European Tribune

Extending EU Broadcasting Regulations to the Internet

by marco
Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 04:49:32 AM EST

With Google's recent acquisition of YouTube last week, the European Commission's proposal to revise its Television Without Frontiers directive may get some additional attention.

In fact, I had not heard of the directive until I happened to read an article in The Times of London, describing the opposition of businesses and British ministers to the Eureopean Commission's proposal to extend current EU regulations covering television broadcasting to Internet-based video media, in particular "video blogging" à la YouTube and video.google.com.

Promoted by Colman


One point which caught my eye -- and raised my concern -- was a quote by British Broadcasting Minister Shaun Woodward:

"Supposing you set up a website for your amateur rugby club, uploaded some images and added a link advertising your local sports shop. You would then be a supplier of moving images and need to be licensed and comply with the regulations."

Navigating EU regulation documentation was way, way more than I had bargained for, but looking through the text, I could not find any explicit reference to licensing.

However, the text does say:

The aim of the revision is to define rules for audiovisual media services in a platform neutral way, which would mean that the same basic rules apply to the same kind of services. The set of applicable rules shall no longer depend on the delivery platform but on the nature of a service. The future regulation will distinguish between linear audiovisual services or "broadcasting", including IPTV, streaming or web-casting on one side, and non-linear services, such as "video-on-demand"- services, on the other side.

<...>

Non-linear (on-demand) services will be subject to some minimum principles with regard to * protection of minors * prohibition of incitement to hatred * identification of the media service provider * identification of commercial communication * some qualitative restrictions for commercial communication ( ex. for alcohol or targeted at minors).

Also,

The proposal will considerably reduce the complexity involved in the monitoring of the rules concerning television advertising. As the harmonisation of minimum rules for non-linear audiovisual services mostly does not introduce new obligations for operators but only harmonises them at European level to implement the country of origin principle, it therefore seems proportionate to the objective.

So, if I understand this verbiage correctly, the proposal is motivated in part to extend existing broadcast-related protections from the world of conventional television to the Internet, and it is also aimed at simplifying/standardizing or "harmonizing" existing regulations among different countries in the EU.

I suspect that what some might be protesting about (regarding requiring a license to post videos) may lie in the following line:

Non-linear services are different from linear services with regard to choice and control the user can exercise and with regard to the impact they have on society[17]. This justifies imposing lighter regulation on non-linear services, which only have to comply with the basic rules provided for in Articles 3c to 3h.

I could not find those basic rules in Articles 3c to 3h, but maybe that is where the requirements for licensing are located?

Basic question: Who would be required to have the license to post/host videos?  YouTube or every person who uploads a video to it?  Or if you are posting a video to your own personal website (under a domain that you own), does your ISP have to have the license, or you, or both?

In one of Fran's morning breakfasts in May there was some discussion of this, in which Metatone commented that the proposal for the directive revision

puts me on the same side as a "coalition of European business organisations".

Completely sloppy diary, I'm sorry; I am pretty confused about all this.  But as I am a big fan of YouTube, both as a watcher and increasingly as someone who uses it to share videos with friends and family, I am wondering exactly what this Television Without Frontiers revision would really mean.  I also wonder if such regulations would have any impact on EuroTrib.com itself, for example? (or was Mr. Woodward's quote above just anti-regulation fear mongering?)

In the end, will we be able to file this under Chronicles of regulation that works?

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Only tangential to the diary, but couldn't resist sharing this video of Stephen Colbert "demolishing" Richard Dawkins on evolution.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 12:31:41 AM EST
Mustn't let the peasants grab the airwaves...

I'm not sure how paranoid this makes me feel. It suggests a retread and respin of the net neutrality nonsense in the US.

The problem is that the genie is already out of the bottle. There are too many people producing content for fun and profit to make retrospective regulation and licensing practical. And the idea that all it takes is 'moving images' to qualify for regulation is ridiculous, because it includes everyone who uses Flash or animated GIFs.

And then there are the usual questions of location, jurisdiction, hosting vs origination, and the rest.

So this is more Keystone Politics, with idiots blundering around bumping into things and trying to look efficient while really not having a clue what they're talking about. Getting legislation that deals with this written and enforced is going to be an interesting challenge.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 04:34:05 AM EST
Actually, as I wrote in my response to Sven, I don't mind some (light) regulation per se, as long as it is designed and implemented well.

But I do mind the addition of unnecessary costs and frictions (Sven's terms).

For example, I think a bad regulation would be to require special licenses of any web site operator end/user (host, ower, customer) that sells something (in general) over the Internet.  Ditto for advertising something on a website or showing a video on a website (whether "linearly" or "non-linearly".)

On the other hand, I think a good regulation would be to ban (i.e. make illegal) the posting, hosting, sending, etc. of child pornography.  Another good regulation would require a special license to sell specific goods and services, such as firearms and oother weapons, certain drugs, etc.

More controversially, I would be against a regulation that made outlawed sell Nazi paraphernalia, or made it illegal to deny the Armenian genocide online.

Another way I would favor EU regulation would be if EU regulators could successfully work with individual member states to take the "intersection" so to speak of all their regulations and make that the core of the EU regulations.  In which case the sum total of all regulations that Internet users and businesses would have to worry about would be reduced and simplified.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:29:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is surely a regulatory mightmare! We are undergoing a phase transition in media in which the rules (and the breaking of them) that have evolved over 70 years no longer suit the relationship between  the electronic Fourth Estate and the non-electronic, and the other 3 (or how every many there might be).

Even the word 'advertising' is getting harder to define. What is political spin? What is the cult of celebrity? What do NGOs do to promote their issues? Are not these forms of advertising or promotion? How do we distinguish between different forms of content?

Is there any longer such a thing as pure entertainment? What if there was, but the presentation of it was accompanied by advertising (if it could be defined) as part of its financing model?

The huge change that has been taking place is simple - in one sense. All the major media, historically, have been high entry cost for production, content management and distribution. Whether a new newspaper, a new broadcast channel, street advertísing etc etc - the entry costs have been very high and have required the creation of legal entities that can be regulated.

Electronic media (read 'digital') have changed all that. The entry cost is minimal once the infrastructure is in place. The infrastructure is basically the billions of kilometres of fibreoptic cable built on top of the existing fixed line phone systems ie the Internet, and the content management system (www) to utilize it.

What we are moving toward is a form of friction-free transaction system that anyone can (and perhaps will) enter. ET as a 'channel' is not yet friction-free - it still requires a few hundred euros now and again. But the costs are infinitessimal compared to those that preceded it.

ET is a model of the future. Content creation is fully distributed and is no longer a cost in the traditional sense. The main 'cost' is simply the time, thought, knowledge and skills of individuals - spread over enough people that the 'burden' of content management is light enough to carry.

Taken to extreme, this means that, say, one million people working together in this way for 1 hour each week could produce a content creation/management/distribution system that is the equivalent of 7000 man-years of effort annually. Or, put another way, it is like having a media company with a full-time staff of 7000.

This is already nearly one third of the number of staff that runs the BBC (23,400) and which spends 4 billion quid annually.

Hmmm.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 04:43:51 AM EST
Electronic media (read 'digital') have changed all that. The entry cost is minimal once the infrastructure is in place. The infrastructure is basically the billions of kilometres of fibreoptic cable built on top of the existing fixed line phone systems ie the Internet, and the content management system (www) to utilize it.

Yes.  The cost of getting a license and following other rules that conventional TV broadcasters must follow may  be not only monetary (though probably it will be that, too), but it will exist, in terms of time, frustration, effort to the petitioner of the license, as well as time, money, and other kinds overhead to whatever agency would hand out those licenses.

The question is: Will the benefit of extending this licensing system outweight these collective costs?

What we are moving toward is a form of friction-free transaction system that anyone can (and perhaps will) enter. ET as a 'channel' is not yet friction-free - it still requires a few hundred euros now and again. But the costs are infinitessimal compared to those that preceded it.

Absolutely.  This is the reason for the explosion of creativity and technological advance on the Internet so far, as well as efficiencies and new opportunities that have emerged since the Internet use has become so widespread.

Having said this...

I am still trying to understand just what the existing regulations that European Commission directive would extend to the Internet consist of, but pace your comment, I could see where if the EU regulations were designed and implemented well, how they might be able to reduce costs and increase efficiencies.  In two ways:

1.  By eliminating redundancies and contradictions among existing laws and regulations among EU member states (as well as redundancies and contradictions among the member state agencies that oversee and enforce these.)

The directive revision proposal text itself makes this point:

There is a real risk of legal uncertainty if, with the emergence of on-demand audiovisual services, Member States were to derogate from the country of origin principle for public policy reasons with the effect that on-demand audiovisual services would be subject to non-harmonised rules in different Member States.
<...>
Without a harmonised European approach, pan-European offers would suffer from a lack of legal certainty and may choose to go offshore outside the EU and therefore in the medium-term harm Member State economies.

EU Commissioner for Information Society and Media Viviane Reding remarks:

"If you have 25 conflicting regulations in 25 countries, you can't take advantage of the internal market. When the new rules are applied, [content providers] can get authorisation in Britain and spread into 25 countries. I see a big chance for European content to travel," said Reding.

But then again, the proposal also say:

The draft only proposes minimum harmonisation to ensure the free movement of audiovisual media services in the internal market. As regards implementation, it explicitly refers to co- and self-regulation. ["co- and self-regulation"? Can anybody explain what these mean?]

Which seems to contradict the other passage I quoted from it just above.  Is the EC trying to have its cake and eat it, too?

2.  By pre-emptively (I know, probably unwise choice of words) making it much harder, or far riskier, to engage in socially harmful practices over the Internet (sexual solicitation of minors, fraud, etc.) that -- in addition to the immediate damages they inflict -- might also provoke a disproportionate emotional reaction and consequent a slew of unnecessarily heavy handed regulation.

In the same article above in which I quoted Viviane Reding, AOL UK's director of policy, Camille de Stempel, says:

"We believe existing legislation protects children and consumers. Child abuse images are already illegal...  We believe strongly in self regulation as the way forward."

and

Mike Cosse, Microsoft's lead counsel for Europe, argued that self-regulation by the industry was the answer. "Let's use self-regulation on content, and help the state in a cooperative, non-confrontational way," Cosse said.

Well, AOL and Microsoft may have incentives to self-regulate -- they don't want their share prices to drop -- but what about smaller players, or players whose interests are not correlated directly to market-share and share-prices?

One point that is not clear to me is, would EU regulations -- if I understand the text of the proposal correctly -- supplant individual member nation regulations?  Or would they be applied in addition to individual member state regulations?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:04:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Self-regulation for the big media companies does not necessarily imply  problems for the little 'distributed media companies'.

As the AOL quote states: existing law already offers the safeguards that society requires. It is the investigation and application of the law that is problematic.

Already many police forces are inadequately equipped and trained to handle Internet crime - whether spam, cons, pornography, viral attacks etc.

What is needed is a mechanism for not only self-regulation, but also for self-policing. The skills and equipment that the police need are already out there - in our own hands.

If the police really wanted to do something, they could deputise and pay. Web sheriffs. Much cheaper in the long run for them - though not without opening up a whole new can of worms ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:43:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is needed is a mechanism for not only self-regulation, but also for self-policing. The skills and equipment that the police need are already out there - in our own hands.

If the police really wanted to do something, they could deputise and pay. Web sheriffs. Much cheaper in the long run for them - though not without opening up a whole new can of worms ;-)

Do you mean that common users -- working as private individuals but in cooperation -- should police the Internet ourselves (in collaboration with public authorities)?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 11:08:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This may be related to the WiPo Broadcasting treaty Google TechTalk about the treaty

from EFF

If adopted, the WIPO treaty will give broadcasters 50 years of copyright-like control over the content of their broadcasts, even when they have no copyright in what they show. A TV channel broadcasting your Creative Commons-licensed movie could legally demand that no one record or redistribute it--and sue anyone who does. And TV companies could use their new rights to go after TiVo or MythTV for daring to let you skip advertisements or record programs in DRM-free formats.
by JeroenMostert on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 05:39:45 AM EST
A TV channel broadcasting your Creative Commons-licensed movie could legally demand that no one record or redistribute it--and sue anyone who does.

Sweet suffering Jesus.

I don't know if this has anything to do with the EU's Television Without Frontiers directive, but it's a horrible idea, and totally unjustified.

I see Robert (rdf) had a diary up in February about Intellectual Property in which dvx comments on what seems to be the same "Broadcasting Treaty":

At stake is the "webcasting provision" of the "Broadcasters' Treaty" underway at WIPO, the UN agency that handles copyrights, patents and the like. The Webcasting provision would make it illegal to retransmit Creative Commons licensed works (as well as public domain works, uncopyrightable works like those made by the US government, etc) without permission of the person who hosts them. In other words, it will no longer be enough to know that the author of the work wants you to share it -- you'll also need permission from the company that hosts and distributes the files.

(By the way, those Google TechTalks looks like a really great application of webcasting which I have not seen outside of university classrooms yet.  Hope they catch on.)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 06:33:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A TV channel broadcasting your Creative Commons-licensed movie could legally demand that no one record or redistribute it--and sue anyone who does.

Sweet suffering Jesus.

That is a violation of the Creative Commons Licence, they could be sued in their turn by the copyright holder.

Let's be clear, Copyleft and the Creative Commons licences do not abolish copyright, they use it to enforce different licencing regimes than the usual ones. It is still your intellectual property, and it is protected by copyright law. If someone bradcasts a movie you licensed and then breaks the license they have violated your copyright.

I am not a lawyer, but that is the intent of the Creative Commons Licenses.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 06:42:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I understood from the TechTalk was that there would be two separate rights, copyright and the "broadcast"-right. These could be in conflict, but then the lawyers would have to fight it out. So have fun suing Bertelsmann AG.

I also understood that a similar right for TV broadcasts already exists in some European countries. Basically this  would be to protect pay-TV and cable companies from people distributing or broadcasting the decrypted signals.

by JeroenMostert on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 08:03:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If this gets to be an issue, they will just have to add an explicit set of broadcast licensing options to the Creative Commons licenses. It should still be possible to license your CC content in such a way that it is illegal for a broadcaster to sue other people over your content if that is not what you intend when you license it to them. They cannot broadcast your content without a[n implicit] license anyway.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 08:21:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that diaries from non-gnomes should not be promoted to the front page until they have reached critical mass - whatever that might be.

Promotion removes visibility from the recommends and recent lists. If the front page is active, as today, the promoted diary quickly scrolls down to invisibility.

IMO Bruno-ken's diary is very interesting and worthy of our attention. Its promotion may lessen its impact.

As a general rule regarding critical mass, I would say that at least 10 comments each from different posters should be required before promotion.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 06:31:47 AM EST
I personally don't look a the front page, just the recommended diary list.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 06:33:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the User Interface Preferences there is an option called "Start Page", with the options: Front Page, Everything, Debates, Diaries, News. This determines what you see when you visit the top-level eurotrib page (or the "Home" tab at the top of the page"). Is it possible to add  an option that will display the top 10 recommended diaries? Also, shouldn't those options be available as a pull-down menu from a tab at the rop of the page?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 06:39:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We have to remember the occasional or new visitors who will invariably have default settings. In the interests of long-term site growth (getting new members), the default set is the one to consider in presenting content.

I realise that the splash page is important if people are accessing the www.eurotrib.com link from somewhere else, and thus what is first seen. That is one of the jobs of the gnomes, and there are sometimes dry diary spells that cause a scramble for front-paging anything that moves. During the summer we even had Bob doing the Lazurus act and resurrrecting all kinds of diaries from oblivion.

I agree it is hard to find a balance, and that user settings are there to handle things for regular contributors. But it is not just the front page that drives membership (though that works for drive-bys). What is more important is the variety and depth of the recommended, as you rightly point out. The recommends are 'peer-reviewed' and thus better express the interests of the whole community, not just the gnomes.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:08:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm asking for new options, not for a change in the defaults.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and is it possible to front-page a diary and put it back in the diaries without changing the datestamp? I want to know when the diary was first written, not when it was last de-frontpaged.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:20:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think putting it back in the diaries is needed now? Or is it?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:28:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure I understand.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:30:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now that I think of it, I don't recall the exact reason for returning diaries from the front-page, but I thought it was so they would live in the diaries list for a while longer.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:35:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Basically, once a diary drops below the top 10 stories on the front page, it becomes effectively invisible as it is not on the recommended diary list or on the recent diaries list (which you can set to display up to 50 diaries).

So it is a basic courtesy that when a diary slips to #11 on the front page, it is returned to the recent diaries list where it can continue to be visible.

If it were possible to tweak scoop so that a diary didn't have to disappear from the recent diaries list in order to appear on the front page, that would be great. The fact that moving it changes the timestamp is mildly annoyin, especially when the date the diary was written is relevant to the content.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:39:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just look at the URL: www.eurotrib.com/story/YYYY/MM/DD/random/numbers
You can at least tell the day it was posted (California date)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 09:01:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I know that. But when the site displays title by author on wrong date and time it's little consolation that the URL is actually meaningful.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 09:02:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman has now tweaked the software, so I suppose I'm wasting my time pointing this out:

the reason for the timestamp change (which was not obligatory, it's just a box to check) was that it popped the un-frontpaged diary back up to the top of the Recent Diaries list, (instead of it finding itself way down the list because of its original date). Which corresponded to the goal of giving the diary a new lease of life, and seemed to be a courtesy to the writer rather than what you suggest.

I seem to recall it was discussed at the time the unfrontpaging of diaries was mooted as a useful/necessary thing to do, and that whataboutbob offered the solution of changing timestamp and marking the title with asterisks so it was visibly a "returned" diary, and that he was generally thanked for it.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:05:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, but I have been confused by the wrong timestamp on more than one occasion when perusing the archives.

Now that thanks to Colman's tweak the diary stays on the recent and recommended diaries list, there should be no need to change the timestamp, except possibly to "bump up" things on the front page.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:10:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's in the guts of Scoop I'm afraid and beyond my current abilities!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:23:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good thing you just raised $800 in user donations to help fund the site.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:24:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does it smell good when you stir it, Mig?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:08:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, actually...
  1. If I am to avoid getting "warnings" from Jerome in the future, I would appreciate it if he spelled out exactly what I am to avoid and why. Otherwise, what's nect? A "troll" rating for ignoring a previous "warning"?
  2. I am now officially on the "been suckered" column regarding my donation.


Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:12:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say your comment was unhelpfully snarky, I'd say J's rating was unhelpfully reactive and I'd say that afew's was also unhelpfully snarky. I really am going to get Fran to run that course for destressing cranky bloggers. So why doesn't everyone take a deep breath and put this aside for a reasoned rather than emotional discussion? No really, I insist.

In the meantime, if you're feeling suckered I can refund your donation: it was, however, very clearly collected without any guarantees about future changes.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:21:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, I'm not the only one:
As a financial contributor to ET? I mostly see myself as a sucker...


Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:35:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll let Metatone speak to that, but I think that was mostly snark.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:38:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is merely pointing out the lack of transparency in the dealings of the gnomes when contrasted with the openness of the donors.

I did NOT contribute for that very reason - IMO a large number of questions were asked about the operation of the site which went unanswered. Perhaps the answers were given in private emails?

TBG did some work in costing a possible relocation to Europe, and many others felt that, if it were possible, a relocation to Europe would be a good thing (for many different reasons).

So it is not a question of 'stirring it', me duck, it is simply questioning the current opacity of the administration.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:28:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would have been better if he had written a diary or comment explaining his problem rather than a snarky comment that was pretty much guaranteed to tick people off - I rather imagine he was too busy or distracted to do so. The same applies to Jérôme and afew.

Now, can we move this fight somewhere else? Like a diary enumerating your concerns maybe?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:37:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman, rg has published seven diaries with dozens of comments each where the issues have been discussed ad nauseam meam.

I have only one concern: are we stakeholders or a revenue source? And there's only one person who can answer that question. It all follows from there.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:45:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The gnomes are not the administration. There's a level slip involved there.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:37:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whoa there, everyone!

Let's put this "gnomes v. us" to rest.

I did not even make a donation.  

I thought it was made clear that the donations were to cover the cost of the server fees.  If you gave money to do that, I don't think you can claim to have been "suckered" unless you know something I don't.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 11:22:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, there is a set of private e-mails which explain the framework in which the site is (supposed to be) run. I am going to interpret Jerome's "warning" as a warning not to discuss them.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 05:01:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
$800 is nothing, and it was made clear that it was to pay for the servers only. I'm pretty sure that nothing else was promised in the deal.

This, however, was a scam perpetrated by the original developer of scoop:

In June 2002 Rusty suggested that he might be forced to sell or shut down Kuro5hin due to lack of funds, and he solicited donations to support the site. In response, readers gave more than $37,000 in donations and other support in less than a week. Shortly thereafter Rusty announced plans to create a non-profit organization known as the Collaborative Media Foundation (CMF) to manage K5.[3] Since then, some users have been critical of a perceived lack of active management and functional improvements to the site. As of 2006, the CMF is not legally incorporated.

Basically, Rusty cashed in. This was worth complaining about, the donations money here is not.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 02:09:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would like to have €1 for each time Colman replies to some query about software features with "I don't have the required level of access to do that". Not "that's not a good idea" or "that's too hard to do" or "I don't have time now" but "I'd have to harass someone else".

I have seen none of the concerns expressed by people over the past month and a half addressed in any meaningful way. There was, in fact, no "deal", however in light of the fact that Booman's funding ideas went like lead balloons and Colman raised 1 year's worth of server costs in a week on his own initiative, you would expect some responsiveness from Booman and Jerome. That one month later the bottleneck to get stuff done is still that Colman has to convince Booman to convince his programmer to implement whatever, is a little annoying.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 05:08:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it sounds like what the site really needs is a scoop developer with an interest in the site.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sat Oct 21st, 2006 at 04:59:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are skilled people with an interest in the site, and whom Jerome trusts. What the site needs is server-side administrator access for these people.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 21st, 2006 at 06:39:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How about that? Both FP and in rec list. Not a problem given our current story rate.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:20:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not in my rec list

<goes to study own user settings grumpily>

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:24:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you mean the box on the right-hand side?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:28:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. The diary disappeared from my rec and recent lists when it was FPed.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:40:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And now? It's just I'm staring at it on my rec list...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:44:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It just returned miraculously to both rec and recent ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:46:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman does work miracles.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not enough of them, obviously.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:21:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But let's now return to the subject of the diary and discuss this matter elsewhere. (Sorry Bruno-ken for intruding in this way)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:43:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No worries.  Actually, there were some things in that sub-thread that I had been curious about in the past as well.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 11:13:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about that? Both FP and in rec list.

And now lots of comments!  (^_-)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 11:12:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do my best as a meme-monger :-)

BTW I can send that SOS pdf we discussed over to you now. However it is a couple of megs. Is that OK? If not, can you use zip, stuffit or UnRar?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 11:31:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, great.  If it's just a couple of megs, you can send it as is.  Last I checked I still have about 2 GB of space left in my email account.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 11:45:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's like we're back to the days of radio pre-1950.

The internet will be regulated, sooner or later. We're simply not vigilant or savvy enough en masse to prevent it.

My friend who has long worked for internet pioneers such as Bolt, Beranek & Newman (and all the companies that boguth such "pipe-layers" afterwards, Q-West, etc.) has come across so many frightening white papers in the past that explicitly project authoritarian "control" over the internet.

In the US, the blogs are our last independent media sites other than one radio station in San Francisco.

by Upstate NY on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:55:27 AM EST
Pacifica is more than one radio station in San Francisco.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 11:05:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, I realize that. It all comes out of there, however.
by Upstate NY on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 11:58:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not even a small fraction of the programming comes out of KPFA, most is local to any the 5 Pacifica stations. And Democracy Now is done out of NYC.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 03:27:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know Goodman does it out of NY but she always tags her show out of Pacifica. I guess I'm surprised that it's more a network than a station.
by Upstate NY on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 07:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What radio station in San Francisco?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 11:06:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I presume it's KPFA from Berkeley, but I could be wrong.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 11:07:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's funny about all this is that people actually think that they have some degree of the Internet AS IT IS RIGHT NOW. The fact is that every single message passes through a medium that is controlled by some sort of corporate entity: Your ISP, the local network, the backbone, the name servers, etc. And those corporations operate under the thumb of the various intelligence agencies, who can either ask nicely for information or simply take it by putting systems into the backbone.

Meanwhile, the good old airwaves, which really are "free," are practically ignored.

My prediction is that the Internet will soon have the same look and feel as your cell phone: Pay a big connection fee, then pay some more for content, then pay some more for the privilege of getting advertisements.

Pirate wideband broadcast radio is the answer; people just haven't figured it out yet.

by asdf on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 at 10:35:37 PM EST
Pirate wideband broadcast radio is the answer; people just haven't figured it out yet.

I other words, WiMax.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Oct 21st, 2006 at 04:30:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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