European Tribune

Catholicism and Evolution

by DarkSyde
Sat Jul 9th, 2005 at 06:07:59 PM EST

Recently an op-ed appeared in the New York Times by Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna. This piece has been picked up by segments of the extremist fundamentalist right both here in America and abroad to intimidate and castigate Catholics into rejecting common descent, evolutionary biology, and in some cases all of modern science. But is that what the author is really proposing?

Note from NYT-Christoph Schönborn, the Roman Catholic cardinal archbishop of Vienna, was the lead editor of the official 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church.


The op-ed was written in part as a response to an article authored by John Paul II in which the late Pontiff discussed his view on evolutionary biology. In summation, JP II stated that accepting evolution and common descent is acceptable for Catholics. He did not as I've seen some over enthusiastic science buffs state that evolutionary biology and common descent was the official position of the RCC; only that there was no conflict as far as the Roman Catholic Church was concerned between being a good Catholic and accepting the cornerstone of modern biology, provided they credited God with the process and accepted that at some point God installed a soul into humans.

Let's dive right into the Cardinal's editorial:

EVER since 1996, when Pope John Paul II said that evolution (a term he did not define) was "more than just a hypothesis," defenders of neo-Darwinian dogma have often invoked the supposed acceptance - or at least acquiescence - of the Roman Catholic Church when they defend their theory as somehow compatible with Christian faith.

The term Darwinism is a dead giveaway you're dealing with someone who either doesn't know the score, or doesn't know they don't know the score. Usually it's a sign the Discovery Institute's 'stand-up' philosopher division had a hand or influence in the writing. And it's a rather pointless argument, not part of the scientific assembly as it does not rest on empirical evidence and testable inference. It's an entertaining topic if you enjoy metaphysics and philosophy and is thus the subject of many a layman's essay and speculation.

But this is not true. The Catholic Church, while leaving to science many details about the history of life on earth, proclaims that by the light of reason the human intellect can readily and clearly discern purpose and design in the natural world, including the world of living things.


This may, with the emphasis on 'may', be the first example of misinformation.  JP II embraced a view called Theistic Evolution which adheres to the idea that natural processes were created by God and either front loaded or tweaked by that Supreme Being so as to unfold towards His desired predetermined end. The Pope did not sign off on Atheism ... Good grief would anyone expect him to?

Schönborn refers to both Theistic Evolution and Intelligent Design as if they're one and the same. Technically, Theistic Evolution is a form of Intelligent Design Creationism as it presupposes a Creator entity which produced and/or managed the series of events in our universe from the beginning to the present. Intelligent Design, the movement, includes Young Earth Creationism, Islamic Creationism, Hindu Creationism, Old Earth Creationism, etc., and operates as an umbrella PR and lobbying organization for all those viewpoints.

But in terms of effect on readers, Intelligent Design or Design in general is known here in the States specifically for its rejection of evolution and common descent thus creating a possible exemplar of double speak on the part of the good Cleric from Vienna.

Evolution in the sense of common ancestry might be true, but evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense - an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection - is not. Any system of thought that denies or seeks to explain away the overwhelming evidence for design in biology is ideology, not science.

I've read a number of biology textbooks and many peer reviewed papers in evolutionary biology, I've yet to read a one of them that even mentions a guided or unguided aspect of evolution, much less argues for one over the other. This is simply nonsense, again trying to equate evolutionary biology with Atheism.

There are popular books written for the interested layperson by scientists who argue that evolution is undirected and random, just as there are popular books written by scientists who argue the converse. For the former see Climbing Mount Improbable by Richard Dawkins, for the latter I recommend Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth Miller.

He (John Paul) went on: "To all these indications of the existence of God the Creator, some oppose the power of chance or of the proper mechanisms of matter. To speak of chance for a universe which presents such a complex organization in its elements and such marvelous finality in its life would be equivalent to giving up the search for an explanation of the world as it appears to us. In fact, this would be equivalent to admitting effects without a cause. It would be to abdicate human intelligence, which would thus refuse to think and to seek a solution for its problems."

Here the writer begans to tell us what John Paul II really meant. Which was that both theistic evolution and the derivative from it, common descent, are in bounds for Catholics to accept as long as they attribute the processes to the Christian/Catholic Deity. No surprise there, but the subsequent material attempts to again link evolutionary biology with Atheism.  This theme is so pervasive throughout the entire op-ed one has to wonder if the commingling of evolutionary biology with Atheism is not wholly intentional on the part of the author.

In an unfortunate new twist on this old controversy, neo-Darwinists recently have sought to portray our new pope, Benedict XVI, as a satisfied evolutionist. They have quoted a sentence about common ancestry from a 2004 document of the International Theological Commission, pointed out that Benedict was at the time head of the commission, and concluded that the Catholic Church has no problem with the notion of "evolution" as used by mainstream biologists - that is, synonymous with neo-Darwinism.

This particular 'evolutionist' and those he knows has no idea how the New Pope feels about evolutionary biology and doesn't really care that much anyway. With the minor niggle that the last time the RCC rejected modern science it turned into a Public Relations nightmare and retarded the progress of science at the expense of the entire Western World. A PR move from which they're still recovering. I personally also harbor an empathetic concern that doing so again will have similar results: Crippling devout Catholics intellectually or alienating many of them by throwing in with the antiscience forces of the right-wing fundamentalist Christians and the antiscience forces now rampant in the Islamic Cultures of the middle east

Now at the beginning of the 21st century, faced with scientific claims like neo-Darwinism and the multiverse hypothesis in cosmology invented to avoid the overwhelming evidence for purpose and design found in modern science, the Catholic Church will again defend human reason by proclaiming that the immanent design evident in nature is real. Scientific theories that try to explain away the appearance of design as the result of "chance and necessity" are not scientific at all, but, as John Paul put it, an abdication of human intelligence.

There is no overwhelming evidence of design. The universe is consistent with both design and no Design which goes to show how little we know about this topic. If such evidence existed either way I would know about it and so would the entire scientific community. There are claims for the overwhelming evidence for design, none of which have ever been stated in a testable hypothesis and/or appeared in peer reviewed science journals and ultimately held up over time.

Using the example Schönborn himself brings up, the multiverse hypothesis was not invented to 'get around' the overwhelming evidence of design. And I can't imagine why the proponents of Cosmological Fine Tuning would accept it as an explanation which delegates Design to the scrapheap even if we could zap in and out of parallel universe with an entourage of big breasted young women like in a cheap sci-fi series. The Fine Tuners would simply shift to the same Plan B they've already employed countless times: they'd use the rarity of a universe which allows our type of life to exist within it as evidence for fine tuning just as they use the rarity of terrestrial planets or the rarity of solar system like ours! IOW its, surprise surprise, another unfalsifiable claim and that it comes from the same kind of reasoning, tradition, and arrogance that brought us the Inquisition doesn't exactly bode well in my mind. It suggests to me that some elements of the RCC appear determined at times to repeat that stunning PR blunder again at the expense of their adherents; and anyone else they can influence or control.

Folks, evolution is not an ideology and the evidence for evolution and common descent is so powerful that it wouldn't matter as far as the validity of both if it was. If one feels that any aspect of modern science conflicts with their personal faith they can either reject or ignore that field of study, or they adjust their theology. It's really that simple.

Some people choose the blinders option. And there are a whole slew of people who prey on these devout individuals who will lie, convincingly, charmingly, under the mantle of Christianity to their fellow believers. If one wishes to remain ignorant as a choice that's fine, but it's not OK to try and foist that ignorance on the entire population disguised as the scientific standard of knowledge.

Incidentally, If you want to debate those shysters you have to be prepared if you're going to take them on in both scientific material and tactical approach.

In short, this author appears to making the case that John Paul II did not advocate an unguided, unplanned, universe devoid of any God. I agree and anyone in their right mind wouldn't find that shocking. If that's all he is attempting to convey I'm fine with his missive.

Why might a Cardinal feel compelled to write an op-ed in a large newspaper explaining that the Pope did not endorse atheism under any pretext? At first glance it seems a needless argument to make; no one would argue the Pope was an atheist right?

Oh contrairi, there have been and continue to be be some small bands of fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims who vocally dislike the Pope and Catholicism, compete with the RCC for new members, and are therefore motivated to claim the Pope was an atheist or the anti-Christ or whatnot. Might they not lie and distort his evo position to advance that idea? I think some of them probably would and have been doing exactly that.

But it is written in a format using terms and arguments that those of us in the EvC debate recognize intimately; Evolution is atheism, materialism is evolution is Darwinism is atheism, evolution is an ideology which rejects God and evolutionary biologists are ideologues who are atheists and reject God, etc. This suspicion is nurtured by the fact that a number of Intelligent Design Creationism proponents have picked this op-ed up and are using it to further their own anti-science agenda along with their lucrative ventures in selling pseudoscientific books, materials, and related trinkets.

And my sneaking suspicion is shared by a number of others including real, live, evolutionary biologists who are familiar with the Discovery Institute's MO.

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A problem with saying that the universe is consistent with both Design and No Design is that any random process is consistent with both. You can always say "God wanted the coin flip to result in HTTHTHTTHHH."

The only way to demonstrate Design is to show that there is something about the evolutionary process that isn't explained by randomness. Something like "persistently too fast" evolution, for example.

by asdf on Sat Jul 9th, 2005 at 06:22:08 PM EST
My take is that in a Designed Universe of the type the IDCists advocate there would be no such thing as random, except to mean 'it appears random to us' just as hurricanes and sunspots do.
by DarkSyde (Darksydothemoon@REMOVEaol.com) on Sat Jul 9th, 2005 at 06:44:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If this is indeed the case, then it follows that they are radical determinists, if not pre-determinsists. If that is so, how can they countinue to sustain the belief in free-will?

Wht about the randomess of mutations themlsves? has this not been proven? If so, then scientists do have an ontoligcal commitment to unplanned and unguided processes, no?

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Sun Jul 10th, 2005 at 05:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
questions but no one has any answers. We see no sign of direct supernatural involvement in day to day events regardless if it's mutations or landslides. Could an omnipotent, omnisceint being be pulling the strings are motiroing what transpires? Yes. Do we have any evidence for or against that? No and it's unfalsifiable if the being can do antying but because then it can evade detection no matter what.
by DarkSyde (Darksydothemoon@REMOVEaol.com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2005 at 06:15:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to admit you're correct on the second question. There is not evidence that random mutation really is "random" in the sense of unplanned. That would require a proving a negative which is impossible: against the exitence of a contant divine intervention which is as impossible as a proof agint the intervention of Santa Claus or alien puppet masters.

On the first question thouhg, I think the law of non-contradiction prevails: determinism or free will but not both.

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 03:30:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, that fact that we have no evidence now regarding the question of randomness of mutations does not imply that the question cannot be answered. Philosphical positions which hypothesize the exitence of randomness are not unfalsible in principle. They just have not yet been falsified or verified to a high dgree of probability.

Back in the 18th centurty, it was beleived that the problem of vitalism versus materialism coud never be solved. It was once believed and actualy mathematcially predicted that man would never be able to fly an airplane. Gravity was beleived to be impossible to explain beyond Newton's mysterious action at a  distance. You beleive that the question cannot be resolved by science, I believe that most philsophcal questions can and eventually will be. This is what it really  means, BTW, to be a philospical naturalist.

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 05:08:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do you insist on talking about JPII? He's dead!!The name of the current Pope is Ratzinger. Ratzinger's beliefs on evolution are radically different from Woktyla's. He believes that it is an "interesting hypothesis" and nothing more. That's why the Catholic Church under Ratzi has encouraged the policy which will shortly take effect over here in Italy of teaching evolution AND alternative theories (intellegient design) on an equal footing in Italain elementary schools.

This Cardinal is expressing views which he discussed with Ratinger, not Wojtyla, before deciding ot publish them. These ideas represent the beginning of a backward-looking revision in the Catholic Chruch's position on evolution.

You Americand need to stop excusing, justifying anfd explaing away the radical fundmatalist nature of the Catholic Church to try to distinguish it from the Protestant fundamentalists.. You don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.  You need to live in a genuine theocray like Italy for a little while to realize the Catholic Church is infinitely more
powerful,reactionary and dangerous than any movement that exist in the US...enough with this mealy-mouthing malarkey.

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Sun Jul 10th, 2005 at 06:05:10 AM EST
Well he was responding to the JP II article and quoted it extensively throughout his own so it's relevent. I'm an atheist, long interested and active in the Evo issue, I help run an atheist Blog, and we're the central hub of the atheist Blogosphere on several fronts (When our domain is up, it's been down for days), so I have no interest in protecting fundies or Catholics whatsoever.
by DarkSyde (Darksydothemoon@REMOVEaol.com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2005 at 08:24:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Alright, alright...I confess I got a little carried away in that comment. It's a little bit of frustration of hearing the Catholic Chruch defended and excused on so many darned issues by so many Democrats and others on the "left" in the US and Italy as well that set me off. I couldnìt resist the temptatiion to vent about it.

Are you sure there's no hidden agendas in play?...no, no, I'm just kidding (;

It's a good, thoughtful analysis actually.....

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Sun Jul 10th, 2005 at 11:48:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree. It's very interesting to compare the U.S., which MAY possibly become a theocracy some time in the future, to countries where support for religion is officially embedded in the governmental system. The contrast is stark and clear, but many bloggers are so overwhelmed with fear about religion that they lose track of the difference. All of the following are strictly forbidden across the entire United States, and a suggestion of starting something along these lines would cause a cataclysmic protest:

Ireland: "Most primary and secondary schools are denominational, and their boards of management were controlled partially by the Catholic Church."

Germany: "Under Berlin's public education system, 90 percent of the cost of approved religious education, as well as provision of facilities, is publicly funded."

Italy: "The continuing presence of Catholic symbols, such as crucifixes, in courtrooms, schools, and other public buildings has drawn criticism and has led to a number of lawsuits."

France: "In Alsace and Moselle, special laws allow the local governments to provide support for the building of religious edifices."

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/c12783.htm

by asdf on Sun Jul 10th, 2005 at 10:14:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Europe the tide is generally running the opposite direction to in the US. All those things that exercise you so much whenever the influence of religion in the US is mentioned are artefacts from history, not things that are being put in place now.  Europe would never put some of these things in place now, but getting rid of them would  be work, and would draw protests and complaints: politicians can't be bothered. We'll just let them atrophy instead.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 04:37:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does Europe include Italy?

Well, I live in Italy and I can tell you that ARE being put into place right now.

Two simple examples :

1)The extradnily harsh laws agaisnt artcifical insemination and the effective banning of all stem cell research. This law goes much further than anything that is even being contemplated in the US.

2) Creationism must not be taught alongside evolution in the elementary schools according to the Berlsconi governement.

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 04:49:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whooops, typoe!!

2)Creationism must NOW be taught in the elementary schools...

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 04:52:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you put something together on this? How did this manage to get in? The harsh laws against AI don't madly surprise me, but I'm curious as to how ye managed to get creationism into the curriculum.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 07:25:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me check my facts carefully on this first.

From what I remember, the right-wing dominated Parliament
passes a law to the effect that evolution should not be taught to the exclusion of alternatives up to a cartin level in the elementary schools.

Actually, since it's a subject that piques my own curiosity as well, I will look into it and see what came out of the whole thing. The main thing I remember is controversy in the media about "evolution" endangered in the elementary schools.

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 10:54:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That'd be wonderful. Make a diary out of it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 12:34:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that all these European conservative movements take their cue from the American one. Why reinvent the wheel? They hear the rhetorical spews of a limbaugh or a rove and they get emboldened.
by Coriolanus on Tue Jul 12th, 2005 at 10:45:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, they're often direct offshoots, with links back to the US.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 12th, 2005 at 10:59:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's kind of ironic, actually. Europeans berate Americans for not correctly understanding the nuances of European culture and politics. Which is fair. But Europe doesn't understand the U.S. very well, either.

For example, Rush Lamebrain is a big fat loudmouth, and plenty of people over here listen to him with that in mind. But the U.S. has never had a situation where a guy like Le Pen or Germany's NPD got significant votes. Even racists like George Wallace, who played into internal weakness in the major parties, got minimal support on the national level. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/wallace/peopleevents/pande07.html
There's no Nazi party (or Communist party) in the U.S.; we're all centrists. (Pretty conservative "centrists," perhaps...)

It's distressing to think that anybody in Europe would take a lead from the American right wing...

by asdf on Wed Jul 13th, 2005 at 08:40:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well it appears that you simply embed them inside the main parties. There seem to be some pretty unpleasant types elected as Republicans and Democrats.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 13th, 2005 at 08:44:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No American elected politician I'm aware of advocates shipping legal immigrants "home." Is that the case in Europe?
by asdf on Wed Jul 13th, 2005 at 10:53:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't deny it. Au contraire.

I mentioned this somwhere or other (there are so many of these blogs nowadays I'm starting to forget what I posted where) but Berlusoni hiemeslf is quote explitict about it. Let's see if I can reneber the quote:

"I always agree with the Americans on evetything; even before I know what they are thinking."

One of the top jornalists over here, Guiliano Ferrara the owner of Il Foglio, is an atheist ex-Communist who beleives, like Leo Strauss and the neo-cons, that strong religious faith and rigorous family values are indispensable for the ignorant, unwashed masses.

Ratzinger and his like are often refreed to in the left wing papers as theo-cons.

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Wed Jul 13th, 2005 at 10:18:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is a good observation, there is also, as you note a good deal of guilt-by-association and strawman type obfuscation:

faced with scientific claims like neo-Darwinism and the multiverse hypothesis in cosmology invented to avoid the overwhelming evidence for purpose and design found in modern science

That is packed. Even better than the first line of this bit from Michael Behe in the NYT.  It gives the same unsupported assertion of 'evidence for design', fabricates a completely fictitious group of whacky, cult-of-personality driven "neo-Darwinists", and conflates whatever they believe with one of the most abstract, speculative hypotheses around.

I had to write them another LTE to respond to this one:

Christoph Schoenbrun is to be applauded for admitting what US neo-creationists touting "Intelligent Design" have been trying to hide; that 'design' is a religious insight.  Like Intelligent Design proponents working to undermine science education, he cannot even provide a scientific definition of design, and falls back, Potter-Stewart-like, on the claim that we know design when we see it.  This weak sophistry not only evades the responsibility of science to provide testable hypotheses, it also builds a false dichotomy between faith in an omniscient creator and the scientific understanding of the origins and development of life.  The author apparently has limited imagination and weak faith if he cannot conceive of a creator capable of building a world that pulls itself up by its bootstraps.  He seems to find natural selection distasteful, as if god were too busy to micromanage the reproduction of so many organisms, or too stupid to generate complex beings using simple mechanisms. Personally I find the remarkable elegance of this system one of the more convincing arguments for a supreme being. It seems the author treasures the "light of human reason" so much, that he is loathe to see it actually put to use.
by Cache on Sun Jul 10th, 2005 at 06:12:58 AM EST
Well,here's a quote from the old Pope that I find telling:

"Revelation teaches us that [man] was created in the image and likeness of God. ... if the human body takes its origin from pre-existent living matter, the spiritual soul is immediately created by God ... Consequently, theories of evolution which, in accordance with the philosophies inspiring them, consider the mind as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. ... With man, then, we find ourselves in the presence of an ontological difference, an ontological leap, one could say.

In order to maintain the distinction man/animal which is fundamental to Catholicism, the Pope has to posit an arbitary ontological discontinutiy which is irreconcilable with the notion of the evolutionary physical continuity of living species.

This is why they cannot [b]logically[/b]accept neo-Darwininian evolution without abandoning the fundamental docrine of the superiority of man "made in the image of god"...

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Sun Jul 10th, 2005 at 06:57:30 AM EST
I agree (as one who attended Catholic schools through college, now ex-Catholic for several years) that the "standard position" of Catholicism has been (since Vatican II, anyway) just what you quoted here - that the body could have evolved to the pre-human level, but there was a discontinuity when the soul ("image and likeness of God") was infused into man by God.  I was taught just this in high school in the 1970s.  Like you say, that makes humans (according to Catholics) qualitatively different than the rest of creation.  And this very point, and its continued erosion by science as we learn more about the self-consciousness of higher apes and other species, as well as its environmental implications, is one of the reasons I finally found Catholicism intellectually untenable.

But all of this is beside the point.  What struck me about this piece in the NY Times was the use of the language of ID, which in the US sociopolitical context is a wink and a nudge to the religious fundamentalists that "under our new management, we Catholics are with you guys against liberalism in all its pernicious forms..."

What is the use of a house if you haven't got a tolerable planet to put it on? - Thoreau

by Dem in Knoxville (green_planet_2000 (at) yahoo (dot) com) on Sun Jul 10th, 2005 at 11:22:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, your last sentence is precisely what worries me and what I was trying to get at(overstating the case somewhat perhaps) in my earlier comment about the increasingly politicized Chruch under Benedict XVI. It's extremely obvious over here in Italy: the CC has now become do involved in policits that it actively campains  for or againts certain politcal outcomes (e.g. the boycotting of the referdum on artcicla insem. and stem cell reearch) that, for all practical purposes, it can appropriatelty be considered a political party.

Oh no, excuse me, I had almost forgotten: it already had a political party which ran the country for fourty some-odd years: the Christian Democrats.

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Sun Jul 10th, 2005 at 12:00:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(Comment cross-posted from Booman Tribune)
A follow-up article which ran in the NYT on Saturday, "Leading Cardinal Redefines Church's View on Evolution", is notable for at least two reasons.

First, it indicates that while Schönborn's position is not quite the official one of the Catholic Church,

In a telephone interview from a monastery in Austria, where he was on retreat, the cardinal said that his essay had not been approved by the Vatican, but that two or three weeks before Pope Benedict XVI's election in April, he spoke with the pope, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, about the church's position on evolution. "I said I would like to have a more explicit statement about that, and he encouraged me to go on," said Cardinal Schönborn.

He said that he had been "angry" for years about writers and theologians, many Catholics, who he said had "misrepresented" the church's position as endorsing the idea of evolution as a random process.

From this, it would seem as though Schönborn's essay is being used as a means of testing the waters to gauge the reaction.  Monday's letters to the editor in response to the piece make me think that many (if not most) completely missed the import of the Ratzinger/Benedict XVI endorsement.

Second, and to me more disturbingly, the Saturday article notes that a major advocate of "intelligent design" was the original impetus in encouraging Schönborn to write the essay, and assisted in funnelling it over to the Times:

One of the strongest advocates of teaching alternatives to evolution is the Discovery Institute in Seattle, which promotes the idea, termed intelligent design, that the variety and complexity of life on earth cannot be explained except through the intervention of a designer of some sort.

Mark Ryland, a vice president of the institute, said in an interview that he had urged the cardinal to write the essay. Both Mr. Ryland and Cardinal Schönborn said that an essay in May in The Times about the compatibility of religion and evolutionary theory by Lawrence M. Krauss, a physicist at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, suggested to them that it was time to clarify the church's position on evolution.

The cardinal's essay was submitted to The Times by a Virginia public relations firm, Creative Response Concepts, which also represents the Discovery Institute.

Mr. Ryland, who said he knew the cardinal through the International Theological Institute in Gaming, Austria, where he is chancellor and Mr. Ryland is on the board, said supporters of intelligent design were "very excited" that a church leader had taken a position opposing Darwinian evolution. "It clarified that in some sense the Catholics aren't fine with it," he said.

Scientists, as well as all other rationalists, have significant reason to be worried about this.  There's no way to interpret this as anything other than as an attempt at rejection by the Church of the theory of evolution.  That the archbishop of Vienna should choose to make these statements in The New York Times is to me convincing evidence that the essay was designed principally for the benefit of "intelligent design" forces in the U.S., to be used as a political tool in our continuing education debates.

by The Maven on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 11:07:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Christoph Schönborn wrote:

"Scientific theories that try to explain away the appearance of design as the result of "chance and necessity" are not scientific at all, ..."

Cardinal Schönborn doesn't know what he is talking about.  Statistical Mechanics is the bedrock of 20th Century science.  Also, if Cardinal Schönborn could be bothered to understand before blathering, he could read the seminal work: "A New Model of Error Clustering on Telephone Circuits," by Barber & Mandelbrot, to discover "chance and necessity" is a integal part of the telephone system.  

Continuing, "...but, as John Paul put it, an abdication of human intelligence."

The abdication of human intelligence occurs when adherence to folk tales takes precedence over sustained and rigorous investigation of phenomena.  


Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 11:19:33 AM EST
Yes, I think you've nailed on the head another important point that I've been kind of dilly- dallying around in my subconscious without clearly formulating. (perhaps for fear of offending someone strangely enough)

It's the same with quantum mechacnics. If you take out chance, what the hell is left of the principle of indeterminacy. The fact that you can't exactly measure the position of an electron and its angular momentum at the same time (conjoined pairs? I beleive it's called) is, in this theory, an ontological phenomenom. It is the nature of the beast, in other words. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The siutioan is ontologically indetereminate. It's not even that god plays dice with the universe. It's that the universe, at least at the microcosmic level,  is fundemtally a  roll of the dice according to the best verified and most succesfull scientific theory that has ever existed.

by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 12:05:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Siete completamente corretti.  (Thank you Google language tools!)

If Cardinal SpongeChristoph StrangeHat would bother to learn something about Probability he would learn that 'Random' is the sina qua non of the "design" of the Universe.  Further, he would learn what 'Random' (Stochastic) actually means and how it is applied in science, engineering, finance, economics, statistics, experimental design, & etc.  Upon acquiring said knowledge he would discover his article is drivel.  But, then, being a Cardinal means never having to realize you are a moron.

I also want to note his sneaking "design" in as a premise turns his whole argument into an exercise in the logical fallacy of Circular Argument: the Universe has a design, therefore it is Designed, thus a Designer exists. Pffft!  Additionally, the concept of the Universe having "purpose" - good ol' Aristotlean Teleology - was exploded 400 years ago and consigned to the dustbin of Really Stupid Ideas.

I personally don't give a Ratzinger when third rate intellectual 'Princes of the Roman Catholic Church' attempt to engage in a discussion of 17th Century science with 300 BCE intellectual tools; if they want to make fools of themselves ... who am I to say nay?  What I do care about is the propagandizing of illiterate and ignorant yokels in the US and elsewhere who will take this and attempt to ram it down our throats.  Chris should spend his time keeping his supposedly celebrate priests from raping the altar boys, having affairs with their female and male congregates, and shut up.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Mon Jul 11th, 2005 at 11:14:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
AT, I don't mean to sound like I'm begging here, but woud you mind cross-posting these same comments over on my diary at Booman. The discussion has turned into a ridiculous contest of sniping at me for daring to criticize just such teleological nonsense about "human superiority". Oh BOYYY!! I wanted to keep it on a somewhat higher level.
by gilgamesh (expat at 6719 dot it) on Tue Jul 12th, 2005 at 06:21:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is getting a bit silly over there, isn't it?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 12th, 2005 at 06:27:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Comments transfered.

I have only scanned the discussion on BooTrib; guess I'll wander over and really read it.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Jul 12th, 2005 at 11:19:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We live in a world where science becomes more relevant to man's self image and religion recedes with each passing day. Underneath so-called religion you will find the naked force of the Will to Power alive and well. Beware.
by Coriolanus on Tue Jul 12th, 2005 at 10:48:45 AM EST


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