Open Thread

by Jerome a Paris
Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 01:37:31 PM EST

So who's around tonight?


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Not me, I'm a veritable tornado of productivity, no lolling about on t'internet here, no sir.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 01:42:48 PM EST
Gerron wi'yer.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:32:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you sure?

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._
by metavision on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:37:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, er... These things just slip out, you know...


When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They do right, me duck

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:42:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can someone translate this discussion to Standard English?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:27:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well lad, tha sees I started t'thread with t'ironic bathtub of productivity and lakin' 'bout on t'internet.

afew were less than chuffed with the spectacle.

metavision thought afew were pulling legs.

afew were rightly shameful of his comment, but Sven got stuck in on his side.

Then you asked f'translation and I most kindly oblige...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:52:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bin dahn tahn this afto at the flicks - gotta butchers at this new Bond bloke.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good to see someone who can talk proper.

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:26:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is most exciting, because I have no idea what it means!  I was joking and hoping for translation too.

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._
by metavision on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gerron wi'yer = Get on with you

-- which, in the context, meant that I was expressing doubt as to the veracity of Metatone's claim not to be wasting his time on Internet. I was saying something like "You're kidding".

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 02:12:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bin dahn tahn this afto at the flicks - gotta butchers at this new Bond bloke.

I have been to town this afternoon to the cinema and had a look at the gentleman who is playing James Bond.

good to see that I am as linguistically adept as many others here ;-)

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aye.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:28:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am around here.. and I found a wonderful present for the spanish community..and everyone  

If you are spanish you cna go directly to:

Rajoy and Acebes

Do not miss it.

If you are not spanish and you do not get it, I would like to recall a song I posted and translated here ..a catalan song about how nice is every day and how incredible is the every dya life.. you can find this song here

Bon dia, by Els pets

afew will provide the translation :)

It turns out the spanish right is closing fast the gap with the left-wing government due to the lack of progress inthe peace process with ETA, the lack of authority-image in the last month of Zapatero (we Spaniards love sharing and caring and dialogue figures as long as they are authoritiarian... I know it sounds strange,an oximoron.. but not in Spain, the famous saying "quine manda , manda"="boss is boss" or"the one taht rules, rules" is ubiquous in Spain), and the total fringe right-wing aliance with the right-wing party thanks to the full support of conspiracy theories regarding the attck of Al-Qaeda in Madrid 11 M (the fascists in psain beleive it was ETA because a bottle of Acd Boric was found both in an Eta FLAT and int the flat of the AQ terrorists..being acid boric something you typically buy everywhere in Spain)

So.. I think you will love this final part of an sketch of the president of PP (Rajoy) and the former interior minister (Acebes, inc harge of the police during 11M) singing a beatiful song!!!

Bon dia, by Right wing

It is not fun that they are close (but ZP will win for sure)..but it is just great...

The translation  is here:

Both: Bon Dia (Nice day)
Both: Nobody really asked me but..it's bon dia.

M Rajoy :and it is required that new flowers appear every other moment. (singing in catalan)

Acebes: Look, how high (drug-sense) we are , that we are singing in catalan!! (spanish form now on)

A: Mariano, what's up?

R:That we are at full speed and the face to the sun (fascist song)... and we have to celebrate it  with..

A:Acid boric and alcohol!!!

Both:Bon Dia.
R:.. we are coming back to power.. who would have guessed???

A:I ask myself for next Interior Minister.

R:..and if ETA keeps on like this , I do not know anyone better!!!!

Spain, Spain Spain

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 01:55:30 PM EST
What I wanted to ask you is if Els Pets is in English, meaning The Pets (like kitty-kats), or in Catalan, meaning something like The Bangs (The Hits, The Knocks, The Whacks?) ? (Nothing else).

Since I heard We're From Barcelona I can't get the #!*!!#@! tune out of my head!

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Els pets.. is actually more associated with the Farts in catalan.

But it also can mean bangs... but typically farts or anything like makes a similar sound.

Lovely song the Barcelona one.. I am form Barcelona too!!!!

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:55:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, I was being polite by saying (Nothing else). ;)

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:57:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, I got We're From Barcelona out a grans cops de Bon Dia!

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:55:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That triumvirate of buffoons would be more fun in a court of law, but the link is good.  Thanks.

_Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. --Charu Saxena._
by metavision on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:42:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is my first office Christmas do of the season, tonight. Then an office party tomorrow afternoon.  I have a gathering on saturday with work colleagues and then two more office do's next week.

It does seem a tad excessive really. This is what partnership working is all about.

Ad astra per aspera

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 01:57:15 PM EST
I came home early so's I could get my Bigos stew going. I'd made the stock on tuesday (a pork knuckle and some goat boiled in cider in the pressure cooker for 3 hours).

Now for the stew proper, bacon, sausage,blood sausage, duck with onions, mushrooms, sauerkraut and leave to simmer for 3 - 4 hours.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:16:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Especially since we're all atheists/agnostics/deists here!

The Constitution reflects our founders views of a secular government, protecting the freedom of any belief or unbelief. The historian, Robert Middlekauff, observed, "the idea that the Constitution expressed a moral view seems absurd. There were no genuine evangelicals in the Convention, and there were no heated declarations of Christian piety."

Worth reading:
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

by asdf on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 08:06:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm here.... but I have a live chat on my blog tonight so I might be popping off! Just wanted to participate in my first open thread here.

The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing
by deviousdiva (thedeviousdiva@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 02:52:07 PM EST
It's good to see you here!  I haven't said on every post, but thank you for your diaries -- they're great.  Your blogs, too!

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:05:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you so much. I've loved being here in such a supportive atmosphere.

The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing
by deviousdiva (thedeviousdiva@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:11:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The photographs are affecting. We need to be reminded in words and pictures. Photographs are often the images that we carry in our minds as a gateway to the more detailed memories.

Or at least that is how my mind works. All the corridors to different areas of my life are lined with visuals which kind of express feelings about the rooms at the mesh of the corridors.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:50:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which language is the live chat in, mostly? Are ETer's (well, one's like me who only remember to read your blog when you crosslink it from an article here!) welcome to join (subject to emailing you to get the password)?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:49:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The chat is in English. And you are welcome to join. Email me for the password...

The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing
by deviousdiva (thedeviousdiva@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:54:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Impeachment: you think the world is not watching?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:04:56 PM EST
The anti-French bit? Yuck. I guess you get used to that kind of sentiment over there at DK. I don't bother with them anymore. Too much hot air and showing off their "intellectual" superiority I'm afraid.

The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing
by deviousdiva (thedeviousdiva@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it just got a whole lot worse while I was writing. Is there a way to follow the discussions there (and here) without having to refresh your browser all the time?

The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing
by deviousdiva (thedeviousdiva@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:21:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find the best way to deal with the "discussions" over there is to ignore them.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently. I just browsed thru 95 comments, refreshed and there were 50 more.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:34:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't they get bored?


The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing
by deviousdiva (thedeviousdiva@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They think they are changing the world? Heck, in a way they are. Sometimes these things take on a weird importance in people's minds, you know. Commenting, blogging... thinking. You have to step back and ask why.

Plus there's a lot of them.

328 now.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:03:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL

I guess now that you don't have to score points with Kos to get to be a front-pager, you can give free rein to your impulses...

Nice brinkmanship.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:31:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!

Sweet. Ttotally sweet.

Sadly I can never be bothered to plough through kos comments so I have no idea how they reacted but, if you're gonna torch the place like that, I guess it ain't gonna be pretty.

{snicker}

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:45:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since I don't expect you'll get any substantive criticism over there, here goes.

The world will forget. Sad but true. America is a superpower and people will be overjoyed when it returns to sanity. European leaders will be trampling to meet with the sane new overlords of the US and will be widely praised by 'serious' journalists in their own countries for working on favourable relations. A few bloggers will be kvetching about putting the old criminals in prison, but no-one will listen to them. Rice will become the new Kissinger. In 20 years a drunken British journalist will publish a takedown piece on her which gets famous, after which said journalist will switch to the dark side and publish increasingly incoherent rants about the buddhistofascist threat.

Anti-Americanism in the '90s, for instance, was in my estimation not caused by the country's war crimes in Vietnam back in the 60s and 70s, it had to do with policies the US was enacting and promoting worldwide (neo-liberal transformation) and the effect they had on the environment and people's lifes. Plus those bases in Saudi Arabia, for some people. The same will be true 20 years from now (assuming that America pulls out within the next 2-3 years).

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 03:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I sadly agree with you regarding Europe, but not the rest of the word. I think US image received a permanent blow in many quarters.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:36:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a Nigerian friend and his perception of the US is certainly at an all time low. Mind you, it may be not so much that he won't forget Bush in a hurry as there's no sign of improvement on the horizon in the US (from the point of view of his part of Nigeria.)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True, that. Wonder what they think of Holland and the UK, considering the fine upstanding work of Shell. Also wonder what the people in the Ivory Coast think of Holland, considering the fine upstanding defence of our football team. Ehm, plus those people we poisoned.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. Ask an Indian about Sweden.

We Europeans should be careful about the mote in the US's eye.


-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Mon Dec 11th, 2006 at 05:46:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you mean now, or after Vietnam? Now, I might agree.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:34:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I mean now.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:49:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that the Iraq war is perhaps worse than Vietnam because it's really a war waged mainly due to circumstances being favourable, whereas in Vietnam there was a discernable strategic rationale (domino theory, containment, rollback). I think that the war in that sense mimics the war of 1812. Of course in Vietnam there were lies used as a pretext, the strategic rationale was flawed and domestic politics took over the war after a short while. Will the world be less able to forgive a war fought for no reason at all? Could be.

Another problem is that America is not fighting a clearly ideological entity. In Vietnam, the enemies were Communists. Or so the narrative goes. Currently the enemy is Al Qaida, Baathists, Islamofascists, sometimes Sunnis, sometimes Shi'ites, 'rogue states', etcetera. A lot of these are ethnic and religious categories. This may lead to a longer memory.

On the ground, Vietnam was still worse than Iraq. But there was no official endorsement of torture in Vietnam, which also changes the story of the war. And there are plenty of opportunities for Iraq to escalate even further, unfortunately.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:19:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

will publish increasingly incoherent rants about the buddhistofascist threat.

That made me laugh! Excellent turn of phrase there, nanne.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:44:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:39:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I quite agree with it..

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:19:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't. I would love to see Bush et al impeached and executed, but that isn't what's important. Controlling the US presidency is more important than giving that incompetent clique what they deserve.

You can't run a superpower like a vendetta, or like a court room. Laws are not holy, and there are many far more important things than revenge.

Or justice.

And people won't forget. At least not people in the European bourgeoisie. I know many European Cold Warriors who have become incredibly anti-american. Thinking Bush is almost the equivalent of Hitler or Stalin.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Controlling the US presidency is more important than giving that incompetent clique what they deserve.

If that incompetent crew doesn't get what it deserves, the next controllers of the US presidency will use its powers (greatly extended by that incompetent crew) in similarly reckless fashion. And in that situation, it is by no means obvious which is better: if they are competent or not.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think so. Things can't possibly get any worse.

I'd much rather see careful (and after Iraq disaster, they won't rock the boat) half mad people in charge than raging  insane people with a cause.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:46:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think so. Things can't possibly get any worse.

Hmmm. Things could get a lot worse.

Actually I half agree with the 'don't impeach' crowd, because as long as Bush is hemmed in by Congress he's not going to do much.

Cornered, he may do something really stupid. Like invent, arrange, or discover a pretext for martial law. Or something equally ugly.

But I also think the issue will sort itself out early next year.

Once Waxman or someone asks for information under subpoena, and Bush or Cheney refuse (probably citing National Security), you have a constitutional crisis which is going to occupy everyone's attention no matter what they currently have planned.

Kos, and apparently the rest of the Dems, are naive if they believe that the next session of Congress is going to be all about passing nice progressive-ish bills, and not a tug of war over the constitution and the powers of a wannabe unitary executive.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 07:46:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kos, and apparently the rest of the Dems, are naive if they believe that the next session of Congress is going to be all about passing nice progressive-ish bills, and not a tug of war over the constitution and the powers of a wannabe unitary executive.

Think you, unfortunately are right.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 08:30:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I prefer raging insane people bungling up every evil scheme they attempt to half-mad clever people who will implement their less evil schemes to a much fuller extent.

Also, think beyond twqo-six years. What if the raging insanes return to power after the half-mad ones, and they still can rely on extended executive power?

Oh, and "it can't get worse than this" is almost as bad as Panglossianism. Of course it can get much worse.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 01:25:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think so. Things can't possibly get any worse.  

Can and will.  I don't think you quite understand what is happening here in the US.  

Return to sanity is not on the agenda.  

Maybe we will all be surprised when the Dems take office in January.  But the way they are talking now, I wouldn't hold my breath.  

It is all about oil.  And that hasn't changed and will not change (except to get worse.)  

If you think the US is dangerous now, consider what happens when we replace the incompetent madmen with talented madmen.  

The world is not about to become safer.  

by Gaianne on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 12:56:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is all about oil.

The US economy is completely and utterly dependent on cheap transportable energy which is gasoline (petrol.)  1/6th of the US economy depends directly or indirectly on the automobile.  The last 50 years of Real Estate investment has been dependent on the automobile.  The last 4 years the US economy has been driven by a Real Estate boom, fueled by cheap money, in the context of ever expanding suburbia, dependent on the automobile.

With economic dependence (addiction?) comes a corresponding cultural adaptation.  The car becomes more than a cog in a mass transit system.  The car takes on, attaches to, resonates with various mythos: symbol of freedom, symbol of independence, socio-economic status signal, sub-group adherence signal, e.g., VW Microbus.

The one unity of life in America, crossing all ethnic, racial, gender, sexual preference, social, economic, class, and geographical division is the car.  

Economy needs cars.  Cars need gas.  Gas comes from oil.

The world is running into Peak Oil.  The US economy is running out of cheap gas.  

If you think the US is dangerous now, consider what happens when we replace the incompetent madmen with talented madmen.  

The world is not about to become safer.

Yup.


Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 01:35:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The one unity of life in America, crossing all ethnic, racial, gender, sexual preference, social, economic, class, and geographical division is the car.

Excellent.

(I wonder what division it doesn't cross? Religion? No, seems to fit right in.
How about NYC Upper East Side / Greenwich Village intellectuals? No. Honestly, I can't think of anyone except the Amish.)


-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Mon Dec 11th, 2006 at 05:58:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins
by EricC on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 07:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the 60s there were also Europeans on the streets with   'Johnson Moordenaar' (case of the Dutch) banners. People forget. At least the Dutch returned to their habitual Atlanticism quite rapidly. In the near future this forgetting will be aided by a widespread belief in Europe in the 'other America'. The bourgeois press believes that the Democrats are allies. At least that's the case in the Netherlands and Germany. Maybe in France the perception is different; in Sweden I would be surprised if it is. The perception is of course also partially right. A Democratic government would have agenda that is compatible with that of the largely center-right European bourgeoisie.

There could be a major split over the Iran issue, however.

This assumes, of course, that the American people remain sensible enough to vote in the Democrats.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:54:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I love to disagree with you on the "forget" thing!!! My 4

Regarding impeachment.. I would prefer him to be judged outside the US in a world Court after US Congress investigation ...slow congress investigation taking two years...combined with a Democratic program in COngress.

SO, on the no impreachment I agree with you.
At the same time I completley agree with Jerome diary.. it is one of those non-logical things.. it is a narrative stuff..so it perfectly fine to hold contradictory positions.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:23:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They won't forget. But forgive. Or well, live with it. America is too important to ignore or to be constantly mad at.

I think many of these people we're ready to give the American people some slack, considering Gore got more votes in 2000.

But Bush was reelected! In spite of policies that seemed to be printed by a create-maximum-damage machine! That was the thing that tipped the scales. We won't forget that.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:40:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Narrative yes... it's strong stuff!

And whenever I see the picture of this man

I feel full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes!

But sadly, emotions have no place in policy. At least not in this kind of policy.


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:27:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ironically, the thing that happens is that when you look too deep into the abyss, something looks back. My lust for revenge is my suppressed neoconservative side that fights itself to the surface.

Clean out the Corruption and bring Justice with fire and sword, and all that. Very dangerous.

Let's have a war. We need the space.
Let's have a war. Clean out this place.

Veeery dangerous.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:31:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Looks like Weird Al.


-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Mon Dec 11th, 2006 at 06:00:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And they wondered why we weren't all excited when the Democrats took Congress.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:36:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My thoughts too and I am glad I didn't get my hope up to much, the fall would have been much steeper.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:03:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We couldn't possibly have known, right? We were just being cynical, right?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:09:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sheesh we are doing the best we can.  I think its a shame that we are in such a shitty state to begin with, but really, there are a lot of us trying our best to shove this big son-of-a-bitch in the right (make that left) direction.  I think you are discounting the generally positive movement.  And what is the option?  Just quit?  I admire Jerome for going and stirring up the rabble, its helpful  DrSteveB's diaries on singlepayer health care are helpful.  What I've often asked for is European input on the basic facts of European life such as vacations, jobs, health care, transportation to be posted over there.  One thing that helps is if there is a better system actually shown.

Maybe I'm being foolish here, but I really like this place and respect you guys and its a shame imho to see the attitude of cynical superiority.  Keep the superiority if you must but drop the cynicism.  Lots of us are trying.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me just add that there are hundreds of recommends to Jerome's diary, hundreds.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also check the comment recommends in the subthreads where kos himself debates.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:51:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with Kos is that he practices a sort of Leninist Democratic Centralism: he wants to have the entre Democratic Party and the entire Democratis Caucus work like one man for a single goal. I don't understand why, for instance, John Conyers can't pursue as Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee the same investigations he has spent 6 years doing from the minority, this time with the whole power of the committee to hold hearings, summon witnesses and subpoena testimony. That need not distract the rest of the congress and the rest of the democratic party, and the netroots, from other parts of the agenda. After all, an impeachment resolution is just like any other legislative initiative: it comes out of a House committee and is voted on the floor.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:35:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I understand, but don't have much deference for Kos' political opinion.  His dkos site is a potentially powerful tool for positive movement, and to Kos' credit divergent viewpoints are fine.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kos is very talented as an organiser, but utterly clueless as a pundit. His predictive abilities have been spectacularly bad.

As long as people remember that, there's no problem. But there's a danger of people taking him seriously as a prognosticator and - worse - arbiter of policy just because dKos has been so successful. And he really isn't qualified for either of those roles.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 07:50:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Conyers doesn't have to do a thing.

Rep. Waxman can investigate anything he wants, issue subpoenas whenever he want, and either he gets the info or the non-responder goes to jail (British: gaol.)

The rest ... as he said.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 09:02:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a cultural clash here.

In Europe most people distrusts politicians by default. This does not mean that they do not trust in a general sense, but that they msut always refer to politicans in a cynical way. It is a must for any conversation.

Of course, we like some politicians, we hate some..and overall, we want that they solve ALL our prolbmes.. and when I say ALL I do really MEAN ALL our problems. Europe is BLame the politican land.

I tried to explain that to an amaerican and he almost got crazy... "if you are not in Europe you will not understand" I finished...because it makes no sense... if you think in logical terms.

On the other hand, if you think in mythical or narrative terms (in anthropological sense) it all makes sense. There is a whole narrative of "polticians must solve the problems".. "I do not need to"..and "politicans are nothing and mean nothing"... At the same tiem there is the narrative about we, the people, getting to the streets to get things done (If you are a lefty)..

SO at the same time, we admire the courage of the american left, but we do not expect anyhthing unti lthey do not get to the streets... At the same time, we are glad that democrats are there...but we do not expect anything from thm....

ANd you can add to the mix that any democrat is far to the right on economic issues compared to Europe and only half ot them are  cenetered on foreign affair issues..and you get the mixture.

So, when an european sounds condescending is not with americans or with democrats.. it is actually a state of mind.. and it is always with politicans that we consider must solve everything and do not solve anything.

I am sorry I do not have more time... it is really complex stuff.. but at least I hope you get the flavor.. Let's say that the same way you may think we are condescending, we get pissed when someone on the US left calls supporting European social welfare the "cranky left" person (not me... well not that much.. but because I know where they are coming).

I personally think you are fantastic bloke from what you write.

Take care my friend.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:39:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Europe most people distrusts politicians by default. This does not mean that they do not trust in a general sense, but that they msut always refer to politicans in a cynical way. It is a must for any conversation.

Of course, we like some politicians, we hate some..and overall, we want that they solve ALL our prolbmes.. and when I say ALL I do really MEAN ALL our problems. Europe is BLame the politican land.

I tried to explain that to an amaerican and he almost got crazy... "if you are not in Europe you will not understand" I finished...because it makes no sense... if you think in logical terms.

The mere suggestion that the President might not have the best interests of the [people of the] United States at heart can make most American heads explode.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You don't need extraordinary evidence to convince a European that their government is up to no good, but you do with an American. And a fair number of comments on Jerome's diary are saying as much: even after all that we know Bush has done in the past 6 years, it seems to be an open question whether a groundswell of outrage can be generated in the American public. Because to admit what Bush has done flies in the face of the myths that underpin America as a nation and define Americans as citizens. It is a question of faith, if being American is a religion the Constitution is scripture and the President is the High Priest, and people will rather deny the evidence before their eyes than deny their faith.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The  only one time certain Americans will dump their high priest is when the economy tanks. then it's time for reformation. And I would think America's real scripture is the Dow Jones.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 07:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is also the paternalistic attitude toward America and every other country for that matter woven into the fabric of European cultures. That's what drives us crazy, or at least disappoints us. Hell, it exists in every culture on earth, and it makes me sad when I see smart, global people barely less susceptible to it than anyone else. The average level of intelligence here is higher than any internet forum I have come across, yet here it is, perhaps a bit tuned down and more polite, the same old shit.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:06:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it is too broad brush.

Actually I think it is not paternalistic, it is even worse in some areas and in some groups in Europe...worse than paternalistic.

On the other hand, I really doubt that it is paternalism the way we feel about other countries here or in other forums..a d it is not about countires, it is really about people, classes of people.

In any case, I sort of get what you mean (not completley) but it is not certainly paternalistic (it is of course,an attitude, we all ahve attitutdes towards things)...I also doubt that paternalistic is correct in any US frame of reference.

IN other words... when I say that in Europe (some people) is worst than paternalistic , think about what someone from San Francisco will think about people in Alabama or Kansas or Georgia.

On the other hand , when i think it is better, think about what the peole supporting Dean or Berni Sanderd thought about Kerry. It is nto really a paternalism... not dislike...it is somethin like .. "why are some american naive"... I think somehow you would find this attitude all over Europe.

Is it shit? Well.. I will disagree... because we like very much people like you. And there is no shit among friends

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:16:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank You.  I really like this place, but it bums me out because it riminds me of Europe and then I think how much I like being there and how long it will be till I can get back.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 08:13:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, off-topic, but did you go on your motercycle trip?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 08:34:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Seconded.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 02:44:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and I've got bunches of pictures.  Now that the election is over and the Winter Holidays (for my fundamentalist friends) are coming I'll see if I can figure out how to post pix if you guys are still interested.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 08:58:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nearly normal:
you can find pages and pages of valuable info about Euro-Life, society and economics under:
http://www.eurofound.eu.int/index.htm

research, surveys, publication...
Our $ at work ;-)

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.

by lacordaire on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 06:36:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, saved in favorites.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 06:42:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's becoming quite predictable:  a few kettle-pot comments (shut up you're French, Algeria, Rwanda, etc...), including from well-known posters, a number of equally vocal supporters, the brass of the site coming down on me for being unpractical and ignorant of political realities, and a lot of substantive comments on why it is or isn't a good idea, along with suggestions to do it more effectively - and a lot of support from the kossack "base".

kos is not the community. I have no idea how this will play out, but it will be interesting.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:16:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yea, it looked to me as if you virtually took over the site! I only read a part of the comments involving him before the site went down for maintenance, but it seemed he was forced very much into the defensive.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to burn the place down, Falkes, support the secession of Southern Kossacks in January.

Position papers justifying secession, diplomatic recognition, etc.

I'll have to mosey over and check this out.

They're fun to watch when they get riled.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:42:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that was a righteous thing you did.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden
by redstar on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is not the thoughts of Kos, or Jerome that will lead to the impeachment of Bush. When a good part of the American public wants impeachment and a few Republicans turn, that will be the time. This discussion is premature. Let Henry Waxman and Conyers start their work and we'll  see.

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 07:28:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed!

Well Said.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 07:33:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pretty funny set of comments over there on the old Daily Kos, eh?

Note to the Rest Of The World: There is no way that Bush is going to be impeached. Forget it. You see, the Democrats AGREE with most of his policies.

  • Where is the statement by a Democrat clarifying that the Geneva convention prevents you from interrogating prisoners of war? What is this "interrogation" of which you speak, anyway? Something from True Crimes television?
    No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.
    http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/y3gctpw.htm

  • Where is the cry for the dismantlement of the CIA, which has proven for its entire 50+ year history that not only is it bad at spying, it's also bad at maniuplating other governments by sponsoring revolutions, murders, etc.?

  • Where is the demand by the Democratic party big-wigs for immediate withdrawal from Iraq? Just because a few extremists on the left say something doesn't mean that the party itself supports an idea.

Bush will be president for another couple of years, and then be replaced by another establishment figure who may have an R after HIS name, or perhaps a D. But it won't matter...
by asdf on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 08:37:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I love to be educated, about my country, by someone so Intelligent.

Makes for genuine amusement.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 09:16:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's his country too.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 01:29:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bravo to you, Jérôme, for the diary entry at dKos, which I think a lot of American lurkers like me totally agree with. I don't know why so many self-identified Democrats think we shouldn't try to chew gum and impeach Bush at the same time, especially in view of the crimes he's committed or had committed in his name. I also didn't get what your being French had to do with invalidating your point of view but your sheer and galling non-Americanness obviously irritated a whole segment of the dKos community (and even Mr Kos himself, from what I read). But I hope you'll not let that get you down, I suspect you have some experience in this sort of response (qed, "fireworks expected") so I am sure you can deal. Just wanted you to know that lots of us do appreciate your sentiments and find your logic quite unassailable.
by Edouard (edouard@salebetedeletethis.net) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:18:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I talked about college kids carrying on a badly-run debate the other day when speaking of DKos. The main thing I see on that thread is that Kos himself is in there, right down on the lowest level: ignorance and knee-jerk exceptionalism.

And, as he says in one of his "comments": he makes the rules...

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:07:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was amazed seeing Kos participate so extenisively and rude - I wonder what is doing on?
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking that the site crash was an attempt to grab thinking time, and was surprised when It came back so quickly.

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 06:04:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For some strange reason, all attempts i make to post anything to that, all seem to fail.

Probably would only have wound them up more.

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:47:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is very flaky tonight, I think having a 900+ comment thread being constantly loaded probably isn'yt helping though

As we journey through life, we should keep an iron grip, to the very end, on the capacity for silliness. It preserves the soul from dessication.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 07:23:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing like the freedom of a "crancky left" (I bet you support Kucinihihihi, eh don't you.. tell the truth...!!!) in Europe who works for a big bank (oh my dear I love kafka) being somehow liberated about something...

A huge hug, Jerome...although I normally do not get or understand or agree with you...somehow I feel I do this time.

Take care.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 05:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
919 comments as of this time stamp.

And there is no how, no way, I am going to attempt to download that many comments on my steam-powered ISP.

Have epistemological model of Complex Information environments. Will Travel.

by ATinNM on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 08:54:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm here but I'm gonna sign off again. I've been assembling Ikea furniture all evening and I'm feeling just totally... (no, I won't say it)(oh hell, yes I will)  ... screwed.

G'night!

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:02:24 PM EST
That's a totally screwing activity, dvx. Sleep well!

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:08:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well... I am around. And - well to be honest - it's because Jerome stuck it to them at DK.

There are less altruistic people in the world than you Jerome - and the worst thing is perhaps... finding your mentor to be one of them.

And don't tell me Kos wasn't... or at least the house that he built.

Well - I just came by to say Kudos... Good on Ye' ... Well Done... and all those other slapback angloisms.

Letting Georgie Boy and his cohorts off scot-free as concluded by the boy wonder is clearly indicative of his own aspirations in the party. It's not what's best for democracy, or the base. It's what's best for him.

Shine on ... "Statue de la Liberté". </snark>

Atlantic Free Press

by ghandi (expatforums@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 at 04:09:32 PM EST

And then Chris Floyd just sent me his response... he's pretty busy with some work but had time enough to unload this in an email.

Dear Rich,

Yeah, great. Bush can stay in office for two more years and kill
another half a million Iraqis and Afghans and a few thousand more
Americans, and that will be just peachy keen. Then he will exit to an
honored and rich retirement and not give a hoot in hell whether he's
considered the worst president or not. Jesus Christ, impeachment is
not about making Bush look bad or feel bad, or whether or not it
positions Kos' buddies for plum jobs in some incoming Dem
administration; it's about the LAW OF THE LAND, which Bush and Cheney
have violated 13 ways to Sunday.

And how the hell Kos thinks the Democrats are going to be able to
enact some sweeping progressive agenda (assuming they even try), when
they don't have a filibuster-proof majority nor enough votes to
override a presidential veto is beyond me. "People will be held
accountable." How, exactly? The Bushists have already said they'll
fight ever subpoena and demand for documents all the way to the
Supreme Court; they'll stall every investigation for two years then,
like Bush, exit to sweet deals in retirement, through the golden
revolving door in the corporate/lobbying/consulting/academic world.
Where then is the accountability?

I don't really have a dog in this hunt: I have never believed for a
single instant that the Democrats would have balls or brains to even
seriously threaten impeachment, much less pursue it. But by God, if
some of them want to try, I don't think we should come over all snooty
and snotty and pour cold water on them. Too bad Kos wasn't around to
dispense his wisdom in 1974: "Why impeach Nixon? He'll be gone in two
years anyway. What's the big deal? We've got control of Congres