Spanish energy giant is (almost) born. -UPDATE IV

by kcurie
Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 04:08:27 AM EST

Today a huge step towards the creation of the third world biggest energy company has been given and it seems there is no way back

Barcelona will be the center of one of the most humongous  corporations...Today the Spanish government has given final approval to Gas Natural's 22.4bn euro ($27bn; £15bn) hostile takeover of fellow Spanish energy company Endesa.

This is going to change the Spanish and South-American landscape..and I bet that the European energy sector is gonna see giant takeover bids by this company in the future (will they be allowed?)..The first step of a change in the model of business.

But.. HERE COMES THE SURPRISE, it is also a great blow to right-wing politics in the continent... say what? what has to do right-wing pressure groups and this takeover....??This take over is basically the elimination of one the most important centers of the right-wing influence in Spain...with friends in the US right and some others (less) in Europe...

This takeover is also the way a new model of business in energy is born... Read below and feel free to comment about your best model of primary energy....the nuclear French.. or the new Spanish one, you choose

From the diaries - (with important comments by Migeru) ~ whataboutbob


First of all I should be recall what the BBC says.. just to put everyone in perspective

Gas Natural's approach for electricity firm Endesa had already been approved by Spain's energy industry watchdog. Combined, they create the world's third biggest energy firm. Endesa has strongly opposed the deal, but Spain's government has a policy of promoting industry consolidation to create "national champions". Not only does it not damage competition, it fosters it said Deputy Prime Minister Maria Teresa Fernandez de la Vega. Madrid hopes that such larger firms will be better able to compete on the global stage. Outside of Spain both companies have large operations in Latin America. However, the approval is subject to conditions, and the combined group will have to shed 4,300 megawatts of electricity generating capacity. Gas Natural will also have to sell all but 1% of its 15% stake in gas distributor Enagas.

It seems fairly normal. The key point however  is that Gas Natural and Endesa are not at all normal companies. The combination of both is even less normal.

Behind this simple report there is a whole world underground. I will try to explain it short and easy .. so that you do notget bored.

In Spain there are a special types of Banks, they are called Cajas. For the customers, they are just a normal bank. But actually, they do not have stock-owners. They are similar to the sparkasse in Germany Migeru points out that they are not unlike the Building societies (there are some differences though) and they are the equivalent of the caisse d''épargne in France.

Las Cajas de Ahorro in Spain have a board of directors selected by a mix of politicians and local economic power-houses. These "Cajas" are strongly stablished in different parts of the country. In Madrid there is  Caja Madrid and in Barcelona "La Caixa" (among smaller ones). And here it comes the most interesting part, even when La Caixa can not be owned by anybody who is not an important member of the Barcelona society, it indeed can own other companies. Cajas can have the majority of other company stocks or constitute a hard core of stockholders   of a company ... they can even have the final say on the CEO.

Let us focus on La caixa... La Caixa controls four big companies. One for oil (Repsol.. with other people), another  for Highways with tolls (Abertis, alone), another for Natural gas (GN mostly alone) and one for Water control and treatment (Aguas de Barcelona).

A big company in every sector. But the only really international company is Repsol, and La caixa can not control it alone. Notice that there is no electric company and that La Caixa fully controls Gas Natural.

Let's move now to the big energy companies in Spain (mainly three: Iberdrola, Union Fenosa, and Endesa). They come from the selling and split of a former monopoly. The energetic monopoly was sold inthe 80's to the rich fat guys in Spain. Nowadays each company basically operates in a different part of the country having a local "de-facto" monopoly.

Controlling these companies from a single institution is difficult. They basically depend on banks and foreign investor. The government can indeed have an influence by pressing the spanish stock-holders, be their individuals (friends of the government) or local Banks (BBVA, B. Santander..) These companies can turn out to be controlled by a certain group of the civil society. Endesa, in particular, is one of the most reliable sources of money and power for the right-wing in Spain.

The left parties have been saying that the Endesa electric corporation and its president gave large donations to the PP (right-wing), though admitting there was no proof.  According to the PP, the PSOE government now) was trying to "create a smokescreen in order to cover up the Montilla scandal." (strong relation between La caixa and the present industry minister). Endesa president Manuel Pizarro denied that he had given money to the PP, and left the question in his lawyers' hands to never heard about it again.  

M. Pizarro was apointed with its own finger by former President Aznar (buddies you  know) after putting strong pressure on private banks

Endesa has been accused of spending great chunks of money with other US companies trying to spread doubts on the science of global warming in the US (Greenpeace allegations). Claiming the same thing in Spain can cause  you serious trouble so they just tried to influence foreign governments (or just support Aznar friends in the US). The main reason for this behavior is that Endesa HAS TO use coal. This is, the coal power stations that came from the Franco era were given to Endesa when the monopoly was split. He has no other option than use them.....

And here Gas Natural enters the picture. What about not using coal stations any more, or even adapt them to burn Natural Gas. What about, even, creating a power station that can burn both coal and gas?

Spain is the third world importer of gas in the world.. 50% from Algeria, the rest quite diversified from around the world. And almost all of it is imported by GN for their service to private users (families at home)  and some  power stations.
The most important fact however, is that Spain has rights over a huge quantity of gas around the world. It could run all the cars in Spain with gas...but there is still no cars going with gas...so it could (and will)  end up substituting coal. That is,if only GN would have those power stations... and now they got them...most of them..

Problem is... GN had not that much money to take over Endesa, basically 70% of the savings in Catalonia through La Caixa are not enough to guarantee such operation right now. But if GN can sell some of its infraestructure to a competing/ non-competing company like Iberdrola, which is based in the Basque Country,well...that would give GN the money it needs. But how could Iberdrola pay so much money .. well becasue the president of the biggest Bank in Spain (Santander), another power-house, wants to be fine with right and left wing governments and he decided to.... well, let's forget the details. Suffice to say that he made an operation that allows Iberdrola to have the money

And today the government gave the nod not only to the take over, more importantly, the possibility that GN can sell part of the infraestructure to Iberdrola. It also imposed other restrictions so that GN does not get all the power stations in some areas  so that other small-middle companies could eventually become important in the future (we have a center-left government after all.).

All in all the third world energy company is created in Barcelona, the second largest energy company in Spain strengths its position and it is also based outside Madrid.

You could guess how the economic elite took these facts in Madrid. They are really pissed-off. As Migeru properly notices:.

To the extent that Spanish right wing has almost wrecked the EU's competition system by insisting on taking this Spanish merger to the EU, seeking to stop the operation at the EU level since they could not do it in Spain. There have been lots of protests from EU officials, and even articles in the FT accusing the Spanish right of creating a dangerous precedent that could throw what is universally considered a very efficient EU competition system into disarray..

That was not all. They also launched an all-assault on La Caixa when the take over was announced some months ago. The  attacks on the government and on President Zapatero were also continuous. Zapatero had a very clear idea in mind: PSOE (its party) could guarantee his way into government for 12 more years if he blew the rigth wing out of some areas of Spain (Catalonia, Basque Country, and Andalucia). Transfering power out of right-wing hands in Madrid to other aras was... fuc----ly brilliant. Making friends within the economic elites of other areas of Spain is also smart.

And out of this, suddenly Europe has a huge player. A player that would produce enegy from coal or natural gas for the next 20 years (in the middle of the oil peak). It will be the equivalent of the nuclear power in france  but with another model. Spain will have 33 % of coal/gas generated electricity, 33% of wind/hydro (the bet of Iberdrola) and 33 % of  nuclear... a good mixture for  energy.. and controlled by no foreign investor; controlled by the saving of a huge number of middle and upper class savings...

I do not know if it will beat other models in Europe.. but I am dead sure they are going to try.

Other sources:

El Pais updates

I hope there will be updates because things are developing fast.. it seems that the right-wing is really pissed-off...more news soon for sure about their possible reactions

UPDATE I:

The figth against the EU comission was real... down to judges. It was dead serious. Here tere are links to the decission of the ENDESA vs the EU comission :

Ressolution in :

French

Spanish

UPDATE II

It seems the right-wing is up in arms. There are reports of Endesa going to the Spanish Supreme Court agaisnt the government. Other reports claim that PP (right-wing party) has vowed to undo any ruling if they ever reach power again. We will wait and see until they are confirmed.

UPDATE III

Multiple sources confirm that Iberdrola, the other great player, has issued an statement showing its support for the decision. The other great electric company Union Fenosa, normally not happy about this take over, has reacted surprsingly well to the decission making an U-Turn. It could very well be that the government has sweetened the take-over to make the position of Union Fenosa better. Union fenosa statement about the take-over government rquirements to implement the take-over:

"podría implementarse" de forma que contribuya "al equilibrio del sistema" energético, ajuste que la eléctrica considera "ineludible y urgente".

Fast Translation: "It could be implemented in a way that contributes to the equilibrium of the system. An adjustment that the electric company (UF) considers unavoidable and urgent

UPDATE IV

Well, I think this is the last update. The list of reactions has been quite large in the last hours. The reactions are very important for Spain but I doubt they will have any effect/impact in Europe for the time being. Only if the new "big baby" is born, then Europe will heavily notice the consequences.

But there are a lot of people around here interested in Spain and the power struggle there, so I think I must complete the diary

First important news: Endesa is going to the Spanish Supreme Court against the government. According to La Vanguardia and El Pais there is no way back and the lawyers of Endesa are already working on it.

The Union Fenosa U-turn has been confirmed despite the fact that is controlled by ACS, the construction company owned by the R.Madrid football club president Florentino Perez and very close to PP. Everyone is stil wondering why the change.

On its turn, Gas Natural did not expect one of the conditions that the government has finally imposed. They will have to get rid of 1.5 million customers in Spain...I am still asking if they will go mainly to Union Fenosa.

And finally, the reaction of the president of the right-wing party PP is still missing. It seems that one of the spokespeople of PP spoke too fast about "dismantling the new monopoly" as soon as they get back to government. The last person to spoke (Acebes, ex-interior minister during 11-M) from PP said that if they are back to government they will "adopt the necessary steps to avoid situations of monopoly in the economy" that can hurt the citizens.

I think this will be all for now. We will have to come back to it probably since I see this merger happening and this company entering in the European markets big time....Time will tell. Meanwhile, a new giant is in the making.

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Hey, great news, it seems that Jérôme has convinced many with his promoting-energy-on-ET-campaign.... :)
And good to see how wide your interests are, kcurie...
And I am the frist one to recommend your diary. A pleasure;-)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 10:50:08 AM EST
Ei Thanks..

My interests are very broad.. but this is huge news in Spain.. it is one of the biggest news on the continent this year.. really. I hope the people on ET will realized.

This is really humongous... I do not know if I put enough emphasis. It is the conomic news of the year in Spain and I would bet that it is also one of the most importan ones (if not the most) in Europe.

You just have to look around Spanish newspapers and TV...

It has politics, economic power, and our energy future, all mixed....it is perfectly fit for this site.. I hope more people will think like you.. And I also hope migeru and ManFM who know what I am talking about will help other people notice...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 10:55:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, DoDo, Bob, Colman and Jérôme certainly will, and if I know them just a itttle bit, well, your diary will be on top of the rec' list very soon.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:13:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you have any information about the differences and similarities between the multiple names for Cajas, and Sparkasseor building socieites ....a good bank expert is needed....

I do not know if Cajas are so powerfulin other parts of the EU...Are they powerful in France?

Can this model of energy be repeated there?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:55:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yahoo! Finance: Unión Fenosa, S.A. Company Profile
The company's regulated power distribution assets are located in the Spanish provinces of Castilla y León, Castilla-La Mancha, Madrid, and Galicia.


By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:10:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
MAdrid and Galicia, very interesting. Galicia changed to a left-wing government recently. Not Madrid. Headquarters are split between Madrid and La Coruña.

Union fenosa sudden change of mind is really puzzling.
The president of R. MAdrid, the great owner of ACS (biggest construction company) wanted to buy it.. I heard about it.

This gets more interesting by the minute. I would love to  know what has been going on in the background in the last months.

This a complete redistribution of power.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:18:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is the role of Caja Madrid and Caixa Galicia in all this?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Je j ejeje.. Do we read exactly the same newspapers and take exactly the same conclusions?

Yes, caja Madrid had a big role. They have important investemnts in Endesa and Union Fenosa... and they are controlled by te right-wing mainly through The autonomous government of Madrid and the construction lobby (let me call it that way). I guess they are supporting the president of Endesa.

But why nobody talks about caixa galicia??? I bet they have an important role in Union Fenosa...they have been probably thorugh changes in their board due to the change in Galicia government (la Xunta) from right to left.

I am still wondering what game they have been playing...MIgeru..you should be in madrid hanging around the big places (you know the restaurant and hotels and discos perfectly... you know) and see what you listen.

I could have tried the same thing in Barcelona...but I was not there...actually I think I could ask the direction of any office in Barceloan and they would gladly explain me all the gossip.

Well, this is the problem of not belonging to the elite.. we never really know :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 07:46:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just back from a business trip to Austria. My first post is a response to one of yours. I'll see what I can find on the topic.

Huge hug and once again, congrats for your diary on the Gas Natural/Endesa merger, to be extended to Migeru as well.


When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 03:06:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kcurie, you have missed one important feature of this, and that is that the Spanish right wing has almost wrecked the EU's competition system by insisting on taking this Spanish merger to the EU, seeking to stop the  operation at the EU level since they could not do it in Spain. There have been lots of protests from EU officials, and even articles in the FT (if I remember correctly) accusing the Spanish right of creating a dangerous precedent that could throw what is universally considered a very efficient EU competition system into disarray.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:00:29 AM EST
Absolutely right!!

 I will update it .. I just wrote the diary very fast... as fast as I could.

This is big news.. it seems that PP has vowed to reverse this decision if they ever get to government.

Waiting for confirmation on this.

there is also talk about going to the Supreme Court.

It is  very messy right now...

I will put your comment in the main diary..

And I hope ET will realize how important this is..

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:06:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know what the PP's problem with Catalunya is. They have an unhealthy obsession with it. If they really have come out saying that they will reverse the decision they're just confirming that it's just bigoted opposition to all things catalan. I mean, their original battle cry was "we can't allow Spain's energy to be in Catalan hands" (as if, against their own claims, Catalunya were not Spain), reminiscent of the tone in which the American right wing talks about middle-Eastern oil.

This morning, El Pais called the conditions that the Government has put on the takeover "acceptable" (asumibles) whereas La Vanguardia called them "severe". La Vanguardia toned it down later in the day.

I mean, the government is even demanding the transfer of 1.5M customers (I don't quite understand from where to where) and a lot of other conditions that are not to be sneezed at.

By the way, doesn't Princess Cristina work for La Caixa? Just in case there was any doubt that La Caixa is an "acceptably Spanish" institution.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:20:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Me neither... what are they playing. Reports are not confirmed... nothing oficial.. another step of PP in this direction..and well.. I just do not kow what to think.

Yes the princess works in La Caixa.

And yes, the sell of costumers could be a sweetener for Union Fenosa.

So, in a way, it is more tough than expected. But the right-wing wanted a prohibition, they want do not want a no right-wing entity to control the most powerful energy company around.
Where is Union fenosa based by the way? Just in case the sweeteners to Union Fenosa drive the right-wing even more crazy.. If Union fenosa belongs to some Caja in Andalucia it will be a 3-0 in one day

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I put your comment up there. I could not have said it better. You sum it up exactly

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:11:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you had time you could maybe dig up some actual quotes from the EU on this?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:13:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Doing my best to update with the quotes and the last reactions.

Really working on it..

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:17:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cajas de Ahorros are not unlike British Building Societies. The term exists in French (caisse d''épargne) and German (Sparkasse).

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:22:28 AM EST
I was not sure if the building societies in england are the same. There are some differences in the sructure, organization and law.

On the other hand the german Sparkasse are very similar.. but I do not know if they have the same outreach and they control multibillion companies.

Since I was not sure that the german sparkasse could also control big companies I did not want to compare.

About the french caisse d''épargne, I had not even the slightest idea they existed... Migeru thank you so much..really.

So we can say that they are fairly similar to those examples. And I know the most similar example is indeed the Sparkasse.. But now French people can also know something very very similar (if not the same).

Migeru thank you so much..really.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:36:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The French Wikipedia says they also exist in Italy and Quebec. In English Speaking countries you have Savings Banks and Credit Unions as well as Cooperative or Mutual banks... Too many variations to name them all. But maybe a banking expert like Agnes can help...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 11:46:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Italy they are disappearing, being bought by bigger banks.
by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 08:39:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is an important article, and 'd like to move this to front page...but it took me a little while to dig into your diary before I understood what was going on...I know, in my editorial role of promoting diaries I try to have front page articles grab someone right off <picky, picky>. But here was one thought, which just moves up text you wrote already, to the top of the story:

Today a huge step towards the creation of the third world biggest energy company has been given and it seems there is no way back.

Barcelona will be the center of one of the most humongous  corporations...Today the Spanish government has given final approval to Gas Natural's 22.4bn euro ($27bn; £15bn) hostile takeover of fellow Spanish energy company Endesa

This is going to change the Spanish and South-American landscape..and I bet that the European energy sector is gonna see giant take over bids by this company in the future (will they be allowed?)..The first step of a change in the model of business.

But.. HERE COMES THE SURPRISE, it is also a great blow to right-wing politics in the continent... say what? what has to do right-wing pressure groups and this takeover....??This take over is basically the elimination of one the most inportant centers of the right-wing influence in Spain...with friends in the US right and some others (less) in Europe...

That says right up front what is going on that is...and grabs you.

But what of the rest of what you said...where should it go? So, I'm shy to meddle in your great diary. But if you wanted to change it somehow so it states the importance of your article right up front a little stronger, I'll put it up there on the front page...

This aside, thank you kcurie for this interesting and important news. (Lets hope this happens!)


"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:14:59 PM EST
I will re-arrange it.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No offence to Kcurie, but I noticed a number of subtle mistakes which are characteristic of Spanish speakers of English and which make some of the arguments obscure, if they don't appear (on a first reading) to have exactly the opposite of their intended meaning. Maybe I'll find time later to suggest corrections.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:21:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. Fast, fast, fast writing. Besides the normal mistakes.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:25:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Edited and also some clear spanish expressions eliminated... I hope now there is only the standard number of mistakes...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 12:47:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are these Cajas in any way similar to American credit unions?

selco.org/consumer/glossary_general.asp defines credit unions as follows:

A financial cooperative organizations of individuals with a common affiliation (such as employment, labor union membership, or place of residence). Credit unions accept deposits of members, pay interest (dividends) on them out of earnings, and primarily provideconsumer installment credit to members. Creditworthiness A creditor's measure of a consumer's or company's past and future ability and willingness to repay debts. ...

Mikhail from SF

by Tsarrio (dj_tsar@yahoo.com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 03:16:16 PM EST
Spanish Wikipedia: Caja de Ahorros (English interlanguage link: Savings and Loan Association)
Spanish Cajas de Ahorros are full credit entities, free to carry outt financial operations like the rest of Spanish financial institutions.

They are all legally constituted as private, non-profit foundations. Their main characteristics are:

  • Acting entirely according to market criteria.
  • Have social objectives.
An important part of their benefits revert to society through their social works, aiming to attend to the demands of the population, from the [social] integration of the underprivileged to cultural activities, from restoring and preserving the national historical and cultural heritage to environmenta preservation.

Generally, and despite theeir freedom of operation, they speciaalize in channeling people's savings and financing families and small and medium enterprises. They have strong local roots, with a dense network of branches mostly on a regional scope.

(My translation) To get around the limited scope of their branches, the cajas have formed a national confederation, and have their own common ATM network (tarjeta 6000) separate from the banks (tarjeta 4B).

The largest cajas are Caja Madrid, La Caixa, Ibercaja, Bilbao Bizkaia Kutxa (not to be confused with BBVA - a large bank) etc.

Hope that helps.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 03:49:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Cajas are much more deeply involved in the economy than credit unions in the US, and are by far much, much larger.  Where the scope of the credit union is often very limited in the US, the cajas are aimed at regions, and aren't aimed at specific occupations, as a consequence they are far larger.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Great diary, thanks! I think today we had enough promotions, yours may be better frontpaged tomorrow, unless whataboutbob decides otherwise.

(But I can't suppress one hurrah for Iberdola in its choices of power sources.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:12:06 PM EST
Iberdrola did not choose wind and hydro. It was born out of the privatization (and subsequent merger) of the State companies in charge of Spain's hydroelectric power plants.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:22:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That covers the hydro, but what about the wind? AFAIK Iberdola is indeed a big buyer of wind power (and maybe even owner of farms). If yes (and the other companies aren't acting similarly), that was their decision.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:39:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I shall add that the Zapatero government foresees (again quoting from memory) 30% share for wind power on the medium term, I wonder how that fits in with the picture of these energy giants.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:41:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the way it fits is that you just can't have 33% nuclear like Kcurie says, and we know from Jerome's diaries that Natural Gas is going to be even tighter than Oil...

Proponents of nuclear in Spain are fond of pointing out that Spain sometimes imports energy from France, and that is mostly nuclear so we might as well run our own nuclear power plants. But that won't happen. A friend of my father worked as a civil engineer on the building of a nuclear power plant that never went into operation.

Iberdrola actually owns nuclear power plants.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:50:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Present nuclear primary energy is around 25 % If they improve the existent ones and the demand does not increase extremelly (and no nuclear station is closed) we could get around 25-30% from nuclear energy in 2020.

If oil gets very expensive it will be very easy to reach 40-50 % by building three more reactor (there are 9 right now)

If oil doe snot get expensive or wind can take over, nuclear can rovide 20% of the primary energy needed in the next decades.

And as migeru recalls Iberdrola has indeed at least one nuclear power station.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 08:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think is 35 % of wind+hydro for 2020 at the latest.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 07:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, for almost 20 years they would have had a very hard time competing with the other companies on any of the fuel-based modes energy generation, so I suppose diversifying into other renewables was a natural choice for them.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:44:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it was an obvious choice.. but they made the bet..Not with the hydro as you said since they received the power stations. But they bet on wind in a certain way.

Actually I think it went more or less like ..let's gonna diversify...ups this is giving money..let's keep it up...uuppsss this is giving a lot of money..let's carry it on the most we can.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 07:37:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank government regulations, which have consistently (over more than 10-15 years already) been favorable to wind - as a way to boost power production, and to slowly replace dirty coal plants (together with gas-fired plants).

Local utilities are forced to buy renewable power, and they found it smart to invest in the sector to at least capture some of the value they were forced to pay out. Together with local authorities, they have ended up being the biggest investors in the sector, and are now making record profits from what was initially a constraint for them...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 04:49:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hardly can say it better.
Bt as Migeru pointed out, there was an element of diversification at the time. Iberdrola needed to diversify... so why not wind if I will have to pay for it after all.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Feb 3rd, 2006 at 07:39:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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