European Tribune

Should a US citizen consider emigration to Europe?

by guleblanc
Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 06:01:44 AM EST

This is not completely on topic for the European Tribune, but perhaps it's not too far off.

I'm thinking seriously about emigrating from the US to the UK.  I have several reasons for this.


  • I have two sons, one 9 and one almost 13.  I am dreadfully worried about the draft in the US.  It's hard to see how the US administrations, now or in the future, can meet current military needs without it.
  • I am also worried about the pernicious influence of religion in the US.  The military, especially the Air Force, is riddled with evangelical believers, whose fealty to their religion seems stronger than their fealty to the constitution or the nation.  I wonder, if the Rs lose one or both houses of our national legislature in the 2006 elections, if the military will take the loss with equinamity, or will declare the election void, and establish the Christian nation they say they believe in.
  • I also worry about the effects of the uncontrolled US deficit, and how that will affect US influence in the future, for good or ill.
  • Finally, as my friend Dan says, I ask myself this question:  What should a German liberal in, say 1930, have done?  Clearly, many of them chose to flee, and I wonder if that is the correct thing now.  Clearly, Germany suffered materially after the Great World War.  The US is not looking at anything so materially devastating.  But the impending loss of the War in Iraq, following the loss of the War in Vietnam, will have a devastating psychological effect on the US population.  Americans have seldom coped with such malaise well.

I have found that there is a UK program for people with letters behind their name, so I think I can be admitted , and can find employment there.  But I wonder if it is really a good idea.  I had been reading Stirling Newberry, Armando and Jerome à Paris on dKos and here, and I wonder what is the future of the EU, and will the UK actually withdraw if the going gets difficult.  It's hard to believe the UK can survive without hitching itself to some other star.  Other than the EU, what are the alternatives, after all?  If my intuitions about the US are right, aligning with the US is a disaster.  Aligning with the Chinese, as Australia seems to be doing, seems difficult for the UK.  Is Russia a possibility?  Probably not.  And if my family and I emigrate to the UK, and the UK flounders, what good is that?

So, I guess my question is, how can I find out more data to help me answer my fundamental questions, which are:


  1. Is it a good idea for a US citzen to emigrate to the UK, or to another EU country?
  2. Is the future of the US as grim as the future of Germany in the 30s, and, if so, what should a liberal minded, technically skilled secular humanist do?

Thanks for any help you may be able to give me on this.


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In debate we defined "should" as ought to but not necessarily will.

Personally my love is for Eastern & Central Europe. I am actively looking for property in Poland.  The problem is, believe it or not, it is very hard to become a Polish citizen.  And they have some strict laws about non-citizens owning land.  

IMHO the new additions to the EU will be the most exciting place to live over the next 10 years.  Their economies will prosper and the standard of living will skyrocket; much like what happened in "old Europe" in the late '50s.  Just my 0,02 USD.  

by rast (deavod (at) hotmail (dot] com) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 06:41:06 AM EST
and I'd add this:  there's a lot in it and a lot to consider, not only the physical move, but there's a whole emotional component to becoming an expat...it can at times be real hard. What languages do you speak well? If its English only, then look at the UK. If you can find a job before you go, that's best, though not absolutely necessary. And what about your family? Are they up for this? It's a different world here, and at times you will really miss your friends and familiar places. BUT...you'd be in Europe, and there's a whole openness and freshness to being here that's real nice too. Lots to do, too...
2. Hope this isn't true...

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 06:54:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe you are true about New Europe.  I am a Ph.D. SW engineer, varied experience, but not really a researcher.  At least, my Ph.D. thesis was essentially the solution to a purely mathematical problem, and I have completely lost interest in formal logic.  I prefer to build things that work, and that I can see work.  I would prefer to try Romania, which seems to have a very strong, nascent SW industry.  Unfortunately, my family is not very keen on the idea of learning new languages.  My wife is especially leary of Eastern Europe.  So, I think the UK is the best compromise we could work out.
by guleblanc on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 07:20:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is SW?

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 07:22:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry.  Sometimes I forget my audience.

SoftWare.  

by guleblanc on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 08:01:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right now Germany is offering immigration to IT folks like you, check out the German consulate sites, that may be an easy way.
by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 11:37:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I assume you're referring to the "green card" exception of 2000?

My understanding is that this has been superceded by the new immigration act as of 1 Jan 2005, which basically says that foreign professionals are welcome to seek employment if they work in a profession in which a shortage exists, i.e. do not displace any native or EU citizen. Consequently, no special rules exist any longer for individual occupational groups. source/xlation m.o.

My wife is in IT, and we know a lot of German software people who are out of work.

I don't mean to say that it is impossible (especially if you have a prospective employer in your corner), but it's not as easy as it used to be.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 12:17:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ugh, you may be right.  I remembered that provision last year when I was looking at the marriage requirements.  I cannot find it now.  I have a feeling you are right - scratch everything I posted on it, or do deeper research.

This is also bad news for my younger brother who planned to do that if a draft was started in the US again.

Scheiße!

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu Jun 30th, 2005 at 04:16:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well there's a lot of good software work being done here in Romania and getting a permit to work here is relatively easy/possible.  Becoming a citizen is next to impossible however.

Bucharest is a big modern city with anything you and your wife could ever possible want, and hordes of well-trained computer programmers looking for work.  You could do a lot worse!

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 11:45:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The possibility of citzenship is important, if my goal is for my sons to avoid the draft.  I suspect that by the time the soon-to-be 13-year old is close to 18, the all-draft army will be in full swing, and small countries  like Romania or Canada will have difficulty resisting US pressure to surrender US citzens for conscription.
by guleblanc on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 01:49:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well five years is a long time from now... and the draft is something pretty remote.  What is Romania or Canada or wherever going to do, deport your son?

Let me tell you a little secret about being American and living abroad - the US gov't has no idea where you live.  The only gov't who cares is the host country.  And being a permanent resident is ten thousand times easier than becoming a citizen.

If you really feel that paranoid, look at the Vienna Agreements and the mutual extradiction treaties.  I promise you nobody has ever been deported solely to obey some kind of draft requirement.  Secondly, the draft gets its list from the Social Services board and with your son being 13 I don't think he's registered yet.

You need to fly that family of yours to Europe for a while and let your wife and kids see what it's like here.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 02:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, consider Ireland.  Not sure if they are still up to it but they had the whole Celtic tiger thing before the dot com crash.  Also Dublin is a great city and travel is cheap to Europe proper vial ryan air....

The only international crime is losing a war
by Luam (uretskyj at gmail.com) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 06:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Amen.  Dublin is one of the nicest cities in Europe.  I know Soj likes Romania but I doubt most Americans would.  My experience is 15 years old so things may be much better, but if your wife is nervous, better stick to W. Europe.  The pay will be much better too, but the cost of living may equalize that.

One thing re the UK.  They don't tend to pay technical people squat.  Might be better at the PHD level, but the average engineer is poorly paid vs the US, France or Germany.  In UK parlance a repairman is an "engineer" and they pay accordingly.

by HiD on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 11:13:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should think seriously about this.  Both my wife and I love Ireland.  I used to play a ton of Irish traditional music, though I've started playing more American fiddle tunes recently.  I'll keep this in mind.

How difficult is it to become an Irish citzen?

by guleblanc on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 08:39:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
no idea.  In the UK they gave us perm residency after 4 years on a work permit.  By the time we got it, my wife was already sick of the weather and I was sick of the job stress.  So we walked away a couple of years later.

I suspect you'll have an easier time in Eire if you have Irish ancestors.  Google around.  There are good sites on Italian rules/regs so prob some on Eire as well.

by HiD on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 12:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A PhD in software engineering, backed up by experience is very welcome in the UK, particularly in the embedded industry.

To take a local example, my niece's partner has a PhD in Control Engineering from a UK university and is a senior software engineer for an embedded controls company.

The one major problem in the UK is where. Rather like in the USA, the areas with the best jobs have the highest housing costs. Buying a house in the Cambridge area for example will, for a family with a couple of kids, cost anything from £200k to £800k.

The houses are also very different to the US, with smaller plots, area and room size.

If you want to check out houses try Primelocation

Eats cheroots and leaves.

by NeutralObserver on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 12:12:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Seriously - I would never move to UK, because they speak English. If you are going to move overseas, why not make a total adventure of it? Your kids will be able to translate for you in 3 months, I guarantee it.

I moved to Germany knowing NO German (I was already fluent in French, though). I could hold a functional conversation after 4 months. By the end of the 2nd year, I was fluent. By the end of the 3rd year, I could speak rather creatively/poetically -- not just functionally.

The caveats that Soj mentions are so true, though. Although I believe it's the second year in country that you want to kill everyone you meet. First year, everything's kinda new and exciting. By the second year, all you want is a burrito/slice/collards and you keep wishing for the relative efficiency of the Dept of Motor Vehicles. Being away from friends and especially family is really hard, though.  

By the third year -- you've made some long-term friends, you've started forgetting the English words for things ("fork" and "knife" always flummoxed me when I went back to visit the 'rents), and you start to get nervous if you're back in the States for too long.

Personally, I'd dig on moving to Eastern Europe at some point -- but right now the goal is either Shanghai, Tokyo, Hong Kong or Seoul. Because it's time to learn another language!

Just another science harpy.

by xray the enforcer (xraytheenforcer at gmx dot net) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 06:57:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Although one of the things I miss from when I was doing graduate research in Prague is the pizza. Way better than I can get in MI.
by emptywheel (emptywheel at earthlink dot net) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 09:26:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting.  I am taken by the prospect of learning languages.  For half a century I was a language disaster.  I took French in high school, and only passed when I promised my teacher I would never take French again in my life.  I took Russian in college, but it was not very successful.  But then, about 3 years ago, on a lark I took an Esperanto grammar book on a camping vacation, along with a dictionary and a translation of Murder on the Orient Express by Agatha Christie.  I was astounded that I could actually get through most of the book by the end of the week vacation.  I'm now pretty fluent in Esperanto, and I am interested in seeing if that skill has any effect on learning a less regular, less rational language like German or French.
by guleblanc on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 09:39:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wish you and your family much luck and courage either way -- and anywhere you choose as your destination!

as a tip -- if you managed to learn Esperanto, you've already mastered the hard part -- training your brain to pick out linguistic patterns. It really is a process, like writing code.

It's the compiling that's a bitch. ;-)

Just another science harpy.

by xray the enforcer (xraytheenforcer at gmx dot net) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 10:31:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, let's be realistic here: you are worried about hardcore christians, and you move to Poland? You don't know what you are doing :) For a non-christian, Poland is probably one of the worst places on earth to live in. Soviet rule allowed a number of unpopular laws to pass, including legal abortion etc, but they are constantly challenged in a way much similar to the new "born-again" trend in the US. I personally know some very nice people from Poland, but if I dare say something slightly critical of any christian denomination (especially the Catholic Church) they get aggressive in a way that I never experienced in, say, "faithful" countries like Italy, Spain or Greece.
by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 10:26:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm engaged to a wonderful bohemian-Hessian hippy chick.  My languages are working Spanish, improving German, and once very fluent Russian, so I can get around.  This is my second year in Germany and while I do the research part of the future letters behind my name that starts with a P, I will get German credentials in another MA, this time in theater production which dovetails with my research.  I love it, one little thing I love is being able to take an afternoon off and have a glass of wine by the Rhein while reading Heinrich Heine.  For me, life is good here.

Hope that helps.

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 07:01:19 AM EST
Well I am an American who DID move to Europe.. in this case Romania, in E. Europe.

I can tell you that there is an excellent expat website for Americans in Britain you can find here which can help you answer some of those technical questions.

Emotionally it's another story.. esp in UK.  Just because they speak English doesn't mean it's not a completely foreign country, because it is! Trust me on this one.  And it's a lot more than "tea time" and "crumpets" too.

It takes about a year before you can feel "home" in a new country and there will always be things you miss, sometimes painfully so.  Me I miss collard greens sometimes so much it hurts.  Other little things crop up too, like no Thanksgiving.  And people in foreign countries do things in a foreign way, sometimes frustratingly so.

I will tell you that in Europe, both EU and future EU europe, things are quite nice here.  You should come for a long visit and see how it feels to you.  In the UK you'll get health care, safe streets, a healthy political debate and LOTS and LOTS of newspapers to read.  You'll also get community centers like pubs, which many are perfectly safe and appropriate for the entire family...

Britain can be super expensive and I know their visa regime is pretty stiff, so definitely look into getting a job before you come.  I know they have some good information on their embassy's website which you can find here.

But why not try some other European cities as well? Kids at that age can learn foreign languages very well and many advanced jobs are open to people who speak English.

I wouldn't quite recommend Romania to you and your family, but what about France or Germany or Italy? All quite lovely places to live.  Or Holland too, as Page I'm sure will tell you ;)

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 07:21:06 AM EST
Emotionally it's another story.. esp in UK.  Just because they speak English doesn't mean it's not a completely foreign country, because it is! Trust me on this one.  And it's a lot more than "tea time" and "crumpets" too.

Funny that you say that. For an average Italian-born like me, northern England is the closest thing to non-metropolitan U.S. I could possibly imagine (that is: big junk-food franchises everywhere, same shops in every town, total urban disgregation from the suburbs, large toll-free roads, etc).

by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 10:49:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In terms of geography and pop. culture, I think the non-metropolitan US is nothing like Britain - no matter where you go. Its interesting you mention sprawl - I think Britain is light years ahead of the US in terms of urban planning. Really, the closest you'll come to US culture without actually being the US is probably in Australia or Canada.  Canada (even Quebec included) is considerably more similar to the US than Britain is.

Then again, I've lived in Canada, the US, and Britain - not Italy!

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 11:14:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Northern Britain is comparable to Western Massachusetts or rural New Jersey.

Real rural America is South Dakota or Utah or Oklahoma: A desert 2000 miles wide desert.

A problem in any discussion like this is how few Europeans actually go to Nebraska, say. A holiday in Florida with a side trip to NYC or Washington, DC comletely misses the American experience. You need to drive from St Louis to the Grand Canyon, or from Boise to Amarillo...

by asdf on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 05:49:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Sedona AZ did get a taste of what the word "rural" means in the US.

We were talking at the ceremony about how few Americans have passports. All the Europeans (mostly from Ireland) were aghast.

But then when we caught up with some of them in Las Vegas, they understood: "I couldn't believe those towns on Route 40, hundreds of miles from the next town I understand now why they don't have passports. Their countryside encompasses an entire world."

Note, too, that one of the most popular Euro-US vacations, the "Red Circle" (or some such name), a circle from Las Vegas through the red rocks of UT and back through the Grand Canyon, definitely takes them through a lot of rural America. The Mormon towns in S. Utah have gotten a LOT more cosmopolitan as a result of the tours (you can get coffee now, and bagels). But they're still pretty rural.

by emptywheel (emptywheel at earthlink dot net) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 09:31:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Again, I wouldn't even agree to this proposition. I think New York state outside NYC compares to Ontario outside of Toronto, not to the UK outside of London. Syracuse is nothing like Sheffield.

I think the only really analogous places to the US are Canada and perhaps Australia (although I'll hold off on Australia as a comparison, 'cause I've never been there).

Ben P

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 01:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Australia's not a good comparison because it's very, very urban. Outside of the (few) cities it is essentially deserted. Australia would compare to the Nevada/Utah sort of American desert, but not to the area east of the Mississippi--or even Kansas.
by asdf on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 03:46:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you can still vote in federal elections.  and in some states you can even vote in state and local elections.

but you will not be paying us taxes (you still need to file however) and you'll be contributing to a generally progressive country.

so yes, i think it's a perfect time.  and please get involved with democrats abroad if you do move overseas.

by Kevin Lyda (kevin@ie.suberic.net) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 09:46:47 AM EST
... and check out different places. If you get mad as soon as the telephone line goes down and it's not repaired in a couple of days, avoid southern Italy or northern Spain. Same for bureaucracy. If you can't stand "culinary crime", run from England and Ireland.

You'll have to get accustomed at being some kind of "attraction" because you are an exotic foreign; but (French and Londoners apart) most people will react very well to it  and will enthusiastically ask you everything about your country. Scandinavians will be more polite than you can ever imagine.

All in all, think about what your life might realistically be over here, especially job-wise.

by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 10:41:49 AM EST
Oh, and we mainland Europeans hate to admit it, but we love the american accent :)
by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 10:43:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which one?

There are at least half a dozen major flavors of American accents, and a lot of variations in between.

by Cascadia Progressive on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 01:41:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the telephone line goes down?  I could only hope that my cell phone goes down at the same time...preferably while I'm watching the clouds go by in a cafe in a Tuscan village!

Paradise!

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 12:13:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
even if there was a split and a new "core europe" without the UK, there would still be agreements to keep most of the practical stuff in place, like there is with Switzerland and Norway. In all likelihood, you'd still be able to travel, work etc as easily then as now. You may need to get another currency when you travel, but that's already the case...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 12:53:26 PM EST
It can't be overstated how much you can learn on an extended vacation to Europe (or anywhere else). Our American system tends to lead people to take short whirlwind vacations on the "If it's Tuesday this must be Belgium" sort. I would suggest renting a house in the place you're considering and just try to live in the local environment for a month or six weeks. It won't be the same as really living there, but it will expose you to a lot more than you get on a regular touring-style vacation. I find personally that after about three weeks overseas, even in the most beautiful and easy-to-cope-with places (Switzerland, New Zealand, London), the American Way starts to get attractive again... Foreign countries are exactly that: Foreign.

My favorite: Are you aware that you will have to pay several hundred Euros for a TV license? That's just the beginning...

There are lots of relocation sites on the web, like:
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_content_subchannel.asp?subchannel_id=22&name=France+Relocati on

by asdf on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 02:20:21 PM EST
It is a very difficult journey I have been in England for almost 5 years now.  The transition is easier for me because I have been a student.  Chances are I will be back in the US(s)A in the fall as my writing up time is drawing to a close and that is where I found a Job.

I don't think that I would flee to the UK for political reasons.  It is the easy place to flee from as it is free of language problems (although your American English will be the but of many a joke).  If you want a liberal climate you would do better in Northern California or NYC than you would in most of Britain.  Blair is just as much of a wanker as Bush although he will probably be gone in less than two years.  And if the current agenda is any indication, British law is becoming more and more authoritarian.  In the name of traffic reduction as well as terror.

Living overseas grows wearisome with time.  The first year is the best, the second the worst (so far).  The little things really add up and get to you.  From customer service to the gentle ribbing of your friends.

There are a lot of advantages to living overseas, but if your main motivation is to go into self declared political exile I wouldn't choose the UK.  They are right behind the US on most of our worst policies, they just get less blame.  Remember Blair's Britain is of few supposedly left of centre governments which went along with Bush to Iraq.

Then again ask me again when I've had more sleep.

PS I am thinking about running a set of diaries in September, about the attempt to "go back".   If it doesn't show up that means I probably need a bit of pestering, or am still in England

PPS One really strange thing is that at the same time I forget that I am a foreigner, and revel in the status of being a foreigner.  Do others of you in Europe feel similar sensations?

The only international crime is losing a war

by Luam (uretskyj at gmail.com) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 06:36:25 PM EST
Couldn't agree more.  Much as I liked my 6 years in the UK, I'm not sure I'd go there just to flee the US.  I'd try a warmer climate like Italy, Portugal or France (but without the languages that's not so easy either).

Weather is atrocious.  Winter seems like it lasts 10 months some years.  Prices are brutal.  I had expat wages and my wife could work off my permit (before our green cards) so we had a large income.  On regular English wages like our co-workers--life not so easy.  Better check on the budget situation before you leap.  Bushite thinking can't last forever.

Things got progressivly better as the Sunday trading laws fell and we bought a house in suburbia (renting is not for me).   I wouldn't trade the opportunity to see all we saw in those 6 years for anything, but don't kid yourself into thinking it will be as easy as moving within the US.

by HiD on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 11:01:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree and disagree. Britain is in some ways much more progressive than the US, but in other ways its more backwards. I wouldn't make too much of Blair's support for the Iraq War - its really quite hard to find people who support in the UK. Things like the religious right and there isssues don't exist, either.

Indeed, its much less religious than the US, there's less censorship of sex, its more hedonistic (partying wise). Also - depending on how you feel about the welfare state - being in favor of the government performing basic services is generally seen as much more acceptable. In general people are more willing to give up something to promote the common good.

But in other, rather strange ways, Britain is a more illiberal, authoritarian culture. i.e. people tend to be more willing in the US to hold what I would term "common sense" "law and order" positions and are much more willing to violate individual privacy to maintain order - I think this is the flip side to the welfare state in many ways. Also, I think in much of Britain, there is still a greater degree of hostility to outsiders and to new ideas than you would find in comparable places in the US. I think you will find this especially amongst working class folks. Although the class divide has broken down over time, I think that as a (middle class I'm assuming American), it will still take you aback a bit.

I should note finally that there is definetly a British culture that is distinct to the US. In many ways, language is all the two countries have in common - Canada is, culturally, really much closer to the US than is Britain. This manifests itself in some of the ways I mention above, but also in all kinds of little things that add up - like the way patriotism is manifested, the kinds of sports people like, a much more public, less private mode of socializing, etc.. There is a distinct "way of life" in Britain in a way I don't think there is to such a great degree in the US.

 

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 11:31:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I often hear people talk about how much safer Europe is, but my co-workers and acquaintances from Britain have all said that violent street crime is a big problem there.  One of my co-workers from Edinburgh said he has been mugged several times there and that closed circuit video cameras are installed in many public areas throughout Britain to monitor the public in an effort to deter crime.  Also, attendance at sporting events is said to be much more dangerous in Britain than in the U.S.  I'm just wondering if Americans are so accustomed to being aware of crime here in the U.S. that they tend to let their guards down in Europe when they need to be just as concerned, at least in some urban areas.  
by Grand Poobah on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 07:53:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
things are relative.  crime is huge in the uk right now compared to what crime was like in the uk's recent history (at least it is if you believe the tabloids).

they are not comparing crime rates in the uk to crime in america.

by Kevin Lyda (kevin@ie.suberic.net) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 08:07:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Americans tend to think of Belfast as a very dangerous city, sort of like Baghdad or Basrah.  But the number of murders in all of Ireland, North and South, was a few years ago about 1/10 the number of murders in Detroit.  Usonians don't think of Detroit as nearly as dangerous as Belfast, but statistically it is.
by guleblanc on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 09:29:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Murder rates throughout Europe are definitely lower than in the U.S. as Europeans don't carry handguns in the numbers we have in U.S.   However, my understanding from the British people I've met is that other violent crime is comparable to the U.S., if not greater in some areas.  Violent crime is also a problem in French cities. I don't know how it compares to other nations but I do know that there are some very dodgy areas around Paris and many of the southern cities in France are known to have high street crime.  I've never spoken to people from Ireland about crime.
by Grand Poobah on Thu Jun 30th, 2005 at 10:31:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
while there are ghettos and street-gangs like everywhere else in Europe, it's nothing like the war-zone that tabloid and "little people" boast every single day. Tabloids are owned by big industry tycoons that like to keep people distracted with this kind of sillyness to avoid them looking at the big picture and worry about serious social-justice stuff. UK's "unwashed masses" are constantly brainwashed in a Faux-News style pretty much every day. Even educated folks accept this state of things, silently laughing at people believing in columns from "The Sun". It's quite embarrassing, really.
by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Fri Jul 1st, 2005 at 09:24:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One really strange thing is that at the same time I forget that I am a foreigner, and revel in the status of being a foreigner.  Do others of you in Europe feel similar sensations?

Definitely! Wow... I remember I was in Timişoara on business in the central plaza last month (with a Romanian associate) and I saw a bunch of American tourists, chatting about the Revolution and pointing out the sites.  I whispered in my associate's ear to look at the foreigners and we talked for a moment about them.

It wasn't until several minutes later that me I was from the same country as them and equally "foreign" haha gosh it still makes me laugh.  

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 09:37:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Strongly agree with others here who have said you really need to get your family over to Europe and explore your options.

I also think you need to set aside the language issue for a bit and seriously consider other fundamental issues.

Eg - England is massively crowded. There are 70 million people living on a tiny island. If you are from part of the USA with big skies, the sky in england feels like it's 20 feet from your head, it always seems to be grey, and you'll never see a big sky again. As a 'big sky'  Australian who is half brit & has spent a lot of time there, I can tell you of scores of Australians who could have stayed but came back for this reason alone.

The over-crowding is a serious issue; it makes the UK very expensive, but services are certainly not equal to the price. At least in other parts of Europe you would pay similarly high prices, but receive outstanding services (eg do you want the British national health care, or somewhere in Scandinavia -'s?)

You'll get taxed more in general across Europe, but you'll get much better services. As someone with a family, I suggest you need to do some cost/benefit analyses as best you can on different countries to help you way this sort of thing up.

Climate - a major issue; don't take it for granted or you'll regret it.

Job opportunities - ditto.

Culture - the only way you're going to work out which European countries have cultures that you could 'fit' with is by going over and experiencing them, combined with research. I'll put money that if you did this, the UK would not be your first choice. There are also weird surprises - I wonder now for eg, if I would have agreed to work for a year in Switzerland, if I'd known that they took until 1971 to give women the vote!  - use your imagination as to how this played out societally in terms of gender roles and expectations. One concrete eg - all primary school children are expected to go home for lunch (at least where I lived), ie there was an in-built assumption that the little wifey would be home to pick up, feed & return the kidlets to school. Truly frightening.

Language - I lived in Switzerland for a year and travelled quite widely in Western Europe. I rarely got a chance to try out my nascent German or remember my high-school French, as everyone spoke nigh-on flawless english and always accommodated me (sometimes to my total frustration - I wanted to practise!). So I'd suggest that depending on what countries you are willing to look at, language is nowhere near the barrier your wife might think.

Also, in all seriousness, point out to her that multi-linguality uses parts of the brain and increases intelligence in fundamental ways, something that Americans and Australians routinely don't realise or value, and hence miss out on. Learning a foreign language (or 2) would be an absolute boon to your children in many ways.

Anyways, I think if you are really serious about this, you need to realise it's probably going to take a year for you and your wife to thoroughly research this, explore options, and reach a decision. I would certainly recommend against a relatively spontaneous decision - the culture shock and major adjustment difficulties your family would no doubt experience would be awful.

"This can't possibly get more disturbing!" - Willow

by myriad (imogenk at wildmail dot com) on Tue Jun 28th, 2005 at 09:01:10 PM EST
I've been thinking more on this, since I saw your post yesterday...and reading all the comments here, lots of good perspectives. I'm in Switzerland, and even though it was once less supportive of women, I don't think it is as nearly repressive for women now(and my wife definitely wouldn't put up with that either). Geneva is a French and English speaking city...lots of English speakers, as does Zurich, where English is the business language. You might want to consider checking with multi-national companies, or even with the UN (though they make you move a lot), or Universities...but I think you will find your IT background to be in demand. Ireland and Netherlands are other countries to consider too. And what do your kids think of this? It might be an interesting family project to really research Europe as a potential place to move. Thus far I have lived here 10 months, and I have been warmly welcomed...BUT...because my work is people oriented (psychology and NGO management), I have found it real challenging to get established in work...and that has made it hard to feel integrated into society here, thus contributing to an occasional bad day (though I'm making headway). But also, the culture here is incredible...so that is a good balance. Funny...what I'm really missing is an occasional SF Giants baseball game (even though they suck now), seeing my friends, and...Laura Scudders chunky peanut butter (which I'm craving!).

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 01:03:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I stated up-thread, Germany is begging for IT types like yourself.  What I forgot to mention is that Germany is also very big on intergration, which is what they consider a problem with their immigrants, that they integrate into German society but stick with their own communities.  As a solution, the German govt. will send you and your family to free intensive language courses, such as the Goethe Institute with a branch in every major city.  Plus, they are trying to transform the Ruhrgebeit region, once Germany's power house industrial area, into kinda a German version of silicon valley.

Keep in mind that your kids will have to perform national service, whether in the military (18 months) or civil (2 years), but as of right now, University is free and I have no complaints about my health care.

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 01:45:43 AM EST
has compulsory miltary involvement for all men. But...they won't be attacking Iraq, or anywhere else...

Wonder what other country requirements are, re: the military?

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!

by whataboutbob on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 01:59:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do people keep a military rifle behind their front doors in Switzerland? Or is that an American misunderstanding of how the national service works?
by asdf on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 05:54:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I find it hilarious (in a good way) that you even have Marines... and one boat for them!
by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 08:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A german friend of mine in Graduate School once told me a story.  He said that Luxembourg wanted to have a military parade for some national holiday, and they were determined to have a tank in the parade.  However, they did not have a tank.  So, they called up the Swiss and asked to borrow one.  The Swiss general in charge of lending hardware to other countries said "Sure, it's fine with us.  Would you like only one, or would you like both of them?"
by guleblanc on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 08:48:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by whataboutbob on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 08:53:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the guns tend to be kept in the closet...have never seen one in a home, though regularly see guys going off for their month stints packing rifles and semi-automatics on the train.

There's a boat? (well, there's lots of lakes...)

I am not that familiar with the Swiss army and marines, but I think they do occasionally do special humanitarian missions, besides the typical defense focus.

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!

by whataboutbob on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 08:51:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't forget that the Swiss won the America's cup, the grandest sailing competition around!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 10:45:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't that something!! (Of course, it helped having a Kiwi Captain...)

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 10:47:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is very interesting.  I'm not in principle opposed to military service, although as a Unitarian I have more pacific instincts than most Americans I suspect.  I'm opposed to military service in the service of making rich people even richer.
by guleblanc on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 08:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Uhh, German national service is a nine month service whether in the military or civil.
by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Thu Jun 30th, 2005 at 11:56:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've read about popular Argentina steak restaurants in the UK, but are there Mexican, Chinese or Thai restaurants in Europe? Are there 'American' restaurants (excepting fast food corporate gruel)?
by capslock on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 01:36:08 PM EST
Yes, plenty. Of course, like anywhere, you're going to get more variety in larger, more cosmopolitan cities.

But, in the UK, there are Indian restaurants, Kebab shops, and the like pretty much in every samll town up.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 01:46:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I had some of the best N Indian food ever in Glasgow.  ironically also some of the worst fish and chips... thorougly Americanised, yuck.  I can remember real fish and chips from my UK childhood -- served in newspaper, dripping with grease and vinegar, caught just offshore of my grandparents' village.  of course that was before we crashed the N Atl cod fisheries...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 03:54:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It will totally depend on where you live, but don't ever expect to get a decent burrito unless you make it yourself. Of course, I speak as a Californian who hasn't found a decent burrito in NYC either.

Basically, unless you move to a small city or smaller, you should have almost all the options open to you. Berlin was missing only a pho shop and Dim Sum when I lived there. Sushi was outrageously expensive, but it did exist.

In the smaller German city where I lived prior to my Berlin stint, though, no sushi. No indian. No chinese. No decent Italian, even! It had a couple of good Turkish places, a fairly decent veggie restaurant, and a whole lot of Rheinish food. Go figger.

Just another science harpy.

by xray the enforcer (xraytheenforcer at gmx dot net) on Wed Jun 29th, 2005 at 05:58:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I supose that in any event you will get more and better restaurant options than aywhere in the US (save maybe NYC).

'La fin désastreuse a répondu aux moyens indignes' Germain Tillion
by Rom on Thu Jun 30th, 2005 at 08:28:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My wife and I mived to the South of France last February, after selling our house in LA and buying property here. We have a blog that details our relocation here stating from Jan. 25th or thereabout.

We both had dual ciotiozenship, spoke the language, were familiar with the culture and had some friends in the area so we did it under pretty ideal conditions, though uprooting ourselves after 25 years was a wrench at fist; but we haven't regretted any of it and feel much happier.

From the bottom of my heart, good luck, and to anyone passing in the vicinity of Carcassonne, let us know (through the blog) and there'll always be a bowl of soupe for you at our table.

by Lupin on Thu Jun 30th, 2005 at 10:40:11 AM EST
What about Australia, mate?
by deano (deanoist at gmail dot com) on Thu Jun 30th, 2005 at 06:41:33 PM EST
I thought it is very difficult for people over 50 to immigrate to Australia, and it is essentially impossible to get Australian citzenship.
by guleblanc on Tue Jul 5th, 2005 at 11:14:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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