A lousy Turkish T-Shirt.

by kcurie
Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 12:58:32 PM EST

Yes I was in Turkey, so what? what can an Spaniard explain, say or inform this community about Turkey and the future of the EU?  Spain got into the EU in the middle 80s after painful negotiations.  With Turkey they would more painful and...UUUUUh maybe even zzzzz, this goes nowhere. Let's face it, most of the diaries on Turkey have been just dead right and very insightful. They discussed in depth any angle you can imagine. So I am not writing anything new if I follow this path.  

So, is it possible for me to say really anything interesting at all? No, not really.  Unless, of course, you realize that buying and using a T-Shirt in Istanbul may become an enlightening experience. Or maybe not.

More below...


Midday, sunny, nice day in the Bosphorus. It is Turkey, it is Istanbul though I am starting to doubt if the rest of Turkey has anything to do with Istanbul...something in the air tells me that it probably isn't. I still do not know exactly why, some memories come and go, memories about me and  Spain when I was a child, and  they seem to indicate that they are not the same... or maybe it just makes sense that a city of 11 million people is not like a little town close to the Iranian border.

Still with the impression that Istanbul may represent a great chunk of Turkey but not all Turkey (I am so smart I scare myself sometimes) I decide is time to go to the big Bazaar and buy the T-Shirt I promised one friend. It is time to change some money. Abusive change in the hotel, so I go to a change office. They hardly speak English but we manage. I should write that down, nobody speaks English here, not even the basic rudimentary words, as it is now the case in most of Spain. It really looks like Spain in the 80s.

So I must take a taxi to the Bazaar... upps, which one I take? the brand new ones or the old ones? Half the fleet of taxis are new cars, half of them quite old cars, no middle ground. The old cars are all the same, they remind me the Seat 600 that was so widespread in Spain in the 70s and was smoothly changed to imported cars in the 80s.

I go for a new taxi...once in the Bazaar I realize that tourists are everywhere, and they shop and they bargain!!! by default, everybody,everybody bargains, nobody takes the price at face value. I cannot imagine that in Spain now, "you do not like the price? Do not piss me off and piss off!!" Quite similar to the markets in the early 80s in Spain though, but I hardly remember, I was not even ten years old.

So, which one, let's see. I ask the price, they still use the million old liras and the new lira, with a ratio of one old million is a single unit now. I use always the new format, people seem happy with that (some inflation maybe?). So ten liras.. ok, well  maybe I can find it cheaper. I go to another shop. I find a nicer T-Shirt, how much? uups 18 YTL (more than in Spain, are you kidding??), no way. Ok, he bargains. I understand he says 10 YTL, but when I want to pay they expect 10 euros (16 YTL). No, no sorry. "You can not change your mind" they say in symbolic language. "Of course I can, I saw the same T-Shirt for 10 Liras two blocks down!(false)" I say. "Ok I take the 10 Liras " (really, that easy?) he answers me back once he hears my English sentence (are all they pretending they do not understand English when they do indeed understand??). OK I hate discussing and lying for nonsense, so I take it. I could have paid in euros, they really liked euros, even coins!!!! If people accept a Euro coin it means the Euro is a really powerful coin. It reminds me of the D-Mark in Spain in the 80s, did we take coins...?? yes indeed.

So, time to try the t-shirt on me, but where??? Ok I look around, do people seem to like  it if I put it on now in the middle of the street? Mmmmhh I am not sure, I do not ask if they would like or dislike it, I do not care, my question is, would they say something if they see me (let's say it, wonderfully and handsomely) half nude? I can not take my bets, I would do it in Spain, no problem, but ei I would not take my chances, really, why not? Yes, I am tourist...so I take y bet and no problem.... Yes if you are a tourist they must think I am weird, it really looks like Spain in the 80s

It is time to go to a mosque with my T-shirt.  Do I look like I can get into a mosque??  It is not a problem, it is a not disrespectful T-Shirt. Sure I can. And then I see a bunch of women with a colorful cover for the head (yeah I know I know the real name is Hijaab but common I am trying to give so novelesque spirit to the diary so I am not supposed to know). The colorful ladies go together with other women without cover. At the same time they also go with older women with black covers. They seem fine with both...but I did not see any black cover woman with a non-cover. I do not know exactly what this means but it really reminds me of the city girl-little town girl in the early 80s in Spain, again!!! and it also reminds me that I love anthropology. And my grand grand mother also dressed a cover for the head, and she was catholic, but no one seems to remember that.  I remember the Movida, the cultural revolution in Spain where suddenly we went from having a lot of children to have none, to hardly ever have sex outside marriage to actually not getting married at all. We even went from women not deciding anything to , well earning less money but deciding some of the time (specially in sex, but this is another anthropological discussion about Spanish sexual customs which is out of the scope of this diary). Bless we/they do.  A Movida in Turkey?? Well, Taksim district could very well be the next centre of...no, no, it still needs some work to do though. Let me think about it.  No, no answer comes to mind. They need weird music groups and strange cinema directors, among other things. A pity I do not understand anything in the radio. Any weird Turkish group as Alaska in Dinarama would make the deal, what about another Pedro!!!??? In the world of cinema, is one Pedro director in the world enough?.

Time to eat something, time to visit a poor district. I walk for a couple of hours in the the most poor direction I find. Until I reach it: It is my childhood neighborhood, the same one but different, it is there, right in the middle of Istanbul at a few km from Sultanhemeit. And I have a T-Shirt and I am weird and they all know I am probably a tourist. I enter a bakery, I buy a wonderful bread, it tastes good, excellent!!  not like the bread now in Spain where it has no taste . I recall the bread in Spain in the 80s, now everything belongs to a chain, all is insipid, that was not the case in the past, and this is not the case here. They look at me, at my T-Shirt (an old bloke and a younger one). The young lad asks "where?".. Where I am from? I guess they asked that but the young boy (below 30) only knows the word "Where?" I say Barcelona and he replies "Barcelona good, Besiktas football" and smiles, and I smile back and I already now he does not know any other word when I asked about the last game of the team and he repeats "good Besiktas and Barcelona teams".  I leave making a lot of reverences. It was late at night. And I am happy. I go chanting down a half dirty street back to some place where I can take a taxi far away from a Spanish neighborhood in the 80s, or was it turkey in  2005?

In the plane back home I got the answer. It must have been Turkey not Spain. A cell phone never rang in a catholic church in the Spanish 80s but it did in an Istanbul mosque in the 00s as I witnessed (despite all the warnings about it), he had to stop his prayer to switch the f--king phone off.

Some people just do not read the signs at the entrance. Will Europe do the same?

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Interesting perspective and lovely story. Thanks!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 03:17:45 PM EST
Thanks!!!

It was really difficult to say something interesting about Turkey after reading the posts and diaries here (you among the main authors on the subject).

So I think explaining impressions, feelings and notions will be better. I hoped more people would like it. So, indeed thanks.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 04:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fine story, I really enjoyed it!

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 04:40:59 PM EST
Exactly what I wanted. More than a serious reflection, a story. I am glad you also find that this was a good approach.

Thanks

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 04:54:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A great story -- I almost felt like I was there.  I even got a little nervous for you at the thought of haggling!  I'll argue with almost anyone about almost anything, but haggling over prices terrifies me.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 15th, 2005 at 06:41:30 PM EST
Exactly, why there are some people like us that hate anything related with fixing a price?

I really do not like it, I hate it actually. If the other one is clearly poorer I refuse to do it. Otherwise, if I have to do it, I can do it but I hate to.

I join your club.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 04:27:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A nice story with some keen insights. Istanbul is just such a wonderful city.
by gradinski chai on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 03:46:28 AM EST
it really looks like Spain in the 80s

This is a great diary. And really, if the EU could absorb Spain and Portugal over the objections of the French farmers in 1986 and a good chunk of Eastern Europe in 2004 over the objections of the German workers, we can absorb Turkey by 2020 over the objections of the "Europe is Christian" crowd.

As for strict geographic definitions of Europe, Turkey and Israel are part of UEFA, and we all know which of UEFA and the EU is more important :-)

Spain (and Catalunya in particular) has a special interest in establishing close cooperation between the EU and the Mediterranean Basin. Apart from Turkey and Israel, that includes Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Lybia, Algeria and Morocco. How close that will be only time will tell. Right now, not one of these countries satisfies the democracy and human rights litmus test for EU membership, but neither did Spain, Portugal or Greece even in the 1970s.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 03:51:15 AM EST
I love the Christian crowd comment.

Although I only tried to give impressions... je je

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 04:24:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep, I also noticed the "metaphor", comparing Spain and Turkey, as far as countries entering into the EU...if one can do it, so can another, and I'm sure there would be changes in turkey as a result too.

Kcurie, keep writing, your articles are awesome!

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!

by whataboutbob on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 06:34:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The idea that there will be changes in turkey after and during the EU talks was more than an impression, a strong feeling I would say. Of course I would need to come back after five years and test this feeling.

Maybe I am wrong, but in principle a I would agree with you and Migeru.

On a side note, you make blush.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 07:36:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A great diary, kcurie, and like Migeru and others have commented, it's a nice reminder of past EU incorporations and that all the fears about letting "those countries" in were unnecessary in the end. Can anyone even imagine an EU now that does not include Spain and Portugal or Greece? Turkey I'm sure will also prove to be a positive addition.

Also, you've added more fuel to my must-visit-Turkey fire! ;-) Thanks.

by wheylona on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 08:31:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I will put more fire.

It is really worth a visit. Of course if you like archaeology it seems Capadoccia is better (I would say, although have never been there), but if you like culture, imperial history and anthropology, Istanbul is the place to go.

I will always tell people to visit more than the standard districts, specially if they have no important monument. I only could visit one and it was worthy!!!

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 10:08:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it's important to note that Spain, Portugal, and Greece were fascist dictatorships up to and into the '70s. And under which political system the new East European members were living till the end of the '80s.

Btw, I heard a comment on French radio by someone who'd been to Istanbul recently, and according to him there's a real kewl scene there. I didn't register the names of a hip part of town he mentioned, but he also talked about big night clubs by the sea, etc.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 08:49:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I knew there could be something similar to the Movida going on but I could not detect it. It passed under the radar.

Good to hear from you that the contrary is the case. Pity I did not have a guide. You always need a guide for these things. And by guide , I mean a local young that teaches you the proper places. Unfortunately I do not know anybody in Istanbul and I was alone so.....

Hopefully in a few years we will listen a little of turkish electro-techno with different mixtures as the turkish people already produce and dance in Germany...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 10:13:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The guy on the radio compared it with the Movida, I'd forgotten to say...

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 11:27:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great!!!

Sometimes reality beats your best hopes.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 11:34:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As for strict geographic definitions of Europe, Turkey and Israel are part of UEFA, and we all know which of UEFA and the EU is more important :-)

Obligatory explanation round for non-Europeans (especially across the pond): UEFA is the European football (sorry won't use the US name) association; the European Cup (for national teams) and the UEFA Champions League (for the best clubs from all countries) are right up behind the FIFA World Cup and the Olympics as the most-watched TV events.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Oct 17th, 2005 at 05:00:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent diary. Thank you.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Oct 16th, 2005 at 10:59:31 AM EST
Top-notch diary.

ET was so far the place of numbers grumblers, but with you, we have the arrival of the first diarist who really can write! I look forward for more.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Oct 17th, 2005 at 04:56:23 PM EST
So... if Turkey is admitted to the EU will their bread become tasteless?

What is this persistent connection between corporate / imperial globalisation and really, really bad food?

Is really, really bad food an inevitable concomitant of Empire?  Was British cooking so incredibly indigestible in the Victorian through Edwardian eras because it was the height of Empire?

Will American food get any better if it has to cede the
500 Pound Gorilla chair to China or India?  Will China's or India's national cuisines go down the tubes if they manage to score the King of the Global Castle hat?

[only half joking....]

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon Oct 17th, 2005 at 08:30:34 PM EST
More power, more development, worst food.
Universal law well-known by scientists all around the planet.

Fortunately, in Spain there are some pockets of resistance (to the Empire) where the food is excellent!!!!

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 05:22:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Spain we need to get out of the habit of drinking UHT (long-life) milk, me cago en la Leche Pascual (Leche Pascual be damned).

I remember when my mother would send me down to the store to return empty glass bottles (cascos). Non-returnable glass was touted as a great "advance", which is just another word for "externality".

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 05:36:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
awful, milk is awful.

Useless and even harmful for some kind of people.

Dead on!!!!!

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 07:23:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is this persistent connection between corporate / imperial globalisation and really, really bad food?

The agri-food industry?

Was British cooking so incredibly indigestible in the Victorian through Edwardian eras because it was the height of Empire?

It seems to me we had lorst the Empire by 1960, yet school meals at my Midlands grammar school in the sixties remain etched (at least) in my memory as an absolute culinary nadir, and I'm being polite. The kind of thing one stores up to remind oneself that anything's better than going back to that. And so, a paradoxical source of Monty-Pythonesque joy. Funny, being British.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Oct 18th, 2005 at 08:16:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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