as the recent events in New Orleans makes vivid.  I don't mean the hurricane damage, per se, though that was one thing.  Rather, Katrina pulled back the veil.  

by Gaianne on Tue Oct 11th, 2005 at 09:55:17 PM EST
And I would add to material distress, physical distress.  Many people do die here for want of food, want of shelter, want of medical care.  Many, many more are involved in a daily struggle for survival -- to keep their shelter or their kids fed.  This struggle is no less desperate because they happened to acquire a tv along the way.

But I find your point about wealth/poverty being a single thing to be interesting.  What is the road from this to prosperity?  Because it seems we did do it quite well at one point.

I've often argued that from where we are now, we cannot "fix" the bottom without making some changes at the top.  Things are too unbalanced.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 11th, 2005 at 10:57:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is the road from this to prosperity?  

A hard question.  At this point Americans frankly prefer wealth/poverty.  Long ago we were sold on the idea that if everyone was getting more goodies (or enough people, or the right people) then ever-increasing disparities didn't matter.  But this is not true, and is the greatest underlying cause of the destruction of American democracy now.  

And the pallative of goodies has run to its end.  Our civilization simply cannot keep producing more goodies.  We have hit the end of the road, and people have gone into the bland--and blind--denial that precedes panic.  Our near future includes a period of chaos and what might be described as collapse.  The only analogy I can find is the Great Depression, but this will surely be worse, as the Great Depression was a breakdown of the banking system solely.  There were no real shortages, only obstacles to distribution.  This time shortages will be real.  People will feel poorer, worse, there will be real distress as panic leads to hording and all manner of unhelpful behaviors.  What lies beyond is fairly opaque, except for some obvious constraints:  It will have to be sustainable.  

Sustainability has already been consistently rejected by Americans in favor of accelerated consumption.  Right now there are still plenty of SUVs on the road, and even humvees.  From one perspective, it does not matter much--making cars more efficient (for example, switching to hybrids) will not bring us to a sustainable economy.  But on the other hand, it is a clear expression of mood:  Many Americans don't want a balanced way of life and are willing to go the route of self-destruction.  Americans are like addicts.  This is the basic problem.  

Twelve-step programs often work for addicts who want to recover.  The idea of an entire nation undertaking such a spiritual recovery is daunting.  

It is seeming to me that the powers that be--a tiny wealthy subclass of Americans that actually runs this country--is either monumentally stupid or is looking forward to a scenerio that involves massive population die-off.  The looting of the public infrastructure (de-funding of schools, public health, &c) is a clear sign that the nation is to be destroyed, and more recently the responses to hurricanes Katrina and Rita and the (grossly useless) preparations for the looming bird flu, dispel any doubt--Americans can expect constructive actions from neither national government nor the corporate world.  The model that I hold with right now is that the powers-that-be are looking forward to a depopulated, feudalized North America with themselves in control and enjoying such material amenities as still exist.  

Watching the Democratic Party this summer has led me to the conclusion that there are no political means for altering America's course.  Their is no organized political opposition to the course of destruction.  There are rearguard battles to be fought, but they are that--rear guard.  The environment will deteriorate, the economy will decline until some point is reached when the whole charade can not be maintained.  After that, the future is just opaque.  

Eventually, Americans will come around to a sustainable way of life.  That entails accepting a new, sustainable way of thinking.  Capitalist economics is not such a way, and it will go before recovery can begin.  The big open question is how long it will take to come around to a new state of mind, and how many people will die, and how much suffering there will have to be before Americans are willing to change.  I suspect a lot.  

Will all this lead to the choice of prosperity?  I hope so, but I can think of no solid theoretical reason why it has to.  It is possible that the population of North America will fall to within the continent's carrying capacity without any change in the desire to create wealth/poverty.  This is one of the worse scenerios.  

Still, prosperity might be chosen.  What would help bring it about?  Some local regions seem suited right now to beginning the change to sustainability, through the activities of community non-government/ non-business groups.  The building of local infra-structure around energy, food, and water seems to be the key.  We are going to need solidly practical efforts.  Right now we are working on the dissemination of concepts that will make this possible later.  

Learning how to be a community is a necessity, and an obstacle.  Consumerism is a mental disease that isolates people and degrades constructive thought.  So many people I know, including friends, are simply asleep.  They do what the television tells them, if that.  They make very poor survival prospects.  

The archaeology of past civilizations tells me not to be optimistic.  By the mid 1970's Americans knew it was time to change the materialism of their way of life, to think about how to be more efficient and less wasteful.  They refused.  Reagan's "morning in America" campaign was the embracing of fantasy and the embodiment of refusal.  That likely was the point at which a "soft-landing" for our civilization was precluded.  If there was room for doubt then, by 2000 the matter was settled.  We are going down hard.  I doubt prosperity can occur in my lifetime, though in a sense, there is nothing else to do but try for it.  And anyway, concrete attempts that succeed will be the basis for survival in the near and mid-range future.  

This post is much too long.  One basic change that is easy to state:  Capitalism quite literally concerns itself with the needs of money, not of the people who inhabit the economy.  A humane economy for a nation must value all of its members and explicitly seek ways for them to get what they need.  

by Gaianne on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 04:28:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is, quite simply, one of the most cogent and illuminating comments I've ever read on any blog. Thank you for explaining in such direct and simple terms the fundamental condundrum facing not just the USA, but the entire capitalist world right now. And no, I'm not a commie. But this is why I am a Green - they are the only party in my country (Aus) that gets this.

"This can't possibly get more disturbing!" - Willow
by myriad (imogenk at wildmail dot com) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 06:20:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When do you expect this downturn to occur?  Will we see this in measurements such as the GDP?
by wchurchill on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 07:18:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The timetable of the down-turn is, of course, a very intense question.  

Most bloggers, I mean the ones who actually look at the numbers, think we have two to five years.  But Ian Welsh, who posts on the main page at The Blogging of the President 2004, wrote last summer that the economic crash for the US would come in about a year and a half or so.  

From The Wilderness does not venture a timeline, but keeps a running track of clues and signposts--mostly news items relating to peak oil.  There are plenty of those.  

Jim Kuntsler recently blogged on an article in the New York Times about a developer named Toll and the unlimited market for homes in New Jersey.  The telling point, not mentioned in the NYT article, is that Toll himself is cashing out.  This suggests that although the housing bubble is peaking right now, the pop won't come for some months, as the last of the sucker trade is still to be sold their new homes.  After the pop, the general down-turn cannot be many months away, as people get trapped in their mortgages and enter financial distress.  

A year ago my dreams were telling me it would come early next summer.  This seemed awfully soon, but since Katrina and Rita I no longer really doubt it.  

Or again, it could happen tomorrow, for reasons nobody forsees.  

The main thing is not to count on a timeline, but to make preparations that do no depend strongly on when it happens, but that deal with the what of it.  Chavez has moved his assets out of dollars--for his own reasons--and so should you, at least partly, as a safety net, and certainly before the housing pop.  Into what?  That gets a bit murky.  FTW likes gold.  Many people are guessing euros.  I have not decided what I think will have value when the dollar turns to trash.  Food, water, tobacco, and whiskey, I suppose, but how much wealth can you store that way (assuming you have any)?  Drugs, for sure, if you are willing to go that route.  

A warning:  If you live in the US an executive order has already been signed allowing for seizure of your gold, food, water, and valuables.  Yes it is illegal, but that won't matter a bit--even without the new Supreme Court judges.  It does show, though, that they have been thinking ahead, despite their bumbling (some of which is intentional).  

Nobody will be worrying about the GDP.  

by Gaianne on Thu Oct 20th, 2005 at 09:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While I thought Coleman's diary was both interesting and important, I quickly became more interested in the off-topic sidetrack that developed, so thanks for providing space to pursue those thoughts.

My very naive views - I'm an American who knows little about European political systems or daily life. I have traveled there a few times (mainly to France), and I've learned a great deal more in the past year from reading blogs like this one, but I still feel very ignorant.

So some random thoughts. On one trip to Europe, I kept hearing, "Americans are so rich!" which I found very puzzling, in a way. Of course, many Americans are by any measure, rich. And our middle class generally has material possessions beyond those of most countries, even developed countries. But there seemed to be very little awareness of the millions of Americans struggling with deep poverty and how difficult it is for those trapped in poverty here to escape it. People who literally die for lack of health care. The homeless living under bridges. Elderly who die of heat or cold because they cannot afford to pay utility bills. Children who are hungry, young ones who are left home alone for lack of affordable child care. Addicts and the mentally ill who cannot get treatment because they cannot pay for it.

Do Europeans see this, do they have an idea of how many Americans I am describing?

Another thought - education was discussed in Coleman's diary. I am a professor, so this is a topic close to home.

1) The inequalities of our primary and secondary schools: A few years ago, the value of my home dropped $10,000 overnight (I live in a modest home, it's value was about $80,000 at the time, so we are talking about a significant decline). Why? Because the geographical lines that determine which school children will attend, based on their address, were redrawn. Children on my street, who had previously been assigned to go to a "good" high school would now be required to attend a "not-so-good" high school. I should say that even the second school is better than many in our city.

A "good" school is clean and pleasant and well-equipped. A wide variety of advanced courses are offered. Class sizes are small, or at least reasonable. There are teacher's aides and counselors and advisors who are competent and dedicated. Extra-curricular activities are plentiful - sport teams yes, but also drama clubs and debate teams, etc and these are supported financially by the parents. Of course, these schools are located in the affluent parts of town and the children of the well-to-do attend them. Most significantly, most of the best-qualified and most talented teachers prefer to teach in such schools and since these types of teachers are in demand, they usually (eventually) end up in these schools.

The "bad" schools? Well, just reverse all of the above. And of course, they end up with the marginally qualified, or even the truly unqualified teachers. (Many teachers in America are assigned to teach subjects in which they have no training at all - especially, of course, in the "bad" schools. Although laws exist requiring that teachers be "qualified," a temporary teaching certificate can be issued, declaring for example that one with a degree in literature is now authorized to teach algebra or biology and - presto! - this person is now "qualified.")

2) So of course, this has a huge impact on whether or not a high school graduate continues on to the college or university level. Begin with money. When I first attended the state university in my city, tuition and fees for one semester was about $50 for a state resident, and textbooks could be bought for about the same - so after coming up with about $100, all I had to figure out how to pay for was my living expenses while I went to college. I generally had a part-time job and managed to get by (with roommates) without much trouble.

Now? Well the same university charges $3719 for tuition and fees per semester. They estimate $400 for textbooks (a low figure in my experience). So where I could get a college education for about $800 (eight semesters), the charges today would be almost $33,000. Even allowing for inflation, this is a very different situation from the one that existed in the mid-60's.

Well, but there is financial aid for low income students, yes? Umm, yes and no. More and more aid is now "need blind" meaning that it is awarded based on academic qualifications alone, so it is available to the children of the wealthy on an equal footing with the children of the poor. But wait - the children of the wealthy went to the "good" schools, so who do you think will have the better SAT scores? Meanwhile the pool of money available to be awarded based on financial need shrinks.

The financial aid available to those who are not academic all-stars is generally loans. Now a middle or upper class family will likely be comfortable with large loans. They have mortgages and car loans, maybe loans to start a business, so they see college loans as an investment worth making. But the poor are renters who often find just coming up with a month's rent difficult. If they own a car, it is probably an old junker they paid a few hundred dollars cash for. The idea of starting out in life with $34,000 worth of debt is terrifying.

So they try to go to school while working full time. They go a semester and then drop out for a year or two and save their money, and then attempt another semester. It can take ten years or more to get a degree at this pace, and in the meantime, well, mom gets sick and can't work so they have to go back home and support their younger brothers and sisters, or they have a child of their own, or well, life happens. So they often give up before finishing.

And how are they doing academically when they are in school? There are successes, of course, but most struggle. It's hard to do college level work while working full-time. And remember, they came from the "bad" schools, so they had mostly unqualified, mediocre teachers (with, if they were lucky one or two of the dedicated and wonderful teachers that insist on teaching at "bad" schools because they know how needed they are there). There were few or no advanced classes. The school library has gotten no new books in years. The computers are old and there aren't enough of them. There are better libraries in town, but to get there you need bus fare, at least.

Oh good Lord. I just noticed how long this comment is, and how late it is on our side of the pond. Anyway, I'll post it in spite of its length - I'm describing my students here. I see how much easier it is for the children of the affluent and middle class to get a college degree and how difficult it is for my students who come from poverty to use education to escape from it. Even though, by simply being in one of my classes, they are the "fortunate poor." I never even see the vast majority of the children of the poor - those who dropped out of school when they were waylaid by drugs or gangs or teenage pregnancy or the need to leave school and go to work to help support their families before finishing.

So how is it in Europe? Are the poor as poor? Are there as many of them? Are there such great inequalities in pre-university education? Is it as difficult to succeed at the college level for the children of the poor who manage to get in the door of the university? (Yes, I know, every European country is different, and there are great differences here state-to-state, but we have to start somewhere.)

by Janet Strange (jstrange1925 - that symbol - hotmail, etc.) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 01:51:02 AM EST
Indeed it changes from country from country. Off the top of my head, I recall a story about the British system - where Bliar introduced tuition fees, with exemptions ostensibly a vehicle for more equal education, but the opposite happened. (Maybe I can look it up in the evening.)

When I was in West Germany, as far as I remember, parents' income didn't really matter at secondary school level - except for some taunting by peers (for wearing non-trendy clothes, or for being a peasant's child). Being staffed out by the state, I think there were no regional differences either (no parent wanted to take out any of my classmates, nor have those whose family moved recounted a very different school they visited before).

In Hungary, my experience was from before and shortly after the regime change (don't yet have children myself), so I don't know - but it probably changed for the worse both on the equal quality and equal opportunity front.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 07:04:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're welcome, Janet.  And thank you for this great comment.  It's a wonderful description of the problems in large segments of the working poor, struggling and marginally poor areas.  I don't know if this is how it's like where you are, but in some of the inner-city areas, just completing high-school is becoming more and more difficult.

Between the drug war, tough on crime, and zero tolerance policies, a lot of kids are getting pushed out entirely.  I had a black friend whose brother was terrified when California enacted the Three Strikes laws.  See, he already had two felony convictions.  He'd been tried as an adult at age 16 for carrying a concealed weapon and being in posession of a controlled substance.

The crime?  His grandma was sick and he had to go out after dark to pick up her perscription.  His area had a lot of gang activity after dark, he was scared and took a butter knife with him.

Now normal, sane people say that that just can't happen.  That surely somewhere in the system from the police to the prosecutor to the judge and jurors someone would come to their senses and say, hey!  He was a scared kid doing a favor for his grandma -- there's nothing really illegal about that!

But technically it is illegal.  We do have laws on the books that make it so.  And it happens all the time.  This was quite a few years ago and things have only gotten worse.

Later in life when I volunteered in an elementary school in a marginal neighborhood I realized where so much of the educational budget goes -- to social, health, and police work.  Our education system is broken because they're the last bastion of a safety net that doesn't exist.  

We were a magnet school, so we had the best and brightest kids from all over the area and we'd gotten a million dollar grant from the Feds.  It was hoped that we could do great things with matching these kids with computers, new textbooks, smaller classes.  I was very much involved in the budget and goals process.  

And we succeeded to some extent because of the windfall.  But most of the "normal" budget was spent on social services.  Free lunches, uniforms, health screenings, vaccinations, counseling, all sorts of things that should be provided by some other entity.

 We did end up getting some good equipment for the kids, but we also hired an extra social worker who could do community outreach to help parents obtain any services such as foodstamps which might be available to them.  We also used part of it to add free breakfasts.  These are things that are being left out of media reports and political rhetoric -- you can't shred the safety net without hobbling the services left.  You can't teach kids when they're hungry and sick.  Our schools are on the front lines.  In some places, they're the only line.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 05:03:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Janet, thanks for your lovely comment. I would like to answer and will do so, as soon as I find time. Please come back to this thread even in a couple of days, because that's how much I am stretched out to read here and comment.
by mimi on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 07:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Although I have a slight suspicion that you were partly thinking of my diary on wealth and poverty in Poland I actually mostly agree with you. There is a poverty trap in the US and it is extremely difficult to get out of and that it is as you say, a lack of 'jobs, education, skills, and opportunity.' Stats showing that plenty of poor people do move up are flawed because they are actually describing students who are poor at least in terms of formal income (i.e. not counting parental help and loans) but who quickly do well once they get out. At any given point they are a small portion of the low income group, but as they are a constantly replenished set, cumulatively they make up a large portion of those who at one point or another were in the bottom quintile. A more telling picture of class mobility compares where people end up relative to their parents, and there the picture is quite static. But in my opinion the most telling statistic about the bankruptcy of the American economic model is that median wages have stayed flat since the early seventies in spite of very substantial real per-capita growth. All that extra wealth has gone to the top fifth of society with a strong tilt to the top one percent.

The only parts where I disagree with you is about the poor not appearing in the stats - they do, and that relative to much poorer countries all classes of Americans are generally better off.

by MarekNYC on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 03:55:30 AM EST
Yes, the swipe at the statistics is unjustified: the stats are collected and published, just never reported or commented on.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 04:06:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know just how bad Izzy has been living, but people at the lowest low - homeless people, jobless illegal immigrants etc - do in fact often fall out of the statistics: usual tracking methods may not reach them.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 07:11:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We don't have the time to go into all that here, but I do a lovely rendition of Nobody Knows the Trouble I've Seen on the harmonica. ;-)

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 03:28:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I admit the swipe at the statistics can only be justified by personal observation.  Perhaps there are statistics that cover these things, but I'm unaware of them.  I'm talking about, as DoDo mentions, the people who fall through the cracks.

And also a general distrust of our methods because of verifiable statistical skulduggery we engage in.  For example, we've been mucking about with High School dropout statistics for years.  The scam is you have kids dropping out and not obtaining the General Equivalency Diploma (GED), but you don't count them as dropouts if, say, they're moving and "may" enrol in another school or if they say they "might" take the GED at some point.  

These kids are never followed up on and never reported in the statistics.  This was a bad problem in some states for many years because the funding relied on achieving certain goals.  The trend went national with NCLB.  Of course, that program had started in Texas when W. was Governor, so they were the first to have a school-district claim to have a zero dropout rate.  I'll try to find the story which explains the whole thing in detail if you'd like, but these sorts of things with statistics go on all the time.

We also have a million ways that people are "unqualified" for any of the safety net programs.  Now, if you're poor and can't get into any of the programs or receive any of the benefits, how are you counted in the statistics?  The only program I'm aware of that attempts to count one of these segments is the projects which simply sends people out in as many cities and areas they can get volunteers for, and counts how many homeless they find on one night a year.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 03:05:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
as promised, about the "zero dropout rate" incident.  It's quite a good read.  I don't know anything about this site I'm linking to, but they've reprinted the original NY Times article with permission.

Houston's Zero Dropout

Robert Kimball, an assistant principal at Sharpstown High School, sat smack in the middle of the "Texas miracle." His poor, mostly minority high school of 1,650 students had a freshman class of 1,000 that dwindled to fewer than 300 students by senior year. And yet -- and this is the miracle -- not one dropout to report!


Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 09:22:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Shirah at Unbossed did a good post on changes in data collection in the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Better That You Not Know

"The Bureau of Labor Statistics is probably not on your regular internet browsing schedule. Though it is worth a look now and then for the comprehensive data it collects and makes available free of charge to anyone. You can even construct your own charts.

But the BLS has decided that there are things it is better that we not know. It has announced plans to stop collecting some data and start collecting other data

(snip)

Here are the planned changes, all of which the BLS says are improvements.

BLS pans to discontinue collecting data on:

  1. what women workers are paid, because, it says, there is little interest in this issue.

  2. what hours "Production or nonsupervisory worker" work and what they are paid.

Here is an example of a ccurrent BLS report on women's and men's wages.

BLS also says it needs to stop collecting this data so it has the money to collect other data. Here are the new data it intends to collect:

  1. New data on the hours and regular earnings of all employees. All means that the data will include data from the most highly paid CEOs.

  2. New data on total earnings - both regular and irregular pay - for all employees.

If you look at this report, you will see why this is a problem. The report focuses on average earnings and uses them to assess how the economy is doing:"

There are links to everything in the original.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 03:10:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be the Bush administration undermining the science again.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 04:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.  Actually, shirah has another one about privatizing key positions in the EPA.  In one move it manages to skew statistics, undermine science, and funnel taxpayer money to cronies -- the Bush trifecta!

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 04:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A little graphic

In constant $, the bottom 60% of the households in the US have experienced very little income growth over the past 30 years.  The top is doing quite well.

Since 1980 its gotten much worse.

by btower on Fri Oct 21st, 2005 at 01:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The obvious one that everybody knows is universal health care. Another would be to lessen the inequality of education by removing the link between place of residence and school, making schools open to everybody in a broader region with competitive entrance exams. That would still leave the better off with an advantage but it would at least allow the poor some access to good quality education and help make the housing market a bit less insane.
by MarekNYC on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 04:01:39 AM EST
No, you have to have uniformly good education so the poor don't have to travel long distances to go to a good school. The issue is not access to the best schools, the issue is why it should matter so much which school you go to.

And great savings in time and money would follow from the ability to attend primary and secondary school of adequate quality within walking distance of one's own home.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 07:58:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In an ideal world that would be true. However, considering that schools are primarily financed locally by property taxes in the US things get difficult. Also I believe that a bit of class integration wouldn't be a bad idea. Transport would not be a big deal in densely populated areas though it would create serious problems in rural ones.

The idea that I am suggesting is one which exists in Poland and has traditionally worked quite well in the cities though it has begun to break down over the past few years as top urban public schools increasingly choose to segregate the poor from other students, putting them on a different schedule.

by MarekNYC on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 02:12:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But I think it's necessary to understand how the US finances its educational system. I don't think the differences of how the US does it and how it's done in European countries are very well known. Or may be, it's just me who doesn't know. I would love to have someone explain and compare it who knows.
by mimi on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 07:12:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Traditionally both America and Europe segregated their schooling by class but in very different ways. In America technically all people had access to the same sort of schools that could lead to a higher education. Of course in practice certain school districts were very good, others very bad. In Europe on the other hand what you got was a three track system - university track, middle track, and apprenticeship track.  Admission to the top track was open to all, but some were more equal than others. Like everywhere in the world, the children of the well educated (and thus generally better off) were more likely to get into the university track high schools. Plus it was typical for borderline bourgeois students to get in while borderline working class kids were steered to lower tracks. And the wealthy and upper middle class used private schools as a fallback option if their kids were too dumb to get into public ones. The result - excellent quality public high schools open to all in theory, but mainly populated by the children of the bourgeoisie and a perpetuation of the class system.  Over the past couple decades there has been a shift, formal or de facto, to universal high school education. At the same time I've seen increasing complaints that schools in poor areas are worse quality than those in better off ones.
by MarekNYC on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 02:33:24 PM EST
I've kind of contemplated this here is Switzerland...but a certain number of kids either choose or are steered towards trades...and guess what? It can be a very good paying livelihood, with not a whole lot of stress...at least that's true here in Switzerland. I mean, a masters or a doctorate will get you work, but if you are a craftsman/woman, you will get good paying work too, in most European countries, anyway...

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 03:14:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've often thought that wouldn't be a bad thing -- some kids just don't like academics that much.  Why not teach them the basics and then have some sort of trade option?

The other thing is how many jobs here require a BA.  Is a whole liberal arts education (while a lovely idea) really necessary to become an office manager?  One of my cousins in Britain went to nursing college.  At the same time, a friend of mine here wanted to be a nurse and spent half the time fuming about taking required maths and literature classes before she could even start training for her profession.  Not to mention the expense of all of that.  I was flabbergasted that my cousin could just go to school to learn nursing.  Valuing education is a good thing, but I think it devalues it when we have a bunch of people in college simply jumping hurdles to get to their goal.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 03:25:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Middle class snobbery.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Oct 13th, 2005 at 12:04:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, and you get accountability for the quality of craftsmanship through a clear structured apprentice/master curriculum, which is worth a lot.

In Germany being a blue-collar craftsman doesn't mean you are poor or belong to the lower middle class.
If you run your own company as a master craftsman, you can live very comfortable.

by mimi on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 08:43:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, master-craftsmen are pretty well paid here as well.  And I believe skilled tradesmen such as plumbers and electricians still make a nice living.  I have no idea how one gets into those trades, though.

When I was in school, if you weren't "academically inclined" they offered two vo-tech classes -- bricklaying and auto mechanics.  In the school district I live in, they currently offer welding and auto mechanics.  I believe there's also an off-campus computer networking class.  

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 12th, 2005 at 11:02:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here are some data to chew on.

There's been a fair amount of discussion of education issues in this thread (quite understandably), and so it may be useful to take a look at measures of child poverty. Unicef publishes Child poverty in rich countries 2005 which is really worth looking at. Unicef examines the situation in the richer countries of the world, which seems to fit the discussion here. The report also has a clear and useful discussion of measurement questions.

Here is a graph you won't find in the report, but which is based on data given p21:

Child poverty rate in percent, 2000 (threshold 50% of median income)
and change from 1991 to 2000

The graph is from the French economics monthly Alternatives Economiques, special number Les chiffres de l'économie 2006. Not online. Label translation/pasting mine.

What's immediately striking is that initial child poverty levels are similarly high in France, the UK, and the US, but that after social transfers (earned income tax credit, welfare benefits, etc) the situations are radically different. The French number jumps way down (though 7.5% is still 7.5% too much), the UK number by a more moderate amount, and the US number hardly at all. Now here we can fairly identify a difference, not so much in the existence of poverty, as in the treatment of poverty.

Here's a second graph, which is not based on the Unicef report, but on Eurostat figures (so no US, I'm afraid). This one also shows the before and after social transfers numbers, plus a measure of "persistent poverty", defined by Eurostat as living in poverty for at least four years together.

Alternatives Economiques, special number Les chiffres de l'économie 2006. Not online. Label translation/pasting mine.

Here again, initial poverty levels are fairly similar, but social transfers bring them down -- more in Germany than in France, for example (though these numbers are for 2001 and there may have been some change since). Useful: EU15 included.

These two graphs don't use the same measure of poverty (Unicef chooses 50% of median income, Eurostat 60% of median income), but we only need look at them relatively rather than absolutely.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Oct 13th, 2005 at 06:26:22 AM EST
afew, these are great - extraordinary even - graphs in that they convey very clearly the message. Please make a diary out of them.

Actually, if you authorise me, I think I would like to use them for a dKos diary for mximum exposure. Would you mind sending me the files for the graphs by e-mail.

(btw, I am still amazed that the WSJ  allowed a rag such as Alternatives Economiques to be quoted in their Op-Ed pages...)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Oct 13th, 2005 at 05:21:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Jérôme, and will send files.

Note, however, that this kind of post ends up at the end of a long thread because everyone piles into the "hot" debate higher up and doesn't have much appetite for looking at pdf files (though pdf files, it's true, are a pain). But I'm beginning to wonder if the professed appetite of some for data, metrics, comparison, etc, isn't a bit, shall we say, over-stated?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 02:02:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I, for one, very much appreciate the data, afew.  I don't usually comment on it, because I'm not always confident that I'm interpreting it correctly and don't know what to say.  But I always appreciate the statistics and graphs and having people like you and Jerome explain what it means.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 02:10:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Izzy. You know, when I said "some" I wasn't thinking of you. You've got your work cut out in this thread anyway!

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 03:27:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, when I encounter this thread, I feel myself becoming inert, lazy, and lacking in the necessary fortitude. ;-)

I really should be responding to more of the excellent comments in here.  And I see plenty to argue with, too, but the thought of backing up my statements takes the fun out of it -- I'm more of a storyteller anyway.

So thank goodness for you and Jerome and people like you bringing all this data -- it's the least I can do to say how much I appreciate it.  

There're also some other comments such as Gaianne's and DeAnander's that I've completely ignored because they're so brilliant and substantial that I mean to attempt to give them a deserving reply which I so far haven't mustered.  So now I'm inert, lazy, and guilty as well.

I actually didn't realize this thing would get so big.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 03:39:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I also second Jerome's idea of turning it into a diary.  It would be a shame to have it get lost in all this.  Even I'm having difficulty keeping track of the various threads of conversation in here!  I'd be more than happy to see several of these topics made into other diaries.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 02:13:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I did do a diary over at dKos using afew's graphs, and a few others:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/14/7283/9652

It did get recommended, but it garnered a lot less attention that my other diaries do these days, even the empty meta ones. Maybe we need to build a more compelling story around these numbers. Let's use them in a diary here and focus and exactly what kind of message we want to get through?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 05:54:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, thank you Jerome, I finally noticed it over there and the one at BooTrib as well.  You should tell us these things -- are you too modest, or have I perfected my omniscient routine?  ;-)

All kidding aside, it was an impressive diary.  As to your further suggestion, I'm more than willing to help with the story part if you feel it would be useful.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 06:33:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One thing is that DKos is American, and if you say "Poverty!" to Americans, even Americans on the left, a lot of them will just avoid the question. (The discussion here is different, partly because it built up from past threads, partly because this is a meeting-place outside of the American cultural zone).

Also maybe the different graphs needed more explanation. Some people love graphs, others run a mile when they see them. (I'm aware I didn't give a huge amount of explanation above, but in this thread, it didn't seem necessary -- there were demands to see data, and demands to compare with Europe, and I tried to present some respectable comparison material in a simple and expressive way.)

As to "story" I'm dubious about the use of the word. The MSM frame things in terms of stories or narratives. Sure, it catches people's attention more easily, which is why it's the rule in the commercial media. (And one of the great strengths of the blogos is that we're not commercial). But it tends to infantilize people, imo. God save us from the lists of over-dramatized diary titles we see on DKos and even Booman's, and the over-emotional reactions that they sometimes encourage (seems to me there's been an increase in this over the last few months).


When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 05:41:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I see your point about the media, afew, but I've been arguing for stories.  Perhaps we're seeing the same thing and calling it something different?

I think the media's job is to provide a narrative and context -- whenever we present a set of facts, we're telling a story.  Without narrative, everything's just a blob of isolated facts.  

In my view, this lack of either narrative or context is one of the big problems.  They tell personal stories sometimes.  They allow the political propagandists to tell their false stories, but otherwise they just report certain things out of context and the facts have little meaning.

I've actually been writing a post about this as it applies to Latin America.  We've had all these isolated reports -- uprisings in Bolivia and Ecuador, the back and forths with Chavez, removing Venezuela from our "compliant" category in the drug prohibition, Chavez moving his money to Europe -- it goes on and on, but what story is it telling?

Is it the story of an oppressed continent throwing off it's chains and being inspired by a good-hearted leader?  Is it the story of a wiley dictator stirring up rebellion?  Is it a build up to war or purely a political story?  What do all these moves mean and are they connected?

You probably know more in Europe than we do here.  Our press isn't connecting any of these dots.  In one week we learned (if we were paying very close attention) that Ecuador ousted their president and we also knew our gas prices went up.  And everyone heard about Pat Robertson calling for the assassination of Chavez.

But the press never told the story -- that Ecuador's uprising shut down oil production.  That they're one of our largest importers and the prices immediately went up.  That Chavez supported this move and Pat Robertson's remarks came the next day.

Anyway, all this to say I think telling stories is vital, but agree that the way the media has been doing it or not doing it is currently flawed.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 05:57:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The first thing to my mind is that narratives are imposed on us by those in power (political/military/corporate/financial) through the echo-chamber of the media - either compliant or manipulated, doesn't matter which. I think it's important to deconstruct and deny these narratives.

The second is that, though I think we should be clear about the message we want to give (what is this all about?), we need to be very wary (and very smart) in using narrative ourselves. To put it bluntly, we'd better be damned right in the story we choose to tell. It had better correspond to reality. Because we don't have the power they have to go on churning out hype. And because successful stories (by which I mean stories that grab people's imagination enough to move them even to action) are a responsibility.

Your example of Latin America is a good one. Dare we say that it's a continent rising up and throwing off its chains? That's a powerful narrative, but I wouldn't want to take the responsibility for trying to sell it. OTOH, stating the facts and linking up the dots (that the Ecuador uprising cut off oil supplies) corresponds to reality and tells the true story -- and therefore informs people usefully (which, we agree, the media are not doing).

I think what I'm saying is we need to dig out the facts and present them without manipulating them in some search for a compelling storyline. Otherwise we're just "framers". True stories is what we want, and, in a sense, they tell themselves...

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 05:31:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, afew, I was just going to let this slide off into oblivion, but this particular argument has been niggling at me and now that the diary has been yanked back for a last gasp (thank you Bob and Colman), I'll muster a response.

Actually, I did respond over the weekend, but lost the comment and didn't have the energy to reconstruct it (and I run almost entirely on hot air, for you energy experts).  And actually, the original was so nice!  I don't know how I did it, but I basically said I thought you were completely wrong in the most complimentary fashion.  I just know I can't be that sweet again, I just don't have it in me.

And the thing is that I have such a high opinion of your opinions, that I really don't want to just come right out and contradict you.  So I'll beg your forgiveness in advance and just say it:  I think facts rarely speak for themselves except in the most simple of situations and, if taken out of context, the human brain will invent a narrative if none is provided. This isn't laziness, it's just how the brain sorts and stores information and makes sense of the world.

Providing a narrative is simply telling the story.  It's the only way to provide context, history, perspective and our accumulated knowledge to the facts.   In my view, is one of the most important functions of the media.  Just because they've perverted their job is no reason to disdain the function.

Now, I will reiterate that this has nothing whatsoever to do with manipulating, lying, hyping, or churning out propaganda, although it can be used for those things.  So can books, so can papers, so can statistics, so can words -- but we don't advocate getting rid of them.  We make distinctions and judgments.

I think one of the reasons these false narratives have taken hold is because no one is articulating a true narrative to counter it.  Facts and data won't do it alone -- people need both.

We often wonder why people are so stupid that they believe the false narrative of steady, strong, Republican leadership -- it is because the media is not reporting the true narrative.  And we often opine that the facts and data are all out there, often right in the very articles that are saying the opposite -- but the facts alone are not doing the job because, in general, the media isn't telling the story of Republican crimes and avarice (although I'm hopeful this is changing).

Someone needs to provide the alternate narrative.  That's actually what we here on the blogs have been doing and what we should be pushing the big media to do -- tell the story that matches the facts.  If the true story is being told, it'll trump the false narrative every time.  I know that bad people have been taking advantage of the format, but we can no more do away with narrative than with communication.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 19th, 2005 at 05:20:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I went to your link and found you have to pay for the article. I wondered if you could tell me whether it had any stas/graphs for Australia, New Zealand etc., and if so, would you mind posting them either here, or emailing them to me?

I'd love to be able to compare what's going on in my neck of the woods to the other graphs you've posted here.

thanks, Imogen

"This can't possibly get more disturbing!" - Willow

by myriad (imogenk at wildmail dot com) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 06:18:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
at Unicef and look again. You can order a hard copy of the report (for free), and you can also download it for free as a PDF file (click on Download PDF to the right of View Cart). It's not dreary statistics, btw, it's well-presented and explained.

Australia and New Zealand are included.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 01:47:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, ok, cool! Sorry, I really had the impression you had to pay for it. I even don't mind reading (free) dreary statistics. ;-)

thanks for taking the time to reply.

"This can't possibly get more disturbing!" - Willow

by myriad (imogenk at wildmail dot com) on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 07:40:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In this afternoon's Le Monde, this big number, from a World Bank study:


En cinq ans, le nombre de pauvres a baissé de 40 millions en Europe de l'Est et dans l'ex-Union soviétique

In 5 years, the number of poor people in Eastern Europe and the FSU went down by 40 million

Cent deux millions de pauvres en 1998 en Europe de l'Est, 61 millions en 2003. C'est l'impressionnant décompte effectué par la Banque mondiale dans une étude, publiée mercredi 12 octobre, et qui s'intitule "Growth, Poverty and Inequality in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union" (Croissance, pauvreté et inégalités en Europe de l'Est et en ex-Union soviétique).

102 M in 1998, 61 M in 2003 are the impressive numbers published by the World Bank in "Growth, Poverty and Inequality in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union"

Pour effectuer son calcul, l'institution a choisi de retenir comme critère de pauvreté extrême celui de personnes vivant avec moins de 2 dollars par jour  et non celui, traditionnel, de 1 dollar  afin de tenir compte des dépenses additionnelles, notamment de vêtements et de chauffage, nécessaires pour vivre dans cette région froide.

The criteria for poverty was 2$/day, equivalent to 1$/day in less cold climates.

Alors que 20 % de la population vivaient dans la pauvreté en 1998, soit une personne sur cinq, ils n'étaient plus que 12 % en 2003 (une personne sur huit).

The poverty rate is down from 20% to 12%

(...)

Durant la période 1998-2003, la pauvreté a baissé dans tous les pays de la zone étudiée, sauf trois : Pologne, Lituanie et Géorgie.

During that period, poverty went down in all countries except three: Poland, Lithuania and Georgia.

(...)

Les économistes ont aussi passé en revue les mesures  non monétaires  de la pauvreté. "Les tendances de l'accès à l'éducation, aux soins de santé, à l'eau et au chauffage sont très variables.

The World Bank economists also looked at non-monetary criteria for poverty: access to education, healthcare, water and heating. Evolutions vary wildly.

(...)

Et ce sont plus de 150 millions d'individus qui étaient économiquement "vulné ra bles" , selon la Banque mondiale, c'est-à-dire qu'ils disposaient quotidiennement de moins de 4 dollars.

Poverty remains prevalent in the region.  There are an additional 150 million who live with less than 4$/day.



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Oct 14th, 2005 at 07:09:14 PM EST