European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

Renditions open thread

by Jerome a Paris
Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 03:44:10 AM EST

Update [2005-12-6 6:4:26 by Jerome a Paris]: According to ABC, quoted by Chris in the thread, a number of detainees were in Poland. See his diary now.

Fran has posted a very wide cross section of articles on the topic in the European Breakfast thread just below (as well as on other topics like the EU budget), so go read these and come to comment here, it will be easier.

I have found this anaysis in Le Figaro to be the simplest description of the Bush policies:

whatever has not been proved needs no justification, and whatever is confirmed is a matter of shared responsibility.

What's your take on the story, on the press coverage, and on the European governments' reactions?

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Renditions open thread | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Renditions open thread (4.00 / 3)

Rice is so full of s**t.

Comparing current US methods with the rendition of Ramzi Youssef or Carlos Ramirez is outrageous. Those two guys were "rendered" to courts and were tried under the law, not transferred to torture friendly countries.

We have no eternal allies and we have no perpetual enemies.
Our interests are perpetual and eternal...
Lord Palmerston, 1848

by Francois in Paris on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 04:33:19 AM EST

I agree (none / 1)

They had a clip of her on the news last night, when she was saying "renditions have been done... blah blah... forever... blah blah...".

She's simply awful, and is echoing the "we're so badass" attitude that is the trademark of the Bush administration.

by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 04:40:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

An end to appeasement (4.00 / 2)

Refuse to discuss any topics with Rice on her trip other than the rendition flights and the secret prisons. Then send her back to the US.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 04:42:51 AM EST

Re: Renditions open thread (4.00 / 3)

I'm terribly curious how the Germans will handle this situation. Rice's defence, how ridiculous it may sound, is hard to counter without calling her a liar. Now, Merkel can avoid that by choosing more diplomatic words. But the line between a witty condemnation of the USA's practice and seeming cooperation is thin. I have high hopes that she manages to piss of Rice, but I think it's more probable that she'll try to stear clear from embarrassing Rice.

It's utterly disgusting seeing Rice talk about "everything's fine, legal, really, everybody's been doing it for years" while at the same moment said "legal" prisons are being hastily closed.

by srutis on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 04:47:57 AM EST

One hand, other hand (4.00 / 2)

Merkel herself was not complicit in any tacit condoning of rendition traffic, so in the best of all worlds she'd take the high moral ground.

But what about her SPD ministers? Did Foreign Minister Steinmeier know? (probably). Did Vice-Chancellor Müntefering? (conceivable).

Oh hell, she'll probably just wimp out.

There's no such thing as original sin - Elvis Costello

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 05:02:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Renditions open thread (4.00 / 3)

Issue is that Rice is probably correct when she says most European governments knew about the renditions and the jails and turned a blind eye. It cannot be dealt with at the executive level but only by the legislative branches, which haven't been involved. Call your MP, député, etc.

We have no eternal allies and we have no perpetual enemies.
Our interests are perpetual and eternal...
Lord Palmerston, 1848

by Francois in Paris on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 05:02:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Renditions open thread (none / 1)

Yes, likely. I thus support Metanone's point made in the other thread:

I want them to admit they did wrong, and make penance by:
a) Holding the US to account.
b) Telling all they know.
c) Writing laws etc. to help make sure this doesn't happen again.

We have to ask them: are you willing to sacrifice some of your own citizens for the sake of your relationship with Condi? Are you out of your minds?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 05:44:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Renditions open thread (none / 1)

My problem with this is point 3: the issue is that our governments ignore laws for illusoric diplomatic gain.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 05:46:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Renditions open thread (none / 1)

I want to see at least one minister call a press conference, confess to knowing about this, hand over the evidence to the press, and resign for failing to prevent Human Rights violations and revealing State secrets. I am sure nobody would mind pardoning them after a trial exposes all the dirt from under the rug.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 05:47:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Renditions open thread (none / 0)

I don't care much for penance 'cause I don't believe in forgiveness. And I don't think c) is the issue. There are already so many laws and high councils of this and commissions of that and high courts of this and that to "protect" us. It starts to look like the Soviet Constitution.

I'm angry on practical grounds. The US can do as they please and mind their own security the way they want, up to and including shooting themselves in the foot by using torture.

But if our intelligence services or gvts support or accept those stupid, counter-productive methods on pretense of being nice to the US, it would mean they are not doing their job of protecting our countries. It would mean they are just as much of a bunch of heedless wankers as their US counterparts. And that truly scares me.

We have no eternal allies and we have no perpetual enemies.
Our interests are perpetual and eternal...
Lord Palmerston, 1848

by Francois in Paris on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 09:13:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Renditions open thread (none / 1)

dangnabit Jerome, once again you seem intent on reducing me to a zero...

Metatone

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 11:32:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

New CIA Prison News (4.00 / 2)

New CIA Prison News

ABC news is reporting:

Dec. 5, 2005 -- Two CIA secret prisons were operating in Eastern Europe until last month when they were shut down following Human Rights Watch reports of their existence in Poland and Romania.
Current and former CIA officers speaking to ABC News on the condition of confidentiality say the United States scrambled to get all the suspects off European soil before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived there today. The officers say 11 top al Qaeda suspects have now been moved to a new CIA facility in the North African desert.

And,

Dec. 5, 2005

Following is a list of 12 high-value targets housed by the CIA.

Abu Zubaydah: Held first in Thailand then Poland

Ibn Al-Shaykh al-Libi: Held in Poland. Previously held in Pakistan/Afghanistan

Abdul Rahim al-Sharqawi: Held in Poland

Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri: Held in Poland

Ramzi Binalshibh: Held in Poland

Mohammed Omar Abdel-Rahman: Held in Poland

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed: Held in Poland

Waleed Mohammed bin Attash: Held in Poland

Hambali: In U.S. custody. Kept isolated from other high-value targets.

Hassan Ghul: Held in Poland.

Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani: Held in Poland

Abu Faraj al-Libbi: Held in Poland

I'll also post this as a diary.

Do not feel safe. The poet remembers.
Czeslaw Milosz

by Chris Kulczycki on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:01:11 AM EST

Re: New CIA Prison News (4.00 / 2)

the United States scrambled to get all the suspects off European soil before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived there today

Just so Rice and her hosts can truthfully say "there are no CIA secret prisons", in the present tense.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:03:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: New CIA Prison News (none / 1)

Luckily for Poland, the government just changed. Unluckily for Poland, they'll have a hard time proving that the outgoing government did not inform them of whatthe CIA was doing there. Luckily for Poland, the EU treaty provides for sanctions in the case of "persistent" rights violations, and one thing these prisons are not any more is "presistent".

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:11:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Renditions open thread (4.00 / 3)

There is a horrible comment in the NZZ (a major Swiss middle-right big boss newspaper) on this topic:
http://nzz.ch/2005/12/02/al/kommentarDDJ1K.html (In German). I'm right now writing a letter to counter some clames made therein, which I will post soon here also (also in German :) )

by srutis on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:23:20 AM EST

Re: Renditions open thread (none / 0)

what do you expect from the quintessential newspaper from the city whose wealth is based on the bloody money of the last two centuries? :-)

actually, I like the nzz very much, but this is an awful comment. good luck with your letter

by jandsm on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:31:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Renditions open thread (none / 0)

Heh heh you're quite right. I most of the time tune out this knowledge as to not being too much bothered by it all the time, even if the only connection of me to these banks is that we're both Swiss.

Well, I like the NZZ also because it's got its facts straight for most of the time, and without hyperventilating so much as most of the other papers. But some of the op-eds they publish are just awful (just like the one at hand).

by srutis on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:37:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Renditions open thread (4.00 / 2)

Now here's this letter. It's in German and as the points made in here are common knowledge on this site (or so I guess) I don't bother translating it.

Dieser Kommentar ist auf fragwürdigen Fakten aufgebaut und scheint ungesetzliche Handlungen seitens der USA zumindest zu tolerieren wollen.

Im einzelnen: Die "moralisch drapierte Entrüstung" legt nahe, dass es nach der Meinung des Autors nicht wirklich um die Foltervorwürfe geht, sondern lediglich, gegen die USA zu sein. Das stimmt so nicht. Eine sehr ähnliche Entrüstung war auch spürbar im Entführungsfall Metzler in Deutschland selber.

Der Autor ist auch falsch in seiner Einschätzung, dass die Regierung Bush eine politisierte CIA auf Kurs bringen muss. Genau das Gegenteil ist der Fall: Die Regierung Bush hat versucht, wie hinreichend berichtet worden ist, die CIA auf ihre Linie zu bringen, nicht nur in der Folterdiskussion, sondern auch in der seit einigen Monaten geführten Diskussion um die nicht vorhandenen bzw. fabrizierten Beweise für den Iraq-Krieg.

Dass die europäischen Regierungen über die amerikanischen Aktivitäten auf ihren Gebiet informiert waren, ändert nichts an ihrer Verpflichtung, solche ungesetzmässigen Vorkommnissen zu verfolgen.

Ich kann desweiteren die Verteidigung des Autors der amerikanischen Verschleppraxis nicht nachvollziehen. Ein bekannter Fall war, dass ein Verdächtigter von Italien über Deutschland nach Aegypten verschleppt wurde. Wenn Italien ein Schauplatz im Anti-Terror-Krieg ist, dann ist es ganz Europa, und somit haben die Vereinigten Staaten das Recht, in ganz Europa beliebig Menschen zu entführen und in Länder zu bringen, wo weder die amerikanische Regierung noch europäische Regierungen eine Kontrolle über Haftbedingungen haben?

by srutis on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:33:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Rice and Merkel (none / 1)

Reuters: Rice says US rectifies mistakes in terror war

ERLIN (Reuters) - U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said on Tuesday that Washington would work to rectify any mistakes it made in its war on terror, but declined to comment on the alleged CIA abduction of a German man.
"When and if mistakes are made, we work very hard and as quickly as possible to rectify them," Rice told a news conference in Berlin.
She noted the case of German Khaled el-Masri, allegedly abducted by the CIA to Afghanistan, was subject to litigation in the United States and declined to comment on it.

Exactly, it was a mistake to have secret prisons on member States of the Council of Europe, so we've relocated them to North Africa.

Rice reiterated her defense of U.S. methods in the war on terror against 21st century militants.
"If you don't get to them before they commit their crimes, they will commit mass murder," she said.
"We have an obligation to defend our people and we will use every lawful means to do so."

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:27:03 AM EST

Re: Renditions open thread (none / 1)

I've started listening to the radio news program The World, which is co-produced by WGBH-FM in Boston. It's a refreshing change from NPR.

Their feature on this topic yesterday included an interview with someone from Der Speigel who pointed out that all of Rice's comments specifically referred to torture, and not to inhumane treatment.

So, yeah, you can parse her words and find that she tiptoed through the legalese while failing to address the broader issue.

"...psychopaths have little difficulty infiltrating the domains of...politics, law enforcement, (and) government." Dr. Robert Hare

by RubDMC (rubdmc at yahoodotcom) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:28:08 AM EST

CIA Ruse Is Said to Have Damaged Probe in Milan (none / 1)

From the Washington Post (link):

MILAN -- In March 2003, the Italian national anti-terrorism police received an urgent message from the CIA about a radical Islamic cleric who had mysteriously vanished from Milan a few weeks before. The CIA reported that it had reliable information that the cleric, the target of an Italian criminal investigation, had fled to an unknown location in the Balkans.

In fact, according to Italian court documents and interviews with investigators, the CIA's tip was a deliberate lie, part of a ruse designed to stymie efforts by the Italian anti-terrorism police to track down the cleric, Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, an Egyptian refugee known as Abu Omar.

The strategy worked for more than a year until Italian investigators learned that Nasr had not gone to the Balkans after all. Instead, prosecutors here have charged, he was abducted off a street in Milan by a team of CIA operatives who took him to two U.S. military bases in succession and then flew him to Egypt, where he was interrogated and allegedly tortured by Egyptian security agents before being released to house arrest.

There is much more in the article.

Do not feel safe. The poet remembers.
Czeslaw Milosz

by Chris Kulczycki on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:36:19 AM EST

Another sad story (4.00 / 2)

I would like to point your attention to another sad German detainee in U.S. custody, Murat Kurnuz. He is a Turkish citizen born and raised in Germany, currently detained in Gtmo.

I also wrote a letter to the editor of the Washington Post about his case, that got published in April in the WaPo.

by jandsm on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:43:05 AM EST

Re: Renditions open thread (4.00 / 3)

What this does is encourage an asymmetrical war of the poor, which our Governments conveniently label "terrorism", conveniently dismissing their own murderous actions.

by Lupin on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:55:14 AM EST

Re: Renditions open thread (none / 0)

You are providing comfort and solace to the enemies of civilization! How dare you?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 06:57:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Renditions open thread (none / 1)

Which civilization are we talking about here? :-)

To paraphrase Pogo, We have met the enemies of civilization and it is us.

by Lupin on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 09:09:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Renditions open thread (none / 0)

Can anyone provide any clarification on

this? Confirmation, disproof? Also posted I believe at bellaciao? I've seen this list floating around and am not sure what to make of it; also unfamiliar with Clayton Hallmark.

by melvin on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 07:35:16 AM EST

No backbone (4.00 / 4)

The raction will be no backbone. Our standard foreign policy.

Second, people reation will depend on the number of "mistakes" that can be proven. Most of Europe is not against torture or tough techniques per se but because they coudl be applied to someone who has nothing to do with the situation (we are not that liberal or enlightened in europe to be disgusted about the contempt for law).

US knows that, so their reaction will be to say that it happened but it only happened to the bad guys and Europe knew it.

Reagarding the group of people who think that this is a shame no matter what, we are minority and we will make noise, that's all.

In any case, an example of a mistake could make Europe face the situation and change the present dynamics.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 08:11:01 AM EST

Re: No backbone (none / 1)

The lack of backbone is telling, and the fact that Jose Bono is quoted in the international media as dismissing teh allegations is a shameful reminder of what happened under Felipe's watch 20 years ago. Kcurie, today it is Constitution Day in Spain. I have been thinking about GAL a lot recently in connection with this scandal, and today is a great date to write about it.

Apparently the Basque and/or left Nationalist parties (ERC PNV, EA, NB, BNG) have chosen not to take part in the celebrations in Parliament. Good for them, maybe they don't remember what happened to the constitution of 1931.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 08:30:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No backbone (none / 1)

I think talking about GAL today would be on the spot.

Thanks to the fact that the right at that time wanted to bite Felipe very badly all the illegal activities of GAL were knwown to everyone and there was a huge reaction.

Since then, I think, the spanish police has improved a lot. Actually I would say that there are no more torture or illegal treatment. It is good to remember how good was that for the fight against terrorism.

Police quickly adapted to new techniques, police, judge, attorneys..everybody work tough and under law... the results have been excellent.. more than excellent .. you realize that Spain is one of the few countries who is really fighting terrosims in a smart and strong way? We are the best on the game.. and we could make certainly a point that discovering GAL and the reaction against it was very important.

So fighting torture indeed helps security .. and this is something we could defend in this forum.

A pleasure.

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 09:31:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No backbone (none / 0)

Thanks to the fact that the right at that time wanted to bite Felipe very badly all the illegal activities of GAL were knwown to everyone and there was a huge reaction.

Actually... in the early 1980's El Pais and Camb16 both covered the GAL allegations, but people thought fighting ETA justified anything, even kidnapping and assassination. I think by and large no tears were shed for Lasa and Zabala, but that the mistake of kidnapping Marey was perceived differently.

It was only after 1989, when PSOE had a thin (but absolute) majority and Aznar was leader of the reconstituted (post-Franquista) PP, that the right and El Mundo started using the court cases to bring Felipe down. In the end, Barrionuevo and Vera were found guilty of misappropriation of funds, but as much as Damborenea tried to argue that they (and Felipe) knew about GAL there was really no evidence of it.

It is telling that Galindo was "promoted" out of the Basque Country, which was also rather shameful but probably politically necessary.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 09:59:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly my point (none / 0)

Exactly , exact, super-exact.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 10:06:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Which is exactly what happened: (none / 0)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4501948.stm

In Berlin, Ms Rice and Mrs Merkel sought to dampen down the discussion about alleged CIA practices, the BBC's Ray Furlong reports.

Mrs Merkel said Ms Rice had given "important" reassurances that the US would use "every lawful means" to protect citizens from the threat of international terrorism.

by srutis on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 08:47:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Which is exactly what happened: (none / 0)

I'm not sure I want the USA to protect "me" or any other EU nations from terrorism...!
Specially when I see the mess they've done to themselves since 9/11 and the "patriot act"...

Please Mrs Rice... Forget about our security, please...! Let us do it ourselves...

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Tue Dec 6th, 2005 at 09:32:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Renditions open thread | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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