American Pie (Fight?)

by afew
Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 11:45:40 AM EDT

(The title is deliberately provocative. There is nothing below but a sincere but sketchy attempt to jot down some thoughts about Americans and Europeans, and it represents no more than my imperfect understanding of the situation. There are plenty of objections to a good many of the points I raise. Just trying to move things forward a bit...)

Recent discussions here (here and here, for example), and on DKos have emphasized that dialogue between Americans and Europeans is increasingly difficult. We don't understand each other, and it seems to be getting worse, not better.


When I say "worse, not better", I'm thinking in the short term (the last few years, and even over the last year), but also in the relatively long term. From my own recollection, it was certainly much easier for Americans and Europeans to agree at the time of the Vietnam War and particularly during the Nixon years (so why don't Iraq and Dubya produce the same effect, one may wonder?). But there was a much more radical critique of Amerika among Americans then, both from hardened left campaigners and young baby-boomers -- and it was Americans who were spreading that critique elsewhere in the world. The draft may well have had a lot to do with that, by radicalising middle-class youth, and by setting off a movement of draft-dodgers to other countries. Back then was also the high point of a long upswing of progressive values in America, through the Depression and New Deal years to the Sixties and the final achievements of the Civil Rights movement. Perhaps most of all, the headiness of the youth revolution of the Sixties, the brusque movement towards sexual and cultural emancipation, was shared between the States and European countries. It was a generation thing.

Since then the conservative backlash -- almost a Reconquista -- has significantly swung the American political compass rightwards. A whole heap of boomers dropped their radicalism and joined the mainstream, partly thanks to the glorification of business, of the enterprise, in the Reagan years. Younger generations have since grown up with a number of changes in cultural and sexual mores as given -- things to defend, since they're under attack from the Christian right, but with none of the elation of breaking the taboos in the first place.

These points are true of Europe too, to some extent, but have had less far-reaching effects. It's generally fair to say that a difference exists here -- overall, the American political spectrum at the moment is further to the right than the European (with the possible partial exception of Britain). And this is one source of misunderstanding.

Arrogance

But another obstacle that is often in evidence is that Americans (again, I'm talking about Americans on this blog, on DKos, on other progressive blogs), experience European commentary as arrogant, condescending. I'm not thinking just of knee-jerk reactions on DKos (which may even come from MC Kos himself or other principals), but of words like these that I believe deeper and more thoughtful:

From NearlyNormal:

Sheesh we are doing the best we can.  I think its a shame that we are in such a shitty state to begin with, but really, there are a lot of us trying our best to shove this big son-of-a-bitch in the right (make that left) direction.  I think you are discounting the generally positive movement. <...>

Maybe I'm being foolish here, but I really like this place and respect you guys and its a shame imho to see the attitude of cynical superiority.  Keep the superiority if you must but drop the cynicism.  Lots of us are trying.

From MillMan:

There is also the paternalistic attitude toward America and every other country for that matter woven into the fabric of European cultures. That's what drives us crazy, or at least disappoints us.

Though I take these comments seriously, I have to report that they surprise me. Let me just get two things out of the way first:

  1. there are different idioms at work. A lot of people here don't have English as their first language, and those who do (mostly British and Irish) don't express themselves in the same English as Americans do. That does not signify we are being stuck-up, toffee-nosed, elitist, or any of these things we get accused of. Before Americans object that they're in fact aware of this, I'd just ask them always to be aware of it. People don't have to speak the American vernacular to be just plain folks;

  2. cynicism: NearlyNormal's response was to an admittedly cynical comment from Bad Colman, and it's an understandable reaction. But please bear in mind that our sense of humour is not quite like yours, we play with irony and cynicism more than you do (in general), and above all we apply it to ourselves and each other. It is obviously up to us to bear in mind the difference too, when we write, to avoid giving offence.

Arrogance, condescension, a superior attitude, may of course exist in some individuals and on some occasions, it would be useless to deny that. But the accusation is levelled routinely and on occasions where it doesn't seem entirely justified to Europeans, meaning we are astonished to hear that we come across as arrogant, and are at a loss to see how. (Was Jérôme's diary yesterday arrogant and condescending, or angry and provocative?) My feeling is that the frequency of these accusations has to do with perception: Americans perceive their relation with Europeans as one in which they are looked down on.

And that's what surprises me, and no doubt other Europeans, because we have a different perception of that relation. It springs from America's position as the world's greatest power throughout all our lifetimes. It's not just a question of military and diplomatic power, though that counts. It's enormously a question of economic power, and of cultural power acting as a conductor for economic power. I sometimes wonder how far Americans (non-expats) fully realize the extent to which American culture -- language, music, TV, films, food, popular culture, corporate culture, ways of being, working, doing business -- has permeated the world and become standard since the mid-20th century. Speaking of higher culture, of art, how often has it been noted that the centre of the world's artistic activity moved to New York with WWII? What basis is there in this for Europeans feeling superior to Americans? And there is another factor at work here, that of corporate and financial capitalism-based propaganda in favour of, essentially, the American way of organising society and business, run through pet think-tanks, pundits, and the world's English-language media that influences so strongly the rest of the world's media. Then there is the special variety of neo-colonialist hegemony practised by America (Amerika?) and that only the neo-cons call "empire" to its face. The European experience of all this is not akin to a downward-looking, ivory-tower view, but more the sensation of living in America's shadow. If anything, the perception Europeans have of the "psychological" balance between them and Americans is the converse of that relation as perceived by Americans.

So possibly what I'm saying is that you can't feel paternalistic towards an 800-pound gorilla (unless you're a 1600-pound gorilla yourself). Or can you?

Frankly, I think that European paternalism is worn out. It might just be held to apply to former colonies which have become neo-colonial stake-outs. The USA just doesn't fall into that category, not at all. More into the category of those countries that can be paternalistic here and there...

Is this getting us anywhere?

It doesn't look much like it for the moment. But I think there's another difference between us that contributes to misunderstanding (of the kind: astonishment on both sides), and it resides in the nature of our views of our own public discourse and public life. Some progressive Americans maintain a critical distance from belief in the nation and its founding myths -- the Founding Fathers, the Constitution, if not the Exemplary Nation (the city on a hill), at least the country that tries -- but most share sincerely in that belief. Here's a comment from Migeru (that you're free to discount if you think it's over the top, I'm quoting it as the view of a European who recently spent several years living in America):

...even after all that we know Bush has done in the past 6 years, it seems to be an open question whether a groundswell of outrage can be generated in the American public. Because to admit what Bush has done flies in the face of the myths that underpin America as a nation and define Americans as citizens. It is a question of faith, if being American is a religion the Constitution is scripture and the President is the High Priest, and people will rather deny the evidence before their eyes than deny their faith.

You will not find belief in the nation anywhere in Europe, including Britain. We have no faith in our nations, states, or supra-national structures. Post-modern nationalist or regionalist identity movements exist, but that's precisely what they are, no more, and they don't signify positive belief in the nation. We come from generations of devastation and massacre. We have built a peace on ruins, and Germany was not the only country to start from zero, to some extent we all did (the UK held a gratifying position, but even then...). Behind us we have the swathes of dead of World Wars I and II and genocide, on our own territory, and a long history of shifting borders defined by war. We don't have the deceptively short and the deceptively simple history of the USA, and we don't have Americans' more direct and positive attitudes. At the risk of sounding condescending -- but that truly isn't the case -- I'd say a great deal of American civic culture is primary compared to the secondary, tertiary, even highly convoluted civic culture of Europeans. I'm not making a value judgement there. Europeans may have the critical distance, Americans have the oomph.

We can learn from each other, and perhaps we'd better. In any case, the differences aren't going to disappear by magic. If we go on not understanding them (or preferably trying to make capital out of them), I'm afraid we are going to stop talking to each other.

If we want to go on talking, could we think of these points that I'm setting down quickly? Is it possible that Americans might see a bit more where Europeans are coming from, and be less defensive, less prompt to ascribe European attitudes to arrogance or elitism? Is it possible that Europeans seek genuine dialogue through fully appreciating the differences in attitudes to public life? Could Americans be less innocent about the projection of US power in the world? Could Europeans take on some of the positive American spirit, and try harder?

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Much respect to you.

Could Americans be less innocent about the projection of US power in the world? Could Europeans take on some of the positive American spirit, and try harder?

The whole article sums up what I was thinking yesterday. Thank you.

The only thing necessary for the persistence of evil is for enough good people to do nothing

by deviousdiva (thedeviousdiva@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 11:54:34 AM EDT
Thank you, deviousdiva! It's good to know I'm not alone in thinking like this.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:10:24 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
This is a great diary, afew.

I ofter think about the fundamental difference in outlook between Americans and Europeans. Americans have a can-do attitude that leads them to try harder, and Europeans a jaded cynicism that leads us to not try hard enough. Then again, no amount of trying harder in the wrong direction will lead to success [see Iraq], but if you don't try you won't accomplish anything.

These attitudes get forged in the educational system. I very often had to tell my American students (to their disbelief) that no, you don't get "points for effort" if the effort is misdirected.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:19:27 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Recent discussions here (here and here, for example), and on DKos have emphasized that dialogue between Americans and Europeans is increasingly difficult. We don't understand each other, and it seems to be getting worse, not better.

When I say "worse, not better", I'm thinking in the short term (the last few years, and even over the last year), but also in the relatively long term. From my own recollection, it was certainly much easier for Americans and Europeans to agree at the time of the Vietnam War and particularly during the Nixon years (so why don't Iraq and Dubya produce the same effect, one may wonder?).

Is it possible that it is harder to agree because we undertand ourselves and each other better?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:14:00 PM EDT
What's possible, (as we've said elsewhere) is that the boomer generation was fairly naïve back then. There were plenty of illusions and delusions about how far "the movement" was ahead, and how easy it was going to be to change the world.

As to whether we understand each other better now, I strongly doubt it.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:36:11 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
... you would understand how well you already understand us. There is, after all, so little to understand. Voilà.

So, here I am in Ravenna. Where exactly was the Rubicon, again?
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 03:39:04 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
but I think the way the Boomers were most naive was in their buying into the age-old "basic niceness of Americans" argument: People are essentially the same everywhere; Americans are fundamentally good and decent; once their "consciousness" is raised high enough, all will be right with the world.

Then came the 2004 election, when 66% of the American electorate was not "good and decent" enough to vote against a lying, thieving, criminally incompetent torturer and warmonger. The result was massive cognitive dissonance, which a lot of left-leaning Americans have sought to resolve by falling back on the "People are essentially the same everywhere" argument but with an ugly twist. You see it in every thread on dKos where "foreigners" dare to comment: Europeans, in particular the French, are "just as bad as Americans" or(when the dissonance reaches a peak) "exactly the same except much, much worse."

by Matt in NYC on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 04:19:15 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Europeans, in particular the French, are "just as bad as Americans" or(when the dissonance reaches a peak) "exactly the same except much, much worse."

You may be onto something... Is the shocking discovery that America, the land of the Free, is just as bad (or worse(?)) as the nations from which it strived to be different after it seceded?

Perhaps it's part a phase of denial and/or re-adjustment to the dis-illusion of finding out that the New World can behave just as atrocious as the Old World...

The core of evil is a lack of empathy

by Nomad on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 07:52:32 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
You ought to write a diary about it.

My thoughts exactly.

Of course, everything has something wrong with it.

And Nirvana and human perfection are all around the last bend.

Last bend is a bit tricky.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 09:00:43 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Good stuff, me duck!

One point I would make is that there is a difference between America the state, and America the nation (though of course "We the people" ultimately decide on the methodology of the state. Or do they?)

If I lambast America, it is almost always the state I am aiming at - not at individuals - especially our friends here.

But another point - most Europeans have forgotten their nationalism, except for sports. When I was a kid, when the last movie finished, we all stood for the Queen as the anthem played. Some people even stood at home when the BBC shut down for the night.

That has all gone. And which is why we find it hard to understand the role of the US Flag in everyday life. Europeans have a different take, IMO, on what individual freedoms mean. For us, it is more to be oneself, to aspire to express individual feelings, and to appreciate diversity in others. Yes, we have that 13 starred EU flag - which also sits on this masthead - but we are never going to salute it. Instead we will turn to our neighbour, hold our right hand to our heart and say - maybe - 'Salaam' which means peace. Or we could say 'Shalom' or 'Terve'. So we'd rather salute each other than a flag.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:14:17 PM EDT
But I also understand that it could be difficult to follow some the double or even triple-snarking that goes on round here - some conversation have more levels than a Russian doll (though most of the Russian dolls I've met had only one level)

Irony is one of those literary devices that doesn't always travel well. ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:17:21 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
That's a good twisty metaphor about the Russian dolls.
by Quentin on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 02:17:43 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Errrm, I could read this as ET being anti-women.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 05:16:41 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Just wait till Lana sees Sven's joke.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 05:22:51 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
It is important to remember that the Triloqvist Method - the search for innovative wit, driven by nostalgia for the Algonquin Round Table - has at its core the dismissal of all factual evidence - except for the single anecdotal inspiration that formulated the original thought.

The bon mots are far more important that any notions of correctness ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 04:29:33 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
And you're never short of bons mots...

"Ne te courbe que pour aimer..." René Char
by Melanchthon on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 09:03:09 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I try, mon ami, I try ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Dec 10th, 2006 at 04:49:20 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
In the US the National Anthem still gets played at public events and people stand in attention for it. The first time this happened to me what at a classical music concert and I just sat there in disbelief.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:20:48 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
You know it gets quite amazing. And its getting worse. Last year, I was in a stage race in Nebraska, the initial stage of which was held in some state park outside of Lincoln, NE. No spectators there really at all, the spectators here normally are along the circuit and at the finish. And yet, they played the national frickin' anthem, for the benefit only of the riders and race officials, no doubt to get up our patriotic fever before riding 150 km.

This had never happened to me before, but of course it was also the first time I raced in Nebraska.

I was dumbfounded.

Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

by redstar on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:32:12 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Just think that at international sports events Spanish players have no anthem lyrics to sing and fans are reduced to humming along (which they have taken to do wuite noisily in later years, something I find wuite amusing and am sure is done for the amusement value). The anthem never gets played at a domestic sports event unless the King is present (like, for instance, the final of the Copa del Rey - but it is the final of the national knock-out tournament and the King is in attendance). Every sports event in the US involves playing the anthem.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:36:37 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I hate the WQERTY keyboard layout.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:40:25 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I remember the ongoing arguments in the 90's whether to play the national anthem before the games of the NSL, with the skippy soccer mob argued it would help re-assure a "mainstream" audience while the wogball mob argued it was a cultural cringe import from America (which argument itself is a form of cultural cringe).

In the end with the establishment of the A-league, it was the corporate sponsors who got to decide, and so the anthem stayed.


So, here I am in Ravenna. Where exactly was the Rubicon, again?

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 11:28:52 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
nationalism. You'll spend the next three hours explaining the very word "nationalism" (I had a fairly decent education, but I don't remember ever learning about it in school, as opposed to endless "units" on Communism). And then prepare to argue for another three or four hours to persuade them that nationalism isn't necessarily an unmitigatedly wonderful political philosophy.

En passant, this is also why you have almost no chance of ever having an intelligent conversation about Zionism in the U.S. Even educated Americans are unfamiliar with the most basic concepts you need to analyze it.
 

by Matt in NYC on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 04:29:15 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
This is the most trenchant comment I have seen in a year.  It sums it all up.  I get flamed on DKos for drawing distinctions of fact (like the fact that there were no "communist" "exterminations" in Vietnam when the War ended - and that the US supported the genocidaires in Kampuchea) - and for questioning nationalism.  

The US' accelerating slide into ignorance reminds me of something Orwell said about the goal of Duckspeak - to render critical thought impossible.  Well, in the US we have privatized the Ministry of Truth - and our media are putting the Nazis, the Soviets, and MiniTru to shame.

by cambridgemac on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 12:04:36 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
I had a rare chance to peek into World History exam papers of US College freshmen and there was a tendency to cast everything in American terms regardless of the country and time period involved. For instance, one Student wrote that "China had a system of Checks and Balances". This, to me, showed the damage that "civics" classes do to American High School students. It equips them with a collection of set phrases and poorly undestood concepts with no critical thinking and no context. It is next to impossible to have a sensible conversation with them about politics outside the US (national or international).

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 04:41:42 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
the fact that there were no "communist" "exterminations" in Vietnam when the War ended

Do you mean that whatever was wasn't communist (but say nationalist), or that it wasn't extermination (but say a purge), or that there was no significant post-victory bloodshed?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 04:13:57 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
National anthem? How about the frickin' "Pledge to allegiance" we had to recite every day of my elementary, junior high and high school. <jeez>

I pledge to allegiance,
to the flag
of the United States of America
And to the republic, for which it stands,
One nation, under God,
Indivisable, with liberty and justice for all.

Did I get thatt right, mah fellow Americans? <damn> if one day I develop Alzheimer's its going to be one of the few things I'll remember, it is so deeply set in my long.term memory...<sigh>

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!

by whataboutbob on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 09:42:59 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Is that still done nowadays?

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--
by tzt (tztmail at gmail dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 10:41:30 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
And woe be it to anyone who suggests that the "under God" part be taken out.

On a tangent, I was shocked (and believe me, I'm not easily shocked) to learn recently that as late as the early 1960s Jewish kids in NYC area public schools were forced to recite the Protestant version of the Our Father/"Lord's Prayer." At least, that practice is no more.    

by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 12:24:01 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Every day for your entire pre-college school life.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 11:15:27 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Not any more.

A generation ago, it was nearly impossible to get through the American public school system without learning the oath - and equally impossible to forget it after so much practice.

The wane of the pledge from American life is more tied to indifference than passion, says Barbara Truesdell, assistant director of Indiana University's Center for the Study of History and Memory.

"It used to be we'd hear it at town meetings and public gatherings," she says. Now, "it's just not a part of daily life."

The decline is perhaps most apparent in the classroom - particularly blue-state high schools.

"I don't know of any high schools in the area in which the pledge is recited daily. It isn't here," admits a superintendent of a largely liberal suburban Boston school district who asked not to be named because of how contentious the subject can be. "If I insisted on it being recited here - which is not my plan or desire - my career would begin a quick and flaming descent."


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1207/p20s01-legn.html
by asdf on Sun Dec 10th, 2006 at 10:41:40 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Heheheh.  You know Matt Groening, creator of The Simpsons?  Before he did that, he was a cartoonist, and he had one of his characters, I think it was Bongo (a rabbit) say a "modified" pledge.

OK, I'm going to do this from memory...

I plead alignment
to the flakes
of the untitled snakes of a merry cow
and to the Republicans
for which they scam
one nacho, underpants
with licorice and jugs of wine for owls.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 11:11:16 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Where was that concert?
by Quentin on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 02:13:05 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Here, in late 2000.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 02:18:59 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Where's 'here'? Internet? Great Britain? It's not customary (in fact it's completely bizarre) to play the national anthem before a concert.
by Quentin on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 02:32:26 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
You could follow the link. It was at the municipal auditorium in Riverside, CA.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 02:34:00 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I've gone to very, very many concerts in the U.S. and never had the experience. Sorry, I didn't think of the link. I'm still a bit (to say the least) backwards when it comes to internet gadgets. Why do we write internet with an upper-case letter: like Television and Telephone?
by Quentin on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 02:48:04 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
There are many telephones in the world, but there is only one Internet.
by Trond Ove on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 02:23:46 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
The Internet and the World Wide Web are two separate components. The Internet is the infrastructure ('pipes'), the www is the data handling (pumps)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Dec 10th, 2006 at 04:54:19 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
www is one data handling (the html-based), though nowadays the others (ftp, gopher, usenet) are marginalised, except for the newer p2p.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sun Dec 10th, 2006 at 06:25:29 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Of course - I was merely pointing out (ineffectively) that many people confuse the two terms.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Dec 10th, 2006 at 06:55:19 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Noooooooo!

There are much more datat handling possibilities than the www. To name one you probably use: email.

But there are others too.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Dec 10th, 2006 at 06:29:10 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
For me, the astonishing thing is the National Anthem played before matches between domestic clubs. Why not the club anthems, or a league anthem?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 05:18:52 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I was astonished to see this happen in Finland. Jokerit of Helsinki played against HIFK of Helsinki and before the game started there was the Finnish national anthem and the crowd stood up. I cannot figure out what that was about. Someone had watched too many NHL games I guess and then copied the custom.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--
by tzt (tztmail at gmail dot com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 06:06:23 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
That has all gone. And which is why we find it hard to understand the role of the US Flag in everyday life. Europeans have a different take, IMO, on what individual freedoms mean. For us, it is more to be oneself, to aspire to express individual feelings, and to appreciate diversity in others. Yes, we have that 13 starred EU flag
The EU flag has 12 stars and the Danes use theirs just as much as the Americans (for instance, they decorate birthday cakes with flags and when IKEA was first introduced into Denmark its colours were white and red, not the Swedish blue and yellow - I suppose the Swedes are also very attached to their national colours?)

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:24:14 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
12, 13, 27 what's the difference? ;-=

You'll see flags in Finland on special days - it is the job of the building caretaker to have it up and down at the right time. You'll see flags if Finland win the world ice hockey championship again. But it is just a picture - something that stands for far more than a state.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:34:03 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
My new neighbor has his flag out permanently. But he is a far-right bozo with a penchant for appearance (always walks in 'traditional' clothes), representing a small minority of freaks (even within the far-right).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 05:25:18 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 12:32:00 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
What you linked is traditional festive wear for peasants. Here you can see a less colorful 'traditional' bourgeois wear (this look is actually more late 19th/early 20th century that aimed to reproduce clothing centuries earlier, but was in no small part fantasy). What my neighbour dresses in is an even funnier cross of the two, e.g. a shape like the second and on it a colorful needlework like the first.

BTW, just today I noticed that he took off the flag, when he put up Christmas lights (yes, that energy-wasting madness is creeping over here, too).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 01:00:56 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
The difference is that the starts are explicitly not intended to count the member states. That's why 12 and not 27.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:37:20 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Pray enlighten us as to the specific origins of the 12 - and I mean the explicit meaning.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:40:08 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
On 8 December 1955 the Committee of Ministers adopted this as the European flag. "Against the blue sky of the Western world, the stars represent the peoples of Europe in a circle, the symbol of unity. Their number shall be invariably set at twelve, the symbol of completeness and perfection ... just like the twelve signs of the zodiac represent the whole universe, the twelve gold stars stand for all peoples of Europe - including those who cannot as yet take part in building up Europe in unity and peace." The Council of Europe from the beginning desired it to be used by other regional organisations seeking European integration.


Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:42:06 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I stand corrected.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 02:46:17 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
there is a difference between America the state, and America the nation

Quite, but it's difficult in a piece like that to keep on pointing out you're aware of that, and of wanting to avoid generalising about all Americans, and of wanting to talk about progressive Americans and particularly those who comment on blogs and particularly here... I used the old "Amerika" a couple of times to signify the state, the military-industrial complex, rather than the notional nation America or the American people.

On flags and national pride -- I'm glad we don't do this in Europe. I think it's pro-gress. What I'd like is to see us have more enthusiasm and will to try to do things.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:43:06 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
One detail I disagree on with you is this. Europe is still full of nationalists, and often nationalists of a variety less flag-waving than violently chauvinistic, even if with lesser frequency in Western Europe. I'd say the two main differences of American nationalism are (1) how widespread it is in the population, (2) how naive and subconscious it is.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 05:30:37 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I'm not saying there are no nationalists in Europe. But your use of "still" implies a continuity that only concerns a small minority. And I am saying the American way of relating to the nation is specific and not to be found in Europe (whatever the efforts of post-modern "identity" fanatics).

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 05:39:03 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I'm not saying there are no nationalists in Europe. But your use of "still" implies a continuity that only concerns a small minority

Western Europeans have this occasionally annoying tendency to forget about the rest of the continent...

And I am saying the American way of relating to the nation is specific and not to be found in Europe

Take France, add the identity as an immigrant nation and subtract the French experience of horrible victory  (WWI) and defeat (WWII).

by MarekNYC on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 05:52:24 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
NB - the notion of rabid nationalism as having declined to a small minority is a sad joke for anyone observing Poland today. Imagine a government made up of a mix of de-Villiers and Le Pen ( in the context of much weaker norms of political correctness), with the main opposition as the more hardline nationalist Gaullists, add a strong mix of fundy political Catholicism which openly describes Franco's Spain circa nineteen forty something as their ideological wet dream, statues going up to Poland's most prominent fascist in the center of Warsaw to great acclaim governmental (and the dismissal of those who find that just a bit objectionable as self-hating Poles or sellouts to the West or Stalinists or conscious agents of Satan), and you'll begin to get an idea.
by MarekNYC on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 06:23:58 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Given the very low participation in the last elections, the thing I wonder about is how much this reflects popular thinking.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 06:32:00 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Given the very low participation in the last elections, the thing I wonder about is how much this reflects popular thinking.

Who knows. I'd imagine that those who don't vote are less political than the others - whether vaguely social-liberal young people in the thriving cities or vaguely fundy in the impoverished countryside. Though there's also increasingly the question of the effect of mass migration to Western Europe on voting patterns. That probably hurts the PO most of all - much younger than average, and somewhat more educated, and young university educated people are the PO's strongest demographic.

by MarekNYC on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 at 07:32:26 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

add the identity as an immigrant nation

I agree with the rest, but I disagree with this bit. France is just as much an immigration nation as the USA, and sees itself as one. The integration takes a totally different form (assimilation, "nos ancêtres les gaulois", etc), but that's another point.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 04:51:31 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
France is just as much an immigration nation as the USA

I think this is one of those terms that means different things to different people.  In the American context, "immigrant nation" doesn't mean "a nation with a lot of immigrants," it means "a nation where (almost) everyone is descended from immigrants."  In other words, part of that American national myth that redstar was talking about, i.e. "we're all immigrants."  I doubt that France thinks of itself as a nation of immigrants in the same way.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 05:22:31 AM EDT
[ Parent ]

I doubt that France thinks of itself as a nation of immigrants in the same way.

Because all immigrants become French, not hyphenated French. Their status as immigrants is irrelevant.

But we are a nation where (almost) everyone is descended from immigrants.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 08:00:32 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
this hyphen-American concept is total rubbish.  Migeru even says downthread that Americans consider themselves hyphen-Americans 10 generations back.  That is absurd.  10 generations back you don't even know the mix of country backgrounds in your blood.  

your confusion may be that Americans that are a couple of generations away from the "old country" are usually curious and interested in where there ancestors come from.  But you are totally off base in thinking you understand America on this point.  this is a great example of either not understanding, or just trashing America.

I wonder too if those young people rioting last year just consider themselves French?  

by wchurchill on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 01:06:52 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Ot are you projecting you own trashing thoughts on what I wrote? I just said that you have that concept of hyphenated Americans, and France does not. Whether it is rubbish or not does not eliminate the fact that it exists, which makes the concept of what it is to be American different to the concept of being French. "Different", not better or worse. Jeez.

As to this:


I wonder too if those young people rioting last year just consider themselves French?  

If you read ET at that time or later, you'd know that the answer to that is an unambiguous and resounding YES.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 02:09:54 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
You know, it would seem that Americans that take "different" as anti-Americanism just show that they cannot imagine that there could be anything better than America, and thus foreigners that claim to be "different" without acknowledging "inferior" at the same time are fully guilty of America-bashing, because they don't admit that America is better.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 02:10:52 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
When Barbara and I decided to come "back home to Europe" people were genuinely sad for us, and kept asking whether there was something they could to to help us stay. As if we were going to fall off the egde of a cliff, or something. The thought that someone could leave the US for another place voluntarily was genuinely shocking to them. I believe Bob has relayed a similar experience, in his case of an American leaving.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 02:28:36 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I had a somewhat similar experience when returning from West Germany. My classmates wondered why we don't just stay, by wondering I mean completely perplexed. Though, in that case, we left an in many ways really better place, plus there was returning into a dictatorship (despite the news of changes, no one knew in advance that it will really be over a year later).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 06:55:34 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
If your friends were young Americans, with little international experience, I guess I could understand that.  But I have a feeling you're going to tell me they were not.  Or, if they were from rural America, and hadn't travelled at all and have little appreciation for life outside of America--I wouldn't be shocked.  But I've never thought of Berkeley as rural, so I don't think that's the case either.

But this is absolutely not the reaction that my friends would have.  In fact, it is quite common among my group of acquaintances for people to go back to their home country.  I have an Indian friend who has gone back.  I have another Indian friend that is retired, and spends about 40%, he and his wife, of his time in India.  They have family there,,,it just is not at all surprising, and literally no one is sad for them, or thinks they've fallen off the cliff.  The same with Europe.  I have an English friend who thinks "America is the place to earn a living, because you're not caught up ina class system, and the economic system allows hard work to move you to the top", but, he says, "Europe is the place to retire,,,Europeans know how to live the better life, with the culture, etc."  We'll see on him--his kids are still fairly young, and they seem pretty American to me,,,,I'm not sure if he and his wife will want to be away from them, and the grandkids--down the road.

I would like to someday have a place in London, and spend a significant amount of time there.  It's my favorite city in the world--too bad about the prices.  -:}

I could continue with these examples, because I have many--and vice versa as well,,,Americans living in Europe and staying,,,others coming back.

It is just not accurate to generalise the reactions you describe to Americans.

by wchurchill on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 03:43:43 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
that this was a tribute to how much they liked the two of you?
by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 04:03:57 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Barbara, yes. Me, not so much.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 09:49:55 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Yes, indeed, very similar. And now that I have left, I hardly hear from anyone anymore (unless I initiate the contact). But, I adandoned them, after all, so what should I expect? (Truly I'm not bitter, but definitely sad at times...)

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Mon Dec 11th, 2006 at 02:50:02 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
your snooty Cartesian logic!

</snark>

by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 04:21:36 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I just want to say for the record that I did not in any way interpret your comment as "trashing" Americans.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 05:33:43 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Let's deal with the hyphen American comment first.  Why do you think that?  The first generation may have said they were Irish american,,,and textbooks in describing the immigration trends may use that term.  so I can accept that some immigrants who come, and are the first generation, may refer, depending upon the context of the conversation, to themselves that way.

My black friends think of themselves as American.  My Norweigan, Italian, Irish,etc friends think of themselves as American.  My Indian friends think of themselves as American.  

So explain why you think this please.

by wchurchill on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 03:26:34 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
That's not Jerome's point. Of course they think of themselves as American, but if they're typical Americans they still crave an ancestral identity (or identities). Look how popular DNA testing is.
by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 04:18:03 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
DNA testing, or genealogy research.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 05:09:44 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
but DNA testing -- at least initially -- costs a lot more than geneological research, so I think its popularity is even more of a sign of how much Americans want to know who they really are. Plus, who doesn't love to be dazzled by Science?
by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 08:09:07 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
because I AM one of those less-than-two-generations hyphenated Americans, but I've never met an (unadopted) American who couldn't give you a fairly comprehensive inventory of their ancestry. I particularly love the people that will say, "Oh, I'm one-sixteenth Cherokee, one-eighth French, one-sixteenth Polish ..." (usually adding up to what would be about 1-5/16 human beings in less diverse countries).
by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 04:13:04 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
this hyphen-American concept is total rubbish.  Migeru even says downthread that Americans consider themselves hyphen-Americans 10 generations back.  That is absurd.  10 generations back you don't even know the mix of country backgrounds in your blood.

Ten generations, sure - there we're talking about those who are descended from before the big 1880-1920 wave of immigration. But from then on it gets different. Perhaps not out west where the Italians and Irish and Poles no longer have any ties to the old village-like urban enclaves, but in the Northeast and the metropolitan areas of the industrial Midwest things are different.  Here you get fourth generation Italian kids going wild over Italy's soccer team, waving their flags as they run through the streets. Kids who don't follow soccer, have never been to Italy, and don't speak any Italian - but they sure as hell are Italian, and Italy won.

This town is a mosaic of tribes and sub-tribes for whom their ethnic identity is an essential part of both their intense local identity and their national (American) one.  Even when they  move out into the suburbs they retain their ethnic identities, thus giving us phenomena like Congressman Peter King (R/Sinn Fein-NY) whose Irish Republican allegiance takes precedence over his US Republican one.  

The new immigrants here have been replicating the same pattern - settling in concentrated groups, filling their neighbourhoods with markers of the old country - all as part of the process of assimilation.  My impression is that this is also true of Latino and Asian immigrants in California.

by MarekNYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 04:17:13 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
will still get you big laughs, even though there are only like 4.3 Jews left in those regions.
by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 04:25:18 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Do you also get to hear Kohn & Grün jokes?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 06:48:49 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
I feel cheated! Are there any you could share on the Net?
by Matt in NYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 08:10:44 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
None I can find in English. But you can read of them on the Wiki page on Hungarian jokes (though AFAIK Kohn & Grün were known all across the Habsburg Empire). Here is one example.

Kohn suffers from a guilty conscience, because he had a fallout with Grün and feels it was his own fault. So he goes to the rabbi, tells him the story and asks for advice.
"You have to say sorry!"
"Do I really have to say sorry?"
"Definitely."
"Can I also do it on the telephone?"
"Yes."
Hearing this, Kohn goes home and dials Grün's number. The other end of the line answers:
"Hallo?"
"Hallo... is that Mr. Smith?"
"No, I1m Mr. Grün."
"Then sorry."

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 08:30:52 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
and thanks for the great link, too.
by Matt in NYC on Sun Dec 10th, 2006 at 09:15:45 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
I agree that Americans for several generations love to talk about their genealogy,,,,1/16 this, 1/8 that.  and in the first few generations may stay close to one of their countries of heritage, due to relatives they may know, soccer teams they may follow.  and then they have to pick which soccer team they like best,,,because they're half, something, and 1/4 something else, and then again.  it's all part of the melting pot effect in America.  but I didn't take the hyphen-American comment to mean that at all,,,but rather the opposite, that Americans stay divided,,,which they don't.

I guess my experience in Chicago and California is that these enclaves break down over a generation or two.  The German area in Chicago I believe is now Latino, with people moving out to the suburbs, or just marrying and moving.  In California I live in an area that is 40% Asian (lots of countries when I say Asian) and 60% everything else.  However the various China town areas do seem to maintain their Asian roots--but some of that seems business related.  Like in that area in London just south of Soho,,,very Chinese/Asian it would seem, and everyone knows where to go to get various varieties of Chinese food.

by wchurchill on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 06:05:42 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
But of St. Patrick's Day, even 1/1024th Irish-Americans are 100% Irish-Americans, no?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 06:50:00 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
It's the "we're all from elsewhere" or the profusion of hyphenated-Americans.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 05:55:54 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
Precisely.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 05:59:15 AM EDT
[ Parent ]
The integration takes a totally different form (assimilation, "nos ancêtres les gaulois", etc), but that's another point.

Actually that is the point.

by MarekNYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 12:32:07 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
That France is not a country of immigration? That it does not see itself as such? That it is not seen as such?

It is a country of immigration, where immigrants are expected to become French. How is that different from the USA, a country of immigrants where immigrants are expected to become Americans?

Are you saying that the way the French define being French somehow negates the fact that it is a country of immigrants?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 12:43:23 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Immigrants are expected to become hyphented-Americans, so even if they're 10 generations away from immigrants, they still think they're from elsewhere. That is the difference.

France is a country of French people, regardless of your origins which, to boot, it is illegal to keep track of.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 12:46:40 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
That's what I understood in Marek's first comment already, too. I get the feeling that we hit on a nation-myth as difficult to communicate about with a French believer as about those redstar mentioned with most Americans.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 12:52:37 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
Are you saying that the way the French define being French somehow negates the fact that it is a country of immigrants?

This discussion is about national identity - i.e. self identification. So it has to do with self perception, and the way Americans relate to the immigrant experience is very, very different than the way the French do.  To take one example, the political calendar of NYC, and every other old line city, is littered with celebrations of its constituent groups - St. Patrick's  Day, Columbus Day, Puerto Rican Day, gay pride day, MLK day, etc - waving their flags as they march down Fifth Ave, with every local politician jockeying for a place at the front of the parade. Affirmative action and de facto ethnic quotas have a long history here predating the Civil Rights movement and were used as a way of integrating the various groups.

by MarekNYC on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 02:15:26 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
interesting... we're mostly in agreement on the facts - but we still seem to end up with totally different conclusions...

I fully agree with what you say on national identity. The one thing I don't like is when Europe in general, and France in particular, is described as a place not welcoming to immigrants, which is the logical next step (which YOU did not make) of the point you state about integration.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sat Dec 9th, 2006 at 06:19:21 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
The one thing I don't like is when Europe in general, and France in particular, is described as a place not welcoming to immigrants, which is the logical next step (which YOU did not make) of the point you state about integration.

Well I might make it, though it would be even France, not particularly France, - I think it's pretty clear that there is considerable anti-immigrant feeling in France and that there is a racial component to it - but that's  obviously true in the US as well. In fact just now it's been stronger in the US, but that goes in waves in both countries so the reverse has been true as well.

I also think that Germany is substantially more unwelcoming than either France or the US - think of the Christian Democrats campaign against changing the law to grant children of long term permanent residents citizenship.

Where I have problems with France has to do with my liking of the hyphenated model, and my instinctive distaste as an American liberal for what is effectively a model very similar to the one promoted by the pro-immigration faction of the US right, albeit embedded in a very different historical context.