Multiple Explosions in London?

by Colman
Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 05:38:52 AM EST

There's massive confusion in the media here: confirmed explosions on London Underground, confirmed explosions on at least three buses around London. The London Underground is completely closed down, roads are closed, and a large scale anti-terror operation has been launched. Confusion and fear rein. Reports of wounded, but no details.

Europhobia has good coverage: most of the main stream news sites are paralysed. RTE has this.

Lots of updates moved below the fold

Update [2005-7-7 9:35:39 by Colman]: Unconfirmed figure of 45 dead and 1000 injured - ambulance sources through Sky News.

Update [2005-7-7 10:32:29 by Colman]:From the comments by Canberra Boy:

Police and emergency services briefing now live on BBC World & CNN Int'l: tube bombs killed 7, 21, 5 respectively (you were right about King's Cross, Colman) and fatalities from bus bomb not certain (sounds ugly ie a lot of small pieces).
That's it for now: I'll do a summary story later when we have a clearer picture of what happened.


Update [2005-7-7 5:39:55 by Colman]: Sky news now reporting deaths

Update [2005-7-7 5:59:24 by Colman]:This bus was reportedly full of people moved off the underground.

Update [2005-7-7 5:59:24 by Colman]: At least 90 casualties at Aldgate station. '"Scores reported dead". Aldgate "pretty grim" according to a mate of a mate - loads of smoke.' (From Europhobia)

Update [2005-7-7 6:7:48 by Colman]: Now being described as a "highly sophisticated" terrorist attack.

Update [2005-7-7 6:19:2 by Colman]: (from Europhobia) "BBC News 24: Talk of a train crash at Kings Cross. Police say Tavistock Sq is *not* the major incident. Kings Cross is the major incident."

Update [2005-7-7 6:23:37 by Colman]: British Telecom have gone to emergency mode so it may be difficult to put calls through to mobile phones, and possibly landlines. 20 fatalities I'm afraid. Army units are being reported in Covent Garden. RTE report that the Army is being deployed on the streets of London.

Update [2005-7-7 6:39:58 by Colman]: Official casualty count is 2.

Update [2005-7-7 7:1:1 by Colman]: Reports of "many" people arriving at hospitals missing limbs. The fatality count is going to get much worse I suspect. Unconfirmed rumours put it at 30.

Update [2005-7-7 7:22:50 by Colman]: The Metropolitan Police Commissioner doesn't have a solid idea of how many attacks there were. Still only 2 confirmed dead, officials talking about 20 dead.

Update [2005-7-7 8:9:2 by Colman]: Der Spiegel is reporting that Al Qaeda is claiming responsibilty, whatever that means.

Update [2005-7-7 8:35:21 by Colman]: Now four explosions. Confusion because the explosions happened between stations. Three attacks on tubes, one on a bus. Rescue still going on at Kings Cross.

Update [2005-7-7 9:35:39 by Colman]: Unconfirmed figure of 45 dead and 1000 injured - ambulance sources through Sky News.

Update [2005-7-7 10:32:29 by Colman]:From the comments by Canberra Boy:

Police and emergency services briefing now live on BBC World & CNN Int'l: tube bombs killed 7, 21, 5 respectively (you were right about King's Cross, Colman) and fatalities from bus bomb not certain (sounds ugly ie a lot of small pieces).
That's it for now: I'll do a summary story later when we have a clearer picture of what happened.

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    From:       snowmail_daily@channel4.com
    Subject:     BREAKING NEWS: Major explosions in London

*Breaking news*

London Underground has suspended all services following reports of explosions near Liverpool St and Edgware Road this morning.
We are also receiving news of explosions on a number of buses including one in Tavistock Square - and further explosions on the Piccadily Line near King's Cross.

Emergency services were called to London's Liverpool Street Station after reports of an explosion shortly before 9am.

British Transport Police said the incident, reported at at 8.49am on the Metropolitan Line between Liverpool Street and Aldgate.

London Underground said: "The network has been suspended until further notice and all stations are being evacuated.

"This follows major incidents at Liverpool Street and Edgware Road (Hammersmith & City) stations. Emergency services are on site and are working closely with London Underground."

A spokesman for the City of London Police said there were "quite a large number of casualties" at Aldgate Station.

Mainline train company First Great Western said its services into London's Paddington station were terminating at Reading in Berkshire because of the Underground crisis.

More to follow and at Noon on Channel 4.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 05:46:25 AM EST
OK. There are credible reports of at least three bombs on buses and I think we can now infer that there was a bomb on a tube train in the Aldgate area that has led to a cascade effect on the network from Edgware Road to Liverpool Street. This has led to the shutdown of the entire network - this suggests to me that we are dealing with a bomb on the network.

There is at least one confirmed fatality at this point and suggestions that there may well be a further two. There is no information regarding the "central" incident on the tube - that I am inferring from the information that has been given - there has now been a suggestion on Sky news of numerous fatalities - this has yet to be confirmed.

At any rate - all the news channels and politicians are explicity taling about a terrorist attack now.

by londanium on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 05:52:57 AM EST
At least 90 casualties are now being reported from Aldgate Station.
by londanium on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 05:56:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I posted them at BooTrib.  Keep us posted.

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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 05:55:46 AM EST
Here is the link to their article.

An explosion has "ripped a bus apart" just minutes after a number of blasts on London's Underground.Scotland Yard has confirmed there has been an explosion on a bus in Tavistock Place. Union sources claim there have been reports of blasts on three different buses.

Witness Belinda Seabrook said she saw an explosion rip though a bus as it approached Russell Square.



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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:00:03 AM EST
Feed from Sky Producer ... Bomb was in top deck at the back of bus ... lots of bodies being treated on ground ... fear and chaos ... hundreds of thousands crowding around hotels and pubs ... looking at televisions ... frightening experience ...
Ken Livingstone rushing home from Singapore ... German rail network adapting security measures ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:00:24 AM EST
already posted "Survivor Tales" of the blasts.

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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:02:16 AM EST
Anyone with access to UK TV around? I don't.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:05:22 AM EST
Sorry Colman, I'm here in the states but have been trying to locate articles via Google.

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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:07:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm using Irish radio. Report from Capitol radio in London on now ... bombs on Underground and buses ... lots of public concern and panic ... at least one explosive device found on Underground ... talk of British Telecom closing down all phone lines ... bus services in Central London suspended ...  no widespread pandemonium ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:13:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Switching between Sky and BBC at present. I'm trying to contact friend who works in area to confirm that he's ok - but mobile networks are jammed.

Met Police Commisioner, Ian Blair, has confirmed at least 6 explosions: 1 at Aldgate, 1 possible at Edgware, 3 on buses and 1 further on the tube network that I have so far been unable to indentify.

by londanium on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:25:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From Europhobia:

Met thinks there have been 6 explosions - 5 on the Tube, 1 on a bus.

Official list of explosions

Aldgate East
Norgate
Russell Sq
Liverpool St
Edgware Rd
Kings Cross

Met asking media not to speculate!

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:27:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Link is here (via MSNBC.com)

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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:08:51 AM EST
to speak soon.  It's all over the american cable channels

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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:12:57 AM EST
at 7:00am EDT (not sure what time that is in Europe)

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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:18:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Eyewitness on Russell Square now ... knocked off feet by blast ... counting staff to check none are missing ... massive traffic jam ... talk of evacuating buildings in the area of the British Museum ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:16:20 AM EST
is reporting that Israel officials received warnings just prior to the bombings (taken with a grain of salt due to the source)

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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:35:41 AM EST
that Scotland Yard notified Israeli Senior Officials rather than the other way around (just prior to bombs)

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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:37:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Blair to speak from Gleneagles at noon (7AM EDT) and Charles Clarke to speak to the Commons at quarter past twelve (715EDT) - likely that Clarke's will be delayed to allow discussion after Blair's before he speaks.

FYI, I'm sitting in London watching the BBC News24 feed.

by Scipio on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:43:19 AM EST
from the BBC:



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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:44:06 AM EST
To give some context...

Edgeware Road is a reasonably busy station on the edge of the West End. It's also in the center of London's downtown Arab community. King's Cross is one of the busiest stations in London, and is a major junction between communter rail and Tube trains. It's in th eprocess of being rebuilt to deal with the new Eurostar extension. Russel Square and Tavistock Square and very posh areas of town, and on the edge of some major banking areas. Bank is right on the edge of the City of London, and would have been heavily used by businessmen on the last legs of their journeys to their offices. Liverpool Street is on one side of the City, and is another link from commuter rail to the tube. Moorgate is also a comuter station, but would have been less busy than the other City stations.

by Scipio on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:49:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Russell Square is one of the deepest and least accessible stations - there's no escalator access - just a very windy staircase or a lift. People rarely use the staircase as it's a hefty walk.
by londanium on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:30:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reports of medical teams still entering Russell Square station, hotels being pressed into use as emergency stations in areas full of medical facilities ... seriously injured being stretchered out ... medical staff bringing black plastic bags of medical supplies into the station ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 06:45:33 AM EST
"clear that there are a series of terrorist attacks in London.......

....it's my intention to lead the G8 and get a report face-to-face....and then return later this evening....the meeting will continue in my absence....each of the countries at the table have experienced the effects of terrorism....share our complete resolution to defeat terrorism....barbaric that this has happened today....clear that it has been designed to coincide with the opening of the G8....it is our determination that they will never succeed in destroying what we hold dear in this country and other civilized nations....  (best I could do)

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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:05:45 AM EST
Says that it's terrorists dedicated to ruining the G8 meetings. He will be coming down to London for a few hours, and then returning to Gleneagles in the evening.

BBC announces 7 explosions, although no news as to where the seventh one took place.

Charles Clarke's up next.

by Scipio on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:07:03 AM EST
I am at work in Piccadilly. There are no buses on the street, and some ambulances down in Carlton Terrace, not far from Trafalgar Square. I am trying to work, but it's hard. We have been told not to leave the building. Mobile phones are up the creek. A long walk home tonight.

I am not sure what the public reaction will be. I hope for a Spain-style backlash against Blair, there is still a lot of anger against him over Iraq, and this is one reason I didn't want London to win the Olympics, I didn't think we deserved it, and we won't be able to hold it safely.

by Ineluctable on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:07:25 AM EST
Sorry, I meant Carlton House Terrace, which runs parallel to The Mall.
by Ineluctable on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:09:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With a flip to whom? The LD's just arn't credible to run the country, and the Tories would be wore. Besides, there's no election for a few years.

Personally, he seems to me to be doing well.

by Scipio on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:10:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are local elections in May 2006, and already New Labour is worried, so many swing seats, so many reasons to swing. The LDs are building credibility from the ground up, even though they are a bit weird on not supporting things like minimum wage.

The best result from all this would be to accelerate pull-out of UK troops (and RAF, which has been supporting USAF in attacks on Karabilah in June 2005) from Iraq.

However, I fear it may mean the opposite, and lead to deployment of UK armed forces in support of US attacks on Syria and Iran.

by Ineluctable on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:27:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
.
Suggestion for next city to be bombed to solve our anger ...
What about Tehran tomorrow?

We're staying the course, got them on the run.
BTW What was the link Iraq - Saddam Hussein and 9-11 attack?
George just last week motivated the brilliant counterattack of pre-emption to occupy Iraq in order to fight the terrorists on their soil.

The 45 minute time frame of Tony Blair was in fact 841 days 7 hours 16 min 30 sec.

       

DEFENSE SECRETARY DONALD RUMSFELD: I think we're probably watching something that is somewhat historic.

TERENCE SMITH: Defense Sec. Donald Rumsfeld acknowledged the importance of the embedding process, but cautioned that the close-up view is not always complete.

DONALD RUMSFELD: And what we are seeing is not the war in Iraq; what we're seeing are slices of the war in Iraq.

We're seeing that particularized perspective that that reporter or that commentator or that television camera happens to be able to see at that moment, and it is not what's taking place. What you see is taking place, to be sure, but it is one slice, and it is the totality of that that is what this war is about.

UK and Great Britain civilians just got served another slice of the totality of what war is all about, when you invade a sovereign nation after all deceit and lies.

America's Ministry of Propaganda Exposed

A Strategy of Lies: How the White House Fed the Public a Steady Diet of Falsehoods

Colonel Sam Gardiner (USAF, Ret.) has identified 50 false news stories created and leaked by a secretive White House propaganda apparatus. Bush administration officials are probably having second thoughts about their decision to play hardball with former US Ambassador Joseph Wilson. Joe Wilson is a contender. When you play hardball with Joe, you better be prepared to deal with some serious rebound.

[Very enlighting to read all of it!]

GOEBBELS: "We came from the people, we remain part of the people, and see ourselves as the executor of the people's will."

     

USA WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooMan Tribune and add some cheers!

by Oui on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:18:05 AM EST
You know, just today I wonder if you would shut the fuck up? Thanks.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:20:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I normally don't take sides but you're completely out of line in your response to Oui.

If you have a factual disagreement with anything he wrote, by all means post it. But casual insults and swear words won't cut it and are beneath this forum.

If you want to mourn in isolation, my prayers are with you, but do so in isolation, not here, not by attacking others.

Let me remind you that 17 civilians, villagers, were killed by air strikes in Afghnistan just the other day as part of Ops to rescue our missing SEALS.

As always, who sows the wind....

by Lupin on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:52:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
.
Response here was different.
I respect the UK emotions, no harm done.

Our thoughts and prayers are with the innocent victims, wounded, friends and family.

Peace!

USA WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooMan Tribune and add some cheers!

by Oui on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 03:49:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's try and keep the politics out of this for now.  There are people dead, the human rights issue is most pertinent at this point.

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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:22:15 AM EST
The human rights issue is politics. The consequences of this event (decided upon by the British government) are too, I'm afraid.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:34:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but since we don't have all the info yet, I would caution against drawing conclusions at this point.

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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:37:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't think beyond the horror of it. Possibly forty
people dead, killed because they happened to be going
to work. The casualties will be terrible. The
psychological harm will be massive and long lasting.
The fear and horror that will remain are uncalcuable.

To thine ownself be true. W.S. CANADA
by sybil on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:42:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately it's always innocent people that have to pay...
Just hope they are right in saying that there will be no many casualties cause it was not aim ...they think these events are designed to paralyze London and ruin moral...
by vbo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:26:17 AM EST
There's going to be tens, and probably hundreds, of dead.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:33:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reports that suicide bomber involved in one of the attacks.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:32:25 AM EST
Says they had no warnings (which dosen't agree with the MSNBC story about word from the Israelis) and that no one has claimed responsibility yet.

Charles Clarke to speak at 1250 (750 EDT).

by Scipio on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:32:38 AM EST
All those police state measures yet they couldn't prevent this.

I wonder whether, as usual, the terrorists strenghten the worst forces in Britain (and do much more damage thereby than with the bombs themselves), or if Britons will react like Spaniards and will be finally fed up with a lying government.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:32:54 AM EST
CNN timeline via Sofia News Agency:

For the Record: 7 July 2005, Thursday.

12:00 p.m.: British Prime Minister Tony Blair says the "barbaric" London blasts are terrorist attacks and were designed to coincide with the G8 summit in Scotland. He will return to London.

11:35 a.m.: London police chief said there are "indications of explosives" at one of the blast sites.

11:15 Police say there were at least six explosions in London.

11:15 European Union commissioner for justice and security affairs Franco Frattini tells reporters in Rome that the blasts in London are terrorist attacks.

11:10 Police say they have reports of two deaths and nine injuries at Aldgate East subway station.

11:07 All bus services have been suspended in London, news agencies report.

10.57 British Prime Minister Tony Blair will stay at the G8 summit in Scotland but says he will speak at midday.

10:47 Home Secretary Charles Clarke says multiple London blasts cause "terrible injuries."

10:46 Police report serious casualties in London explosions, but no deaths confirmed.

10:46 Witness to Britain's Sky News says second blast heard in Russell Square.

10:45 Police sources say a bomb is suspected in London bus explosion.

10:33 Police confirm at least three explosions on buses in central London.

10:25 Police confirm explosion on bus in central London in the area around Russell Square.

10:24 Scotland Yard says "multiple explosions" rock London.

10:14 News agencies report a bus has exploded in central London.

10:02 Scotland Yard says it is dealing with a "major incident."

09:53 Metronet says the entire London subway network has been shut down.

Police says incidents are reported at the Aldgate station near the Liverpool Street railway terminal, Edgware Road and King's Cross in north London, Old Street in the financial district and Russell Square in central London, near the British Museum.

09:41 London Underground reports a second explosion at a subway station in northwest London.

09:33 Witnesses say London Underground says services are suspended after "power surge."

09:27 Metronet, the subway maintenance company, says power surge has caused explosion in London tube station.

09:25 Police say "there are walking wounded" in London's financial district.

09:15 British Transport Police say a explosion is reported in London's financial district in the area near Liverpool railway station.



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by Man Eegee (man.eegee :at: gmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:46:00 AM EST
To anyone not in the UK, you can follow this on BBC's radio and video coverage via their website (front page).

It looks like the Aldsgate bus explosion was a suicide bomber.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:52:39 AM EST
French have put their own terror level from orange to red.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:53:46 AM EST
Home Secretary is speaking to parliament... says 4 tube explosions and 2 bus explosions.

Looks like the Kings Cross and Aldgate were the two bad ones.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:56:20 AM EST
Live report now: bus drivers reporting 7 dead they know of - city eerily silent - people don't know what to say - reports of blown up trains with bodies on them - unconfirmed reports from police and railworkers unions - reports that bombs were on the tracks - definite explosive traces on buses - London has shut down.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:57:49 AM EST
I've seen from two sources that someone was shot by soldiers at Canary Wharf...

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:57:57 AM EST
I've seen that too. No confirmation from anywhere though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 07:58:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm also seeing reports of something in Poland? You seeing anything in the local media?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:06:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
W związku z alarmami bombowymi w Budapeszcie ewakuowano dwa centra handlowe.

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian
by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:23:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is what Hungarian media is reporting:

Bombatámadással fenyegetett meg ismeretlen telefonáló csütörtök délelőtt három fővárosi bevásárlóközpontot - tájékoztatta az [origo]-t a Budapesti Rendőr-főkapitányság (BRFK) kommunikációs osztálya. A megfenyegetett áruházak a II. kerületi Mammut, a X. kerületi Árkád és VI. kerületi Westend. A BRFK tájékoztatása szerint délután fél háromkor kezdődik meg az épületek kiürítése. Mivel a telefonáló a közveszéllyel fenyegetés vétségét követte el, eljárás indult ellene. Eközben Bene László országos rendőrfőkapitány fokozott rendőri ellenőrzést rendelt el egyes budapesti bevásárlóközpontokban és a főváros nagyforgalmú közterületein - közölte csütörtökön az ORFK.

Az MNO megkeresésére a Budapesti Rendőr-főkapitányság Kommunikációs Osztályán a fenyegetés tényét megerősítették, de további felvilágosítást nem adtak. Az egyik üzletközpontból származó értesüléseink szerint az üzletek személyzetét már értesítették, hogy fél kettőkor el kell hagyniuk az épületet.

Ma 14.30 órakor Gyurcsány Ferenc miniszterelnök, Lamperth Mónika belügyminiszter és Bene László országos rendőrfőkapitány sajtótájékoztatót tart a brit fővárosban bekövetkezett robbanássorozatra reagálva - értesültünk.

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:31:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's definitely something going on in Hungary... I can't read Hungarian but the media outlets are all overwhelmed and Polish media is referring to something going on.

Looks like central Budapest :(

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:39:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's telephoned bomb warnings for three malls. It is almost certainly a prank.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:28:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I just checked the news; the malls are set to reopen at 5 pm, and the police chief announced that the case was opened against the anonymous caller.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:29:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great. Thanks, very much.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:37:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm seeing it blogged at Europhobia as caused by a careless worker.  Also a shopping center evacuated in Budapest.  No more info at this time.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"
by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Smoke has been detected at one of the wings of the Prime Minister's Office in Warsaw at 1:30 pm local time (11:30 UTC). Several fire brigades have been called onto the scene. Officially, the cause of the fire has been attributed to modernisation works conducted at the premises and has NOT been linked to any form of terrorist activity.
Meanwhile, the Polish parliament has interrupted its session with a minute of silence for the victims of the terrorist attack in London.
Polskie Radio Online .
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:50:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm seeing that the Polish fire was a result of a careless worker not terrorism or attack of any kind.

Not confirmed though.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:57:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reports of double-digit fatalities from one of the stations.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:00:19 AM EST
Truly awful.

How long must we, the people, pay for the short-sightedness of our elected officials?

My heart goes out to the people of London, a city I absolutely adore.

Oh, and I think Blair might finally be done, though the British public could end up being more forgiving than I'm predicting.

"I must create a system or be enslaved my another man's." -- William Blake

by urizon (braincramp39@hotmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:03:18 AM EST
Blair is giving a second statement from Gleneagles... nothing new, just saying all the G8 countries condone the attacks.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:08:14 AM EST

Bus that exploded at Russel Square

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:11:21 AM EST
That bus must have been packed.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:15:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's starting to look like the tube explosions happened first and then as people were moved to the buses, at least the explosion above happened.

The photo above is the same one explosion referred to as "Taverstock Square".

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:20:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...it wasn't. Eyewitnesses said it was a tourist bus, but it sure dosen't look like it (the ones converted to tourist purposes are generally older).

Apparently only one death associated with that incident so far.

by Scipio on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:21:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm seeing that too now. Maybe lucky on that one.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:23:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bad news as BBC 5 radio is saying a doctor who was on the scene says 10 fatalities... still unconfirmed though.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:29:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not sure if it was the same bus, but BBC World just said it was no 30 from Hackney to Marble Arch, exploded about 9.45am so fortunately after the rush hour.  
by canberra boy (canberraboy1 at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:25:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Personal reports of silence in London, people waiting for the other shoe to drop, heavy armed presence about House of Commons.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:29:15 AM EST
Wonder where Jérôme is today. I know he's travelling.

Bush on radio now. Little dickhead is talking "about the hearts of people who care about human rights and human liberty". "The war on terror go on ... I was impressed by the leaders .. their resolve as strong as my resolve ... we will not yield ...

Sounds like he couldn't give a shit.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:33:46 AM EST
Notice "me" and "we"... it's all about me, me, me, isn't it Georgie.

Well, step aside and let another American say what you can't.

Dear people of Great Britain, our hearts and prayers go out to the victims, you, and your loved ones in this terrible hour.  We will be there for you as you were for us, God bless you all.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:46:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jérôme is not in London, he's in Amsterdam (I've checked), and I'm sure he appreciates your concern.

I'm not eloquent in such circumstances but I wish express my sorrow and friendship to those in the wonderful city of London.

by Guillaume on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:21:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's an impressive amount of overall information at Wikipedia.

Though not, as far as I can see, on either Poland or Hungary.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:52:08 AM EST
From that Wikipedia link:

British Prime Minister Tony Blair has described the attacks as "barbaric". "Our determination to defend our values and our way of life is greater than their determination to cause death and destruction to innocent people in a desire to impose extremism upon the world", he said.

Sorry to say so mr Blair but, your words are beginnig to sound really hollow. You are fighting together with a man that justifies making war on Iraq and Afghanistan simply by saying betterto fight them there than in his homeland. In doing so he's (and you are) causing death and destruction to innocent people. Yes, I know you're claiming to fight terrorists and maybe you are. But what right have you to select an arena full of innocent people, enticing the terrorists to come there and fight you, very well knowing innocent people will be caught in the middle while you're fighting it out?

Is there any difference in you going there using those countries' civilians as props and the terrorists taking the fight to your country and using your civilians as props?

Sorry again to be so blunt, but the indiscriminant killings and lying coming at the hands of your goverment and that of the USA and the lack of concern you're showing about those things, I really can't see that the concerns you're trying to show now are anything but empty words. You sound mightily hollow.

by high5 on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:25:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I commented on Hungary above.

To repeat, an anonymous caller warned of bombs in three malls. The malls were emptied, and are set to reopen at 1700 CET. This was most likely a prank, there are many such pranks here in Budapest (most often at schools before exams :-)...). The police started a criminal investigation after the caller.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:34:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My thoughts are with every one in London right now. Thank you colman for keeping this updated, I am finding this the best tool to keep up on new developments.  Again, this is so disheartening.  

What I am saying here is based on what I have heard on public radio in Chicago.  There may be additional information I do not know about.  It is being reported that the Secret Group of Al Qaeda in London claims responsibility. The rhetoric and way in which the attack took place seems to point to them as well.  Although, it has been reported that the bombs were not suicide bombs, but time bombs.  One thing to note however, is that Al Qaeda exists in independent cells.  I believe every city needs to step up their security as these other cells learn of the attacks.

by friday on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:57:21 AM EST
This is off a website and is not confirmed of course:

Jamaat al-Tandheem Al-Sierri (secret organization group)
Organization of Qaeda't al-Jihad in Europe

In the name of God the most merciful...

Rejoice the nation of Islam, rejoice nation of Arabs, the time of revenge has come for the crusaders' Zionist British government.

As retaliation for the massacres which the British commit in Iraq and Afghanistan, the mujahideen have successfully done it this time in London.

And this is Britain now burning from fear and panic from the north to the south, from the east to the west.

We have warned the brutish governments and British nation many times.

And here we are, we have done what we have promised. We have done a military operation after heavy work and planning, which the mujahideen have done, and it has taken a long time to ensure the success of this operation.

And we still warn the government of Denmark and Italy, all the crusader governments, that they will have the same punishment if they do not pull their forces out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

So beware.

Thursday 7/7/2005
Jamaat al-Tandheem Al-Sierri (secret organization group)
Organization of al Qaeda't al-Jihad in Europe.

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:59:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I posted the same thing 14 seconds after you.  As for credibility, look what the source says in mine, he gave an AQ website and had his staff in Bagdad translate it.  Of course this isn't confirmed yet, but I am tending to believe it.

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"
by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:24:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cut & pasted from blogger at Europhobia:

From Back to Iraq:

Today's blasts in London have been claimed by Al Qaeda's European chapter, Qaeda't al-Jihad in Europe. A statement has been posted on a site often used by Qaeda agents, www.qal3ata.com. The statement follows (translated by one of my staff here in Baghdad):

Jamaat al-Tandheem Al-Sierri (secret organization group)
Organization of Qaeda't al-Jihad in Europe

In the name of God the most merciful...

Rejoice the nation of Islam, rejoice nation of Arabs, the time of revenge has come for the crusaders' Zionist British government.

As retaliation for the massacres which the British commit in Iraq and Afghanistan, the mujahideen have successfully done it this time in London.

And this is Britain now burning from fear and panic from the north to the south, from the east to the west.

We have warned the brutish governments and British nation many times.

And here we are, we have done what we have promised. We have done a military operation after heavy work and planning, which the mujahideen have done, and it has taken a long time to ensure the success of this operation.

And we still warn the government of Denmark and Italy, all the crusader governments, that they will have the same punishment if they do not pull their forces out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

So beware.

Thursday 7/7/2005
Jamaat al-Tandheem Al-Sierri (secret organization group)
Organization of al Qaeda't al-Jihad in Europe.      

"Schiller sprach zu Goethe, Steck in dem Arsch die Flöte! Goethe sagte zu Schiller, Mein Arsch ist kein Triller!"

by Jeffersonian Democrat (rzg6f@virginia.edu) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 08:59:28 AM EST
Well the good news is it looks like whatever happened is now over... of course the rest of the day people will still be trying to get home and everyone will try to piece together what happened but thank goodness it looks like it's "over" for now.

Amazingly there seems to be very few dead thank goodness, although hundreds are injured (120 treated and released from hospitals so far).

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:14:37 AM EST

One more disgusting attentate, one more crime to heap on the shoulders of "islamists". How ? Well, it has the "all  the hallmarks" of what "islamist terrorists" do. Here in Austria the govt broadcast is trotting out some old geezer named Tropphof who swears it was "Al-Qaeda". I have long made up my mind that whenever they trot out "specialists" who point their finger at "Al-Qaeda" or "Zarqawi" one can be sure whatever happened was done by the secret services of western nations. The almost instant adjudication of this digrace to "muslim groups" is telling.

It is also very interesting how this kind of thing happens when the warmongers need to "justify" whatever they do before the public. Tony Blair is not really popular, not to speak of the G8 meeting in Scotland and the controversy of their privatized "debt reduction" for 18 countries in Africa.

9/11 has so many question marks that politicians everywhere prefer to not even mention it anymore because ugly questions could arise.

Madrid 3/11 turned out to have been perpetrated with American explosives "donated" by a police informant.

London 7/7 will probably turn out to have been perpetrated with explosives "Made in US" or "Made in UK". No arrests will be made, and if, nothing in the way of credible evidence will turn up against whatever poor suckers they decide to put thru the court system.

I fear that we'll soon see mass arrests and expulsions of muslims throughout the UK and Europe. In any case, bad times will descend upon them as the crusade must go on. Radio says that muslims in the UK have fetched their kids in fear of reprisals. What will happen next ? Will we eventually see muslims cleaning sidewalks with toothbrushes ? Will beating up muslims in the streets just for the hell of it become tolerated ? Will Soviet-style "internal passports" be introduced in Europe ? Will checkpoints appear throughout our cities and countries ? Just remember that whatever happens to Muslims will soon after also happen the the rest of us.

I am with the people of London who have to go thru this. I was there in 2002 and remember a beautiful city and lots of very friendly people. I hope you all are able to take it in stride.

by name (name@spammez_moi_sivouplait.org) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:23:45 AM EST
This is absolute fucking crap from beginning to end.

If you have to spout ridiculous tinfoil lunacy like that, at least have the courtesy to save it for another day.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:32:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
S/he is right to point out that it is really too early to tell that it was al-Qaida (remember Oklahoma?...), but then this chap goes over to make his own baseless accusations...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:37:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ohhh I can't say why but I feel very similar...
by vbo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:32:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Uh-oh... just one point (there is no point in arguing with paranoiacs anyway): the 3/11 explosives were stolen from a mine.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:39:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder how people can maintain these 9/11 conspiracy theories even after the Iraq war.

I mean, where was their attack on radio station Gliewitz?  Or, indeed, where are the WMD? If someone is willing to organise a terror attack on their own country or allied countries for political reasons (and I wonder what that would have been in the case of Madrid...), why not fake Iraqi WMD?

If one looks at what they did, it is bloody obvious: their weapon of choice to influence the public is spin, spin, massive spin. (Which kind of underlines their disconnect from reality.)

The US and British leaders are so much into spin that even the big fakes they used - the bioweapons trailer story, the Niger yellowcake story, the 45 minutes story and such - they only got passed on by someone else (Chalabi's men, or the Italian secret service), rather than fabricate stuff themselves. And during the war, the most the psy-ops troops could do in terms of active propaganda was an improvised Saddam statue pulling and the Jessica Lynch 'rescue' - which were neither terribly complicated undertakings, nor particularly professional (both were exposed real fast).

And, if one looks at some US polls on Gitmo, prospects for Iraq, or Iraqi WMD, one has to admit that this PR weapon works well enough for them.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 11:53:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is horrific to think that retaliation will occur against citizens of any racial/ethnic group in response for an attack.  That point of yours, is true.

Otherwise, this attack has all of the hallmarks (your word) of a certain islamist terrorist group.  Another group that will be looked at is the IRA, but the IRA has not attacked in over a decade.  Additionally, they have a tradition of attacking on Friday evenings, or Saturday mornings, so as to limit casualties.  They also normally provide a coded warning to citizens.  The rush hour bombings of mass transit is most definitely becoming the hallmark of al qaeda.  This is most likely their goal.  They strive for adjudication.  

by friday on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:42:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok. Some here have titled me a kook, but, in all fairness: who gains anything from murdering common english folks ?

  • Muslims or those who need a justification to attack them ? Would any putative "Al-Qaeda" or Iraqi resistence sound of mind attack common british folks, knowing that a significant majority were, and are, against the war of terror ? Would it not serve their interests better if they tried to do something against those in a position of power and who subscribe to the "GWOT" ?

  • In the position of phony Tony and dumb Dubya who see their project desintegrate for lack of popular support, would it not be tempting to have the plebeyans rally around your cause ?

  • In the position of "Islamists" who see their countries re-colonized by the West, would it not be f*cking stupid to give not only the english and other western plebeyans and also the G8 fags a reason to send even more troops to your countries and make the life of whatever muslims in the west miserable ?

  • Who has the RESOURCES and the CAPABILITY to plant multiple bombs in London, one of the most surveilled cities in the world ? Some putative "islamists" or secret service and special forces operatives of western govts ?

  • How many people were arrested AND sent to jail for their participation in 9/11 ?

  • How many people were arrested AND sent to jail for the Madrid attentate ? It strikes me as "convenient" that the putative terrorists were all killed by the Sspanish Guardia Civil when they found them.

  • Was it not weird that the Spanish Govt first adjudicated that attentate to ETA and then to Al-Qaeda, based obviously on their calculation of what would be better for their purposes ?

  • Some franchise partners of "Al-Qaeda" have supposedly published a note taking responsibility for todays bombings in London at a "known islamist website". How do they do this ? Fact is that there is no anonymity on the Internet, that anything can be traced back to either a physical place or a person or organisation.

  • Why would ANY server owner risk jail or worse for publishing the rants of some terrorist group ? I know quite a few websites around Iraq, Palestine and Chechnya, but i've never seen any website claiming affiliation with "Al-Qaeda" (a disclaimer here: I don't know Arabic).

  • Also: which "known Islamist website" and its owner(s) would be left standing by any govt, knowing what befell Indymedia and some smaller lefty websites for far less than publishing terrorist manifestos ?

  • Why do the MSM always seem to know these misterious websites but never tell their name ? Has anybody outside the MSM and govt circles EVER managed to find the original websites where these manifests are published ? Please post here if you know one.

In this spirit, what will come out about the London bombings during the next few days from private investigators not affiliated with the British Govt or mainstream media ? Since Sirocco and some others are accusing me of paranoia and kookery, I'd like to invite you all to try and answer some of these questions without coming to some of the same disquieting conclusions I've arrived at.

The Romans of old, who knew something about politics, used to say "Cui prodest scelus, is fecit".

by name (name@spammez_moi_sivouplait.org) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 12:13:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Would any putative "Al-Qaeda" or Iraqi resistence sound of mind attack common british folks, knowing that a significant majority were, and are, against the war of terror ? Would it not serve their interests better if they tried to do something against those in a position of power and who subscribe to the "GWOT"?

First of all, those in a position of power are genuinely hard to get at. Second, even if you, say, successfully assassiated Bush, that wouldn't necessarily alter policy. All you would get is President Cheney with a licence to kill.

As to why the revolutionary movement we call al-Qaeda would conduct terrorism against Western civilians: Well, that isn't very hard to explain. The long-term objective of this movement is to overthrow the regimes of the Middle East and North Africa and create a vast political unit modeled on the early Islamic caliphate. To achieve this they must accomplish two preliminary goals:

  1. Make Western countries, especially but not only the US, terminate their military presence in, arm sales and technological assistance to, bankrolling of, and in some cases, mere tolerance of, said regimes. This has been accomplished to a fair degree. The US is pulling its troops out of Saudi Arabia, has eliminated Saddam Hussein's secular regime, and has introduced sanctions against Syria. (Though OTOH, Egypt remains prime beneficiary of US 'aid' after Israel.)

  2. Make Western countries, especially but not only the US, lash out against the Muslim heartland in a way that i) fosters hate among Muslims against the West and its perceived ME puppets; and (ii) destabilises the region, seeding chaos which the revolutionaries can exploit to create failed states and seize power there. This has so far succeeded beyond any reasonable expectation, thanks to the mix of strategic ineptness and greed marking US policymakers and their European lackeys.

Who has the RESOURCES and the CAPABILITY to plant multiple bombs in London, one of the most surveilled cities in the world ? Some putative "islamists" or secret service and special forces operatives of western govts ?

Answer: Well-organized terrorists and noone else have such resources and capability. 'Secret service and special forces operatives of western govts' plainly do not, simply because a) these agencies are largely staffed by professionals dedicated to public service, as opposed to evil, soulless tools who would willingly carry out orders to massacre their fellow citizens for the transient political gain of their civilian bosses; b) even if they weren't, it would be impossible to keep such a devilish conspiracy secret even in one country, let alone in three.

By the way, why expressions like "putative 'al-Qaeda'" and "putatuve 'Islamists'"? Do you doubt, or deny, that these phenomena exist?

How many people were arrested AND sent to jail for the Madrid attentate ? It strikes me as "convenient" that the putative terrorists were all killed by the Sspanish Guardia Civil when they found them.

That they wouldn't allow themselves to be taken alive is to be expected from people who crave 'martyrdom' over any earthly reward, not to mention life in jail.

Was it not weird that the Spanish Govt first adjudicated that attentate to ETA and then to Al-Qaeda, based obviously on their calculation of what would be better for their purposes ?

Not particularly. Just disgusting.

OK, that's all I have time for right now. Maybe someone else can reply to your concerns about the Internet.

And yes, I am indeed accusing you of paranoia and kookery. You're right about that much.

By the way, I'm sure the gays among us would appreciate if you laid off such slurs as 'fags,' as in "G8 fags." But that is up to you.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 01:21:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a) these agencies are largely staffed by professionals dedicated to public service, as opposed to evil, soulless tools who would willingly carry out orders to massacre their fellow citizens for the transient political gain of their civilian bosses;

Now I fully agree with the rest, but I think the above is rather naive. Those not dedicated to public service seem to dominate nowadays anyway, "evil, soulless tool" seems to be a perfect definition for intelligence agents participating in dirty wars to me, and history does have plenty of examples for willingly carrying out orders to massacre fellow citizens for the transient political gain of their civilian bosses. (For example, read up on SISMI, Gladio, and the Bologna railway station bombing.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 01:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it seems to me deeply implausible that a majority of CIA or Delta officers, say, would take part in mass terrorism against innocent civilian compatriots such as on 9/11. For most of them it is squarely opposed to their training and basic ethos. I am prepared to assume that a tiny minority might agree to do so if exceedingly well compensated (which obviously rules out suicide missions, a decisive point in itself); but this minority would be seriously hard to identify among the vast majority of their colleagues, who would in any case oppose them to the best of their capability.

If you disagree with this, then I guess we differ as to what is a realistic assessment of the situation.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 02:07:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps Jeffersonian Democrat would care to chip in about this? Given his background I'd give great weight to his evaluation, on whichever side it comes down.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 02:12:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I refer back to SISMI and Gladio. I think the same nice words could be said of the majority of Italian intelligence agents, yet the really bad found each other - or some who were at top positions picked out the right ones.

The rest can hardly oppose them if they act clandestinely. I don't see how suicide missions come into the picture - the conspiracy theorists don't claim Atta & co were CIA agents.

Then again, I emphasize again, I don't believe for a moment that 9/11 specifically was an inside job. I am confronting your general argument here about intelligence.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 03:03:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Supplement: upon re-reading, perhaps I should make clear,  this line of mine:

Those not dedicated to public service seem to dominate nowadays anyway, "evil, soulless tool" seems to be a perfect definition for intelligence agents participating in dirty wars to me, and history does have plenty of examples for willingly carrying out orders to massacre fellow citizens

..is three separate counter-claims, regarding three non-indentical small minority subsets of intelligence agents. The first is the largest, it includes those in the MI6 going along with sexing up dossiers in the hierarchy. The second are obviously intel foot-soldiers working mostly abroad.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 03:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, at least we agree that only a tiny minority in the secret services/special forces would contemplate taking part in such domestic black ops.

My claim was just that "these agencies are largely staffed by professionals dedicated to public service," by which I meant to imply that given the massive scale of an operation such as 9/11, it would be hard to recruit enough traitors to pull it off.

About the Bologna station bombing I don't know much, so if it has been proven that SIGNI - as opposed to a few fascists in the stay-behind network GLADO - were part of this, I was unaware of that.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 03:54:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As for the first bunch of questions: for Sunni Islamist extremists, Western culture and mixing with Western culture is an explicitely declared danger to Islam. Hence, a reaction hitting Muslims in Britain is a result beneficial for their intent to cut off. (Plus, it is further propaganda boon.) They won't value an anti-war population for much until the war continues - and they could either think that they can impress this population with a terror attack to force withdrawal (if they misinterpret events in Madrid like Americans did) or hold it complicit [one of Bin Laden's early speeches at least was explicit about this] and 'punish' it. Overall, I note: that the Binladenists exploit genuine grievances of Muslims in recruiting, and those even make part of their motivations, doesn't mean that ending the unjustice of occupaton by the West is their ultimate goal.

As for the second, yep, but what does that prove? See also what I wrote in another comment regarding their Iraq war propaganda.

As for the third, in part see what I wrote for the first; and given that the USA & allies are at this point clearly defeated in Iraq & Afghanistan, sending more troops would hasten the process.

The fourth is strongly tin-foil hat. I only respond with two general points: one, the total surveillance police state is not meant to protect you. Two, I think to believe that to defeat anything Western is an exceptional feat is a form of indirect and unconscious chauvinism. We aren't that superior, not at all.

As for the 9/11 jailed, I believe three, or if we include those held in the US gulag system, half a dozen. The rest died in the attacks.

The next is hyper-tin-foil-hat and simply wrong. The firefight wasn't started by the Guardia Civil, nor was the bomb set off by them. And anayway, Aznar was out by that time, so you have a really really big conspiracy in your theory here.

As for ETA than al-Qaida, that was not at all weird, but typical of the lying bastard Aznar, who even wanted election advantage from a terror attack. But he lost when exposed. Now, the only thing I don't understand how this fits into your conspiracy theory.

As for anything traced back, no, it can't. If you sit down in a run-down internet bar somewhere in Karachi, you can very well post anonymously, and a few tricks are enough to significantly delay the time until even the internet bar is tracked down.

As for the next, indeed, you don't know Arabic.

As for the next: they are not in the West, and sites can be changed frequently if they are closed down.

As for the last, since I don't know Arabic either, your request is impossible to fulfill. I guess you should ask around some blogs by Arabic-speakers. (And don't expect the MSM to allow itself be accused of giving bandwidth to extremists by linking to such a site.)

You should know, even with the general argument I made with Iraq in that other comment, I'm not one dismissing conspiracy theories out of hand. Specifically about 9/11, I have checked many of the claims circling around (in the first few months still with the suspicion that they might be real clues). But most turned out to ignore something, quote out of context, or be the result of lack of technical knowledge. (The two latest for me were the Kevin Ryan email casting doubt on the temperature of WTC fires, and the allegedly too small engine wreckage found in the Pentagon - I post the details of what I found if you're interested.) Some of the rest expose misconduct, but one far short for the alleged conspiracy (for example the delays in engine scrambling, or the alleged hijackers found alive stories).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 01:22:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC World now says one bus explosion in Woburn Place and six on Underground.  Two people killed and up to 150 injured.  This was very very lucky: could have been a lot more fatalities...
by canberra boy (canberraboy1 at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:37:01 AM EST
Wait until firefighters can access the epicenter of the tube explosions. I recall Madrid numbers climbed up slowly too, and those were in the open.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:41:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And I mean name...of course.
Sorry Sirocco...

This from another site ( I couldn't say this better):

The success of these attacks can only be viewed as yet another blow to American and British credibility. Further they represent a collossal intelligence failure, for both America and Britian. It really is irrelevant who is responsible, or who knew about it before hand, what matters is that some one was able to make the leaders of the "War on Terror" look powerless.

The responsibility for this reprehensible event ultimately will rest with the Blair government for permitting this to occur. Team Bush also bears responsibility as they failed to protect our closest ally Britain. Look for Bush to cravenly try to both shirk responsibility for this failure "Bad things happen", and to use it as an excuse to drive forward whatever pet policies his handlers feel are most urgent, "If only the liberal traitors in America had not helped the insurgents by blocking ".

That this event occured at all puts the lie to the American-British "War on Terror" being about stopping terrorism. Terrorism is the consequence of attempting to run an empire, much as piracy is the consequence of attempting to run monopoly. No matter what is said or done by our current leaders, the net effect of their words and deads will be to convey to the world that this morning's events are the acceptable cost of doing business.

Posted by: patience | July 7, 2005 09:10 AM | #

by vbo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:38:11 AM EST
by friday on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:45:45 AM EST
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Excellent NEWS link for latest info - all the details.

An Arab specialist in The Netherlands, executive manager for RNW Radio Neth. World gave same assessment on European Al Qaeda affiliate as credible.

The rhetoric is identical, indicated the reward came after overcoming many hardships to hit at the heart of "Zionists and Crusaders" in Great Britain as had been promised. A day to rejoice. Indeed named two countries Denmark and Italy, where similar attacks will take place.

No mention of martyrs, what would be the case of suicide attacks. The level of sophistication is high, that indicates the presence of a large group involved in the logistics. Similar to Madrid bombings, this would be a group of 20-50 terrorists.

The Netherlands has gone into state of high alert in coordination with all EU countries. All border crossings and public transportation will be under extra security and scrutiny. These attacks are unavoidable, London was a likely location, not only because of involvement in Middle-east, but because of decades of Islamist support groups and large number of Muslims within the UK.

USA WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooMan Tribune and add some cheers!

by Oui on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 10:20:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC World just said it now appears there was one bus bomb and three explosions on tube.  One explosion occurred between Liverpool St & Aldgate stations and had previously seemed like two separate events.  fatalities = several at Edgeware Rd and 2 at Tavistock Place / Woburn Place.  150 casualties in hospital.  The run down on those in various hospitals suggests that a number are seriously injured: more may die.
by canberra boy (canberraboy1 at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 10:02:54 AM EST
They're awfully quiet about King's Cross.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 10:09:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Police and emergency services briefing now live on BBC World & CNN Int'l: tube bombs killed 7, 21, 5 respectively (you were right about King's Cross, Colman) and fatalities from bus bomb not certain (sounds ugly ie a lot of small pieces).
by canberra boy (canberraboy1 at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 10:28:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a very sad set of events.  I'm afraid that I've started to think though about the old journalist's formula that the news value of one death in my street is worth ten in my city is worth 100 in my country is worth 10,000 deaths in the third world.  can't help thinking that we didn't get live updates from emergency services regarding number of casualties when US attacked Fallujah a few months back.  But they were only Iraqis dying....
by canberra boy (canberraboy1 at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 10:55:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have a point. In fact, this would be a pretty normal day in Baghdad.

Which speaks volumes of how things are there.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 11:04:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, exactly right.  Bed time for bonzo here in Canberra... it's 1.00 am - good night!
by canberra boy (canberraboy1 at gmail dot com) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 11:08:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
canberraboy and friends

glad someone else said it.  as a UK expat and one who has spent some happy hours in London the destruction grieves me -- not only the destruction of life and limb,  but the destruction of the freedom of the city, more fodder for the lockdown state, the imminent end of the wonderful times I knew there 30 years ago.

it did occur to me as I read this thread and other news coverage... 37, 40, maybe 50 dead, 700 wounded, maybe more losses if some of the wounded don't make it... and I think about the half-million Iraqi children, and the daily death toll... 16, 20, 40 dead every day, day in, day out, and no one even counts the wounded.  and Afghanistan littered with cute yellow cluster bombs and all the rest...

and awful though this feels to me on sentimental grounds, to see a city I love being harassed and vandalised and people murdered in numbers, civic order being shattered, ordinary people being victimised at random... I had that same thought:  we've been doing exactly this to Iraq for, what, 20 years now?  random killings, pointless violence?  continuous bombing sorties, invasion, sanctions, more sorties, another invasion, towns flattened, thousands killed.  London at least still has electricity, running water, a fairly trustworthy police force, hospitals with real equipment and well-trained doctors who aren't being kidnapped and murdered daily, working sanitation, working telephones...  somehow my feelings of shock and dismay and horror and all the rest this morning only amplify and render more painful my personal sense of shame about what "we" have done to Iraq, as if a voice at my shoulder says, "If you feel this kind of distress and anger about this -- proportionately -- small incident, imagine what an Iraqi is feeling after two years of far worse."  it is like the old saying about weeping that I had no shoes, and then I saw a man with no feet... I feel no less upset about London, just more upset about everything.

and hearing Blair and Bush immediately start trying to use it to sell their pig-headed profiteering WoT plus glorify the G8 summit as an heroic endeavour of the Truly Civilised under attack by the barbarian hordes...  well it is making me feel ill.  oh gawd.  where to turn... and we are here as on a darkling plain / full of confused alarms of hurry and flight / where ignorant armies clash by night...

only grief.  for all of us.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 04:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am hearing Tony Blair saying
" those responsible for this have not respected for human lives..." Like he has...oh sorry you are right they are not human they are just Iraqis...
Hypocrisy your name is Tony Blair...
Seems like they had their speeches ready...I am sick of everything and am in grief for all of them who are not going to come home tonight to their grieving families...in London and in Iraq...and Afghanistan...and...
by vbo on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 11:17:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
London, I send you my prayers and love today all the way from Atlanta, GA, USA.  
by caldonia on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 11:08:04 AM EST
I send my condolences to you Londoners.  I am so sorry that you have had to go through an attack.  I believe your response has been exemplary.  I only hope that US government officials are paying attention.

Was anyone else struck by the competence of the British police, transit head, etc.?  They were careful not to be drawn into speculation and stuck to the facts, they were sober and knowledgeable.

I was also struck by the care with which the man I believe was the head of the police answered a reporter's question about "Islamic terrorism" by dissociating Islam from the unIslamic practice of terrorism.  The Bushies would be doing the opposite in order to curry favor with the base and to pump up the war on an abstract noun (terror).  The Brits are treating this as a crime, which is how 9/11 should have been handled.

I doubt if even after all this time the US is even close to approaching this kind of coordinated response.  It is all too likely that we will be getting our information on safety and evacuation from the suppositions of news anchors trying to piece together a story while the WH determines the most attractive political angle to use.

(part of this cross-posted on DailyKos.com)

by Plan9 on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 02:20:59 PM EST
Striking at "the heart of Europe"

rhetoric at the G8 has suddenly turned London into "the heart of Europe" -- though I thought just days ago the UK was more or less the Awkward Squad when it came to the EU project...  oh well, never expect funeral orations to make much sense I guess.


The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu Jul 7th, 2005 at 09:23:03 PM EST


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