European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

american bloodlust: can anyone explain it to me?

by edrie
Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:00:25 AM EST

tonite, here in california - the state just committed murder in my name. not with my permission, but it did it anyway.

stanley tookie williams was executed by the state and was pronounced dead at 12:35 am, after a prolonged and macabre ritual of state-sanctioned euthanasia.

i don't understand. i am not trying to debate the guilt or innocence of williams, i am trying to understand why my country has such need for bloodletting!

whether here or in iraq or afghanistan or on the mean streets of l.a., n.y., s.f. or podunk, usa - we seem obsessed with killing and punishment, hatred and fear. we feel a need to exact vengence on those who oppose us.

what happened to this nation that we have developed this mindset? was it the early threats of a people fighting insurgency on their land - as the intruders from overseas raped and pillaged their homeland? did we find the killing exciting? was it greed for the land, the resources, the treasure? did we really believe that just because we wanted those things, does that mean we have the right to just take them?

this "wild west" attitude carrys over with the mindless policies spewing from washington these days - iraq has oil, we WANT that oil, well, we'll just take it!

the iraqi war never never never had anything to do with hussein - it has been oil from the getgo - and the rest of the world knows it. my question is why don't americans get it?

please, i beg of you - from your perspective around the world, can you tell us what the hell is wrong with us? america needs to go on the couch - we need a good analysing - how would you like to start. i, for one, am willing to listen - since, obviously, I don't get it, either!

it's the wee hours here - so i may leave you for a while and check back in the morning.

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Poll

Votes: 15
Results	\|	Other Polls

american bloodlust: can anyone explain it to me? | 61 comments (61 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Point of view (4.00 / 3)

from your perspective around the world, can you tell us what the hell is wrong with us?

I'm American, living in Europe, so my point of view doesn't matter with respect to your question.

I just want to say that I love where I'm living now, but I'm homesick for my country of origin.

I hate the American government.

I love the US, though; I miss the mountains in my state, the desert, the quiet.

Fuck anyone who condemns Americans across the board and cannot separate Americans themselves from their corrupt government.

edrie, I'm not ranting at you, don't get me wrong ;-)

Just a general rant.

I am American and I don't want to kill people.

And please realize that Europeans don't have squeaky clean non-violent histories either.

Just a note.

by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:07:29 AM EST

i really DO understand (4.00 / 3)

where you're coming from! i am american with roots on both parents sides that go back to 1735 and 1737. i love what this country has stood for in the past - not everything, but the idea of a dream.

it makes me heavy with dispair to see what we are becoming - where we are headed - and i don't know what to do to stop it - or if it can even BE stopped!

two years ago in redlands, ca - i was selling at their wonderful farmer's market downtown. it rained - and so it was slow with plenty of time to talk to the brave souls in the rain. i was struck by a german immigrant - older than me (i'm 60) - and after thanking her for her government's stance on iraq, we talked politics a bit.

then, she startled me when she became very grave and said, "bush is your hitler!" - i realized that she had first hand knowledge of how a country slips away from its citizens. this is my fear for america.

as we seek more and more bloodsport - we are losing our very soul - that which america claimed it represented - even when not practiced.

what happened? how did we let it slip away? and, more importantly, HOW do we get it back?

by edrie on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:31:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

grrr... DEspair, NOT dispair.... it's late - i'm (none / 0)

not paying attention to da fingers - GOTTA start running spellcheck!

by edrie on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:32:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i really DO understand (none / 0)

Two years ago in Riverside I was at See's Candies with my mother and the gentleman behind us in the line interrupted our chat. He looked like an Air Force veteran form WWII (don't ask me why, to me he just did). Anyway, he started by asking us whether we were from Spain and pointing out our Spanish sounded very different from Mexican. Then, trying to be friendly, he congratulated us on Aznar's support for Bush's Iraq war. All hell broke loose. "Aznar's Iraq policy is opposed by 90% of the population" "He's the president, not you, so he knows better". As the conversation turned from the polite to the political his face grew redder and redder (I didn't notice, my mother told me this later) and both our voices louder. He then, predictably, brought up 9/11. "3000 people died". "How many people need to die in Iraq and Afghanistan to compensate for that?" "as many as necessary to make america safe?" "Is 100 times as many enough?" "As many as necessary" "1000 times? "As many as necessary" "A million times?" "As many as necessary". I pointed out that he was advocating killing half the world's population if necessary and cut the conversation short.

That was the worst Xmas shopping of my life. If you're going to be "polite" to a foreigner, stay away from politics or do your homework.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

thank you, migeru (none / 0)

for taking to task an american idiot!

and thank you for all of spain for having the good sense to see through bush's insanity!

i found that whenever i encounter another nationality, i'd rather LISTEN than talk - i want to know what their opinion might be - from outside our borders - a fresh perspective. i have always come away richer for the encounters - i think that is why i posted this diary here instead of on one of the american blogs (ok, i DID go to kos first and it was down, but then i realized that would be preaching to the choir - and if i came here, i could acually LEARN something new!

riverside - redneck - oops! sorry it wrecked your shopping - but enjoy the moment - it isn't often you get a chance to really educate an idiot!

;->

by edrie on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:52:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: thank you, migeru (none / 1)

Thanks for your support, but I did not come out of that encounter feeling as good as you.

I have said this on DKos once before, but I have a feeling that I got to enjoy the last good year of the USA. I flew in on Labour Day weekend of 2000 and felt at home. After 9/11 things soured up at the blink of an eye.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 05:59:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

about the last good year.. (none / 0)

i am hoping it wasn't the "last" - but only a detour!

yesterday i had an interesting exchange with a young man - 25 - regarding the use of nuclear weapons. he supported "tactical" weapon use - BUT what i realized is his generation grew up without the benefit of my generation's experience in the "real" world of imminent nuclear threat.

i also realized that very little is taught about the effects of nuclear strikes - the fallout, the windborn fallout that ruins countries and populations that were not the target.

from this revelation, i've realized that MY generation has failed to teach this generation of the perils we survived - the cold war, mccarthyism, segregation, suppression of women, religion, etc. - once we grew "out" of those states (thinking it was a done deal - over and finished) - we became complacent.

as our nation slides back, or in some cases, PUSHED back into these ugly states of being by those politicians and corporatists who hated their implementation, we didn't recognize what was happening.

i am beginning to think that the solution AND our salvation lies in the collective memories of the post wwII generation - the boomers - the ones of us who were so preoccupied with the "me" generation that we forgot to share with the next ones what it was like prior to the cataclysmic changes of the '60s.

we need to talk about what it was like, we need to teach this generation - the milinials - what "pleasantville" was really like!

i copied some of the old songs into that diary last nite - and was struck by the words of our generation: the sound of silence, the songs of the greats - joan baez, dylan, the beatles (eleanor rigby was my epiphany) and more. we need to go back to that time and share what we learned.

hopefully, it won't be too late!

by edrie on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 06:22:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Squeaky clean history (none / 1)

There is no appeal to history and no justification in other's behaviour for what is happening on our watch.

What is wrong? Take your pick, but I think it starts in ignorance. The ignorant failure to see the other.

Fear grows in the dark and don't they know it. Fear drives out reason and temperance. I look into their eyes and all I see is animal emotion.

Keep on is all we can do. I try to talk to the kids within my sphere. The only hope.

by melvin on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 06:49:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Go Dutch? (none / 0)

.
krijg de kolere

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY

by Oui on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:22:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point of view (4.00 / 3)

Sorry, but that's obviously a red herring. The question does not regard the comparative histories of the Unites States versus "the rest of the civilized world" (e.g. all of Europe, Canada, etc, etc..). It is about the amount of violence, barbarism and bloodlust that, yes, [b] the American people [/b] engage in, vote for, support with their tax dollars or otherwise condone and manifest as a culture versus "the rest of the civilized world.

When the question is interpreted properly in those terms, the answer to all of the diarists questions regarding whetre the US, as a cultural phenomon in he present day and age, is more full of bloodlust and hateful vindictiveness than most other civilized nations seems to me to be self-evident.

Just to clarify: This is coming from an American living in Italy for the last five or six years.

I have generally abandoned al participation in blogs and political discussion regarding the States, in fact, because, after extremely exhaustive analysis and reflection on such matters, I have come to the horrifying conclusion that the fundamnatal problem lies not with the pols and representives of that nation but is deeply socio-cultural and needs to be adressed at that level.

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 09:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Violence in America: we do it for your own good (none / 1)

America has been a violent country from the beginning--think slavery. American Christianity, too, has been violent, even murderous, from the beginning--think Salem witch trials.

In every case, the violence has been cloaked in righteousness.

This is not the story they teach in American schools. But it is the story.

Pogo: We have met the enemy, and he is us.

by d52boy on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 06:34:12 AM EST

Re: Violence in America: we do it for your own goo (4.00 / 2)

American Christianity, too, has been violent, even murderous, from the beginning

LOL compared to Europe?

by MarekNYC on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:53:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Violence in America: we do it for your own goo (none / 1)

Europe had a head start.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Violence in America: we do it for your own goo (none / 1)

Considering what happened in the Spanish Civil War I really don't think that's a convincing argument, and from a Spaniard no less.

America's got a lot of issues with violence, but in terms of religious violence its record is excellent.

by MarekNYC on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Violence in America: we do it for your own goo (none / 1)

Maybe we need a dispassionate discussion of the roots of Spanish anticlericalism, but that's a matter for another diary.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: american bloodlust? (none / 0)

No question that taking a murderer's life needs to be considered seriously. but bloodlust? I think not. Frankly, I'm glad I'm not Arnie--pulling the trigger on a man's life might be too much for me. But if ever some one deserved this--he never expressed any sorrow for his victims.

Victim's Family Says No Clemency for Tookie Williams
Albert Owens Was Murdered in 1979 at the Age of 26

Lora Owens believes ex-gang member "Tookie" Williams should be executed for the 1979 murder of her stepson, Albert. (ABC NEWS)

Dec. 8, 2005 -- Celebrities and activists have rallied around death-row inmate "Tookie" Williams -- a murderer and former gang member who was nominated by his supporters for the Nobel Peace Prize (commit murder and be considered for the Nobel Peace Prize? what have we come to?) while in prison -- but the stepmother of one of his victims believes Williams should not be saved from his execution scheduled for Tuesday.

"I think he [Williams] is the same cold-blooded killer that he was then and he would be now if he had the opportunity again," said Lora Owens whose stepson, Albert, was killed by Williams during a convenience store robbery 26 years ago.

Blog: Manny Medrano Analysis
Related: Tookie Williams: Gang Founder Versus Nobel-Nominated Peacemaker

Cookie Wars
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"Albert was a young man that was so full of life," Owens said. "He had an infectious laugh. His eyes would sparkle. He was just full of energy and he had the concept that if you wanted to do anything, you just had to work for it."

Albert Owens was 26 and working as a 7-Eleven clerk when he was shot twice in the back on Feb. 27, 1979. Williams was convicted of the murder as well as the murders of three others in a separate robbery in 1979, and sentenced to death. He has been on death row since 1981.

In prison, Williams has written nine books warning children and teenagers about the danger of gang life, and has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize fives times and for the Nobel Prize for literature once. Several celebrities, including actor Jamie Foxx and rapper Snoop Dog, have rallied behind Williams, but Owens believes Williams still deserves to die.

"I think the celebrities are just abusing their popularity, their access to the media," Owens said. "To them it's a script; to me, it's life."

Owens said she was also frustrated by the anti-death penalty activists who are lobbying for Williams' life.

"If there is a controversy against the death penalty, then they need to go to the legislature and work to get it changed, but don't stand behind a killer like Williams because then they don't care what he did," she said. "It could have been your child instead of our child."

California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is expected to review Williams' case today in a closed-door clemency hearing. If Williams' sentence is not commuted to life in prison, Owens says she plans to attend the execution.

"It's not going to be an easy thing," Owens said. "I don't celebrate this man's death, but I believe Albert expects it and I will be there for my son."

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:24:56 AM EST

Re: american bloodlust? (4.00 / 3)

And that's why we have a judicial system: to mete out justice, and not revenge. You cannot expect anything else from the grief-stricken family, but you can expect something else from the judiciary in a democracy.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 09:45:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: american bloodlust? (none / 1)

Celebrities and activists have rallied around death-row inmate "Tookie" Williams -- a murderer and former gang member who was nominated by his supporters for the Nobel Peace Prize (commit murder and be considered for the Nobel Peace Prize? what have we come to?) while in prison -- but the stepmother of one of his victims believes Williams should not be saved from his execution scheduled for Tuesday.

Typically out of context. This is the kind of thing that others call you a troll for. The Peace Prize nominations were for his writings against gang membership, not for murder:
Wikipedia: Stanley Williams

After being released from solitary confinement, Williams gained world-wide attention and praise for his work in prison, including the publication of children's books advocating non-violence and alternatives to gangs.

Whether or not you think that merits a Prize is not the point, the point is that the person you execute 25 years after the crime is very different from that which committed it, in this case as in many others.

By the way, if Henry Kissinger could win the Nobel Peace Price, why couldn't Tookie be nominated?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 09:53:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you can't really believe this, (none / 0)

The Peace Prize nominations were for his writings against gang membership, not for murder.

So there are a 1000 books and articles written against gang membership, and tookie just happens to win the Nobel peace prize. Give me a break!!! that is absurd!! Of course it's a statement against the death penalty.

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you can't really believe this, (4.00 / 3)

It's not a statement against the death penalty but a statement for the possibility of rehabilitation in prison, which is something that the American criminal justice system seems to be pholosophically opposed to.

Remember the birdman of Alcatraz?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:39:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You can't really believe this,either (none / 0)

commit murder and be considered for the Nobel Peace Prize?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:40:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can't really believe this,either (none / 0)

You have to believe it,,,,it happened. I just find it to be another one of life's absurdities. btw, I didn't properly lay out the comment you are "trolling" me for--meant to "blockquote" the quote part. but I wonder if you're missing my opening lines

No question that taking a murderer's life needs to be considered seriously. but bloodlust? I think not. Frankly, I'm glad I'm not Arnie--pulling the trigger on a man's life might be too much for me. But if ever some one deserved this--he never expressed any sorrow for his victims.

I'm not a proponent of the death penalty. I just don't like the "bloodlust" statement of this diary--ie. "oh aren't we horrible here in America". If someone could deserve the death penalty, tookie is there--brutal murders, no remorse ever shown, and the list goes on.

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:54:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can't really believe this,either (none / 1)

There must be a better way to argue against the use of the word "bloodlust" than to recite pro-death-penalty arguments.

Like you, I didn't find a reasonable poll answer to choose, by the way.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:56:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yes, this is true. (none / 0)

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:01:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes, this is true. (none / 0)

Uncork the bubbly! We agree on something!

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:02:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes, this is true. (4.00 / 2)

actually, we agree on quite a bit. I did go a little off on this one. Your point above is really right on--I was overly defensive on what I saw as an unjust attack on America,,,and ended up seemingly defending something I don't believe in.

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes, this is true. (4.00 / 2)

Now that we have found common ground, we can start unwinding the argument and maybe we can address why the US is out of step with every other OECD country (except Japan) on this issue.

By the way, compare this map (taken from the diary The Axis of Impunity

with this other map (taken from the Wikipedia article on the use of death penalty worldwide)

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:17:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes, this is true. (none / 0)

I've got to run out and (heaven forbid) work a little, so I'll respond later. But if it's not too difficult to explain, how do you post those wonderful maps?

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:25:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes, this is true. (4.00 / 2)

See the New User Guide at the top-right of the site. It will tell you how to post images.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 09:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yes, this is true. (4.00 / 3)

I don't think the reasons Americans support the death penalty are overly complex. Obviously the following statements are generalizations (clearly not true of every American) and aimed at the majority of Americans--but like all generalizations, they are wrong for many people. That being said, the majority of Americans feel that the death penalty deters crime. Most statistics I have seen, and reasoned papers, do not support this feeling. But I choose the word feeling, because the reasoning is intuitive, and not necessarily scientific. A majority of Americans think that punishment deters crime, and therefore the harshest of punishments deter the harshest of crimes. for this majority it's just a core belief, and I don't think that belief will change for generations.

second, as you know there, is a large percentage of Americans that are Christian, and believe in God. They believe, once again generalizing, that the Bible does not say "Thou shalt not kill", it says "Thou shall not murder". Obviously not true for all Christians--note the Catholic Church's opinion to the contrary. But once again, for the majority, there is not a moral ban on taking a life under extreme circumstances.

Third, most Americans find brutal murders, such as those committed by tookie,,,such as murdering a child,,,to be so heinous as to deserve the death penalty. As being the rightful punishment.

And fourth, it is in the culture.
1.People grow up with the bad guys being killed in the movies.
2.Guns and hunting are clearly in the culture--moreso in the South and MidWest, but to some degree everywhere. (Politicians such as Kerry rediscover this all the time.)
3.Most view it as in the constitution--the second amendment, that is.
4.And the majority feel that America's freedoms have been paid for dearly, by American heroes, who died for these freedoms, or killed others for them. As you know, there is a concept of "just wars", so why not a concept of "just deaths".
(There was really no possibility that Arnold was going to overturn Tookie's sentence. California, a very blue state, fairly recently supported the death sentence in a statewide vote.) These aren't the most logical of points, but they are a description of the culture.

In my view there are two possible reasons this could change in the next 20 years. First, if it is shown conclusively that innocent people are being executed, that will IMHO violate an American principle that is also cherished--fairness. The state of Illinois recently changed its stance due to this concern--though I think that may have been an executive order, rather than backed in an overall vote. Second is a pragmatic reason--it costs more to take a case through to the death penalty than it does to keep the prisoner in jail for life.

But I wouldn't put money on it happening.

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 06:03:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can't really believe this,either (none / 1)

You have to believe it,,,,it happened.

May I remind you that just because one thing follows another it does not mean that there is a causal relationship? Post hoc ergo propter hoc is not sound reasoning.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you can't really believe this, (none / 1)

He didn't win, he was nominated. And of course some nominations are political, that's the point sometimes. And it worked -- people are certainly talking about it, aren't they? And in all of this arguing, one fact holds true -- the more people are educated about the death penalty, the more they are against it.

One thing this particular case has done, is given us an opportunity to really look at our ideas about redemption -- a concept that's given some lip-service now and then, but largely ignored. Tookie did some really bad things in the world. After his imprisonment, he did some really good things. That's the point being made -- what does his death accomplish? As a society, what was our goal here? Do we believe in redemption at all? or only retribution?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:46:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yes, of course you are correct. I mis spoke, (none / 0)

in writing, and meant nominated.

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:58:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

taking a man's life is horrible! (none / 1)

Right?

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:36:29 AM EST

Re: taking a man's life is horrible! (none / 1)

Anyone who advocates the death penalty should have an internship as an executioner.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:37:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: taking a man's life is horrible! (none / 0)

I agree. tookie should explain that to the victim's family.

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:41:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: taking a man's life is horrible! (none / 1)

Justice was done when the killer was convicted. At the execution, vengeance was meted out. If the state wants to afford the family the right to vengeance, they should do it with their own hands, not aseptically standing behind a one-way mirror.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:53:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

OK. I agree that might be a good idea for (none / 0)

the family to decide on mercy--and many families, after years of reflection, might decide that is the right choice--afterall, Jesus would forgive.

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:59:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK. I agree that might be a good idea for (none / 1)

Who would Jesus execute, who would Jesus bomb?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:06:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

that was my point. (none / 0)

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:19:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that was my point. (none / 0)

I always found the pervasive "what would Jesus do?" meme a little peculiar, but if it can be turned on its head in order to drive Americans away from Leviticus, I'm all for it.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 02:22:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

o better off not voting with one of your (none / 0)

spurious choices. CHECK X

by wchurchill on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 07:49:15 AM EST

more bloodthirsty than other civilized nations? (none / 0)

.
With excuses for generalization --

... more bloodthirsty: definitely yes.
America a civilized nation: definitely no!

Both expressions do not combine. Just like fire and ice or Christian values and a war of choice.

I found Moore's film on violence, weapons and Columbine High very telling, especially his comparison of Detroit, Michigan and across the lake in Canada.

Just this week I heard on BBC World radio, bits of information on a new book written on the topic of bullying, the psychology of the urge for violence analyzed. Her analysis resulted on a single word: contempt. I found her words very interesting and I shall try to find the title of her book.

See link to The Bully, the Bullied, and the Bystander
written by Barbara Coloroso.

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Europe has learned the lessons of inhumanity, destruction and two World Wars in the 20th century.

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY

by Oui on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:13:36 AM EST

Re: more bloodthirsty than other civilized nations (none / 1)

The point of Moore's film was, in the end, not violence or weapons but fear. His concluding line is something to the effect of "a nation so out of control with fear shouldn't have such ready access to weapons".

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:18:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Community Support (none / 0)

.
Lack of support within the community - town - city - state - nation for the families in need. Also quality and funds for education in ghettos with deprivation, poverty and children left behind.

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY

by Oui on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:29:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Community Support (none / 0)

The families in need apparently don't have the "protestant work ethic" they need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

In the US they are fond of the "protestant work ethic" which they claim they inherited from the Dutch. Any thoughts on that?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: more bloodthirsty than other civilized nations (none / 0)

Good point and huge contrast with Canada, where gun ownership is pretty much at the same levels as the US and yet has much lower gun crime rates. Difference is that mutual trust is much higher in Canada.

We have no eternal allies and we have no perpetual enemies.
Our interests are perpetual and eternal...
Lord Palmerston, 1848

by Francois in Paris on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 09:36:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: more bloodthirsty ? (none / 0)

europe hasnt learned anything....history will repeat itself...it already is...there is plenty of bloodlust going on in europe....bloodlust isnt an american thing, its a human thing.

by anna in philly (jrsygir1@aol.com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:34:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: more bloodthirsty ? (none / 1)

Europe learnt a lesson 60 years ago. Those who learnt it are dead or dying. The US got a constitution 230 years ago. Few seems to remember what the point of that was. Spain woke up from its own nightmare 30 years ago. We are starting to forget.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 08:41:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

History lessons - do they help? (none / 0)

Don't forget that such lessons are learned just by one or two generations, those who actually lived through those periods of violence and inhumanity and may be the next generation of those people's children.

The third generation learns nothing much, they have to rely on book learning and you don't learn what you need to be non-violent, humane and courageous through books and history lessons, even if you try.

Reality proves that you don't end up to prevent the outbreaks of wars, violence etc. even with all the learning from history. Every one might believe he has learned from history, but it turns out all the time all people learn something different from history and continue to fight over their different view-points for ever. Contrary I find the constant justification for current political view points on the basis of what happened in the past, a reason for more outbreaks of wars and violence, then less.

As far as I understand it, President Bush started the war in Iraq, because he had learned his history lessons from World War II. They bring up the analogy in their mission for the spread of freedom and democracy in the Middle East with what they had learned from Hitler etc. I don't think that other people believe to have learned the same thing out of WWII. Where did it help?

One should study the statistics. Is there a relationship between the educational level of countries to their amount of non-violence in their own societies, the number of wars those contries didn't cause, participate in or prevented?

by mimi on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 09:56:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: american bloodlust: (none / 1)

Probably the best insight still comes from M. Mead. She is still the best...

Violence is a language.. a way to tell things... americans use it much more to express things...why? Well this fall into the category of understanding violence..one of the most fascinating stuff in anthropology , sociology and even biology.

So, the reason are social..and the future of the american violence depends on their society...

But I guess you are more worried about how to stop a culture of violence. It is basically he same mechanisms that the one used for changing one language to another in a certain territory. It is like that. English can be changed for spanish in some decades.. violence could do the same thing.. you just need a competing language... so you just need compatible ways of expressions...they have to grow and spread in the american society...but losing the status of hyperpower will make a big deal towards this goal because your international environment affects heavily the process of spreading...if you do not have an elite that needs the use of this violence, the nurture of this culture that comes from certain places will stop...it does not mean the end of violence but it will make other ideas easier to transmit.

A pleasure
A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:28:09 PM EST

Whoa, dude! Great answer! (none / 1)

Or, to put in in the vernacular, collons, Jaume, t'has pasat.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Whoa, dude! Great answer! (none / 0)

I hardly could say it better...pity people here do not understand the significance of the sentence "collons, t'has passat". I think there must be similar sentences around any culture...the strength of this sentence it is a very good measure of the level of acceptance of the violence as language....For example, in any violent group these words are "forbidden" or "taboo" words....Where this sentence is very strong, then violence is almost forbidden (there are cultures where it is the case, for example read the recent book "Pandora in Congo").

The closest I can get to this sentence in english woulb be "jesus, you crossed the line" and still it is not at all a good translation becase the cursing in catalan and spanish is the best way we have to avoid violence in Spain .. so introducing a cursing would be neessary...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:52:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Begin Rant (none / 0)

Not to jump to my country of origin's side, but I think your diary is a little misguided and mired in alarmist rhetoric.

we feel a need to exact vengence on those who oppose us.

Who are you calling "we"? I'm incredibly offended by this statement.

I have no desire to do any such thing, and I think this statement fuels the view of too many people around the world that we Americans all think alike, as though we're all a bunch of fucking wingnut robots who attend Klan rallies or something -- which is, of course, absurd.

That statement may characterize people in (say) rural Alabama, but it does not characterize people in Tallahassee, Florida, where I live, or West Palm Beach, Florida, where I grew up. Tallahassee and West Palm Beach, by the way, are two of the most liberal cities in the nation, and possibly the most liberal cities in the South. An enormous majority of us voted for Kerry, oppose the death penalty, oppose the war, and so on. There's nothing wrong with us. It's the people in power and in the "Red States" who make the rest of us look like a bunch of raving lunatics.

And it's incredibly irresponsible for foreign media sources to paint all of us as Bush followers. He won the election by about 3% -- one of the more-slim margins we've seen in decades (not counting 2000, obviously).

the iraqi war never never never had anything to do with hussein - it has been oil from the getgo - and the rest of the world knows it. my question is why don't americans get it?

Americans do get it. Haven't you been paying attention to the polls and the news? A near-supermajority now want us to start pulling troops out of Iraq. We're winning again!

We do not need to "go on the couch". It's as though you take it as a given that America is destined to be permanently fucked up. We need to keep fighting to make the public see why Bush was, and continues to be, so wrong. Just as anti-war Democrats, Libertarians and Greens are gaining the upper-hand, you're telling us that we need to get onto the shrink's couch, when, in fact, we already have.

As far as the "Wild West Cowboy Mentality" is concerned, this is an insult to the Wild West, which was far more civilized than the Bush administration. (I'm not kidding. Read about it for yourself.)

Stop feeling sorry for yourself and this country. Christ Almighty, your ancestors and mine would be spinning in their graves at such fatalism. This country survived the Civil War, the violence during the Civil Rights and anti-Vietnam movements, the Great Depression, two World Wars, the Revolutionary War and the second war with Britain, and on and on and on. If you think America and the world will fall apart because of Bush, you underestimate the power of this country and all of our friends here from other parts of the world -- and, no, that is not being overly optimistic.

We get off track, and admittedly too often, but we always find our way back, eventually. This is America, God damn it! Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Pick yourself up and make the change.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Tue Dec 13th, 2005 at 09:56:02 PM EST

Re: Begin Rant (4.00 / 3)

I should like to remind you that it was former President William Jefferson Clinton who proudly and ostentatiously permitted the execution of a mentally hanidcapped individual during his first election campaign in 1992. This was because, he knew, to do otherwise would have lost him support among the (what is it now??) 75 - 80% of the US population (left and right) who continue to obstintely support one of the most brutal and irrational policies despite all rational argument, international opinion and empirical evidence of its absolute inefficacy as an instrument to deter crime.

WRT Iraq, the question that needs to be (and will be) asked from a social and historical perspective is: why did the majority of Americans support a preemptive invasion of a nation that had absolutleyt nothing whatever to do with a horrible crime committed on its soil by a bunch of citizemns of Saudi Arabia and warriors from Afganistan?? The answer is obvious: we were hit by Muslim/A--rabs and we need to strike back at those f***ing Muslim Arabs!!!

The fact that people have started to change their mind because the war is taking too long and not going as smoothly as expected does not, by any means, provide a logical a posteriori justification for the original immoral reaction. Contrast that reaction with the reaction of the Spanish after the Madrid bombings, as a matter of fact and please EXPLAIN the difference.

The Spanish people, having rejected all the nonsensical justifications for the war (along with 90% of the world's population)to begin with, were later attacked directly on their soil. The response: get those troops out of the Middle East because it is causing (or at least aggravating) the problem of terrorism. Americans, instead, rallied around the flag and the President like a flock of brain-dead zombies around Vincent Price and said "Let's kick some A--rAb ass". Thank god that the US military failed to get the job done as it was forseen by the planners . Or do you honesetly beleive that the US (right or left) would have stopped at Iraq if it's militray hadn't met with such difficulty and resistence?? I, obviously, do not think so.

There is something profoundly wrong with CONTEMPORARY American society. Not every single individual member is affected in this way, but the exceptions only prove the rule.This also does NOT mean that there not evils of which human nature in general is heir or that other nations are spotless moral paradigms. It just means that, at this point in history, American culture is particulary prone to certain of the evils that human natuire is heir to more frequently and to a greater degree than many others; violence and vindictivness are clearly two of these evils.

This needs to be understood and explained before it can be healed.

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:34:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Begin Rant (none / 1)

Contrast that reaction with the reaction of the Spanish after the Madrid bombings, as a matter of fact and please EXPLAIN the difference.

Not only did Zapatero withdraw the troops (as was his campaign pledge and he had been advocating since Aznar agreed to send them) but he did so precipitously and two months ahead of schedule: he started by saying that the troops would be withdrawn on June 30 "unless conditions improved" and then justified the early pullout on that being "unlikely to happen before the deadline". As for my best guess about the real reasons behind the early pullout and what they have to do with American "bloodlust", I recently wrote a comment about it on another diary.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 04:54:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Begin Rant (none / 0)

Correction: Spanish people, having rejected all the nonsensical justifications for the war (along with 90% of the world's population)to begin with, were later attacked directly on their soil. But they didn't respond by changing their opinion (and their new government didn't respond by changing its election promise) about getting those troops out of the Middle East, because they only saw themselves reinforced in that it is causing (or at least aggravating) the problem of terrorism.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 06:46:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Begin Rant (none / 0)

Had the ruling PP won the elections they also would not have changed their mind and would have kept the troops in Iraq. however, it is possible that the people would have resisted in some way, but that is politics-fiction.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 06:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Begin Rant (none / 1)

After gilgamesh's thorough reply, I'm reduced to making a few side points.

An enormous majority of us voted for Kerry, oppose the death penalty, oppose the war, and so on. There's nothing wrong with us. It's the people in power and in the "Red States" who make the rest of us look like a bunch of raving lunatics.

While I fully agree with your rejection of blanket statements, I think this self-absolution practised on the US left is too easy.

That loss by 3% can be viewed (and many people including myself do view it) as a failure to fight hard enough to convince others of your truth, while you had all the odds for you. The opposition to the war was very faint, with calls for support for the troops (and indeed all the focus on the troops) - and no actions, only petitions and small protests and vigils rather than at least a civil disobedience movement, or blockades of military installations. And while half a million protesters once in New York seem impressive on the face, it is only 1/600th of the total population - the protests in Spain got out more than a tenth of the total population in February 2003. Meanwhile, the me-too-sim of Kerry and other leading Democrats has a smell of Vichy here.

(But to close this off, while I focus on liberal Americans above to counter your point, that's not because I think there is no such failure elsewhere. We leftist here in Europe failed too, especially in 'New Europe'. And continue to fail on other issues.)

A near-supermajority now want us to start pulling troops out of Iraq.

But only less than third wants a total withdrawal and that soon, and a majority still has illusions about a positive US role there. And still nearly half (numbers even rose in the last polls) think the original decision to go to war was right.

As far as the "Wild West Cowboy Mentality" is concerned, this is an insult to the Wild West, which was far more civilized than the Bush administration. (I'm not kidding. Read about it for yourself.)

Good one!

This country survived... If you think America and the world will fall apart because of Bush...

The US may not fall apart because of Bush, but I wouldn't be so sure about it based on such short a history. No empire lasted more than a few hundred years (and that includes Egypt and China, which fell apart and re-formed several times).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 06:41:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Violence (none / 1)

Violence seems to be a fundamental human characteristic. Sometimes things can be traced back to economics (various tribal territorial battles, for example).

Sometimes there just seems to an irrational hate of "the other." The Crusades seem to fall into that category. The land captured doesn't seem to have been the primary motivation.

Sometimes the desire for war seems to have no rational basis. Try explaining the reasons for WWI or Iraq (as my recent thread tried) and you get widely divergent answers. In general wars seem to be started by old men trying to recapture their failing virility. It's nice that they can get eager young men to do the fighting for them, too.

Support for the death penalty in the US can be traced back to our Puritan heritage. Part of the eye for an eye morality that underlies much public policy. Punishing people for their "sins" is widely approved. Thus unwanted pregnancy is the result of the "sin" of sex as is drug incarceration for the "sin" of pointless pleasure seeking.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 14th, 2005 at 11:22:00 AM EST

Re: american bloodlust: can anyone explain it to m (none / 0)

A worthy question, and well-asked.

I couldn't answer the poll for lack of a choice that really seemed to get it right. But after reading through the comments, I looked at the poll's responses and saw that my closest choice has by far the most votes -- "under the spell of rightwing whackos."

It's a corrupt[ed] culture. The rightwing whackos are more a manifestation of, the corruptness than its cause. Looks to me like state executions are some sort of continuations of public hangings in earlier England. Brutalizing and bestializing of the population. The way out of it is to foster growth of the opposite, raising the population up in knowledge of what they -- humanity -- can be.

Down deep, I think most people (those who are not opposing state execution) tend to regard it as being "it's just the way things are -- it's just the way it is." The rationalizations and arguments are just a not-so-much-related icing or crust on that dead core. It is the dead core that must be brought to life; attacking the arguments isn't going to change things.

by Gary McGowan (togmac [at] yahoo [dawt] com) on Sat Dec 17th, 2005 at 11:25:45 AM EST

american bloodlust: can anyone explain it to me? | 61 comments (61 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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