European Tribune

European Breakfast - Feb. 15

by Fran
Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:16:13 AM EST

“The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.”

William Shakespeare


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EUROPEAN NEWS
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:17:03 AM EST
Independent: Thousands protest ahead of 'Polish plumber' vote

Tens of thousands of protesters jammed the streets of Strasbourg as the fate of the law at the heart of the EU's economic reform plans prompted fierce last-minute wrangling.

MEPs were holding tense talks ahead of a crucial vote tomorrow on the proposed so-called services directive, which prompted fears in France of an invasion of Polish plumbers. Although the measure is certain to be watered down, the precise outcome of the vote on more than 400 amendments in the European Parliament will be seen as a yardstick of the EU's commitment to economic reform.

It is also a chance for the parliament to extend its influence since, if it delivers a large majority in favour of a compromise, it will be hard for member states or the European Commission to overturn it.

The row in France over the services directive was widely blamed for contributing to the country's "no" vote in a referendum on the EU constitution. Since then, law-makers have remained divided over the future of the EU's efforts to open up the multibillion- euro market in services.

Negotiators in the two main political blocs have already agreed to water down the text of the draft law which prompted last year's ructions. Last night, they were trying to sell these amendments to their respective MEPs.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:28:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I were a polish plumber I'd be suing left and right for defamation.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:42:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dawn: Italian minister puts cartoon on T-shirts

ROME, Feb 14: Italy's Reforms Minister Roberto Calderoli has had T-shirts made emblazoned with the anti-Islam cartoons in a move that could embarrass Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government.

Mr Calderoli, a member of the anti-immigrant Northern League, told Ansa news agency on Tuesday that the West had to stand up against Muslim extremists and offered to hand out the T-shirts to anyone who wanted them.

"I have had T-shirts made with the cartoons that have upset Islam and I will start wearing them today," Ansa quoted Mr Calderoli as saying.

He said the T-shirts were not meant to be a provocation, but added that he saw no point trying to appease extremists.

"We have to put an end to this story that we can talk to these people. They only want to humiliate people. Full stop. And what are we becoming? The civilisation of melted butter?" Mr Calderoli said.

The League has long opposed mass immigration into Italy and its leaders say violence over the cartoon shows the dangers of allowing Muslim immigrants to settle here.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:35:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Danish Cartoon Battle so far has only served the Muslim extremists and their Western counterparts.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 02:32:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both you and Jérôme speak wisdom, DoDo.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:15:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is it only the hard right that fights for freedom of speech? Why is the left (with some honorable exceptions) giving up on this - and thus allowing only "extremists" and provocateurs to fight for that freedom?

Why didn't our governments protest against the outrageous attacks against various embassies?

This is all pathetic.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 03:40:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fights for freedom of speech? You think that fucker is fighting for freedom of speech? You think that offensive t-shirts designed to win cheap poliical points are weapons in the fight for freedom of speech? In any case, whose freedom of speech is threatened here? Are the Danes going to pass laws against this? What proposal to limit free speech is there?

Why aren't we fighting for David Irving's freedom of speech? Where are the protests from the left on that?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:36:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, I'm working on that!

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:40:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which bit?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:41:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The freedom of speech of the scandalized pseudo-historian to be tried in Austria next week bit.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good. You're working on a story?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:47:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I know what I'm going to say and that it needs to be said.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:52:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But that's exactly what I'm saying. Why is it that it seems you get only those that want a clash of civilisations to speak up on this?

The left - and a surprising number of people here - seem to be saying that we should avoid confronting Islam on this because it's needlessly provocative, and we should meekly turn the other cheek.

Well, I'll be on the line of the Canard Enchaîné (How about zero intolerance?) and keep on telling people to stop trying to impose their religions on society.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:48:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because everyone else has already said that while these fuckers have a right to freedom of speech they're a pack of offensive shits who abused their right to pointlessly offend a group of people already in a precarious situation. Which was then exploited by groups of people complicit in causing and exacerbating that precarious situation for their advantage.

However, people being rational doesn't make headlines, does it?

Why must we confront Islam? What good does it do? The correct response was "We're sorry about those prats, but that's the price of freedom of speech. It's the same freedom of speech that allows you speak out against us. If you want to live here you have to learn to accept it. Sorry, part of the package." Instead the situation has been exploited for circulation and political advantage.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:58:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The correct response was "We're sorry about those prats, but that's the price of freedom of speech. It's the same freedom of speech that allows you speak out against us. If you want to live here you have to learn to accept it. Sorry, part of the package."

But that's exactly what's been done, and that's precisely what has been called "confronting Islam" or "bullying the weak" by afew, DeAnander et al.

so Colman, are with us or against us?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:16:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
are with us or against us
Now you're channelling King George.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:20:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, that was self-derision. I figured it was a pretty obvious way to show that I don't take myself too seriously, and am aware of the dangers of pushing a point too far, but it obviouly failed miserably.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:41:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the context of the rest of your comments on this breakfast thread, you'll have to forgive me for not seeing the self-derision.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:42:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am sad to hear this, and, I must say, deeply offended!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:51:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll have to say it again.

Forgive me for not seeing the self-derision.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:55:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks. I don't hold grudges (not on ET anyway).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:59:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is becoming a meta debate on a meta snark.
When Jérôme says he is deeply offended, you can be sure he is joking... I speak under his control, but when  deeply offended, he does not respond at all.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:28:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If I ask you what's wrong with it being a meta debate on a meta snark does that become a meta meta debate on a meta snark?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll admit to taking it seriously for a split second as well, but on the presumption of good intent I took it for what it was after a moments thought.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:50:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm against repeated republishing of the cartoons as an act of defiance. That's perhaps commendable in the weak, but not in the strong. And I'm afraid here that the European secularists are the strong ones here.

Look, what are you trying to achieve? How does repeating the offence move those aims forward? My aim is to maintain the progress we've made in Europe while trying to help the middle east away from the despotic governments and fundamentalists. This doesn't help that at all. Quite the opposite: it helps out both the despots and the loonies.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:22:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My point was not about republishing the cartoons, but about making a hell of a lot more noise about the threats, the violence against persons, and the attacks on embassies (as part of the point on violence, and as ultra-basic rules of diplomacy).

Ultimately, we are saying that they can do it, because that's the kind of things "they" do, and it's pretty damn racist on its own. Yeah, they are run by savage, manipulating dictatures or fundamentalist preachers, that's how they are, and there's nothing to say about it. I disagree.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:46:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And I'm afraid here that the European secularists are the strong ones here.

In the context of a Danish peninsula in September last year, perhaps they were. But 20 percent of humanity (1.3 billion) are Muslim. It's the world's most practiced religion. How, after this issue has been internationalized so as to cause outrage from Indonesia to Morocco, are the European secularists "the strong ones"? Numerically and economically, they sure as hell are not.


The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are 800 million europeans according to the Council of Europe. That includes 70 million secular muslim turks and a few percent (up to 40 million, maybe?) other muslim immigrants.

So, compared with 1.3 Billion people, mostly in developing countries, I think Europe is economically stronger and numerically comparable.

What really, really worries me about this whole thing is that the left is on the brink of signing up to "fortress Europa" and reneging on the right of refugees (including political and religious) to obtain asylum in Europe without having to go through ideological (including religious) litmis tests. THAT is what I'm worried the European left is about ready to sacrifice. I don't want ideological litmus tests imposed on human rights.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:10:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are 800 million europeans according to the Council of Europe.

And these are all secularists? News to me.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:24:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So then the problem are not the muslims, are they?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:27:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And all Muslims were outraged?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:31:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are 800 million europeans according to the Council of Europe.
And these are all secularists? News to me.
I actually got pilloried in the cartoon debates for suggesting that secularism and freedom of speech are not necessarily fundamental to being European. So, is Europe secular and committed to free speech, or is it not? If it is, then you have 800 million on your side. It it's not, well, then you have to win your battle within Europe before going on to fight the backwards muslim immigrants.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:32:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I actually got pilloried in the cartoon debates for suggesting that secularism and freedom of speech are not necessarily fundamental to being European. So, is Europe secular and committed to free speech, or is it not?

A false dilemma. Secular people (let alone "secularists," your original term) are of course a mere subset of the free speech supporters. A big proportion of European Christians, say, would accept the right to lampoon Christianity. It wasn't always thus, but let's face it: Life of Brian - which makes fun and games of the Crucifixion - routinely runs on primetime TV in large European countries with nary a protest, let alone cries for cencorship. This despite the fact that even in Norway, the world's most secular country, fully 50 percent believe in God.

However, there are blasphemy paragraphs in a number of legal codes including ours. Hereabouts it is dormant, with the last prosecution, which led to acquittal, taking place in 1933. But leading Muslim spokesmen and organizations now call for reviving it.

While I doubt they will get this through, I sure don't appreciate the effort.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:01:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, there have been two prosecutions in Spain on what are akin to blasphemy charges (though it's not called that) according to article 525 of the 1995 criminal code. Both led ultimately to acquittal, but the first one was initially convicted. The conviction was thrown out on the hilarious argument that "the photograph in question was intended to cause scandal, but the spelling mistakes in the accompanying text were already scandalous enough". Just to show that the apellate judges have both common sense and a sense of humour.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:12:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...even in Norway, the world's most secular country, fully 50 percent believe in God.

You forgot about the Czech Republic, Sweden and Russia. (There is East Germany too.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:46:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Norway and Sweden have state churches.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:46:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So does Russia in a way, they have an autocephalous Russian Orthodox church.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:48:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ditch Russia. I was using 1998 data, but found that a 2005 poll showed increase (?) of theism to 58%.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A recent international survey pegged Norway as the most secular in the world. I'm not going to dive for the source, but it can be googled.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 08:07:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Methinks you saw headlines about this. However, note that Japan is even more secular (first in five out of six measures), Norway is not so well on the creationism front, and no formerly communist countries were included. (About two thirds of the Czech profess to be atheists/don't believe in a god in several polls, the figure in East Germany is above three-quarters.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 11:58:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, you really are putting words in my mouth with that "bullying the weak".

I consider Muslims a minority among us, certainly. I have never said that explaining our principles was bullying. I am saying that explaining our principles requires encouragment of the moderates so we have people we can speak to. But that kind of virtuous movement has been compromised by the cartoon controversy. So I will not take sides with the provocateurs.


When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:27:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
DeAnander certainly made that point, and you mostly agreed with her arguments, but I'll be happy to retract if you feel I am twisting your words.

But you are essentially saying that we should explain our principles, but not use them because that's "provocative", so we come agaisnt that dead-end again.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:48:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, only just got to this comment.

Forget about the "bullying" for the moment, you're twisting what I'm saying even more with this:

explain our principles, but not use them because that's "provocative"

I have used the term "provocation" to talk about the publication of the cartoons, and I'll add the deliberate piling-on of republication. I have not used the term in relation to principles like, we have women teachers and doctors (since you offered those examples). I have said clearly that we should refuse to accept extremist demands on these.

You persist in conflating the issue of the cartoons with other issues in everyday life and its organization.

Now some questions for you, tough guy (up to you to decide how far that's a joke, since apparently that's what we have to do with your comments...):

What do you mean exactly by "use" our principles? Just what do you propose to do? How are you going to stop the (admittedly manipulated and outrageous) protests in the Middle East? What are you going to do to European Muslims to force them to accept our piddling right to draw funny pics of Mohammed? Go on publishing and republishing cartoons until... Until what? And what purpose will you have served at the end of it?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 08:10:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The price of freedom of speech is that someone can get offended enough to assault you as a result. Then you can win a court case for assault.

End result: an injured, vindicated free speaker; and a jailed, offended violent idiot. Also, the original speech and the court arguments during the assault trial (where the defence will try to argue on the basis of the offensive speech) will be informative to the general public.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:40:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The price of freedom of speech is that someone can get offended enough to assault you as a result. Then you can win a court case for assault.

Or you can be dead. Or, as in the case of Rushdie's Norwegian publisher William Nygaard, who was gunned down on the street in Oslo, you can survive but the attacker gets away.

Are you fine with this type of situation? Because it sounds as though you are.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:51:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, what else do you suggest? How on earth are you going to prevent anyone from killing anyone else over what they wrote? Assuming you don't advocate a totalitarian police state.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:54:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I just wondered whether you are fine with it, as you sounded somewhat sanguine about the "end result":

an injured, vindicated free speaker; and a jailed, offended violent idiot. Also, the original speech and the court arguments during the assault trial (where the defence will try to argue on the basis of the offensive speech) will be informative to the general public.

As to remedies, well, giving in to threats is certainly not going to help in the long run. In that regard (if in no other) it's good that Ayaan Hirsi Ali & co are working on a sequel to van Gogh's film, and that several European papers republished those cartoons. This communicates to potential attackers that their violence isn't going to work.


The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:17:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's completely unfair. Migeru simply explained what happens, not what should happen.

You're assuming that potential attackers are sane and rational. Odds are they won't be.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:19:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru simply explained what happens, not what should happen.

His wording suggested that this is a fact of life we must accept, and even has a silver lining.

You're assuming that potential attackers are sane and rational. Odds are they won't be.

I disagree. It's a common mistake among the civilized to assume that violent scum aren't sane and rational. In a political context, they frighteningly often are.

Just to illustrate (since anecdotal evidence of course proves nothing) the attacker in the Nygaard case is believed to have been either a hitman or an Iranian government operative. His tracks disappeared at the Iranian embassy.

For that matter, the thug who stabbed Theo van Gogh is also jugded to be sane. Anna Lindh's killer, too. Both appear to have been politically motivated murders.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:42:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have asked you to explain how you intend to prevent (not punish) ideologically (includes religiously) motivated crimes.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:44:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both appear to have been politically motivated murders.

What motivated them?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:02:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you requesting information?

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:33:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If he isn't, I am now.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:34:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anna Lindh: Swedish foreign minister, stabbed to death in 2003 by a Serbo-Swede enraged by her position in the Kosovo War. The killer, Mihajlo Mihajlovich, was initially diagnosed as insane during the act, but this conclusion was overturned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Lindh

Theo van Gogh: Dutch filmmaker, stabbed and shot to death in 2004 by a Dutch radical Islamist with terrorist connections in retribution for a 10-minute film about suppression of women in Islam. On his body the killer appended a note which threatened Western governments, Jews, and the politician A. Hirshi Ali, on whose book the film was based.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 08:04:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Allegedly Olof Palme's was also a political assassination.

Now, how do you suggest Europe can prevent political assassinations from happening other than instituting some sort of thought police?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 08:07:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Allegedly Olof Palme's was also a political assassination.

Probably, but that's never been resolved.

Now, how do you suggest Europe can prevent political assassinations from happening other than instituting some sort of thought police?

I have never said I believe it can be prevented outright. That would be pretty daft.

I have said that yielding to threats is not going to help. Rather it will encourage those making such threats.

Keeping known extremist factions under surveillance, as is being done all over Europe, is obviously also wise.
 

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 08:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mohammed Bouyeri, the murderer of Van Gogh, killed Van Gogh simply because of his own interpretation (the salafism/wahabism) of Islam. Bouyeri viewed Van Gogh as an infidel and, what's worse, an enemy of (his) Islam, giving him enough justification to slaughter Van Gogh. That's it. End of story. He was sane, he was perfectly rational in his own little fucked-up world, which he attempted to defend during his last case and the current one, the Hofstad case. In both cases, his  attempts to be a scholar of Islam texts were distorted, rudimental and selective, so say other Arabists.
by Nomad on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 08:07:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I have to be sanguine about the end result because the only way I can envision a different end result is by means of some sort of police state.

In modern épée fencing there is the possibility of a "double touch" with both fencers scoring a point on a simultaneous hit. One of the most renowned fencing masters (of the classical school) of the 20th century used to say "double touch: two dead idiots".

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:23:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...and that several European papers republished those cartoons. This communicates to potential attackers that their violence isn't going to work.

In what world do you live in? Can you give one example when the violent learned that violence isn't going to work?

What you overlook is that the violent (and the culture warriors in the West, and the far-right in the West) also fight for domestic popularity and recruits, and the cartoons culture war gave them that in droves.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:47:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't have time to debate a whole swarm.

In what world do you live in?

Third planet out from the Sun. And you?

Can you give one example when the violent learned that violence isn't going to work?

Yeah, this dude down the street, let me see where I have his telephone number. Come on, this is silly.

What you overlook is that the violent (and the culture warriors in the West, and the far-right in the West) also fight for domestic popularity and recruits, and the cartoons culture war gave them that in droves.

Give me some credit of intelligence, huh? How could I "overlook" that?

As I have said repeatedly, I don't approve of the original publication. However, given that it occurred and was whipped into a global campaign for editorial and diplomatic apologies as well as censorship, and where threats of violence abound against the newspapers and even countries involved, the solidarity is called for. Sure, deescalate whereever possible; sometimes it isn't. "If you pay the Dane-geld," an old saying goes, "you never get rid of the Dane."

That said, there are two sides to this republication question; my position is all-things-considered. Unlike the issue of whether freedom of speech is negotiable.


The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 07:28:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jérôme, it would be interesting to explain why only the front page of Le Canard Enchaïné is available on line -you know, the Madelin (correct ?) story.
With hindsight it is compelling that the main satirical French paper is prevented from editing on the web because someone else owns the name.

I fully agree with you, religious beliefs should remain in the intimate sphere of the human soul where they belong, not be publicly brought up for debate, justify acts of violence and used as political tools.
And that is the opinion of someone who is not atheist so cannot be blamed of being anti clerically biased.
Besides, religion and faith are two different things.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:25:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They choose not to be present on the web, because they only make money from selling their paper (no advertisement). They own all the website addresses that sound like their name, to avoid others using them.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 08:46:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here, for one. And here and here. I don't like standing up for him because he is an anti-semitic wanker - but if I accept that he is not allowed freedom of speech, then I cannot consistently claim it for myself.

As for the cartoons, I've already spoken up on my own blog about publishers having an absolute right to publish them.  Freedom os speech means nothing if it is restricted to the "freedom" to publish only what others find inoffensive.  I think many of those publishing are likewise wankers, who are doing it simply to bait and taunt their local Muslim communities and push a xenophobic, anti-islamic agenda (Calderoli is a perfect example of this), but again, that's something they're allowed to do in a free society.  And if we deplore it, then we should speak up and say so, and call these people wankers, while defending their right to be so.

by IdiotSavant on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:48:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What proposal to limit free speech is there?

Also, there are threats to free speech besides government interference. Notably, the one which Jyllands-Posten originally set out to defy, however misguided its approach.

And this threat does not just apply to cartoons on the prophet Muhammed. To illustrate, here's from a blog post by my favorite religious affairs writer, Andrew Brown:

As the for question of fear, I know that I have been frightened in the past myself. I did a long piece for the Sunday Telegraph some years ago about the oldest known fragments of the Koran, which Dominic Lawson spiked. I haven't busted a gut to publish it since. But I now think this was wrong. There is a hugely important principle at stake. Censoring universities is much more important than censoring newspapers. We shall see what happens when I start asking questions.

A commenter remarked:

Re: the Qurâ??an, even European scholars tend to fear applying the same sort of textual and historical analysis that they would to, say, The Bible or The Book of Mormon. Thereâ??s a deadly-dull tome called â??The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Qurâ??anâ?? which argues that parts were derived from earlier Christian Aramaic texts that were actually misinterpreted by Islamic scholars. The bloke who wrote it struggled to find a publisher, and eventually had to resort to a pseudonym - Christopher Luxenberg â?? for fear of retribution. Then there was the Palestinian scholar, Suleyman Bashir, who maintained that Islam developed gradually rather than emerging in one of those â??Hey Presto!â?? moments from the mouth of Muhammad. He ended up being thrown out of a second-story window at Nablus University for his troubles.

If you go ahead with your piece, place soft mattresses around your house. Or assume a pseudonym. All the best people do.

I don't know about you, but I don't like it this way.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:07:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spiegel Online: EUROPEAN DIS-UNITY - Cartoon Conflict Shows Cracks in the EU

When Danish embassies began going up in flames last week, some in the European Union wanted a firm response. But nothing happened. The most the EU could agree on were a few wishy-washy statements.

In the Brussels language school "English Academy," a cultural war has broken out. While Danes and Germans -- and even the often contentious Flemings and Walloons -- peacefully learn foreign languages together, Belgian Muslims are stirring up a bit of a ruckus. In language class, they don't want to be "discriminated against anymore," they say.

What's their beef? Politics, religion, sex, love and other such topics with their roots in Western decadence are offensive and should no longer be allowed in the classroom. And women teachers? An impertinence. The group has already found a lawyer to represent its offended sensibilities, and the heads of the "English Academy" have no idea how they should respond. Understand and accept? Negotiate a compromise? Or just chuck the rebels out of class?

Down the block, interestingly enough, the same debate is playing out on a slightly larger playing field -- namely in the glass palace of the European Union headquarters. And the debate is a much more explosive one.

Golden opportunity wasted

Ever since a Danish newspaper published 12 caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad and triggered sometimes violent protests against Denmark and the West in the Muslim world, the European Union has been casting about for a common position. So far, though, without success -- and as the EU lack of action on the issue becomes more and more obvious, the realization grows that the 25-member European club has let a golden opportunity slip through its fingers. For years, Europe has repeated the mantra that real international relevance will only come with the development of a common foreign and security policy. The problem, though, has been that whenever difficult decisions need to be made, EU members can't agree. Like right now.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:38:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The News: EU chief defends Denmark in cartoons row

COPENHAGEN: European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso defended Denmark on Tuesday in the cartoons row, telling the Danish media that freedom of expression was "not negotiable".

"Freedom of expression is not something that we can negotiate, because it is an essential value in our open and democratic European society," Barroso was quoted as saying in Tuesday's edition of the Danish daily Berlingske Tidende.

Barroso said he understood "that these drawings made a lot of Muslims in the world uncomfortable and angry. But I want to say at the same time that the principle of non-violence and freedom of expression is decisive for democracy".

The 12 caricatures first appeared in the Danish daily Jyllands-Posten on Sept 30 and have since been reprinted in numerous newspapers around the world. Muslims' reactions have in some places been violent, with three Danish embassy buildings set on fire, five official diplomatic missions closed, Danish products boycotted and a price put on Danes' heads in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Barroso said the attacks on the Danish embassies in Damascus, Beirut and Teheran were "totally unacceptable". "That's why we are expressing our solidarity with Denmark. What has happened is unfair (because) Denmark has a long tradition of openness and tolerance, and also of helping others, of dialogue and of culture," he said.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:44:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is concerning is that the cartoon crisis has escalated to unimaginable proportions (with major depredations going on). One of the cartoons Jérôme posted featured a Muslim extremist (I guess) leader saying that "politically, they (cartoons) make his day".

One of the questions I have is that how the Muslim governments would react if the French, the Brits or the Americans were burning Saudi Arabia embassies because the oil price is too high. I am snappy and over-doing that on purpose, to evidence how insane it is all getting.
What will the next step be? Burn the French Ministry of Education buildings because they recommend Muslim girls can go to the gym the same as their fellow schoolmates ?

But I guess this has already been widely debated on all the cartoon issue dedicated threads here on ET.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:12:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can a muslim school girl refuse to go to the gym?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:14:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Theoretically not, but I am not up to date enough on what actually happens in school yards.
My understanding is that this was to be dealt on "a case by case basis." ie no clear rules in practise.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:47:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Deutsche Welle: Solana Mediates in Cartoon Dispute

The EU's foreign policy chief has begun a tour of the Middle East to defuse the row over caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed. Meanwhile, new cartoons in a German paper have sparked anger from Iran.

The European Union's chief diplomat has said Europe and the Muslim world must maintain strong relations despite the clash over caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed.

EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana and Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak on Tuesday discussed mechanisms to protect religious symbols and beliefs. On the second leg of his Middle East tour, Solana said he had a "profound desire to recuperate relations between the EU and the Muslim world."

On Monday, Solana met with Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), in Jeddah. The OIC is a pan-Islamic body representing 57 nations. In a joint press conference, Solana said continued dialogue was crucial.

"We must not allow the latest events to erode the solid relationship we have built up over so many years," Solana said after meeting with Ihsanoglu. "We need each other, we have to work together, and we have to respect each other."

Solana said he and Ihsanoglu also agreed on "the importance of mutual tolerance and the inadmissibility of violence."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:50:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So what should that school do? I'd like to hear from those that argued that the cartoons were needlessly provovcative: how would YOU react to the demands?

And what do you then think of French requirements that girls practise sports at school? and what about demands that they be treated in hospitals not by whatever doctor is on duty, whether male or female, but only by female doctors?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 03:43:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"So what should that school do?"

Come off it, Jérôme, you don't expect us to take that crappy journalism seriously.

If this were a well-researched and well-written article about that language school, which established the facts and examined what was happening and listened to the different points of view, and if it then became clear that religious extremists were attempting to change the normal practice of the school in order to make it fit with their beliefs, then of course I would say they should be politely told they were free to leave if they didn't like the teaching.

But you are trying to conflate this with the cartoons (as Hans-Jürgen Schlamp does in his sneaky civilization-clash article in the Spiegel), and they are not the same thing.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:07:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Come on, afew, you know that these things are happening all the time now in schools and hospitals in France. How would you deal with that?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:36:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've indicated what I think. But you are conflating problems of everyday life in society, which call for discussion and no doubt clear principles -- and which above all call for encouragement of the large numbers of moderate, progessive Muslims in Europe who rightly believe they can be free to practise their religion and be integrated into European society -- with a right-wing provocation which has (deliberately) caused polarization and immense trouble.

I see a great difference between extremists (not only Muslim) challenging the way different institutions, like schools or hospitals, already work in our societies (in which case, if their demands appear to us unacceptable, we should tell them we refuse), and reactions to deliberate provocation by the xenophobic right.

What matters most to me is that we push back the extremes and promote the moderates. And that we stop feeding pernicious idiots like Philippe de Villiers whom I heard once again say this morning that French suburbs are "handed over to Islam".

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:55:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We're mostly in agreement, I think, but I do include finding cartoons in my paper (including those making fun of religious people) a part of my daily life.

The only way to fight off the scaremongerers like de Villiers is precisely to speak up as progressives on the topic and say that the Muslims stepped over a line (in calling for violence and in actually conducting violence) while fully acknowledging their right to say they are offended and their right to protest them peacefully.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:08:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some Muslims, not "the Muslims".
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:10:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, you're right, sorry about that one.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:12:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What you say is the only way to fight off Le Pen channelers like de Villiers is pretty much what you characterize as "meekly turning the other cheek" in another comment.

As for your point about cartoons, please. Cartoons are not about to disappear. We are not in danger.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:18:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cartoons will not disappear, true. Cartoons critical of Islam in mainstream media may be another matter.

To give just one example, there's a hard-hitting cartoonist named Finn Graff working for the liberal Norwegian daily Dagbladet. This guy has a serious problem with authority; allegedly his wife and sister are tasked with erasing as many erect penises as possible from his sketches of authority figures. I remember one of his offerings featuring an elephant screwing another (which had its head draped in the Stars and Stripes) with a crucifix. This prompted a furious letter to the editor from Republicans Abroad.

Graff freely admits that he wouldn't dare draw Muhammed. But apparently that is not enough. When interviewed on TV recently, he nervously displayed an old cartoon slamming the treatment of women under Islamic law. A minaret played the part of an erect male member. Now, al-Jazeera's man in Oslo deliberately refrained from reporting this back to his HQ, since the existence of this cartoon, as he put it, would be sure to "unleash hell." This despite there being no representation of Muhammed.

Morten Kristiansen, editorial cartoonist at the country's biggest newspaper Verdens Gang, says he has often received complaints from Christians when drawing Jesus and from Muslims when drawing their religious leaders, but that in recent years the feedback from the latter has increasingly included threats. I wager you will find the same phenomenon across Europe.


The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 05:45:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My answer to that is that I'm interested in outcomes. We have to learn to live peacefully and tolerantly with the Muslims among us, and, of course, vice versa. The way we can reach this is by framing and funding policies that integrate Islam as one of the religions practised here, and that encourage responsible, moderate Muslims who want integration, not conflict, and who would be happy to see their religion evolve. There are plenty of Muslims who fit that description. They are the leaven (and are feared as such by the extremists outside Europe, who don't want new ideas to seep back).

This kind of process may take a little time. It's already under way. But we must support the movement. I've seen (TV) moderate Muslims in Denmark complain that the cartoon controversy has set them back and they have lost influence. A young woman who is working and dressing in a European manner no doubt has a daily struggle to persuade the older, more conservative elements in her family that this is OK. Now she's not being listened to, because the Prophet has been insulted (fundamental symbol), and for her it's now go back to the beginning and start again.

The day will come when Muslims themselves will be doing the cartoons, and I'll be hugely happy to see that and to support the cartoonists. In the meantime, what purpose (other than those of the xenophobic right) do we serve if we seek to face down the extremists by insisting on our absolute right to caricature sacred aspects of Islam? We have won the freedom to do that as regards our own historical religion (and I support that freedom), but let's encourage those who will make Islam evolve so that they will one day have that freedom. For the moment, is it so huge a problem to lay aside the rather arrogant notion that our caustic wit is going to change a religion to which we don't have personal or historical links, and to exercise some understanding and restraint?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:33:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A more than slanted article from Hans-Jürgen Schlamp.

Is it surprising that the EU has difficulty finding a common position on this complex issue? In what way would "a common foreign and security policy" magically solve the problem? What was the "golden opportunity" that the EU is supposed to have let slip, exactly? What "action" does Schlamp expect the EU to take?

He doesn't say -- beyond claiming that the EU has done "little to satisfy the European public" (without saying what that public, according to him, is supposed to think), and should have reacted "responsibly but confidently -- and without kowtowing to Mecca".

As for the unsubstantiated, unexamined, undiscussed anecdote at the beginning of the article, it is exactly what it looks like: a shabby hook.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 03:59:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the school is a private school and the courses are not mandatory, those who object to the staff or the course content are free not to enrol.

If the course fulfills a state requirement or the school is public, the issue is more complex.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:45:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Out of interest, how along ago did mixed secondary level schools become normal in Spain? Thirty  years ago there would have been very few in Ireland.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:49:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean gender-mixed? In my lifetime the only schools that were segregated were private religious schools. And even that has begun to change.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:51:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Very interesting point here, Migeru.
Since the beginning of the 20th century, religious practise in France is supposed a strictly private matter and thanks no Jules Ferry, state (ie public schools) deliver the same instruction to all pupils, whatever their religious mainstream.
If parents want their children to have a religious education as a part of the school or high school program, they are free to send them to a private school.

The cornerstone of all this is the French concept of laïcité.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 06:00:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Financial Times: Ailing German unions mount rearguard action

Germany's first public sector strike in 14 years is barely a week old but, as the uncollected rubbish piles up, Gerhard Widder, mayor of Mannheim, is already warning of rat-infested mountains of burning rubbish in the streets.

"Rubbish is a hazard. Once it gets warmer, it could catch fire. It can even explode," he warns.

Exploding bins have yetto be reported, but the dispute is shaping up as Germany's toughest industrial action for decades. It is about more than just working hours, the union's stated target. At stake is the credibility of the labour movement.

"The unions are fighting against their own decline. Their margin of movement is decreasing," says Klaus Zimmermann, head of the Berlin DIW economic institute. "It will be a tough battle."

Ostensibly, Verdi, the service sector union behind the stoppages, opposes a move by public sector employers to raise the working week from 38.5 to 40 hours.

Verdi wants Germany's 16 states to sign the framework deal on wages and working time it struck last year with the federal government and local authorities.

It also seeks to reverse a decision by local authorities in three states to opt out of the deal and increase working hours for their employees.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:41:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
DIW as independent observer. 'Ostensibly'. LOL.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 02:35:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can't you read, Mr DoDo?

It's in the title: Ailing rearguard.

It's in the body: Exploding rubbish.

When will you people at last catch on?

Afew Exploding Rubbish Technology ™


When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 03:18:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You forgot "rat-infested"

I am also noting that the wording flagged a couple of days ago is spreading:


Fresh dispute threatens deal on services (FT)

Last week senior MEPs from the centre-right European People's party and the Socialists agreed to water down plans to liberalise the European services market in an attempt to end two years of fighting over the proposal.

(...)

The disagreement highlights the deep division between protectionist and liberal lawmakers, as well as broader tensions between the European Union's old and new member states.

liberal = good, but sadly being "diluted" by the opposition, which is no longer social, or socialist, but "protectionist". Where's the Protectionist (Bogeyman) Party.

JEROME NOTCH TECHNOLOGY.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 03:49:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, "rat-infested" gets done every time there's a rubbish-collection strike.

"Exploding rubbish" I found new and refreshing.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 04:35:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tehran Times: Turkey to build first nuclear plant on Black Sea

ANKARA (Reuters) -- Turkey has decided to build its first nuclear power plant at Sinop on the Black Sea coast, energy officials said on Tuesday.

"The prime minister's office and the energy ministry have decided to build the nuclear plant at Sinop, taking into account such factors as geological faultlines and cooling water," an energy official told Reuters.

Turkey straddles seismic faultlines and is highly prone to earthquakes. Sinop is located in the central stretch of Turkey's lengthy Black Sea coast.

The country has no nuclear power plants at present, but a preliminary study envisages the construction of between three and five plants with a total capacity of 5,000 megawatts.

The energy officials said Turkey's National Security Council, which groups the president, top politicians and army generals, would examine the issue of building nuclear power plants at its next meeting on Feb. 28.

Oil and natural gas imports, along with coal and hydro-electric power, account for most of Turkey's current energy needs.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:48:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Moscow Times: French Back Mideast Initiatives

Russia and France on Tuesday called on Iran to halt uranium enrichment, reinforcing international pressure on Tehran, and French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin urged Palestinian militant group Hamas to listen to Russia's calls to disarm.

In a joint statement by Prime Minister Mikhail Fradkov and Villepin in Moscow, the two countries said Iran must fulfill the demands of the International Atomic Energy Agency.

"Russia and France call on Iran to fully comply with the February resolution and the demands of the board of governors of the IAEA, including on uranium enrichment," said the statement posted on the Kremlin's web site.

Fradkov said he was "concerned about the way events are unfolding" around Iran's nuclear program.

"We made a series of proposals that, in our view, could significantly ease the situation in the course of a search for a solution," Fradkov said at a joint news conference with Villepin, adding that the potential for a positive outcome was "not yet exhausted."

On Monday, Tehran abruptly postponed talks scheduled for this week on Moscow's uranium enrichment offer. Russia is now considering Iran's request for the Moscow talks to be held next Monday, news agencies quoted Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin as saying.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 15th, 2006 at 12:55:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
IHT: Grand awakening of Spain's young, elegant architects

Is there any show more overdue than a major one about contemporary Spanish architecture? For years now, architects and planners have been jetting to places like Barcelona, Bilbao and Merida in an attempt to decipher one of the great architectural success stories in modern history.

The endurance of Spain's grand experiment is remarkable. It started, you could argue, during the final years of Franco's rule in the early 1970s, as Spain began to awaken from the isolation of a four-decade dictatorship. It began to flower in earnest after 1986, when the country joined the European Union and money began flowing into large-scale public work