The American Ideology

by redstar
Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 12:23:39 PM EST

Preface.

A couple of weeks back, Jérôme did a couple of diaries on Kos, putative pulse of the on-line American progressive community, which dealt with poverty issues. The first was on folks going hungry in New York City, which I caught too late to commentate, but in reading the comments by supposedly left-wing commentators, I was taken aback by those who thought Jérôme's desire to highlight a poverty issue in the US, instead of positives about the US or similar negatives in France (assuming they exist in any substantial way) was galling.

But this was nothing compared to the absolute shitstorm Jérôme kicked up when he wrote an excellent polemical piece on the role of government and the proper place of charity. A large proportion of the comments missed his point entirely, but the insistence by many putatively left commentators on the limited role of government to better people's lives, and the constant subtext that giving to charity was what made people good, while taxes, well, not so much, was almost as surprising to me as the frankly quite vituperative and personal response many felt the need to give Jérôme.

(I initially thought better of writing such an Amero-centric diary or series of diaries, but was invited by Jérôme, so there you are...)


In response to this latter diary, there was a fairly wide-ranging discussion here in the comments section of how it could be that Americans, thinking themselves so progressive and liberal, could miss his point so thoroughly. Bernard Chazelle summed it up nicely
What struck me in the dKos comments (besides the insults, which have the redeeming value of being entertaining) is the lack of any intellectual frame of reference in the American left (ok, I generalize).
Jerome's point was not about morality (who's a good guy, who's a jerk?) but about the meaning of government.

Libertarians or paleorepubs like Bill Buckley would disagree with his view, but (as much as I hate to say it) they would do so from a reasoned perspective.
The American right has intellectual coherence (at least the old kind). But the so-called left is mental jello.

It's impossible to argue, agree, or disagree because there's nothing to argue, agree, or disagree about. There is no there there among the American left.
Left of course means left of Ann Coulter, which is a wide open space. But still...

Liberals (in the American sense) try to be good, kind, reasonable, tolerant, tactical, and determined. That's the full extent of their ideology. It's a set of attitudes: it's not a set of beliefs.

There was this saying in France when I grew up: France has the dumbest political right wing in the world. I fear America has the dumbest political left in the world.  

This got me to thinking about the whys and the wherefores of his last phrase, and quite frankly, re-inforcing my belief that Jérôme is fundamentally correct when he wonders aloud whether most Americans are simply more conservative than the rest of the Western world, a diary which also provoked a fair amount of controversy over in putatively left Kos-land.

The thing is, American liberals tend to have an image of their ideological place which is at odds with reality, and whenever this is pointed out, they become quite defensive.

A Borrowed Introduction.

Now, people have always constructed myths about themselves, about what they are and what they ought to be. They arrange their relationships to others according to their faith, their idea of normal man, et c. Inevitably, these creative ideas, these myths, escape the power of those who ideated them and assume a power of their own. In short order, creators bow down before that which they have created, and the more ingenuous of them attempt to wield such power over other men. Let us go forth and free mankind in all reaches of the world of their superstitions, of their myths about themselves and those dogmas and biases under whose sway they have languished for so many years. One idealist says let us lead, nay, forcibly require, revolts against such myths, preferably in other lands (with the perverse, if by design, effect of reinforcing those in our own). Another counsels that we go forth and teach such superstitious man to exchange his myths about himself and his community for those of the essence of what mankind, our mankind, "truly" is. Finally a third simply says let's knock them senseless until those myths have taken their leave of them. In this way, existing reality collapses, and a new reality takes its place.

These innocent and childish fantasies are essentially the animating kernel of Anglo-American foreign policy today, one to which vast majorities of the US public subscribed before the dying and the cost got too close to home. They were not received by an American public with horror and awe, even though the bloody consequences and criminal ruthlessness of it were both advertised (shock and awe) and on display (if but fleetingly, and in a far-off sense of otherworldliness; after all, these superstitious men live in the Antipodes).

Rather, they were welcomed by somewhere between two-thirds and three-quarters of all Americans. Not all of them were, needless to say, "Bushbots," at least not then, and in fact, a goodly amount of so-called "liberals" also subscribed to the idea of invading Iraq, including most of their Senators and many of their Representatives. "Muscular liberalism" isn't simply a meaningless phrase after all.

Similarly, these myths are also the driving force behind Anglo-American trade and economic policy, which seeks to impose a neo-liberal vision of economic relationships, both at home and abroad, which do violence to workers in both North and South. All for the better, we are told by middle-class American apologists for trade deals which undercut peasants in the South and, when those peasants inevitably migrate North to feed their families, undercut workers in the North. Fetch me my "World Is Flat" book by Tom Friedman, there's got to be a chapter on why this is good for everybody".

Following sections will discuss some of the underpinnings which form the basis for common ideological threads of those who take themselves, and are taken, as wolves, but in truth are merely bleating sheep. It will show that such bleating is simply an expression of the conceptions the American middle-class has about itself; how those vitriol of such commentators when called upon such bleatings serve only to mirror the wretchedness of the condition of solidarity, of liberty, and egalitarianism in America today, the almost perfect expression of the values of its middle-class.  

These values are represented by five main mythical themes;

  1. Americans are men and women of the world; their ancestors came from far away, and while they may not know much about that place anymore, they're certainly proud of it. They are above all not the insular people, sheltered from the first-hand ravages of war and conflict; this possesses them of a singular belief in their exceptionalism and, importantly, an unflagging idealism that this exceptionalism not only should be exported abroad, but can be. This is the "Etâts-unis-providence" myth;

  2. In direct contradiction to myth one (with the conjunction of the two myths producing often disastrous results), Americans are a people of self-made men; they pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and this is the secret to their (increasingly equally mythical) superior economic performance. This is the "Rugged individual" myth.

  3. America the rugged land was settled by hardy pioneers who tamed not only a hostile terrain, but hostile Native peoples as well. And while polite company apologizes for those long-ago wrongs done unto First Nations, and modified its own Thanksgiving mythology surrounding those events, this doesn't stop them from continuing to steal First Nations' money. Of course, overcoming all those many hostile Nations arrayed against you, as you struggled to create your new, Exceptional, homeland, was a feat of heroic accomplishment. Never mind that those many hostile Nations didn't stand a chance against your technology and, above all, your numbers. This is the "America, the last Colonials in the West" myth.

  4. In a conflation of myths one, two, and three, white Americans all came from somewhere else, and their forebears endured terrible hardships and the violence of racism. But they were able to overcome such racism; look at them now! A corollary to this belief is that those who are not able to overcome extreme hardship and racism are somehow at fault for this, whether it be due to the so-called "Bell Curve" at home or those inherently violent and horribly ungrateful savages they'd gone to save abroad. This is the "I earned my stick and now I'm going to carry it" myth.

  5. Reasonable people can and often do disagree, but hey, we're all Middle Class and sharing in that prosperity, right? Well yes, provided everyone one is Middle Class and American. Consequently, one's neighbor, friend, or even family member may hold fairly backwards and un-informed opinions, back state-sponsored violence against innocents and vociferously object to even the most rudimentary elements of solidarity - no matter all of this, because they're fundamentally decent people on a personal level. There are no real enemies among "decent" people, only honest disagreements; enemies are only those whose vilification has been approved via the State Department, the state of the Union Address, and the Corporate Media. And of course, "decent" people cannot possibly work against and want to undermine my interest or be conservative. By extension, all "decent" people are at worst moderate, if not liberal or even progressive. This is essentially an "Ambiguous Middle Myth" which admittedly is a worldwide phenomenon, but is particularly rife in America, among its putative "liberals" and "progressives".

Once upon a time a valiant man had the idea that men were drowned in water only because they were possessed with the idea of gravity. If they were to knock this notion out of their heads, say by stating it to be a superstition or a religious concept, they would be sublimely protected against any danger from water. His whole life long he fought against the illusion of gravity, of whose harmful results all statistics brought him new and manifold evidence. This valiant fellow was the archtype of our American neo-liberal economists, and of our American neo-colonial foreign policy elite, both expressions of the aspirations and ideals not just of its economic elite, but also the middle class who both work for and strive to be like them.

To follow:

  1. Etâts-unis-providence
  2. America, the Rugged Individual
  3. America, the last Colonials in the West
  4. Big-Stick America
  5. Left America, home of the Ambiguous Middle.
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Let's Go Red Wings!
by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 12:26:06 PM EST
Are yo trying to steal my myth meme?? :) je je j

Love it.. though I doubt some of the mythas are otre than standard narratives.. not so deeply rooted and internalized as an styructural myth..

But taken taken together , your 5 myths do give a picture of a gerenral narrative that ina certain sense could be structural... let's say that each one of them is not really deeply beleived or held my most american.. but a geenral flavour ..a  general idea behind these narratives are indeed held...

So I really love it..

Ragarding the reasons aobut why they exist but no other narratives appear or why they are like silenced.. or putting the question in other words, why USA is so far to the right on economic issues and the "foreign" european or latin american narrative does not appear. this question is not answred byt he mere presence of the myths..at least I am not completely satisfied with the answer.

So their general myth-flavour is there...but I do nto see it as structural.. so it expalins the present.. but I do not think it explains the lack of change, at least in the coasts... for example San Francisco is more or less like Europe , even to left, of Europe in economic redistribution..and they also have those 5 general myths-narratives.. they know them.. and they do not quite believe it but also beleive in them softl, yadn still they changed and adopted others ...

so... why not the change iN New York iN california, Oregon,....??? Why only San Francisco and Vermont?

Great diary

A pleasure

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 06:43:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"they may not now much"

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 12:39:30 PM EST
Thanks much!

Let's Go Red Wings!
by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 12:42:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The thing is, American liberals tend to have an image of their ideological place which is at odds with reality, and whenever this is pointed out, they become quite defensive.

How, then, do you explain the relative positions of ETers and Kossacks on the Political Compass?


Colman ventured an explanation in this thread:

Because the poll measures attitudes to problems rather than solutions? dKos seems to our right on solutions - take the freedom/fairness of contracts. The conventional wisdom is that Europe's "lack of freedom" hurts the poor. So you can both believe the poor need help and be against laws that restrict employer's "freedom". They want broadly the same outcomes as us, they just don't admit our solutions as possible answers because the debate in the US is so cast in terms of freedom being paramount.


Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 12:51:19 PM EST
Well, partially it is a test to measure the US spectrum (when you examine the questions they come from various US hot button issues) and so the spread is not as informative as it looks.

But, I was going to instead raise a similar question in a different way.

Izzy is largely to the left of me and certainly quite far to the left of Jerome.

Mayhaps there is some overgeneralising going on.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 01:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because when the masses of people in the lower left corner try to speak they cast us as extremists.

ManfromMiddletown iznogood the dangerous extremist that I am believing it's inappropriate to give the voices of Wall Street the stage all to their own.

Having been so succesful in Latin America the boys from Chicago want to bring the game home.  What do you suppose a collapse of the US dollar equal to what happened with the Argentine peso in 1999 would look like?

 

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 01:56:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, I liked your diary a lot, it deserved the rec it got, but of course, you can't be a lefty and offer criticism of lionized Democrats. You can criticize from the right, or from the center, but from the left? Verboten. Jerome gets it a bit whenever he branches out into social commentary. MSOC gets it bigtime, now Sirota too.

All these defenses of Pelosi's leadership over there are looking more and more ironic given the stance on the war of her hand-picked Intel guy, too. But like I said before, it's all party hackery. And if it doesn't transcend that, it will end up being, simply, a big mydd.com. Organizational tool for the party, yes, but independent, credible media vehicle for the left? Not a chance.

Something tells me this isn't exactly the goal, however.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 06:49:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not a big sample, but there it is:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/12/5/8134/71011

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 02:08:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now what would be really cool would be for Colman to get the (freely available) code from here and install it on the machine that runs the wiki...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 02:13:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome look at this.

Apparently my critque of Robert Rubin's Neo-liberal economic policies was not alone.  Rubin was grilled by the freshman representatives.

I was sort of suprised when I  got an "explanatory" email that had been written by a Pelosi staffer.

These last two days have been hell for me, because I thought that my country was consigned to be  a willing victim of neo-liberal policies.

The majority of the people in my country don't want more of these failed policies, but when we speak.  Even at "progessive websites" we get shouted down. But now the elected representatives of the people shouted back.  Follow the link, the quote from the meeting are priceless.

I'm a happy man, Jerome.

The silent majority will no linger be silenced.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 02:47:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And, as I wrote in another thread, my most recommended diaries on dKos (just like youes this time) were also those that were the most violently criticized - so there clearly is frustration and a big, ignored, constituency which is begging for voices to speak for it.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 04:23:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, are you going to write a retort to your critics on DKos?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 04:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I sort of feel like just staying away, but it's when people are silent that the minority gets to present itself as the majority.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 06:18:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru is right -- this is a perfect time to diary this on dKos. Everyone over there has been primed to be anti-DLC; now's your chance to educate them on why  neo-liberalism is so dangerous.
by Matt in NYC on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know.

I'm tired, and I'm not sure I want to deal with the nitpicking and the stress that I feel that comes with being the person to do that.

I'm fairly certain that if I post the diary I want I will be shown the door.  I've always tried to keep a comfortable distance between my bloglife, and my real life.  I'm not sure I want one to bleed into the other.  I'm honestly concerned what the implications for my real life are if my blog life bleeds through.

And honestly I have other things I should really be working on.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 11:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm fairly certain that if I post the diary I want I will be shown the door.

So post it and test your hypothesis. You'll always be welcome here ;-)

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:27:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Shown the door by who? us? unless you're going to suggest that the best thing to happen is a thousand year american  reich, compulsory genetic testing with sterilisation of the genetically impure, that's extremely unlikely (and even then you'd at least be listened to first)

If youre worried about real life then there are always other ways. My email address is always a handy repository for information that needs scrubbing of information. (in fact theres at least one person whose website details lead entirely back to me to cover their traces from their employers, and I do have to turn down the occasional tv or radio appearence on their behalf)  I know that I am not the only person on this board who would be willing to post things up here on your behalf, if you wish to  get things out here.

Give a politician an inch, and he'll think he's a ruler

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:46:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ceebs

that was a response to an ealier comment.

and it's not about ET, it's about Daily Kos.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:15:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes having replied I didn't read back down the chain till afterwards.

Hiwever the same applies there, If you want stuff posting and don't think fancy the comeback, I'm equally willing

Give a politician an inch, and he'll think he's a ruler

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 07:22:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Colman pretty much nails it.

The solutions side of the equation is far more important than the ability to admit common perspective on the nature of the problem. And on the solutions part of the equation, there are incredible ideological blinders on the other side of the Atlantic, even among folks who will describe themselves, as this test demonstrates, as "left" on economics.

Not all folks, mind you, but many, perhaps most, on kos even, will use the word "socialism" very derisively. This is telling for me. Or the thought that government is part of the problem, and certainly not to be relied upon as part of the solution. The ideological depth of Reagan's conservatism reaches quite deep, even into the lefter roots of the American tree.

I will add that it is easy to maintain one's own ideological blinders from the confort of one's own relative affluence, which I think it is safe to say we can ascribe to the median American, especially relative to a world where such solutions have been and/or are far more pressing. When do you get an American democrat up in arms? When the interests of the middle class are seen as threatened.

This is why the most popular economic analyses in America revolve around housing values, why the delocalization debate revolves around professional jobs primarily, and why folks start worrying about foreign adventurism when the fiscal impact becomes more and more acute, and really not before.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 02:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When do you get an American democrat up in arms? When the interests of the middle class are seen as threatened.
I think this is true everywhere - the question is, then, whether and why the middle class in Europe has different interests than in the US.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 02:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it goes farther than this. Consideration of the interests of working-class and poor Americans has effectively been marginalized, and this appears to be by design. The Democratic party appears more and more to solely represent the interest of the middle classes which vote for it, and the more altruistic elements of the economic elite, which finance it, and because of its monopoly on the ideological space to the left of Attila, it can afford to completely ignore the more and more marginalized (and increasingly foreign, ie without civic rights) underclass.

In most of Europe, there is some of this going on, but most of the social welfare apparatus is designed to promote, or be an expression of, cross-class solidarity, and most political movements from social democrats leftward take very seriously the fact that this is the lynchpin of not just their own political power, but also the common and cohesive good. In the US, this is not at all the case, neither for the country at large nor for the Demoratic party in particular.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 03:01:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The process of abandonment of the working class is quite advanced in the UK, just look at the current state of the Labour Party, which under New Labour finds itself to the right of the Liberal Democrats.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 04:15:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Uk excepted of course, though in my shorthand, England really isn't part of Europe.

Let's Go Red Wings!
by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 05:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Uk excepted of course, though in my shorthand, England really isn't part of Europe.

I was reading a piece that criticized Scots nationalism
as a cancer of state intervention on the virtous capitalism of the British isles.  I really question whether Scotland isn't more of Europe than Britain in this.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 08:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a ditty, think it's Billy Bragg, where one of the lines describes the UK as "an economic union that's passed it's sell-by date".

That's the image I have. Pity more Scots don't share that sentiment.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:09:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But they do.

The SNP is on track to be the larget group in the Scottish parliament, and SNP leader Alex Salmonds has promised to hold a referendum on Scottish independence if elected.

London's response is uncertain.  The election will come but two days after the 300 anniversary of the Act of Union.

While for the UK of nearly 60 millions North Sea oil is roughly equivalent to consumption, for an independent Scotland of 5 million North Sea oil is a significant source of export earnings.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 10:24:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bah, North Sea Oil and Gas has peaked. England guzzled it all and now Scotland gets the post-peak tail end of it.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:26:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bah, North Sea Oil and Gas has peaked. England guzzled it all and now Scotland gets the post-peak tail end of it.

If the British government knew those oil fields were in Scottish water, yet still assigned contracts and sent the profits to London doesn't that suggest that the Scot might be owed something.  

I think that that McCrone report confirms Scottish paranoia that the English are out to take their land and money, and in the coming elections I think that the SNP stands a very strong chance of winning a majority in the Scottish Parliament.

And if they win, Salmond will call for an indepenedence referendum.  And I think that this serves to confirm that the negative comments of the American consul in Edinburgh resulted from the fear that a SNP led government might try to nationalize the oil fields or at the least review contracts.

Salmond has been making trips to Norway, and as we know Statoil is a state owned company.

This should be fun.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:13:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Looks to me like that oil is mostly to the northeast of Scotland. I'd say that the Highlands should declare independence from the too-English-like Border regions. Edinburgh is practically London anyway.
by asdf on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:35:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Best man at my wedding is a Danish diplomat, and steeped in all the arcane Danish historical stuff, which he enjoys talking about.

Seems to me I recall something of a claim Denmark still has on either the Orkneys, the Shetlands, or both, a claim they have tried to settle even as recently as around '14-'18 or so.

Wonder what sort of spanner that'd put in the works.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:58:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia has a list of territorial disputes, and Denmark is only involved in one
Rockall is a small rocky islet in the North Atlantic, in the exclusive economic zone (EEZ) of the United Kingdom. It is probably better known as one of the Sea Areas named in the Shipping Forecast broadcast on BBC Radio 4. The United Kingdom's title to Rockall is accepted by its neighbours. In 1997, the UK abandoned any claim to an extended EEZ around and beyond it. The remaining issue is that the status of the continental shelf rights of surrounding ocean floor is disputed with the United Kingdom by the Republic of Ireland, Denmark (for the Faroe Islands), and Iceland. These are the exclusive rights to exploit any resources on or under the ocean floor (oil, natural gas, etc.) and should not be confused with the EEZ, as continental shelf rights do not carry any privileges with regard to fisheries.


Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:05:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Back 'round about 1000 the Orkneys became part of Norway by right of conquest: King Harold stole it from the Vikings who had stole it from the Picts who had stole from somebody else.  In the Union of the Three Crowns the Danes  got the Orkneys as well.  In 1469 the Orkneys were the collateral for 8,000 of a 60,000 guilder dowry for Princess Margaret when she married the heir to the Scottish throne.  

The actual money was never paid so the heir foreclosed.

Madness takes its toll. Have exact change ready

by ATinNM on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 08:03:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...England really isn't part of Europe.

That's the way it looks today, eh? But historically indefensible, and a tragedy - mutually weakening - both for the UK real-left (or what's left of it) and the European real-left (ditto). Our sensibilities, aspirations and history are so close, so intertwined -and at a level far deeper than Blair's current Thatcher-derived imperial protraction poodlism, "they" (UK) are part and parcel of - and need - "us" as much as "we" need - and are part and parcel of - "them".

For example, going back to before the Blairites' despicable bags-and-baggage takeover of the Labour Party complete with its ideals, history and traditions - the great Jarrow March, anyone?

Now compare with Italy's still-iconic painting of the advance of the "Fourth Estate" by Pelizza da Volpedo (1901) - we imagined it, they did it!

.. and at this point, who can possibly deny we all belong to the same ... historical flow/ideal entity/cultural-historical-civilizational whatsit???  

....

(Re Jarrow and how the heck an Italian can feel so strongly about "their" great March: I lived for a while in the UK's North-East, have great memories and still have close friends there in the "former" mining district.... so have deep enough ties for great respect and deep sentiment)


"Ignoring moralities is always undesirable, but doing so systematically is really worrisome." Mohammed Khatami

by eternalcityblues (parvati_roma aaaat libero.it) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 07:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Becuase European bankers have unions?

Seriously, I think that in terms of the three classes, American politics is built upon a coalition of the middle and upper classes, while Europe has the middle in coalition with the working class.

Remember too that American democracy proceded American industrialization.  In countries where that is true the party system often breaks on cleavages other than class.  Which has been the case with the US.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 03:59:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been reading Postwar by Tony Judt and if there is anything I've learned it's that Europe has the exact same thing going. And economic reasons are right up there as the things people care about. :) Granted I've only gotten to the 1980s so maybe things are different now...

We also have to remember that a majority of Americans identify as "middle class" -- even families making less than $25,000 a year will usually say "middle class" if asked because no one wants to be "low class." That leads to people supporting policies that really only help wealthier people (e.g. estate tax reductions) that have absolutely no bearing on them because it's portrayed as something that hurts "middle class families".

As an aside, the funny thing about the word "socialism" is that in almost every western nation, the "center" parties (or parties that have had to rule from the center) co-opted many socialistic policies. Now, many of these policies are just the way things are -- we just don't always call them 'socialism' --- and almost no one will touch them regardless of party. Look what happened when the republicans tried to "privatize" social security. :)

by R343L (reverse qw/ten.cinos@l343r/) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 04:16:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I had a lot of trouble with that poll, and I don't think it's measuring things very well. It's not really separating the populations out very well--they're both just clustered in a big lump. If the poll were written correctly there would be multiple clumps: "Marxist," or "feminist," or "union," or "Blairite," or "Green," or "Democrat." It's not differentiating the groups at all.
by asdf on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 08:09:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why would there have to be well-defined clumps?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:28:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
putative pulse of the on-line American progressive community

Who created this myth? dKos is specifically about getting the democrats into power and staying there at all costs. That places the framework for debate into the zero-sum, "we have to win today or the world ends tomorrow" devolved political culture of America. To meet your "opponents" on fair, neutral territory is to have them eviscerate you through unfair means. That mentality doesn't end when engaging with people who are more like you politically than not. Progressive politics are a distant second at best.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 01:14:51 PM EST
aye. for dailykos, progressive or liberal politics (or, gasp! theory) is a means to an end. They assume that because, for instance, most Americans like the idea of a higher minimum wage, this is a good thing for candidates to advocate.

Of course, not every poster has that attitude, but kos' comment that he's not "really that interested in blogging about policy" is quite explicit and the subseqeuent statements show how much he sees policy as subordinate to "winning." And since he's in charge (as much as anyone is), the site's attitude does lean that way.

by R343L (reverse qw/ten.cinos@l343r/) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 01:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Devilstower, who has recently been promoted to front pager over on dKos has told me that he was pleasantly surprised by how much support there was behind the scenes for the "policy communities". The next version of dKos is supposed to encourage that in some way (but I have no idea how or what).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 02:17:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just from the various diarists who regular post on a single (or a few related) policy areas, it's clear that people want to talk about it. Unfortunately, for people like me who visit maybe once a day, there is a lot of emphasis on the pragmatics of politics which is a little boring. Luckily I usually find one interesting policy related post each visit, which is the only reason to come back. So, good to hear there is a some support to get more going. :)
by R343L (reverse qw/ten.cinos@l343r/) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 03:19:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Weak and pathetic as that pulse may be, it's the only 100,000+ site that has much discussion of policy issues from a more or less progressive point of view. Which is why I continue to visit dKos more than any other U.S.-based site. Sadly, it's (about) all we've got.
by Matt in NYC on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:18:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Its goals and kos' somewhat authoritarian nature skew the nature of the site. It is not representative of progressive America.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 10:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is representative of progressive America? And how big is "progressive America"? 5, 10% of the population?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:29:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Its goals and kos' somewhat authoritarian nature skew the nature of the site. It is not representative of progressive America.

I think it's probably very representative of progressive America, authoritarianism and all.

I've already suggested that the underlying US myth is  domination at almost any price.

It's most obvious and naked on the Right. But the Left is hardly immune. A site devoted entirely to getting into power, and worrying about policy later, fits into the pattern very neatly.

It's been interesting watching Sirota getting torn apart for suggesting that Obama isn't the last best hope. That argument seems to have been based on electability vs policy - the latter not being an Obama strong point.

However - I don't think Kos is entirely policy averse, no matter what he says. He'd be unlikely to support Lieberman for 2008, nor any of the other more business-friendly and centre-leaning Dems.

The problem is that there's a distinction between progressive and populist policies in the US. It's an area that hasn't been picked over properly yet, possibly because the Dems have spent the last five years almost completely on the defensive.

Or perhaps they've been on the defensive because they haven't evolved a strong pro-labour narrative and have been too busy watching the hand with the 'War on Trrra'  glove waving in their faces.

If Dem freshmen gave Rubin a good kicking, that's a good sign. But they need someone or something to tie them together into a movement. Otherwise it's just random ideological mortar fire, rather than a concentrated campaign.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 08:11:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's been interesting watching Sirota getting torn apart for suggesting that Obama isn't the last best hope.

That has been obvious since Obama's keynote address at the Democratic Nomination Convention in 2004.

That argument seems to have been based on electability vs policy

Which was all that the 2004 Democratic primary was about. "You can't elect the unelectable", "unelectability" being awarded by the press ahead of the election, prejudging the outcome, and everyone swallowing it.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 08:19:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll only say this one more time. Kos runs dkos. His biases, attitudes, views, and ego have formed the site. Dkos is not an organic, democratically grown site, therefore it cannot be representative of a broader community.

I've already suggested that the underlying US myth is domination at almost any price.

At the federal level, absolutely. Among citizens, no. The gulf between the public and the government is very large. The situation in the UK isn't particularly different.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:47:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a good book out about the American Creed and how our national mythology contrasts with our real history. Here is a link to the publisher's page:

http://www.press.uillinois.edu/f04/hughes.html

(The page explains what the myths are, the book gives the historical examples.)

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 02:00:36 PM EST
The FT printed an opinion piece from Robert Kagan (the author of Paradise and Power: America and Europe in the New World Order and, more recently, of Dangerous Nation, generally seen as a neocon, I think, but one of the more thoughtful ones):


How the US distorts its self-image

It is astonishing how little Americans understand their own nation. Recently, the president of the Council on Foreign Relations, a man long on intellect and government experience, opined that the Iraq war has generated so much controversy because it is such an aberration: "The emphasis on promotion of democracy, the emphasis on regime change, the war of choice in Iraq - all of these are departures from the traditional approach."

Many Europeans would certainly like to believe that Iraq was the product of aberrant "neo-conservative" ideas about foreign policy and that a traditional America lies just around the corner. Many Americans would like to believe this, too. We prefer to see ourselves as a peace-loving, introspective lot, a nation born in innocence and historically never choosing war but compelled to war by others.

This self-image is at odds with reality, however. Americans have gone to war frequently in their history, rarely out of genuine necessity. Since the cold war, America has launched more military interventions than all other great powers combined. The interventions in Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia and Kosovo were wars of choice, waged for moral and humanitarian ends, not strategic or economic necessity, just as realist critics protested at the time. Even the first Gulf war in 1991 was a war of choice, fought not for oil but to defend the principles of a "new world order" in which aggression could not go unpunished. The US might have drawn the line at Saudi Arabia, as Colin Powell, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, proposed.

(...)

Americans, in fact, have always defined their interests broadly to include the defence and promotion of the "universal" principles of liberalism and democracy enunciated in the Declaration of Independence. "The cause of America is the cause of all mankind," Benjamin Franklin declared at the time of the American revolution, and as William Appleman Williams once commented, Americans believe their nation "has meaning . . . only as it realises natural right and reason throughout the universe".

This is the real "traditional approach": the conviction that American power and influence can and should serve the interests of humanity. It is what makes the US, in Bill Clinton's words, the "indispensable na tion", or as Dean Acheson colourfully put it six decades ago, "the locomotive at the head of mankind". Americans do pursue their selfish interests and ambitions, sometimes brutally, as other nations have throughout history. Nor are they innocent of hypocrisy, masking selfishness behind claims of virtue. But Americans have always had this unique spur to global involvement, an ideological righteousness that inclines them to meddle in the affairs of others, to seek change, to insist on imposing their avowed "universal principles" usually through peaceful pressures but sometimes through war.

(...)

The other constant, however, has been a self-image at odds with this reality. This distorted self-image has its own noble origins, reflecting a perhaps laudable liberal discomfort with power and a sense of guilt at being perceived as a bully, even in a good cause. When things go badly, as in Iraq, the cry goes up in the land for a change. There is a yearning, even among the self-proclaimed realists, for a return to an imagined past innocence, to the mythical "traditional approach", to a virtuous time that never existed, not even at the glorious birth of the republic.

This is escapism, not realism. True realism would recognise America for what it is, an ambitious, ideological, revolutionary nation with a belief in its own world-transforming powers and a historical record of enough success to sustain that belief.

So Kagan (and I) would agree with your characterisation of the USA as an unacknowledged interventionist (I'd disagree that it's the only one: France is essentially the same, only smaller and, these days, less powerful).

I would disagree more with you on one specific point, which is the support for free trade on dKos - quite to the contrary, I have been surprised by the level of hostility there is to free trade on dK.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 02:15:45 PM EST
I don't at all disagree about France, which after all is as exceptionalist at root as America is, though I note that the use of force is far more judicious than that used by an increasingly belligerent America. I will also opine (and this may be more controversial) that France has far more fidelity to the founding principles of the Republic, whose primacy was won through quite a lot of ongoing and often violent struggle (which did not end with the founding of the 1st Republic), than in America, where attachment to an outdated constitution is a fetish shared by all non-marginalized sides of the political spectrum and where the "revolution" was decidedly bourgeois.

I also don't disagree with the premise that there is less and less knee-jerk support for "free trade" (as defined by the WTO) in America in general, and by extension, on kos. I would say though that the opposition it runs into is primarily of the more anti-foreign sort - American workers as victim. They need protection, those American workers, usually via stop-gap policy prescriptions. Very little (if any) attention is paid to the root causes of the problem, which are fundamentally systemic and economic in nature, and the reason for this is that by paying such attention, one need avoid uncomfortable grappling with some of the nastier elements of the neo-liberalism which is basically the credo of most all Americans.

The class-interest angle of this approach (as opposed to a values approach) is most apparent in the fact that the biggest import-subsitution shitstorms get kicked up when talking about outsourcing professionals' jobs. Lip service is paid of course to manufacturing jobs lost first to Mexico then to China, but start talking about shipping off accounting or computer engineer jobs to India if you want to hear a real shitstorm start. Labor in the US, shorthand for working class people, on the other hand, is less and less nativist, more and more altermondialist as regards the issue, as evidenced by labor's participation in the Seattle protests of 1999. But this is not the sort of critique of globalism you'll hear from your average kossack, whose expression of wariness viz "free trade" is more along the nativist lines of Lou Dobbs or Pat Buchanan than the altermondialist lines of Attac or Naomi Klein.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 02:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
While I don't disagree with your main points in the second and third paragraphs, I have to disagree with the notion that the US constitution is "outmoded" and adherence to it is a "fetish". You could say I'm buying into the myths of american history, but I like the constitution. :)
by R343L (reverse qw/ten.cinos@l343r/) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 04:17:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is an inherently conservative document imho, and America will not go far, socially, without a major overhaul.

Hell, look what happened to FDR's minor initiatives.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 06:51:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
His initiatives thrived for about 50 years and have only been partially put down through a decades long, colossally expensive PR campaign conducted by the highest reaches of society. The constitution's simplicity makes it highly interpretive, as such I'm more interested in the current political and social climate and how it is formed by those with the means to do so. If I were asked how I would change things for the better, I would start by changing the control of the flow of information, not with a new constitution.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 07:51:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only those which were not overturned by a regressive Supreme Court on, you guessed it, constitutional grounds.

Let's Go Red Wings!
by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 08:51:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is conservative in that it doesn't specify a whole lot of things modern constitutions specify, as millman mentions. But is that really a problem? It has enough leeway to implement pretty much anything. Is there some specific social policy you consider unable to be implemented under the current US constitution?

There is also the fact that people will only accept so much change at a time -- as the population changes, the courts change too.

by R343L (reverse qw/ten.cinos@l343r/) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 08:10:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do think it is a problem. And while on the face of it it appears to give enough leeway to "do anything," this of course depends on an incredibly powerful and historically regressive Supreme Court, whose old fogies are appointed for life and who can, with the requisite rhetorical gymnastics, overturn what they like. FDR's PWA, NRA and AAA coming first to mind.

Try a bill nationalizing banks or insurance companies and see how far we get with the present constitution, the ruling about AAA running in this sense. Not exactly sure how we can therefore term this document giving "enough leeway to do just about anything..."

And try amending the thing. With 50 states and fractional, regionalized power bases, it's pretty hard to imagine the thing significantly amended. This is of course assuming you can get 2/3 majorities in Congress, itself no small feat.

It's great for property rights. Which is a good thing, assuming you've a fair bit of it.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't consider everything FDR did or tried to do as necessarily good, but I'd have to go research more before I could make any decent response on that point.

As far as nationalizing things, I'm not sure it couldn't get very far. States regularly have taken over power utilities for instance with nary a whisper. I.e. I don't think the constitution would outright ban it if there was a good reason to do it.

As for amending being difficult, I consider that a good thing: the crazies who periodically have power (e.g. religious right) can't permanently enshrine horribly bad things in the constitution.

by R343L (reverse qw/ten.cinos@l343r/) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:16:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd check what they did on AAA for some background. Not a constitutional lawyer, but seems to me what individual states do is covered under state constitutions unless those run counter to the federal one (with the commerce clause being a big deal).

But here, you run into problems of scale (esp. acute in things like the Great Depression). And in any event, if having a third of Americans malnourished, poorly housed and clothed were not such an event as you describe, then I'd argue that there are no such events.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:27:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I too think the US Constitution is outmoded and fetishized (the latter is also valid of the 'Founding Fathers'). No work of humans is perfect, neither is the COnsitution. That it can only be appended and not changed severely limits possibilities of improving it. And when some issue is debated, it's not 'what's right', but 'what is constitutional', limitign thinking. And what Americans do instead of changing it is reinterpretation, often with very twisted semantics.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 09:50:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I disagree on this idea that the U.S. constitution is outdated. It has two points strongly in its favor.

First, it is a pretty solid document of the Enlightenment period. There are flaws, but the rights-of-man and the reason-versus-religion dimensions are good, and the overall structure of government is good (better than the parliamentary system by a long shot, in my opinion).

Second, it is a straightforward statement of values rather than a prescription of points of law. That simplicity is a big reason why it's been stable for so long.

Under the U.S. system you can have a conservative government or a liberal government, while retaining essential human rights in either case. There was plenty of pushback to FDR's proposals, and there is plenty of pushback to GWB's proposals. I think that the Constitution is one of the strong points of the U.S. system.

by asdf on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:43:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
quasi-scientifically. Unlike the Federal Constitution, many state constitutions are easy to amend and, in many states, replace entirely. Alabama's constitution, for example, has been amended 770 times (!), and Georgia was the latest state to ratify a completely new document (in 1983).

Now, maybe I'm a little myopic (because New York has a really pathetic constitution), but I can't think of any state constitution that is demonstrably better than the stodgy old Federal Constitution. Yes, I'd like to see some changes (in particular an amendment guaranteeing freedom from religion), but all things considered, i think it's mostly evolved into a sensible, workable system.  

There was a lot about the dead-on-arrival EU constitution that I liked, mainly the parts about social and economic justice, but as a system of government it was, imho, far less democratic and progressive than what the U.S. has. And that, I'm afraid, is what would happen here as well; we'd trade a quirky but fairly workable system for a technocratic elite-dictated bureaucracy.

by Matt in NYC on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:19:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
fidelity to the founding principles of the Republic, whose primacy was won through quite a lot of ongoing and often violent struggle (which did not end with the founding of the 1st Republic)

It seems quite clear that the modern French Republic didn't really get going until the 3rd Republic, which is when universal education was consciously used to form French citizens in the Republican values.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 04:19:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
would that mean the first two were merely reactionary?

"Music is the pleasure the human mind experiences from counting without being aware that it is counting." - Leibniz .
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 07:19:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The first and second Republics were part of the Europe-wide struggle between the ancien régime and liberalism. France even went through a period of liberal parliamentary democracy, and the pendulum swung from authoritarian monarchy (or empire) to republic twice. It's only the third republic that was consciously based on civic nationalism and the instillation of republican values through education in a (relatively successful) attempt to erase the divisions within French society that played a role in the upheavals of 1789-1870.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 07:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean liberal parliamentary monarchy.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 08:06:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's only because so many Kossacks work in accounting or computer-related fields. Go off-line and you'll find that it's much more typical of Americans to worry about losing good manufacturing jobs. And with good reason: the flight of production is impoverishing and, in some cases, even depopulating vast stretches of America.

It's true that Kossacks may not totally get this yet, but fortunately most up-and-coming Congressional Democrats do.

by Matt in NYC on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The class-interest angle of this approach (as opposed to a values approach) is most apparent in the fact that the biggest import-subsitution shitstorms get kicked up when talking about outsourcing professionals' jobs. Lip service is paid of course to manufacturing jobs lost first to Mexico then to China, but start talking about shipping off accounting or computer engineer jobs to India if you want to hear a real shitstorm start.

This just tells you who is blogging.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 11:43:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Both you and Matt in NYC do have a point.

This being said, when it was blue-collar jobs under siege, very few Americans on the "comfortable" left, in the Democratic party, got up in arms. After all, those were the days of Clintonomics, a cresting tide causing all boats to rise and all that. Never mind that labor and progressives outside of the Democratic party, in tandem, heroically de-railed the WTO at Seattle in 1999 - those voices were, and are, marginalized.

I would argue that it isn't until white, middle-class jobs start shipping off to India that the issue hits the mainstream in America, and of course, we're talking pretty xenophobic, limited analyses of the issue here. Still no place at the table for labor or altermondialist voices, despite the power both can and do wield (eg Cancun, with growing cooperation of key developing nations like China, India, Brazil).

Certainly there were some Democratic voices who have always been righteous on this issue, and understand it through and through (and aren't simply playing xenophobe cards), voices like Dennis Kucinich, who honestly we cannot say is in the Democratic mainstream.

But the critical mass of the Democratic party and, by unfortunate extension, those portions of the American left which have not been marginalized, is very much neo-liberal in outlook and still under the general weltenschauung described by that wealthy liberal par excellence, Tom Friedman, in his magnum piece-of-shit The World is Flat. Tweak around the edges if you like, they say, but the system is fundamentally sound. Never mind all these mass migrations north, and the increasing poverty south, not to mention accelerated environmental degradation.

Now, many working Americans are quite upset with the current course and policies. And it is heartening to see that some of the new Reps "get it," or at least part of it at any rate. But this does not change the fact that when the new Democratic caucus wants to talk trade, they get Rubin and no labor, and that you don't see any Democrats of any renown heading to the WSF. And I'm not holding my breath any will be heading to Atlanta for the US Social Forum next year.

After all, Davos is still much more to their taste.

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:54:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly there were some Democratic voices who have always been righteous on this issue, and understand it through and through (and aren't simply playing xenophobe cards), voices like Dennis Kucinich, who honestly we cannot say is in the Democratic mainstream.

I was a Kucinich voter in 2004, and I wasn't alone, if you want to be truely entertained look at the resuls of Democrats primaries after the March contents in which Kerry became the effective winner.

Indiana voted in May, year Kerry could only muster something like 70% of the Democratic vote.  Many people voted expressively rather than instrumentally, that is they voted for as an expression rather than the actual expectation there candidate would win.

Being in California, you may not see this as much. But in many states of the Midwest, we have a history of getting frustrated with the system and voting for third parties.  Like the great Hoosier socialist, Edward Debs, of the Wisconin progressive LaFollette.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:35:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh, actually I'm in MN, and he got just under 20% here, with Edwards still in the race.

Let's Go Red Wings!
by redstar on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 01:21:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was a great result.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 01:38:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know how I got that you were in California.

Still, Minnesota is arguably trending far less social democratic as the Scandinvian culutral heritage is undermined by assimilation. In other areas of the Great Lakes states what I see most strongly is that with deindustrialization large parts of the working class have been taken up by the idea that there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the two parties.  And when debate is suppressed it only serves to validate that view.


And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tweak around the edges if you like, they say, but the system is fundamentally sound.

Not just fundamentally sound, but also fundamentally inevitable. This is in my opinion even more vicious a claim that excludes any competing argument without consideration, and removes large swaths of economic possibilities from legitimate policy concerns. They don't just disagree with other approaches, but disregard them as idiocy by raging (leftist) lunatics.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 01:02:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now, many working Americans are quite upset with the current course and policies. And it is heartening to see that some of the new Reps "get it," or at least part of it at any rate. But this does not change the fact that when the new Democratic caucus wants to talk trade, they get Rubin and no labor, and that you don't see any Democrats of any renown heading to the WSF. And I'm not holding my breath any will be heading to Atlanta for the US Social Forum next year.

I think you are quite right.  The problem with much of working class America is that the two dominant political parties have managed to squeeze them ideologically between a rock and a hard place. Although I refer to my dear Southerners, what I say I believe also applies to working classes of other regions as well.  The South, in particular, was solidly Democratic and pro labor until the civil rights (particularly busing and school desegregation) and anti-Vietnam war movements (seen as unpatriotic) (both strongly supported by liberal Democrats), alienated white Southerners and turned them into staunch Republicans.  Blinded by their rage, they have been unable to see, or are unwilling to acknowledge, the damage inflicted by the core Republican Party's anti-labor, big business policies. Add to this the continuing high profile, simplistically presented conflicts over the place of religion, sexual preference, gun control, abortion/birth control, and other causes championed by liberal Democrats, and it's not too difficult to understand why they continue to vote for the very persons who are cutting their economic throats.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:02:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But Americans have always had this unique spur to global involvement, an ideological righteousness that inclines them to meddle in the affairs of others, to seek change, to insist on imposing their avowed "universal principles" usually through peaceful pressures but sometimes through war.
Always?  Wasn't the US a more than reluctant participant in WWII,,,,,and for that matter WWI?
by wchurchill on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:36:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the myth for public consumption. And, the US was quite enthusiastic about carrying the "white man's burden" from the Spanish-American War onwards, if not before. See Wikipedia: The Rise of US Imperialism.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:35:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Au contraire, the author's statements are easily seen as a rewrite of history,,,,,probably done for "public consumption".

this very clearly supports a reluctance to get into WWI on the part of the United States:

Firmly maintaining neutrality when World War I began in 1914, the United States entered the war against Germany only after Germany announced that its U-boats would conduct unrestricted submarine warfare against neutral shipping and the U.S. discovered that the Germans had attempted to ask Mexico to go to war against the United States in case the United States went to war with Germany. Sympathies among many politically and industrially influential Americans had favored the British and French cause from the start of the war; however, a sizable number of citizens (which included many of Irish and German extraction) were staunchly opposed to U.S. involvement in the European conflict (at least on the British side), and the vote in Congress, on April 6, 1917, to declare war was far from unanimous.

Further evidence rebutting this comment

But Americans have always had this unique spur to global involvement, an ideological righteousness that inclines them to meddle in the affairs of others, to seek change, to insist on imposing their avowed "universal principles" usually through peaceful pressures but sometimes through war.
was the overwhelming rejection of the League of Nations by the Senate, and then the loss of the Presidency by Wilson in the next campaign which focused on the League as the major issue:
The great alarm felt by these senators was created by Article X of the Covenant which read as follows: "Article X. The Members of the League undertake to respect and preserve as against external aggression the territorial integrity and existing political independence of all Members of the League. In case of any such aggression or in case of any threat or danger of such aggression the Council shall advise upon the means by which this obligation shall be fulfilled." This article, it was claimed, "threw away" the sovereignty of the United States, violated Washington's last message to Congress to keep free from foreign entanglements, and would forever involve the US in foreign wars to protect the territories of other actions.

These arguments aroused the Americans, and many began to wonder to what extent the League might keep the US involved in international disputes and wars.

<snip>.

,,,,,consequently the resolution was lost by a vote of 57-37. In the general election of the following November, Wilson appealed to the people to support the League. The result of the election, which was fought chiefly on the League, was an overwhelming Republican victory. This was taken as the death knell of the League in America - and so it was.

While there was some support for economic support for the Allies in WWII, there was very strong support for staying out of the war and other people's affairs.  It took a surprise attack upon Pearl Harbor to push America into war with Japan.  And then it took a German declaration of war on the US, to draw a reciprocal declaration of war on Germany.  From Wikipedia

On December 7, a Japanese carrier fleet launched an unexpected air attack on Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. The raid destroyed most of the American aircraft on the island and knocked the main American battle fleet out of action (six battleships sank, but four of them along with two other badly damaged battleships eventually returned to service). ......

The attack united American public opinion to demand vengeance against Japan. The following day, December 8, the United States declared war on Japan. ........

Germany declared war on the United States on December 11, even though it was not obliged to do so under the Tripartite Pact. Hitler hoped that Japan would support Germany by attacking the Soviet Union. Japan did not oblige because it had signed a non-aggression treaty with the Soviet Union. Instead, Germany's declaration largely removed any significant opposition to the United States' joining the fight in the Europe Theater with full commitment.

These statements are a blatant and a very transparent rewrite of history.  His statements are evidently for "public consumption".

by wchurchill on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:41:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the overwhelming rejection of the League of Nations by the Senate, and then the loss of the Presidency by Wilson in the next campaign which focused on the League as the major issue

Except that Wilson was reelected for his second term in 1916, then entered the war, then lost control of Congress in the 1918 midterm, and then advocated for the league of nations and lost the Senate vote in 1919.

You seem to have a penchant for reversing chains of events.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:53:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, the November 1920 election was primarily about the League of Nations and Wilson's views on it. And the Senate vote was March 20, 1920, not 1919.   I'll quote the entire quote from above to make the dates more clear--more verbage, which I was trying to avoid, but perhaps more clarity:
The signatory nations to the Treaty all ratified it, which meant acceptance of the League. Mr. Wilson, seeing a change of sentiment, began a speaking tour of the country to restore sentiment in favor of the League. He was successful in arousing the people of the Pacific Coast to his support. But the strain of the tour was too much for the President and he collapsed at Wichita, Kansas, on September 26, 1919.

There were some attempts at a compromise on Article X by President Wilson and his opponents, and certain reservations were voted on against President Wilson's wishes. After two votes on November 13 and November 19, in which the Democrats, on Mr. Wilson's advice, did not vote, the opponents of the League voted for ratification of the Treaty with reservations, but failed to carry the resolution. President Wilson was incompetent through illness to lead the Democratic part, and, as he had no lieutenant capable of taking his place, the championship for the League became weak. Finally, on March 20, 1920, a resolution of ratification was presented and again President Wilson advised the Democratic senators not to vote for it; consequently the resolution was lost by a vote of 57-37. In the general election of the following November, Wilson appealed to the people to support the League. The result of the election, which was fought chiefly on the League, was an overwhelming Republican victory. This was taken as the death knell of the League in America - and so it was.

Wilson was not the candidate due to stroke, but the primary issue in the 1920 presidential election was the League of Nations, and Wilson's views on it:

The United States presidential election of 1920 was dominated by the aftermath of World War I. The wartime boom had collapsed. Diplomats and politicians were arguing over peace treaties and the question of America's entry into the League of Nations......Outgoing President Woodrow Wilson was deeply unpopular: the economy was in a recession, Wilson's prosecution of the war had angered several traditionally Democratic constituencies, and his sponsorship of the League of Nations ran counter to American isolationism which had been strengthened by World War I's butcher bill.....Both major parties turned to dark horse candidates from the elector-rich state of Ohio. The Democrats nominated newspaper publisher and Governor James M. Cox to take on Senator Warren G. Harding. Harding essentially campaigned against Wilson, and, with an almost 4-to-1 spending advantage, beat Cox in a landslide.
by wchurchill on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:45:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:47:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We're talking past each other again: you're talking about isolationism and I'm talking about colonialism.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:56:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
World Wars I & II were obviously going to be serious ventures, not turkey-shoots, so popular enthusiasm was certainly lessened.  

Even so, they were finally sold, and look how they were sold:  War to End All Wars; Make the World Safe for Democracy, &c.  

by Gaianne on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 02:23:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even so, they were finally sold, and look how they were sold:  War to End All Wars; Make the World Safe for Democracy
I think you underestimate the American public's ability to make good decisions.  There is always open debate on these issues--and each side has slogans, of course.  America was very reluctant, always is, to go to war.  It didn't take time to "sell" them.  The situations in these cases just evolved to a point where their judgement was to go ahead.

And that doesn 't mean they won't change their mind down the road.  Rationale people do, as events unfold, and situations change.

by wchurchill on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 01:20:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
During WWI, the USA may first only have supplied weapons to Europe, but at the same time, it was meddling elsewhere, from Central America to Southeast Asia. But I agree you with pre-WWII -- there was an exceptional decade of strong isolationism both at people and government level, broken only when FDR started diplomated muscleplay with Japan and started to create the Military-Industrial Complex.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 09:56:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You wanna see isolation? Watch the next decade. Anybody from either party who suggests an overseas expedition will be laughed out of office.
by asdf on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:45:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i hope you are right on this one.  Withdrawal from NATO, closing western European naval bases, recognising that the UN is little more than a debating society and funding and treating it in that way--I'm close to Drew position on withdrawal, but not quit there.  A Kennedy style "man to the moon" program to reduce our need for foreign oil (oil drilling in the US to bridge the program)--just make it happen in 5--10 years.  New impetus on programs to protect the country,,,,,to mention just a few ideas.
by wchurchill on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:07:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The US cannot withdraw from NATO, only dissolve it.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:09:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds like a good plan.

Let's Go Red Wings!
by redstar on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:16:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can only hope.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!
by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:25:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would agree with your comment prior to WWI.  The Phillipines is an example, though per Wikipedia there was opposition,
Nevertheless, many Americans deeply opposed American involvement in the Philippines, leading to the abandonment of attempts to construct a permanent naval base for use as an entry point to the Chinese market. In 1916, Congress guaranteed the independence of the Philippines by 1945.
There were issues with Cuba, which could potentially have a strong blockading potential on key southern ports, like New Orleans.  And there was debate about the "sphere of influence" concept regarding Central and Southern America,,,,,was European influence there acceptable, should it be acceptable to America, was it a threat.  There was a lot for a young country to sort through,,,and the European powers had certainly established a model of colonialism and power through overseas might.  And you are right, the US exercized its power in all of these situations.
by wchurchill on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:59:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There was always opposition to the US Presidents' "splendid little wars", that is not under dispute. However, when the government wants a war, they get it, and they sell it as a civilising mission.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:02:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
when the government wants a war, they get it, and they sell it as a civilising  

It ALWAYS goes like this.  The opposition is there, but NEVER succeeds.  This is a constant over the whole US history.  

by Gaianne on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 02:16:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This question of the US left not being very "left" by international standards (no socialism, a pretty tame labor movement) has been around for a long time.

I think these ideas are pretty standard but worth thinking about.

One line of thought is that the unique economic development pattern of the US -- relative prosperity  (even pre-independence) by world standards (immigrants were always leaving Europe to get here, never the other way around) due to abundant land and natural resources and a systematic labor shortage -- could satisfy the material needs of most Americans without resort to radical politics.

There is also the "exceptionalism" of American political development -- in the US, political equality (universal white male suffrage, free public education) preceded industrialization, with its concentrations of wealth and economic power. In Europe movements for political equality came later, and coincided with industrialization, thereby more firmly linking together issues of political and economic equality.

Thus socialism has never been on the agenda here, organized labor has tended to be focused on "bread and butter" issues and not on reshaping society (more radical 19th century labor organizations like the National Labor Union or the Knights of Labor came to nothing), and the state is much more firmly in the hands of capitalists.

Even when the American left was most firmly in power in the 1930s to 1960s, it was a pretty conservative liberalism, as suggested by British journalist-turned-historian Godfrey Hodgson, who summarized the ideas of post-WW2 US liberals in what he called an "ideology of the 'liberal consensus'":


  1. The American free-enterprise system is different from the old capitalism. It is democratic. It creates abundance. It has a revolutionary potential for social justice.

  2. The key to this potential is production - specifically, increased production, or economic growth. This makes it possible to meet people's needs out of incremental resources. Social conflict over resources between classes (what Marx called "the locomotive of history") therefore becomes obsolete and unnecessary.

  3. Thus there is a natural harmony of interests in society. American society is getting more equal. It is in process of abolishing, may even have abolished, social class. Capitalists are being superseded by managers. The workers are becoming members of the middle class.

  4. Social problems can be solved like industrial problems - the problem is first identified; programs are designed to solve it, by government enlightened by social science. Money and other resources - such as trained people - are then applied to the problem as "inputs." The outputs are predictable - the problem will be solved.

  5. The main threat to this beneficent system comes from the deluded adherents of Marxism. The United States and its' allies, the Free World, must therefore expect a prolonged struggle against communism.

  6. Quite apart from the threat of Communism, it is the duty and destiny of the United States to bring the good tidings of the free-enterprise system to the rest of the world.

Remember, this is what liberals (i.e. what passes for a left wing over here) were thinking.

American liberalism became more a theory of technocratic social and economic management than a political movement after World War II, typified by JFKs 1962 Yale commencement address:

Today...the central domestic problems of our time are more subtle and less simple. They do not relate to basic clashes of philosophy and ideology, but to ways and means of recasting common goals--to research for sophisticated solutions to complex and obstinate issues.

What is at stake in our economic decisions today is not some grand warfare of rival ideologies which will sweep the country with passion but the practical management of a modern economy. What we need are not labels and cliches but more basic discussion of the sophisticated and technical questions involved in keeping a great economic machinery moving ahead. ...[T]he problems of...the Sixties as opposed to the kinds of problems we faced in the Thirties demand subtle challenges for which technical answers--not political answers--must be provided.

Anything more radical than this - Debsian socialism, the IWW, Populism, Wallacite Progressivism, Martin Luther King's attempt to expand the civil rights movement to consider issues of economic inequality - tends to get either co-opted or cut off at the knees in the US.

by TGeraghty on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 04:51:31 PM EST
I think this MyDD diary:

Obama, MLK and Hegemony

. . . is relevant to the discussion here. It illustrates that often when American liberals try to break out of the existing conservative discourse they just end up reinforcing it.

by TGeraghty on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 05:11:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
2. In direct contradiction to myth one (with the conjunction of the two myths producing often disastrous results), Americans are a people of self-made men; they pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and this is the secret to their (increasingly equally mythical) superior economic performance. This is the "Rugged individual" myth.

I don't know if Europe has founding myths like Canada and the US do.

In the US, it is the farmers who defeated the world's largest superpower - England.  One can hear the voice of Paul Revere echoing through the streets rousing the farmers to defend the nation. The can do rugged individualism myth comes from the process of the founding of the United States. If you try hard enough you can do anything.

This fits in with the eleventh - the American commandment believed by 75% of Americans to be part of the bible if Harper's is to be believed: The lord helps those who help themselves.

by edwin on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 07:49:52 PM EST
Every community has a creation myth.

Spain's used to be the Reconquista, which is a particularly mythical and ahistorical rendering of 8 centuries of history. I wonder whether that stays current or has been superseded by mythical views of the Transition.

Western civilisation has a creation myth involving a continuous succession of civilisations and empires all the way back to the first cities in Mesopotamia.

It is possible, though, that Europe (as in, the EU) doesn't have a creation myth yet, because it is also not a community yet.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 08:02:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe it varies from country to country? Here I'd say the ideal image of the United-Europe thingy is ... a phoenix of peace-and-prosperity-in-unity flying up from the ashy corpse-strewn rubble of two unspeakably devastating world wars due to European rivalries - NEVER AGAIN!! ??

"Ignoring moralities is always undesirable, but doing so systematically is really worrisome." Mohammed Khatami
by eternalcityblues (parvati_roma aaaat libero.it) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 11:39:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my mind, the text running beneath the bombs, rubble, corpses, craters and ashes then final miraculous-phoenix-rising-up imagery is Auden's "1st September 1939" ...

And its punch-line - despite Auden's second thoughts - is and remains:

"We must love one another or die".  

So that - i.e. having understood that, AWOKEN to that - is our "European uniqueness"??... and what's more, it's  our ... universal message = mission?

To testify that we've been there, done that, the whole imperial caper, rival empires caper, colonisations caper, whiteman's-burden caper, wars-of-conquest caper, nationalisms/religious rivalries caper, bombs and corpses caper, bigger-and-better-armaments caper - been there not once but countless times, done 'em and played 'em all every whichaway - so time and time again we've stared into the abyss and the abyss has stared back into us.. until at last, at long-long last, we-the-stained-survivors somehow stepped back from the brink, shook our heads and swore "Never Again".  

(...cymbals, trumpets, rays of dazzling light ...)

At which point we-the-awakened can all/should all now stretch out our hands to those still unawakened, to try to pull them back out of the abyss of ignorance i.e. mutual devastation and destruction cycles to the newfound solid ground - and only hope of ultimate planetary survival - that acceptance of our salvation-through-reconciliation message can ensure?

If so - if this really is what's behind at least PART of Europe's self-image - this "European Gnosis" myth is totally discordant with the American narrative not only in PNAC version but in its "normal" versions - also re the way of reading WW2, war in general... which could explain some of the nerviness, the feeling of non-communication that sometimes sets in... as we're talking totally at cross-purposes - from different mythological foundations, different cosmologies ??


"Ignoring moralities is always undesirable, but doing so systematically is really worrisome." Mohammed Khatami

by eternalcityblues (parvati_roma aaaat libero.it) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:31:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Brilliant.

It is important to make the difference between a creation-historical myth being basically structural myth and other narratives or "common places" which could be very much believed or recognized by the society.

THe reconquista, we as a christian nation, is a strucutral myth in Spain...the transition is still a narrative.. but a strong one.

Brilliant comment Migeru.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:00:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as myth what impact does Zapatero have on the myth of Espana, una, grande, y libre when he confronts the historical legacy of the Civil War as Gonzalez never dared?

In time must the Transition and the subesequent adoption of European identity supplant the earlier myth?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:12:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the "two Spains" are quite alive, and that they have different myths about the Transition. Zapatero will have no effect in the part of Spain that still holds on to the Una, Grande, Libre myth, if anything he's forcing those still in the PSOE out of it.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 06:15:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be off-topic here, but I would love an account of Canada's "founding myth."
by Matt in NYC on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:44:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"we were created as 'not america'"

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 10:40:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Laura Secord led her cow across the field shouting the Americans are comming, the Americans are comming!
by edwin on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 11:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is also the problem that the American governmental system was set up as an Enlightenment project, and most of the current population would not agree with Enlightenment philosophy if they were challenged on it. The wholesale involvement in Christianity, in direct opposition to Reason, is perhaps the most obvious example.
by asdf on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 08:13:00 PM EST
What's more, probably most of the then population would not have agreed with it, had it a chance of popular vote on details. The American government system was also a project by the then elite.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:05:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is why I admire the "Founding Fathers" as much for their wily and, I think, subversive compromises as much as for the few truly progressive things they got through.
by Matt in NYC on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:31:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent piece, and personally am really looking forward to the ones to follow.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 09:16:06 PM EST
Surely it's not a surprise to anyone here that the US is more conservative economically and socially than western Europe.  (I guess the Europeans would say Americans are liberal economically, Americans say conservative.)  Nor is it a surprise that Americans are more religious/spiritual than western Europe?  At the core, these are really big differences.

Now, people have always constructed myths about themselves, about what they are and what they ought to be. They arrange their relationships to others according to their faith, their idea of normal man, et c. Inevitably, these creative ideas, these myths, escape the power of those who ideated them and assume a power of their own. In short order, creators bow down before that which they have created, and the more ingenuous of them attempt to wield such power over other men.
So since people have always constructed these myths, what would the German, or French, 5 myths be?  There was the odd comment on a country or two in the thread, but is there an installment coming on a European country, here at the European Tribune?
by wchurchill on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:56:08 AM EST

So since people have always constructed these myths, what would the German, or French, 5 myths be?  There was the odd comment on a country or two in the thread, but is there an installment coming on a European country, here at the European Tribune?

That would indeed be an interesting project to pursue. Paging volunteers...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:02:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
5 myths about italy
  1. la bella vita is as good as it looks to a tourist
  2. beauty is everything
  3. with a full stomach, we can outlive governmental folly
  4. san remo music festival is about music
  5. charm is an adequate substitute for efficiency

5 myths about england
  1. orwell was kidding
  2. alcohol brings out bonhomie (word has no translation in english, nuff said)
  3. with enough great tv, the weather doesn't matter
  4. cameron is cool
  5. the labour party is on 'our' side

snark...

come on folks, answer wchurchill, what are the myths that sustain your 'national identity'?

great diary, btw!

and thanks for jerome for sparking it, can't wait for the sequels!

"Music is the pleasure the human mind experiences from counting without being aware that it is counting." - Leibniz .

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:22:44 AM EST
  1. "Nos ancêtres les Gaulois" (all French citizens are the same, whatever their actual origins)

  2. The French invented liberté, égalité, fraternité and qualité de vivre and bring them to the world (not these upstart Americans)

  3. My privileges are fair compensation; others' privileges must be eliminated in the name of equality (we all love to be a little bit more equal than others);

  4. Decentralisation must be run from Paris;

  5. The French love to tell this joke "Others think they are the best. The French know they are the best" and then explain what's wrong with France. They're the best at that too.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:54:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More cultural myths/popular standpoints:

  • "Impossible n'est pas Français", or nothing is impossible when you're French.

  • Our movies may always end sadly, have mediocre actors, and have ordinary life scenarios, they're nevertheless far better than any movie the Americans will ever produce.

  • We didn't really lose WWII (the referee should have red-carded Hitler for not playing fair).

  • Fast food is sacrilegious, but lousy ham and butter sandwiches served in a filthy brasserie are the best thing in the world.
by glomp on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 01:51:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also:

"On a pas de pétrole mais on a des idées"/(We don't have oil, we have ideas);

"Champions du Monde des matchs amicaux" /World Champion in International Friendlies (no longer operative after 1998);

"La révolution est comme une bicyclette : quand elle n'avance plus, elle tombe." "Eddy Mercx!"..."Non, Che Guevara"

Competing myth from the right, dating from the Revolution forward (they never seem to come up with new, creative ways of expressing their disappointment with progress):

"La France dans la spirale du déclin"/The inexorable

Let's Go Red Wings!

by redstar on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
oops forgot to finish last phrase...should read The inexorable decline of France.

Let's Go Red Wings!
by redstar on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:21:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany:

  1. We are the cleanest, richest, most educated, most technologically developed people on Earth, and They want to take it away from us.

  2. Our cities are dirty, our economy collapses, our schools are failing, our R&D is killed, and we should copy how they do it abroad. (1. and 2. can be held by the same person -- really schisophrenic.)

  3. If you tidy up your home and workplace, you tidy up your country.

  4. Nie wieder Auschwitz (/nie wieder Krieg) [never again Auschwitz (/never again war)].

  5. Wunder von Bern [West German World Cup victory 1954]/Nationalelf [national football team]/Fußball [football].


*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 01:28:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The German national identity can be put in one short sentence:

Our church are our forests.

The essence of Englishness is to enjoy a luke warm cup of tea from a thermos in a damp car parked on Beachy Head whilst staring into the mist on a cold, windy November day.



"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 03:49:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The American ideology functions on the 'drop another nickel' principle: Game over - try again.



"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 03:59:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The country will retreat into the Alpine bunkers and survive.



"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 04:09:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It takes constant work and compromise to keep the levees in good order.



"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 04:26:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Our church are our forests.

Very true. (Brings back memories of many walks. In woods full of other walkers.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 04:58:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
German forests have no underbrush (unlike in Italy, Spain, and other Mediterranean countries.) and the trees give the impression of being columns and the canopy adds to the gothic church feeling. The German forest are open - unlike a jungle forest which is closed and impenetrable. The contrast of person vs huge trees creates a churchlike atmosphere of awe and of sacrality. The trees are standing in a regular order and can be seen in their individuality - they don't appear to be chaotic.

Mind you that the Greens got into parliament when the German people discovered that the forests were dying due to acid rain. One could also argue that the German political parties became very ecologically minded because of the threat to the forest - and this includes the conservative parties.

Germans are still pagans who worship trees.



"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 07:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
German forests have no underbrush

Hmmmm, you must have walked in forests in only a part of Germany! In the Taunus, the Vogelsberg, the Spessart, the Hunsrück, the Odenwald, and a couple of others, I encountered plenty of underbrush in parts of the forest. It depends on the age and the type of the trees planted.

But when the forest is older, and especially if it is beech, it is indeed as you describe. In particular when, as your photo, there is fog. I made that experience on only three trips when there (out of maybe fifty), but those were memorable.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 07:16:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmh. Forests, German Ideology, Sacrality of the German Forest, paganism... It ain't only the Greens that came with those themes - as anyone familiar with the author the diarist is presumably referring to would know (we're not talking Marx). I'm not even sure if they apply to the Greens that much. Die Gruenen managed to create an environmentalist discourse pretty thoroughly cleansed of the older Konservativ-National/Voelkisch one of Kulturlandschaft.
by MarekNYC on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 07:17:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Admittedly, there is the nationalist-conservative-völkisch thoughtr behind the myth of the German forest, which was heavily utilised by the Third Reich. But I think there is more to it, and it is a living myth beyond the conservative-nationalist mindset. Here is a relevant article (in German).

On a broader note, I participated in this subthread in the mindset of uncovering subconscious assumptions and beliefs correlated with nationalisms (in my sense, as imagined communities). But, of course, (1) all of these myths are internalised by different subsets of adherents of one nation, and to different extent, (2) to some extent, all of these myths have counterparts in other nationalisms. To extend the latter, I'd say there are several myths that are central to one nationalism that are almost universal among nationalisms, but not recognised as such. Say, "united we are great, disunity aways led to our fall", and the connected "we are a very divided people".

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 08:36:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The first guy who talked about the Germans as forest people was Tacitus in 96. He depicted the wood people very much as 'noble barbarians' and used it to mirror the, in his view, morally corrupted and feable minded Roman city dwellers' lifestyle (mores).

German romanticism breaks with the classic view, also expressed by Shakespeare in A Midsummer Night's Dream, that the forest is a ex-urbe place of condamnation and chaos.

The German working class movement sees the forest as a place of gaining social strength through personal interaction and sports (in corpore sano...) as shown in the film "Kuhle Wampe".

The Nazis mystify the nordic wood and interprete the free standing rows of orderly assembled trees as a symbol of military marching columns of soldiers.

A lot of things could be said about the forest scene of Siegfried in the Nibelungen, or more recently some Greens activists chaining themselves to trees to stop the construction of new runways at Frankfurt airport (see: tree huggers).

So, DoDO pretty much nails it when he says:

But, of course, (1) all of these myths are internalised by different subsets of adherents of one nation, and to different extent, (2) to some extent, all of these myths have counterparts in other nationalisms.



"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 11:33:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Odenwald just as I remember it:



*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 07:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I like that very much.  

Wish it were true here.  

by Gaianne on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 05:51:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hungary:

  1. 'We' are not the Balkans, 'we' are the last bastion of civilised Europe.

  2. 'We' are the biggest losers of history. (It's in the national anthem, written before WWI and WWII and 1956.) But 'we' are rebellious.

  3. 'We' are the most intelligent/creative/educateed people in the world.

  4. 'We' are hospitable.

  5. Food from other countries tastes like nothing.

(I'd say every singe of these is at least a misconception.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 01:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Nonpartisan on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:26:05 PM EST


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