European Tribune

Rice to warn Europe to back off over torture camps (poll)

by DuctapeFatwa
Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 08:27:39 AM EST

from the diaries. See also a number of press articles on the topic selected by Fran in the European Breakfast thread, by clicking directly here. -- Jérôme

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is expected to give allies in Europe a response next week to their pressure over Washington's treatment of terrorism suspects: back off...

But Rice will shift to offense when she visits Europe next week, in a strategy that has emerged in recent days and been tested by her spokesman in public and in her private meetings with European visitors.

She will remind allies they themselves have been cooperating in U.S. operations and tell them to do more to win over their publics as a way to deflect criticism directed at the United States, diplomats and U.S. officials said.


Irish Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern said Rice told him in Washington she expected allies to trust that America does not allow rights abuses -- a sign she will avoid giving Europe a detailed response on U.S. intelligence work.

And she refused to give Ahern a personal assurance Ireland has not been used for secret prisoner transfers, saying he had already heard that denial from the U.S. ambassador, a senior State Department official said...

There are signs Europe has already begun to get the message to ease up on the controversy.

Ahern said he accepted the U.S. word. Germany, whose foreign minister also pressed Rice this week during a visit, said it would wait patiently for a U.S. response....

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What steps do you think European leaders can take to stamp out criticism of US torture camps?

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Poll
What's the best way to stamp out criticism of US torture camps in Europe?
. Render more Europeans to the camps 4%
. Hire the Lincoln Group to write positive torture stories for European papers 33%
. Don't allow Europe to have newspapers any more 16%
. Launch a few strategic bombing raids as a warning 4%
. Cut off food, water and medicine to some European cities 4%
. Melt flesh off of European children 4%
. Criticism has been very slight, Rice is over-reacting, Europeans are proud to have these camps 20%
. Mandatory death penalty for anti-American sentiment of any kind throughout Europe 0%
. If America had made Europe English only after WW2, this would not be a problem 8%
. Other (What is your plan to bring Europe to heel?) 4%

Votes: 24
Results | Other Polls
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Hmm, so many choices, so little time. But I picked the one that may be the closest to what really happens:

Hire the Lincoln Group to write positive torture stories for European papers

It's the way the US gets things done over here...

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!

by whataboutbob on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 03:13:50 AM EST

Rice to take hard line on CIA prisons claim

Condoleezza Rice, US secretary of state, is expected to begin her trip to Europe next week with a forceful rejection of requests for information regarding alleged secret CIA prisons in Europe and clandestine transiting of war-on-terror suspects.

So, not a rejection of the claims, not a denial of the facts, a rejection of the requests for information


Diplomats said that Ms Rice, who arrives in Germany on Monday and meets Chancellor Angela Merkel the next day, is not expected to reveal information - as formally requested by the European Union last week - but to defend the US need to obtain intelligence.

"Her response will be suitably diplomatic, but also forceful," commented one envoy.

The US state department declined to comment on how Ms Rice would respond. While refusing to respond to reports of secret prisons and transport of detainees in Europe, officials insist that US actions are in compliance with US law and international conventions. US law prohibits secret prisons on US territory.

As noted by Fran in an earlier thread, there is no mention of international law here, but there is also this new parsing of words: "US law prohibits secret prisons on US territory" (i.e. but not, presumably, on foreign territories). Is that actually true, in any case? That sounds really strange to me.


Elizabeth Cheney, a senior state department official and daughter of the vice president, told Arab reporters this week that "a new set of rules" was required when dealing with an enemy like al-Qaeda.

European concerns have been exacerbated by the Bush administration's efforts to exempt the CIA from proposed US legislation that would prohibit the "cruel, inhumane and degrading" treatment of detainees.

We say we don't do torture, but we don't want to be prevented form doing it. But you should believe us that we don't do it.


While EU member states share no desire to have these sensitive issues aired openly, the mounting public attention threatens to undermine what diplomats generally regard as the positive trend in transatlantic relations driven by President George W. Bush in his second term.

Yeah, it's a pain not to be friends with the USA. They had stopped humiliating us, so we could go back to being poodles without it being too obvious, and now this. Bummer... Being a diplomat sucks, sometimes.


Diplomats said there had been intense debate within the Bush administration over how to respond to the request penned last week by Jack Straw, the UK foreign secretary, for the EU presidency. In the end, an uncompromising stance appears to have prevailed.

So - who was in favor of a less uncompromising stance? Washington journalists - here's a potential scoop for you if you do your job right.


The Council of Europe, representing 46 nations, has already opened an official inquiry.

Yep, maybe our only chance now to get to some information. The CoE lost some of its credibility by not being very tough on Russian crimes in Chechnya. Now would be a good opportunity to regain some credibility, even if the price is to appear to have double standards. But who says that the USa should only be held to the standards used for Russia? Go, CoE!


The alleged existence of secret CIA prisons in eastern Europe was reported last month by the Washington Post. It said US officials asked that the countries involved not be named. Poland and Romania denied subsequent claims by Human Rights Watch, based on flight records, that they had provided facilities.

Why on earth is the WaPo still withholding that information?

Our governments are not going to be doing much about this, unless we hold their feet to the fire. They are responsible to us, not to Washington, it's time they remembered this. Let's keep the pressure.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 08:41:25 AM EST

Clearly, this is not something that happened overnight, the Kosovo "facility" is reported to have been there since 1991 or thereabouts.

In no instance would it have been possible to establish and operate these camps without the cooperation of the governments involved.

Obviously, the choices in my poll are tongue in cheek, but seriously, I think this is a defining moment for Europe, and what the people do, or don't do, will define events and destinies for a very long time.

One man's conspiracy is another man's business plan.

by DuctapeFatwa (DuctapeFatwa@yahoo.com) on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 09:16:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree about the "... defining moment...". I hope that more governments in Europe are responsive to both their citizentry and to practical humanitarian principles than our criminal government in the US is. And I hope the power of those citizenries is sufficient to throwout their putative leaders if they choose to follow the path of enablers for the Bush regime's psychopaths.

defeat the sound bite
by sbj (crhayes11@comcast.net) on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 03:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Clearly, this is not something that happened overnight, the Kosovo "facility" is reported to have been there since 1991 or thereabouts.
*
Upppsss! So tell me again why Albanians ON SERBIAN LAND were armed and helped by USA and NATO (even with outraged bombardment of one European country at the end of 20th century and not only that Kosovo was bombarded where allegedly human rights abuses took place but WHOLE country all CIVILIANS INCLUDED) to ILEGALY separate and take piece of SERBIAN territory...?
As much as I hated Milosevic looks like he was not willing to let them make Serbia one big concentration camp for torture...but Albanians on Kosovo were very willing ...and just in time...1991...leading to Balkan wars...
All though I wouldn't bet now on the chance that at this moment after what they have been through post Milosevic governments didn't allow under pressure those torture prisons even in what is now Serbia ( minus Kosovo)...
by vbo on Sun Dec 4th, 2005 at 08:46:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Dudehisattva...
"Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom"
by dood abides on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 09:45:06 AM EST
Her and bushie take the most godawful pictures..they seem to have no good sides to them-no pun intended really.

Might I suggest she ought to apply for one of those new face transplant operations.

"People never do evil so throughly and happily as when they do it from moral conviction."-Blaise Pascal

by chocolate ink on Sun Dec 4th, 2005 at 09:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Calling Poland (certainly) and Rumania (maybe) "eastern Europe" has all sorts of implications apart from being factually wrong. An interesting point about this was made on Radio 4 this morning. The divison between eastern and western goes back to the Englightenment when those within "the west" were countries that shared the common values and experience of "civilisation" wheras "eastern" Europe was strange, dangerous, barbaric or to paraphrase Chamberlain "far away countries of which we know little". Romania to some extent shared this quality  - think of why Dracula was set in Transylvania and where Mary Shelly set Frankenstein. Later the artificial division of the Iron Curtain brought that border between those sharing the western European tradition from the Russian.

In describing the locations of the black prisons as being in "eastern Europe" we are subscribing to this attempt to imply that they are in somehow uncivilised or barbaric countries so we should not be so outraged.

by Londonbear on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 10:22:57 AM EST
The Iron Curtain also conveniently defined the Soviet sphere of influence as the Slavic countries.

The similarity of the words Slav and slave is not coincidental, and is relatively recent.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 10:46:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is that in Russian, the words for foreign and for German ('nemetskii' = 'not from here') are closely related...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 11:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In classical Greek a "barbarian" was just someone who didn't speak Greek.

Stranger ~ Foreigner in Romance languages...

I am told in Japanese 'gaijin' translates as either foreigner or barbarian...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 11:35:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The migrating Germanic tribes called the Celts walh, meaning, fairly pejoratively, "foreign".

Walh gave rise to a whole slew of names, from Wales/Welsh and Gaul/Gaulois to Walloon and Walach/Vlach.

And "slave" is derived directly from "Slav", through Latin sclavus, "captive Slav".

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 03:41:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'nemetskii' = 'not from here'

I believe it is 'dumb'(niemy) (as in can't speak, not 'stupid').

by MarekNYC on Sun Dec 4th, 2005 at 12:45:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The divison between eastern and western goes back to the Enlightenment when those within "the west" were countries that shared the common values and experience of "civilisation" wheras "eastern" Europe was strange, dangerous, barbaric or to paraphrase Chamberlain "far away countries of which we know little".

A topic nicely explored by Larry Wolff in Inventing Eastern Europe: The Map of Civilization on the Mind of the Enlightenment (The link is to a detailed review).  For the Balkans see Maria Todorova Imagining the Balkans (also a review)

For just how ugly this sort of stuff could get in practice see Michael Burleigh Germany turns Eastwards. A study of Ostforschung in the Third Reich. Or Michael Fallbusch Wissenschaft im Dienst der nationalsozialistischer Politik? Or Ingo Haar Deutsche Historiker im Dritten Reich. Deutsche Geschichtswissenschaft und der "Volkstumskampf" im Osten For the postwar effects see, for example, Das Erbe der Ostforschung. Zur Rolle Göttingens in der Geschichtswissenschaft der Nachkriegszeit by  Michael Kai Lindemann.  And lots, lots more.

by MarekNYC on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 12:40:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...is to import more of American culture so that the EU becomes more "civilized".  </snark>

"Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering." - R. Buckminster Fuller -5.88/-5.23
by Shadan7 on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 11:51:58 AM EST
One foreign minister spilled his drink when she delivered that warning over coffee in Brussels, a senior U.S. official said.

The only U.S. politician that has given me a civilized answer to the torture problem is McCain, who sent me a very nice letter last year. It's a pretty sad reflection on Clinton, Lieberman, et. al.

by northsylvania on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 12:11:08 PM EST
Apparently this refers to the warning not to enter into arms trades with China, which was delivered a few months ago, and the spilling was in reaction to Rice's tone. The warning about the CIA prisons will be delivered next week.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 12:23:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the correction. I hope they spill the coffee in her lap next week.
by northsylvania on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 02:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How about on her face?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 03:08:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be much better, indeed. Throw the whole pot.

We have no eternal allies and we have no perpetual enemies.
Our interests are perpetual and eternal...

Lord Palmerston, 1848
by Francois in Paris on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 03:20:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am curious, how do European countries allow planes to fly through without knowing exactly what the cargo is inside those planes? If I were the EU, I would grow some balls and demand full disclosure on any flights like that.

Mikhail from SF
by Tsarrio (dj_tsar@yahoo.com) on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 01:30:25 PM EST
That's easy... They are American planes, so they go through with a wink and a smile, because we trust the US government... until now, of course.

Still, the planes could well have forged flight manifests. Is it routine practice for local authorities to check the identity of everyone onboard a plane in transit?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 03:06:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Bush regime is not interested in bringing the conflict in Iraq to a close. On the contrary, their agenda is to broaden and perpetuate the war until it engulfs the entire region.

To this end, BushCo doesn't want any help from Europe for the simple reason that if European interests did actually manage to propose some possibly workable strategies that would lead to first a diminution and finally a cessation of war, The Bush gang would look very bad when they nixed such proposals.

By issuing another massive  and all-encompassing Fuck You! to Europe as a whole, they are only further insuring no one from Europe will be actively interfering with the plan to grow the war.

IMHO.

defeat the sound bite

by sbj (crhayes11@comcast.net) on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 03:16:25 PM EST
from Der Spiegel (link) for full size image.



Do not feel safe. The poet remembers.
Czeslaw Milosz

by Chris Kulczycki on Sat Dec 3rd, 2005 at 04:01:11 PM EST
Allegations that the United States has committed abuses in Europe while waging its "war on terror" will cloud this week's visit by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, but her hosts have little appetite for forcing the issue with Washington.

European officials seem satisfied, for now, that the United States has promised a formal response to press reports the CIA ran secret jails in Eastern Europe and covertly flew terrorist suspects through airports and bases across the continent.

They are loath to pick new quarrels with Washington and risk souring transatlantic ties which are only gradually recovering from a deep rift over the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

They may also be nervous about what further investigation could uncover. Some European Union governments face awkward and persistent suggestions that they may have known and approved of secret U.S. operations taking place on their soil....

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One man's conspiracy is another man's business plan.
by DuctapeFatwa (DuctapeFatwa@yahoo.com) on Sun Dec 4th, 2005 at 08:34:32 AM EST


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