Garçon, s'il vous plait!

by Jerome a Paris
Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 11:08:48 AM EST

There's lots to write about today, but I just don't feel like it, so here's a lighter theme for those of you sick to death with gas...

I live just above a fairly typical Parisian Brasserie, those restaurants/cafés/bars that are open throughout the day for the various needs of the day - the coffee in the morning, lunch, dinner in the evening, and snacks, drinks or light food throughout the day. It is staffed by the archetypal Parisians garçons - men, of all ages but rarely very young, in their black and white livery, and their amazing ability to speedily carry all sorts of things in their hands and on their arms throughout the day, and their selective approach to clients (more on that later).

For us, the place is very convenient, being downstairs from home - which meant that we could escape to it, when the children were younger, when they were asleep, with the babyphone carrying far enough to work there. It also helped that they serve excellent meat and very decent wines, as well as a wide variety of other dishes.

Tourists often complain about the surly, unfriendly treatment they get in Paris restaurants or brasseries.


The important thing to know is that this is not just true of tourists - it applies to everybody, foreigner or French, tourist or Parisian. The only thing that matters is whether you are recognised as a regular or not. If not, you will get the basic treatment: service will be mostly indifferent (unless you are lucky to find someone friendly, but there is an element of randomness at play - you can also find someone surly, impatient or even hostile), and probably not very satisfactory, especially if the place is busy (as you may have noticed, these brasseries work with a fairly limited number of people given their size - garçons probably have to serve 2-3 times more tables than their counterparts in the USA). Tipping is not required, but is appreciated as it provides a real add on to the income of the garçons. They used to live only on tips, but now "service is included" in prices, which means that they always get a salary, but it is often quite low, especially considering how tough a job it can be.

Everything changes when you begin to be recognised by the garçons. If they remember you, and they remember that you have tipped them decently in previous occasions (say, 5% of the bill or more), they will start being much nicer to you, engaging in light conversation and giving you honest recommendations on the menu (telling you whether the special of the day is worth it or not, or which wines in the list are really good value for their price). The whole experience of eating at such a brasserie becomes a lot more pleasant and friendly.

You know EXACTLY when you step into that category of "recognised clients": the garçons will offer to shake your hand. This is a very important step, and a very important formality, and it signals your entry into a new realm. They will start engaging in conversation with you; soon, you'll be able to choose your favorite table, you'll get complimentary peanuts or snacks with your drinks, and you can send back your meat if it's undercooked without being treated with contempt. All these things may sound fairly mundane (and maybe even as basic items of service to many of you) but they mark a real difference in the treatment of regulars and occasional clients in a brasserie in Paris.

Now we get a nod each time we walk past the brasserie, and our kids can hop in to get candy - at least two of the garçons have a special stash for them. If they are on the terrace, they'll talk to us even if we're not coming to the brasserie.

To give you an idea of the kinds of small advantages this brings, here's a tale from last month. Brasseries often install seafood stalls on the sidewalk in front of them during the winter months. Oysters, shrimps and other delicacies are sold both to clients of the brasserie as specials on the menu, or as take-away to anyone else directly on the street. This is a very convenient service for the holidays dinners, if you can get good quality products. Now, as it were, our brasserie always has good quality produce - excellent meat, fresh vegetables, homemade fries and so on, and we were happy to trust them to buy the oysters and shrimps we wanted for New Year's Eve. But, as the person handling the seafood stall was not a regular of the brasserie and did not know us, there was a risk that we would not get the best choice. So when we came to buy what we needed, one of the garçons pointedly came outside to shake our hands in front of the salesperson and talk to us, to make sure that we'd be well treated and get the best products available. (Note that this happened without us soliciting it in any way)

And now, our brasserie even has - quite a luxury in Paris - a real non-smoking area for lunch and dinner.

The idea that regulars get better service is nothing new, I know, and the quality of service we are talking about may sound like nothing out of the ordinary in other parts of the world where these things are taken more seriously, but I think there is more depth, and genuine care, in that brasserie service which makes it a really pleasurable experience. And it means that you get 2-Michelin-star service for the price of a normal meal. And it actually makes business sense for the brasserie, as the people who have come often enough to the brasserie to rate such service are likely to come more often to keep on enjoying it - thus the brasserie gets the repeat business and does not need to worry so much about occasional clients. It's really a self-sustaining relationship.

In our case, we are quite lucky, as the quality of the food in our brasserie is really good, and the level of service - even for newcomers - also. Proof that this is the case actually comes from the fact that the owner of the brasserie is obviously a successful businessman and has actually taken over two other restaurants in out street, and personnel sometimes moves between the various places. So now we are blessed with at least 3 nice places where to go eat, where we are "honorably known" and where the standards are quite high. Which of course means that we hardly ever get out of our neighborood when we go out. Why bother with uncertain quality and indifferent service when you are treated like kings right at home? And thus our brasserie thrives...

So. Any experiences with Parisian garçons and service? Any horror stories? At home, do you go out in your neighborood? Do you like to go to the same place or to change each time? What are your experiences with service in restaurants in general? How do YOU treat waiters and waitresses?

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Speaking as an obnoxious American (although often mistaken for British when on the Continent), I have never had any problem in France--other than not being able to keep up my side of a conversation. I have no idea where the stories come from, frankly...
by asdf on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 12:01:56 PM EST
Well, I understand where they can come from. The haughty (or simply, as Alex puts it below, indifferent/harried) service you can get as a Parisian in places you go for the first time can be a but offputting and, if you are so inclined, be attributed to anti-Americanism or to rudeness, and easily become 'typically French' if it happens more than once.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 12:42:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And it becomes "typically American" when you see American tourists acting obnoxious.  The idea of the "obnoxious American" is so ingrained in your city that people actually refused to accept that I was American! (also because I apparently did not "look like an American," which is a little odd, seeing as almost every ethnicity under the sun is represented in this country).  It was flattering in a way, but illustrated a certain narrowmindedness on the part of the Parisians as well.  Which is, interestingly, the rap that Americans usually get.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 05:41:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and you suggest that even Parisians are treated "rudely" at brasseries, unless they are regulars.  But I wasn't a regular and I really wasn't treated rudely.  (They were probably grummbling about me behind my back or something...)  

What's your theory?  Mine?  It also helps if you are a charming, attractive foreign young woman attempting to use what few French speaking skills she has ...

See, I really am an obnoxious American!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 06:05:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not rudely, but at least indifferently , or 'surlyly' - and it certainly helps if you are a young attractive female indeed.

Americans get noticed because they speak loudly (so do Italians), and are seen as obnoxious because too many of them don't make the effort to speak any word of French and just expect everybody to reply in English. Anybody that makes the effort to say 'excoosay moi' first will get at least decent treatment.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Jan 15th, 2006 at 03:55:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have found that if I start looking at the menu and say "Je voudrai une ...(pause)", within a few seconds the garçon will say, "Waddya want?" in a New York accent and accept whatever future attempts I make with good humor.
by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Sun Jan 15th, 2006 at 06:30:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The trick is to show willing but make at attempt so bad that they stop you from butchering the language. In fact, I think being embarrassed you don't speak the language is generally sufficient.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Jan 15th, 2006 at 11:54:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Same here, but I do speak French.
by Lupin on Sun Jan 15th, 2006 at 12:58:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No experience in Paris, only in the Bretagne, very friendly to strangers, but I guess that's culturally very different from Paris. Plus near castle Chambord, but I guess that doesn't count (for-tourists).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 12:18:41 PM EST
...is where East Friesians (in German: Ostfriesen) live. In Germany, they have a reputation of being crazy (helped a lot by popular-in-the-eighties-nineties comedian Otto Walkees).

When on vacationin the region in autumn 1988, in Bremerhaven, we ate at a fish fast food restaurant, and the red-haired owner/seller/waiter seemed either intent on fulfilling the stereotypical expectations or genuinely crazy - he would tell us silly things and jokes constantly while serving us. That in a good-natured-way, I hasten to add.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 12:24:47 PM EST
As a counterpoint, I remember my last visit in the US - in 2002 in Houston (in the middle of the Enron meltdown, it was funny in its own way). The restaurants have LOTS more waiters than in Paris. I joked that there was one person to bring the forks, one for the knifes and one for the spoons, but I was hardly exagerating. All very nice, and all Mexican (or Latin American). But you really had 3 times more people than in a Paris brasserie- and equivalent quality of service, I'd say.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 12:28:33 PM EST
That really epends on the restaurant.  The experience you describe doesn't sound very representative to me.  There are high end, and aspiring restaurants that lay the service on very thick.  But in most places the waitstaff is either just adequate or overworked.  Usually the latter.

Or maybe it's one of those Texas things.  More always means better in Texas.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 05:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome-

the extra waiters you saw supplying knives and spoons and all that were most likely bussers. they are ppl who clean off tables when ppl leave, who set up the silverware, who help to set up service for food at a table...they're sort of "waiters in training" or sometimes they work that job as an extra. it's the lowest rung of the wait staff, reflected in the smaller percentage of tips they receive.

in addition to a set percentage, waiters will tip bussers who do a good job for them.

by fauxreal on Mon Jan 16th, 2006 at 04:15:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From personal experience, it's only in really busy cafés that the servers become indifferent to you. Impatience I've encountered on rare occasions, but since I'm not one of the "the client is king" type, I write it off as that person having a bad day. Anyhow you can tell when someone is in a bad/busy mood, judging by how they react to your attempts at polite conversation. (ie. if they go "ahuh oh ya ahuh" you quickly get the hint that they don't care).

And wouldn't we all be impatient, when we have ten people calling us from around the room, while we're waiting for some person to decide what drink he'll have ("ok a tomato juice. no no that's no good not at this time, maybe i'll have a ricard. no I don't want to get drunk. do you think I should have a beer maybe? (asks the server) or maybe I'll have a glass of wine, i don't know" etc etc etc)

I do agree with you Jérôme that the level of indifference is proportional to the number of clients to serve. (nota bene: to me it's not hostility, it's at worst indifference that I have encountered. hostility i've never seen)

Overall, brasseries and cafés are excellent and I've more often found friendly servers than the opposite.

by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 12:31:12 PM EST
I think the most annoying treatment I've had, is here in Toulouse in a restaurant which I won't named unless asked (a high class restaurant that wants to retain a brasserie feel and look - so let's say something between a restaurant and a brasserie).

The owner, who is also one of the servers, moved to Toulouse from Paris, tired of the hustle and bustle of the capital. He was a renowned owner there, having received oenological medals etc for serving some of the best wine in Paris.

So first of all, let me say that the food was gigantically excellent. To the point where you eat small/medium-size dises but feel stuffed afterwards, the food being so good that you actually take time to chew and enjoy it => which satisfies your satiety center.

I had an aïoli de raie (ray fish with garlic mmmmh), then some mouth-drooling and utterly delicious fish with broccoli ... along with the finest wine in the region (probably).

And this was all rather cheap (maybe 40 euros a head).

So what was the problem? The owner.

This guy comes and engages in conversation ... about food. About how people just don't enjoy food these days, about how people order salmon when they could be tasting infinitely better fish, salmon which he wouldn't even feed his dog with but that he has to serve or else he'd be ruined, salmon which he'd like to throw at those customers' face. And people add salt to a perfectly salted dish, and they all drink cheap whiskey, and god what the hell is wrong with people and blablabla. And not of the "I serve excellent food and I am sad that people like McDonald's these days" type ... but of the "I serve excellent food and I am going to beat the shit out of anyone who eats even moderately good food".

At one point his wife came over and smuggled some ketchup to the kids at our table, telling them to hide it.

Do you see what I mean?

by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 12:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
40 Euros a head is cheap???

I was just thinking earlier today about how impressed my boss (a Francophile) was with the very highest class restaurant in Colorado Springs: The Blue Star (http://thebluestar.net/Default.htm).

You can get out of there for about $50 per head, but it's not considered "cheap" by any means...

by asdf on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 01:27:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Hungary, €10 per head would be considered expensive... ('tho, at purchase power parity, that is about €18.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 01:38:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's usually the wine that gets the price to hike up, in a restaurant. And here we had some very good wine.

The food itself would have been maybe 20-25 euros, I think.

by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 01:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah, make that rather 30, and 10 for the wine ... as I recall there were only 3 of us drinking out of 8 (3 kids, 2 non-drinkers). Yeah, something like that ...

When I say rather cheap anyhow I do mean for food of such quality.

by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 01:47:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do people do BYOB (bring your own bottle) in Europe?  I am a big fan of BYOB.  I can get and excellent bottle of wine for $15-$20 at the wine broker and take it to a restaurant and not worry about having to order a $9 glass or $40 bottle of mediocre stuff.  There is a corkage fee, but I find it is worth it.

And I disagree that good food has to be expensive.  I suppose it depends on where you live, but I don't see a significant correlation between cost and food quality.  I've had many fine meals for under $20, and some real dissapointments at high end places.  In fact, I think there is a suspension of disbelief that is required to eat at many chic places.  (Not to mention that if you cook at home, it is usually cheaper AND better.)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 02:47:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Either few places allow that, or I haven't seen any. But some bars allow you to bring your own food :))
by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 04:03:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Really?  That's interesting.  I think the BYOB began when restaurants here didn't want to go through the hassle of getting a liquor license (which requires the neighbors to approve and gobs of red tape).  So you had to bring your own.  And there is always a liquor store somewhere nearby.  But it's becoming more common to bring your own to places that do serve alcohol.  

It is interesting, because I guess we don't have a lot of brasserie type places, exactly.  There are bars, where you go primarily to imbibe, and you can get a burger or fish and chips if you get hungry, cafes, where you go for a coffee, tea and a snack or light meal, and restaurants, where you go to eat.  You'd never bring your own bottle to a bar.  But you'd rarely go to a bar to eat a fine meal either...  The exceptions to this rule, in my area, are the French bistros and the Belgian beer place...

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 05:30:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A few years ago, when celebrating someone in a restaurant, incidentally another fish (but not fast food) restaurant in the Northern Budapest district Újpest, we had this waiter who looked like out of a mafia movie. To get his favour meant to talk to him and listen to him. Always with the same coreography: he would say he doesn't like to talk about this or that, but of course the old devil wanted to, and after some encouragement he did.

So we learnt how he got 'struck' here because of finding a wife here - in the 'communist' years, there was the pehnomenon of 'Italianising': Italians coming here for nice women, nice women looking out for rich and nice Italian men who'd take them to the West -, how the wife must be looking down on him (for not being a rich guy who took her), how she is a curse and a miralce, about his daughter, and about his exasperation that Hungarians only know a few types of paprika and tomato, and so on...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 12:35:02 PM EST
I've always felt that the stereotype of the rude French was absolute bull***t. Sure, I've had bad service in France, I've also met random unpleasant people - same as everywhere else.  I think these myths are kept alive because anytime people experience anything that fits them, they instantly see it as confirming the bias, while ignoring what doesn't. Same goes for the idea of the rude New Yorker. (Though a handful of places deliberately cultivate the stereotype, e.g. some of the classic delis like Katz's). One difference between NY and most other places is that waitstaff in mid level places tend to be students and struggling creative types. (Low level ones have illegals, high level ones professional waiters - rarely waitresses - who make very good money)
by MarekNYC on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 12:58:01 PM EST
Durgin Park is a restaurant in Boston that tries to cultivate the repuation for rude wait staff.
by asdf on Sun Jan 15th, 2006 at 10:13:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My experience in Paris restaurants was very good, for the most part, outright friendly. The waiters and waitresses made as equal an effort in speaking with me as I was trying to speak w/ them -no condescending tone at all. And they had to work to understand me, or for me to understand them.

It was really touching, being a stranger and hungry. I did not go to many brassieres, simply smaller restaurants, which were not in the center of the city.

Aside from a few painful looks from people trying to understand me, I did get a rather negative response in a cafe in Paris. I was trying to ask "how much for the coffee?". Instead of Combien, I used Comment, thus instead of asking "How much would you like me to pay you?" I asked "How would you like me to pay you?" To which the man behind the bar replied "What?" To which, I very slowly and articulately repeated in my best French "How would you like me to pay you?". To which he replied in the tone of "Get out of my store." "One Euro".... Only after running the dialogue in my head several times did I understand the look I received.

Another time in a brassiere I asked in very slow French where are the bathrooms? To which the waiter replied in quick articulate English "Downstairs".

by aden on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 01:42:55 PM EST
Another time in a brassiere I asked in very slow French where are the bathrooms? To which the waiter replied in quick articulate English "Downstairs".

I try to refrain from doing that, but I usually can't resist it: whenever a British/American tourist (or not a tourist) asks me for directions in strugging, slow French (with an accent that gives their origin away), I reply in English. At first they seem very slightly offended, which I can understand and that's why I try to refrain from doing it, but eventually they're glad that I can explain without them having to struggle with their dictionary.

by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 01:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You could introduce yourself ("I'm Alex by the way..."); this would certainly help breaking the ice, and, who knows, you could meet very interesting people without having to go on line... :-)

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 02:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I've met my share of people in odd ways/places ... for example a funny Aussie guy I met in a laundromat in Paris, or a future girlfriend on a skiing trip, mistaking her for someone else at night when both of us were drunk ;))

But good point. I actually just sort of stand there, flexing my muscles, grinning with vanity ... maybe I could ask "so where y'all from?"

by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 02:13:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm from Toulouse, actually.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 02:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was meaning that I could ask that when talking to people asking directions, but I'm happy to say hi to another Toulousain! And if you like rugby, we beat the Londoners today!!! Yeeeeeeeeha.
by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 04:01:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When I arrived in France I hadn't spoken one word of French since highschool.  The first day, I tried to order something in English.  No, I asked the man, in French, if he spoke English.  And he shook his head no.  So I tried to order in French, and he smiled, looked at me, and said in English, "See, I knew you could do it."  :)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 02:52:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's my impression that in lots of Europe people are "professional" waiters. This is considered a recognized line of work and treated with the same amount of respect as any other trade.

In the US the job is considered as something one is forced into doing because of a lack of other (better) opportunities. In NYC and LA lots of young people trying to get into acting or writing take on jobs as waiters. To show what low regard the work has the federal hourly pay rate is $2.13 per hour compared with $5.15 for jobs where tips are not expected.

My (limited) experience has been that those who work where the job is considered respectable treat their customers better than those who are only doing it for the money.

There is also a new trend in the US. Lots of seasonal resort areas are now importing young people to work in the restaurants during the summer. I've met quite a few from various parts of Eastern Europe working in upstate New York and New England. They all speak English reasonably well (certainly better than I speak Bulgarian!), are polite and efficient - perhaps part of the European expectations for waiters.

Just my 2 cents...

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 01:57:06 PM EST
My experience too.  They work for room and board.  It has also been my experience that the Eastern Europeans - white - are brought in for waiting tables, chauffering (that's always an adventure ...), etc. and Carribeans - black- are brought in for housekeeping, dishes, etc.  That really annoys me.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 05:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So. Any experiences with Parisian garçons and service?

Uhm, well, yes.  One was so nice to me I ended up spending my whole time in Paris with him. :)  Hahaha.  Oh, it was hard to leave that town...

Another wonderful brasserie experience: it was in the middle of the night and most people had gone home, and it was just me, a guy from Russia, and the guy running the place.  And American, a Russian, and a Frenchman (and at some point, yes, we all did walk into the bar!) We were watching the Olympics on tv, and the top ranked countries were ... USA, Russia and France.  I think we all had this freaky "OMG, it is a small world" moment...

IMO, American waiters vacillate between surliness and fakey "How ya doin' hon?" friendliness.  And incompetence across the board.  But we have several restaurants in our nieghborhood where we are treated very much like family.  Chicago is one of the restaurant capitals of the world, and we would be insane not to take advantage of the gems in our neighborhood.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 01:58:22 PM EST
Entrance to most places is controlled by the 'portseri' or doorman/Bouncer. Their job is to keep a nice queue going as street advertising, even though the place is half empty and it's minus 10 outside. They also deal with trouble.

During my wilder years I got to know a few of these guys, mostly by being a very good tipper (upon exit), but also partly because I was then in the public eye and thus sort of person they liked to have as a customer. After a few months I no longer queued. Even today there's a doorman at a still hot club who will even shout across the street if he sees me.

I think I must have made a considerable contribution over the years to his Merc and his small sailing boat. Still, that was better than freezing to death. But the jealous stares of the queuers haunt me still ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 02:01:31 PM EST
In Hungary, that the waiters will curiously 'mis-calculate' (and always upward) when bringing the cheque is a stereotype, so people usually do the calculation for checking. Maybe just for that reason, I have never been attempted to be tricked in Hungary. The one attempt I remember was in Austria, where I pretended that I haven't seen it and even gave him tip, to demonstrate that I'm not a cheap tourist. (Why? Long story not for ET.)

Have you been presented a 'mis-calculated' cheque? If yes, where, and how did you react?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 02:21:50 PM EST
Romania used to be FAMOUS, I mean absolutely famous, for "rounding up" the check, not to mention adding in all kinds of phantom charges.

They get away with this a lot less now (probably b/c as you said, everyone double checks) but it's still easy to do esp since all Romanian restaurants seem to have a law to snatch the menu away from you as soon as you order.

Service in Romania?  Usually indifferent with a capital i.  If you want the waiter/waitress, you sometimes have to walk around to find them.  "Service" isn't really something understood or practiced here.

Can't say as I eat out enough at one place to know if that changes over time...

Pax

Night and day you can find me Flogging the Simian

by soj on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 03:17:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Sri Lanka we used to hang out in a lot of bars with my friends. And the guys there have a habit of adding fictitious totals to your bill when they see that you're drunk. So I got into the habit of checking. This wasn't another one of these "rip off the white person" thing, for example my buddies (Lankans) would get ripped off all the time too and are the ones who encouraged me into checking the totals, even when very drunk (and you can imagine how hard that is). When you find out you're being ripped off, you politely say "are you sure these extra xx rupees are ok, you might have made a mistake, no?" (thus giving them a chance to get away with it).

The only bar where this never happened was this one bar we visited more regularly than any other. We had sympathised a lot with the waiters there. One of my buddies, a Lankan working with a medical NGO, eventually sponsored one of the waiters, a very shy and extremely nice ex-cop, by helping him build his own house in some rural place. I also gave a few thousand rupees to another waiter there so that he could start his own pig business (ouch ouch, my poor karma probably got hammered in the process). Nota bene: he wasn't a Buddhist but a Catholic ... no respectable Buddhist would ever think about sending pigs to the slaughter for a living.

Anyhow, this kind of regularity was only obtained after a couple of years of going there. ps: for curious people, the bar was owned by some local mafia guy.  A picture of the Boss shaking hands with Premadasa, a former hardline SL president with possible underground connections, who got bombed by the LTTE, was throning over the main room. The bar was "upmarket" when compared to the downstairs one. Downstairs, it was cats and dogs hanging around, chicken bones flung over tables, drunkards in sarongs singing and singing and singing, weird tasting moonshine for very cheap ... but upstairs, upstairs we had the air conditioning, and a TV playing non-stop Bollywood movies ... drinks were twice more expensive than downstairs, the windows had been painted all black which made the place very dark. Plastic plants, red curtains ... frankly not a very nice looking place ... but man what a great hangout. We'd order booze either in grams or centiliters. For example, in Sinhala: "machang, mata arakku siyak denna" ("dude, bring me 100 cl of arrack").

By the way, a message you often see written in huge letters in Lankan bars is: "SINGING IS PROHIBITED". It's kind of a tradition there ... one table starts singing a Baila, a sort of Portuguese-inherited rythm (as the name also suggests) a bit like rap in the sense that you make up the lyrics which are not meant to be lewd, obscene, and sarcastic, but which end up being just that in bars ... and you make the lyrics rhyme. Then you sing off with your buddies hitting a beat with the furniture, or with the cutlery. So when this singing suddently erupts at a table, other people applaud the lyrics, and then another table will reply with the next verse, and join in in the rythm. Soon enough, the whole place will be hitting an excellent rythm on objets around the bar, and singing really loud. You can imagine the level of noise and laughter.

ps: a baila extract (MP3 file) ... I don't know if this link will work for long though

pss: I guess I'm feeling a bit nostalgic about the place, and that's why I wrote this long bit of trivia

by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 03:50:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you manage to get through to the MP3 file, listen to it until the end, it turns into part-English and is quite ridiculously funny ("papa singing, mama dancing, bounces up and down, in the kitchen the girls and boys are browning papadam").
by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 03:53:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While I've spent a lot of time in France, mostly in short stints (what happens when you live a couple km from the border), I haven't spent much time in Paris, just a few trips. My most recent one was back about five or six years ago. We had two great food experiences. One was buying tons of great cheese and butter (raw milk butter - yum!) at a few specialty shops, and stuffing ourselves at our rented studio. Cheap and good. The second was figuring out the best high end price/quality ration place we could find. It was some tiny, cramped, run down place in an outer working class arrondissement - no point in remembering the name since a year or two later the chef left for one of those super expensive three stars. In any case though, the food was of three star quality for about $150 for two - not cheap but great value. The service was very good but none of them spoke any English. The table next to ours had three American woman in Paris on business, they spoke no French. I watched the ordering with amusement, particularly when one asked about the riz de veau (sweetbreads - i.e. pancreas and thymus). The waiter explained 'leetle mooo.' Friend of woman - aah, probably some rice and veal dish. I struggled to keep a straight face  and chose not to enlighten them.  My girlfriend was away at the bathroom, when she came back and I told her what happened she accused me of being mean - but with a smile on her face. She agreed that well prepared sweetbreads are a wonderful thing to discover. Unfortunately when the American woman got the dish she figured out that whatever it was, it wasn't normal meat and pushed it away in disgust. Average Americans are so conservative about food - my local wine shop owner still thinks of me as the guy with a sick taste in food because I once mentioned I was making tripe - the perfect winter comfort food.
by MarekNYC on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 04:46:08 PM EST
It's not spelt "riz" though, but "ris". So in writing it should be clear(er) that it's something else... But yes it was a bit mean of you to have a perfectly good plate of ris wasted!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 05:05:08 PM EST
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Haha.  Your story reminds me of David Sedaris... "Are them the thoughts of cows?"

I do think the average American is becoming more adventurous and discriminating about food.  At least, they've come a long way in the last 20 years.  Being a "foodie" is a status symbol, the Food Network and PBS cooking shows are extremely popular, and chain grocery stores are carrying more gourmet and ethnic foods.  It's not Europe, but there has been a backlash to the pre-packaged, fast food culture.  At least among those who can afford to eat anything else.

But tripe?  I like a lot of funky stuff, but tripe is definately an acquired taste...

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 05:13:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's an old joke actually, I've seen a similar scene in a French movie twenty years ago; sometimes, reality is stranger than fiction.

And yes, it also reminds me of David Sedaris, especially Picka Pocketoni

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 05:57:01 PM EST
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Not about waiters but linked to your "riz de veau".....

On my first and last ordinary package tour to Spain I foolishly got a full board deal so had one or two meals at the hotel a day. Fortunately it catered for a variety of nationalities so I could pretend to be German is needs be. The resturant used to post its menus in Spanish, German, French and English. One day they had pineapple on the menu but did not translate it from the French into English. Consequently I overheard a woman from the north of England exclaim loudly "ooooh look, they've got bananas on the menu and they've missed off the B"  

by Londonbear on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 11:01:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just came back from the Vismarkt in in Groningrad... er... Groningen in Holland, today - it's so much different than the glossed over, 'we-make-chocolate-in-your-face' trendy, Granville Island Market in Vancouver.

Or the London Thai Dye break-in-three-second-made-in-Nepal bag.  Really... it's tough to beat Camden or Portabello on a hot summer day just for people watching and haggling.

But... the Groningen Vismarkt is one I love. It's the largest seafood market in Holland - and has a great spirit with onion-laden raw herring being deep throated right and left, attractive and odorous Mediterranean spices and olives and Arab bread lingering...

I love this place on days like today.

Atlantic Free Press

by ghandi (expatforums@gmail.com) on Sat Jan 14th, 2006 at 06:28:25 PM EST
I agree heartily in what you say, and I've found that trying to use French, even though I'm obviously not a native is very much appreciated, and always greeted with a friendly response. I've also found that staring with a drink or glass of wine puts les Garcons in a better frame of mind: higher bill, more service compris. The extra 2 euros makes a difference.

Here in Baltimore, I prefer to return to places where I've received good food and service in the past, but the boss likes "new" places. So it's about half and half.

The other feature of cafes and bistros is that many Americans are not aware of what great value they are. From the €1 or €1.5 coffee or €2.5 glass of wine, to the €5 omelet or €2.50 jambon sandwich. Modest American restaurants have glasses of wine at $5, or more usually $7 or $8! Entrees at $18-$24. Even modern diners are $8.50 for a club sandwich. The dreadful chains are $12 for an entree, next to screaming babies. It's like hell, but with more parking.

So Paris may have some of the most expensive restaurants in the world, but the bistro dinner is a great bargain.

dualnational

by dualnational (melvinhecht @ comcast. net) on Sun Jan 15th, 2006 at 10:12:56 AM EST
My first memory of getting special status at a restaurant was in Paris. When I was about 7 or so we lived for a short time in a studio on a small street in Paris, right across from a Chinese restaurant with red paneling and golden dragons. My parents went there on a regular basis and after a while got to know the wait staff, cooks and owner quite well. I got my first chopstick lessons there. However, what impressed me the most at the time was that we started one of the early Chinese take out services. We would all go over to the restaurant and after placing our order and talking with the owner and staff for a while our dishes would arrive and we'd take them up to the studio with us to have dinner at home. I would later be sent across the street to return the clean silverware and dishes. I went back to the restaurant a few years ago with my husband and while the decor had not changed the food turned out to be the worst Chinese food I've ever had (actually lets say the second worse - the worse was in downtown Albany, NY two years ago, so much for being the capital of New York state).

We don't live in a city now so there is no restaurant across the street but when we do go out we often end up going back to the same places that have never failed to be good. One of our favorites is a Moroccan restaurant with no official service and delicious food. By now we're recognized as regulars with a hello, a smile and a nod every time we go there and, if time permits, a conversation with one of the owners. There are only a few tables and you order at the counter that separates the tables from the kitchen area. When the food is ready they call out your name & you go pick it up at the counter. When the place isn't too busy someone will bring the dishes to your table. After enjoying the meal, music and talk you pick up your dirty dishes and place them in a plastic basin that the staff will later take to the kitchen. It's a far cry from the trained waiters of a Paris Brasserie but the food and atmosphere are wonderful!

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Sun Jan 15th, 2006 at 12:33:14 PM EST
In Caen, I told the waiter "Je n'ai pas décidé", to which he immediately responded, "Vous n'avez pas des ideés?"

Having been told in advance that Normans were a bit cold, I always began in a shop by saying, "Pardon Madame, je parle français très mal. Pouvez-vous m'aider?" to which the invariable reply was, "Mais non, vous parlez très bien, qu'est-ce que vous voulez?" I never met nicer people anywhere.

When I was planning to go to France the first time, some people on hearing my news would get a funny look on their face, and say, "Hmm, I've heard the French don't really like Americans". "That's OK," I would smile, "I don't like Americans much either".

What many Americans don't understand is that the French often refuse to speak English not out of arrogance, but timidity, as speaking correctly--in any language--is so important in France. If they fear they might have even a little accent, they will force the foreigner to speak French, however haltingly.

Jerôme, your story makes me miss France so much I ache.

Pogo: We have met the enemy, and he is us.

by d52boy on Sun Jan 15th, 2006 at 01:21:38 PM EST
I really liked your diary. I have been to the brassieries in France, I didn't notice anything, but I never do when I go to restaruants. I don't care if the waiter or waitress isn't particularly friendly. And I don't know why people expect that in addition to the food that should recieve anything more than someone who is attentive. Sometimes when I go for dinner with someone they will say something about the waiter not being friendly or something. I always think, (having never graduated in a restaurant beyond a bus boy myself) what difference does it make? Maybe they don't feel good, maybe they aren't being phony, maybe that's just the way they are. As long as you get the food and the staff is reasonalbly attentive that's all that matter, but I think people secretly desire to see someone be subservient to them, to act slavishly toward them. That's not the role of a waiter or waitress.

It's funny when people go to France they have to come back with a story about how rude the people are. You can't come back and say everyone was nice....it's a conversation stopper.

Samething with Rio De Janeiro...you have to come back with a story of being robber or an attempted robbery. Or Mexico.

Outside of the Frontier, Mexico seems a very safe place to me. I traveled in the fabled Ghetto of Neza and instead of being robbed was invited to two parties, one in a very nice house...just from walking down the street.

The world is not a dangerous place as Bush says. Not really. Not among people, just politicians.

by Stu Piddy on Sun Jan 15th, 2006 at 01:45:49 PM EST
Yes indeed! to all of the above.

Pogo: We have met the enemy, and he is us.
by d52boy on Mon Jan 16th, 2006 at 12:28:11 AM EST
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