European Tribune

Danish Cartoons and Islam: Context and Backstory

by Ben P
Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 08:46:01 PM EST

The problem with a lot of the people taking the hardline pro-cartoon position is the inability to properly acknowledge or appreciate the larger cultural context within which this event is playing out. And also the exact history of the specific Danish cartoon controversy more specifically.


Basically, as far as I can see from reading a lot of the commentary recently, there seems to be a complete inability or unwillingness to regard the event in any kind of larger context. But the thing is, nothing - no events - occur in a vacuum. And I think with regards to most issues, progressives think context matters. Allow me to begin with analogy.

For example, I would imagine most people on this site would regard the fact that African Americans are disadvantaged - on aggregate - within America society as a whole. A typical right wing response to this is that either a) African Americans are innately inferior, which explains their disadvantage, or that, more commonly, b) their poverty is their own fault and if they just worked hard, they would be equal to white Americans. Now while b) is not a completely illogical or unreasonable point, I also think it is grossly simplistic and willing ignores hundreds of years of racism, apartheid, and systemized government-created, disadvantage, in both obvious forms (JIm Crow in the South), and less obvious forms (FHA housing policy, redlining), not to mention all kinds of subtle private forms of discrimination (bank loan policies, real estate "steering," etc.). To say that these historical and political factors have nothing to do with contemporary race relations strikes me as absurd. Now, of course, this does not thus justify anything African Americans say or do because they have been oppressed.Of course not. For example, gang violence is wrong, regardless of this history. And neither is the idea that book learning as being "white" a sensible or legitimate form of "protest." But to address the question of American race relations (as well as some of its unsavory characteristics) with out acknowledging these factors makes one wilfully uniformed and ignorant, and potentially suggests a way of - perhaps unconsciosuly - justifying one's raacism.

I think a similar dynamic is playing out in some of the commentary I have seen on this website (and of course, elsewhere). Firstly, let us take note of the original context of the cartoon's publication. A populist right wing conservative broadsheet (fairly liberal by US standards) Danish tabloid Jyllands-Posten commissioned a series of cartoonists to draw depictions of Mohammed after a Danish children's book about Mohammed could not find an illustrator because prospective illustrators did not want to depict Mohammed, fearing a personal backlash, as any depiction of Mohammed is regarded as sacreligious by many Muslims. That is the immediate background.

Also important to note is the larger question of Muslim immigrants - primarily from Middle Eastern nations - to Europe since World War II, and the attendant political problems this has raised, especially in the last decade or two. Most of you I'm sure are aware of the murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh by a Muslim extremist in Holland a couple of years ago. This was an event clearly related to the conflict between Dutch secularism and the still strong religiousity of a large segment of the Islamic populastion of Holland, which is almost all foreign in origin. This is an important point - in the context of Europe, Islam is "raced" in a way it is not necessarily in the broader Islamic world (I will return to this point). Similarly, a more secular version of these kind of conflicts has recently occurred in Britain - in significant riots in places like Bradford and Birmingham - between whites and South Asian Muslims (although not because of issues relating to Islam) and likewise in France, most famously in the "banlieu emeuts" of last November, involving primarily youth of North and West African origin. While neither of these conflicts was about a religious issue, they are evidence of the larger theme of third world immigration to Europe and the difficulties this has posed.

An important flipside to these conflicts has been the rise of nativist - and in some cases borderline fascist - political figures and parties who have been quite explicity anti-Muslim, anti-"foreigner" (particularly anti-third world foreigner) as a response to the anxieties these kind of culture clashes have provoked amongst "white" Europeans. Some of these groups and figures you have probably heard of. For example, Jean-Marie Le Pen's Front Nationale, Pim Fortuyn in the Netherlands, the recent election of Jorg Haider in Austria, and, recently, in Denmark, when immigration restriction was important plank of platform bringing a rightist-coalition government to power. While these might be some of the more notable instances of this political turn, this anti-immigrant/immigrant question has become central in most European countries, launching a number of single issue parties (or at least parties whose primary appeal is based on stopping immigration).

Currently, Denmark has a population that is 4% Muslim, primarily drawn from Iraq, Palestine, Syria, and Turkey. Not unlike in other European countries, these immigrants have largely come to a society previously almost 100% "white," that is often radically secular (for example, Denmark legalized gay marriage in 1989 (!) and it has some of the most liberal laws dealing with pornography in the world - for example, tabloids publish covers with naked women frequently), and have occupied a position on the social structure that is marginal - that is to say, in lowly paid jobs. Also, like in other European countries, there has been serious concern that these Muslim immigrants are too different to adopt properly to the norms established within the host society, and that if it is possible that they can, more immigrants of similar origin must be stopped or the society will lose its character.

It is in this context, then, that these cartoons were published. As such, I think is disingenous or ignorant to claim the question of their original publication is one of religion and blasphemy. Quite clearly, they were published in a context where Islam is understood as a cultural trait belonging to a specific minority seen as a threat to the Danish national character, a minority that is largely seen as a race in the context of Danish society, but of European society together. Thus, here, Islam is not simply "just a religion." Doing a caricature of Muhammed has a specific cultural and racial meaning and is not simply about some kind narrow, free-floating idea of Islam. In this sense, I would argue that this cartoon has a cultural meaning not unlike that of anti-Jewish cartoons in the context of 19th and early 20th century Europe, where a "religion" is mocked, but a religion held by an often disliked, and usually marginalized minority often viewed in distinctly racial terms by the host European society.

This is why I find some of the full-throated "free speech" champions distasteful and ignorant. This question is not as simple as you want to make it seem.

Then, the question of the subsequent reaction. Here, I think more criticism and defense of free speech principles are in order. The first wave of protests came after the cartoon was originally published in Jyllands-Posten in September 2005. These were largely "low key" and involved boycotts in several Middle Eastern countries - Bahrain and Saudi Arabia being the two of which I am aware. There was also a mission by a series of political leaders from the Islamic world to meet with Danish PM Anders Fogh-Rasmussen. Now one can argue that this response was innapropriate. Personally, to me, it seems over the top and gratuitous. But I wouldn't call it especially radical, either. As such, little of the world was aware of the controversy at the time. I can tell you I certainly wasn't, and I read global newsources daily - particularly from France, Canada, Britain, and the United States.

The more recent controversy blew up when the aforementioned Danish PM Fogh-Rasmussen decided to issue an apology to Muslims who may have been offended. Mind you, this is all he did. He did not make any promises that he would censor future newspaper editorials or cartoons. Or make any other specific political concessions which some leaders in the Muslim world - wrongly, in my opinion - were demanding. Now to me, Rasmussen's response was entirely appropriate.

But this response "offended" the editors of several European newspapers, who believed Rasmussen was "appeasing" Muslim sentiment by offering an apology for something that they felt he had no need to apologize for. in particular the German newspaper Die Welt. This decision was soon followed by more republications in other European newspapers. Subsequently, we have witnessed the indication of more serious and sustained protests in the Arab world, involving countries such as Turkey, Pakistan, Syria, Palestine, and Iraq, as well as amongst Muslim communities in Denmark, Britain, and elsewhere. A number of threats of violence have been issued, and in some cases, the violence has turned ugly, attacking the EU offices in Gaza, and most recently, torching the Danish and Norweigan embassies in Syria. Also, a Danish dairy company has been forced to close in Saudi Arabia, while a number of majority-Islamic nations have removed their diplomats from Denmark. Now, I agree that much of this subsequent reaction is out-of-line and is demaning things from Denmark it has no right to provide, if it is demanding anything at all. I also think that much of this reaction has become divorced from the original context of immigration and race within which the cartoon was originally published, and has - for many of those involved - become more directly a question of religion and blasphemy.

However, much of the "moderate" Muslim world has been deeply offended by the controversy, and not so much because of the blasphemy, but because of the gleeful defiance many seem to take with regards to offending Muslim sentiment more generally. For example, Hamad Karzai, a man for whom I have great respect, certainly a moderate or progressive Muslim with the uneviable task of trying to govern Afghanistan, has said the following: "Any insult to the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him, is an insult to more than one billion Muslims and an act like this must never be allowed to be repeated." Likewise, Ahmad Olzalp from Egypt (who I must say, if you click on the link and see his picture, looks quite westernized) has the following to say:

A lot of people here are really offended by the cartoon.

My main problem with all of this is: What was the purpose of publishing this cartoon? Was it simply to offend? If so, they have certainly managed to do so.

It certainly appeared to be malicious, which is not in the spirit of freedom of speech.

In Europe there is a lot of uproar when anyone's sensibilities are offended.

Take, for example, when Prince Harry dressed up in a Nazi outfit. The discussion was not about freedom of speech but what is considered offensive.

It's the very same in this debate.

People have to be very careful when they publish something like this. They have to make sure they know what they are getting into.

I have discussed this with friends who view it as a very personal attack on them as Muslims. This one has hit a little too close to home.

Freedom of speech should be protected but it should be used responsibly  

I am Muslim and I like to see myself as open-minded and I believe in freedom of speech, but it should be used responsibly.

But I do sympathise with others around me who have taken this to heart.

The fact is there is wave of prejudice against Muslims and Islam sweeping Europe and this was below the belt.

The perception of Islam in Europe needs to be addressed, but I'm not sure that publishing a full page of caricatures about the Prophet Muhammad is the way to go about it.

European misconceptions about Islam are perhaps understandable in the wake of the attacks in London and Madrid, but it's a small group of extremists doing this.

No doubt, there has been an overreaction on both sides of the argument.

The display of solidarity on the part of the European newspapers was an overreaction - to republish these pictures without context, just to take a stand, was wrong.

But then on the other side of the argument you have people making bomb threats, which is going way too far.

I hope it doesn't end like it did with Theo Van Gogh in the Netherlands.

It's a good thing that it has opened up debate about perceptions of Muslims in Europe, but the arguments need to be more constructive in order for this to have a positive outcome.

The Danish failed to understand how offensive it is to caricature the Prophet Muhammad. In the Muslim world we are not even allowed to have any images of the Prophet Muhammad, never mind ones that caricature him.

But if lessons are learned from this, it will be a positive thing.

In other words, I do not think Denmark should give into the demands some are asking. They have - and I believe this very strongly - the right to maintain the society along the lines they have established, which to me, seem like lines I would like the US to follow with regards to personal freedom and civil liberty. I also think that freedom of speech must always be the default position of not just progressives, but of global citizens more generally. But I think to glory in these cartoons and understand the issue simply as one of blasphemy is to be ignorant also. Jyllens-Posten should not be lionized for printing cartoons which - as I note - could arguably be seen as like anti-Semitic cartoons published in Europe from 100 years ago. While the situation is not exactly the same, "Islam" is also not simply a religion in the context of modern European society either. And I think we should keep this in mind.

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having a rabble of reactionary Islamic Puritans who make Oliver Cromwell look like Voltaire dictate what publications can or can't print, regardless of the content.  Remember the brave struggles to disestablish the Catholic Church from France and the brutalities of Franco and others who used religion as a club.
by Rick in TX on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 10:06:30 PM EST
for that thoughtful response. Maybe next time you could respond to what I actually wrote. I guess you have know interest in learning anything knew.
by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 10:14:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't disagree with the larger free speech point. But it isn't just this point. There are other narratives involved.
by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 10:15:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Very few in America today would smile upon someone donning blackface and performing minstrelsy's greatest hits.  It would be an unfair attack on an oppressed minority, and African Americans would be (rightly) be furious.  Nevertheless, the performer, no matter how wrong, would probably not get death threats and would be eventually (after the shock value wore off) ignored.  That is the difference.  Picketing, protesting, boycotts...all fine.  Opposing hate speech with rioting, embassy-burnings (in Syria's case almost certainly government-condoned), and threats against innocent people who just happen to share the perpetrator's nationality...those are wrong no matter the extentuating background circumstances.
by Rick in TX on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 10:26:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Point taken. I agree.
by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 10:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
plus a whole host of extremist anti-abortion weirdos have made enough death threats. Some have even been carried out. Oh add Ann Coulter to the list.
Then we get into the US admimistrations mass death threats in the form of the threat of invasion.
 
by observer393 on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 12:46:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So death threats are wrong. We all agree.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:28:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I misread you, I think.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:43:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just trying to eep a bit of balance when there are implications that there are not death threats in the US over "religious" or cultural issues.
by observer393 on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 08:37:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, can't say I have seen any lionization of Jyllands-Posten's action, except on LGF and suchlike, so that would seem to be a straw man.

On a side note, JP is not a "populist right wing Danish tabloid" but a conservative quality newspaper (with a broadsheet format last I looked, but that may have changed for all I know and is irrelevant). Its world news coverage is franchised in my excellent local paper, and I've never had any problems with it as a progressive. This makes me inclined to believe the assurance of the cultural editor, Flemming Rose, that his intention was not to attack a "usually marginalized minority often viewed in distinctly racial terms by the host European society" but to stand up for the right to free speech in a provocative manner. I'm also prepared to accept his word that he did not ask for caricatures but for the cartoonists to draw Muhammed as they saw him, however that might be. (And speaking of cultural context, check out my mini-sketch of Scandinavian mutual stereotypes from a while ago. One of the Danish characteristics is of relevance here.)

We all know, by now, that the editor screwed up royally, and some of us could have told him that in advance. By his careless ignorance he failed as an editor. But this is all beside the point now. As I've put it elsewhere, the international firestorm has much more to do with the manipulation of this issue by islamist movements with an axe to grind about "the Western crusade against Islam," and by various dictatorial governments that unsuccessfully vie with them for popularity.

The protesting masses of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, etc. etc. are hardly preoccupied with the Danish debate about integration of immigrants. No, they are riled up over: (i) perceived acts of sacriledge against the Prophet, and (ii) perceived attacks on the Islamic Umma (global community of believers) by infidels.

In turn, (ii) has to do with a sense of being oppressed by sleazy dictatorial regimes backed by Western powers, and in the case of Iraq, directly by the USA. There is also Israel, which said regimes wave before their populations as a red cloth to divert from their own kleptocracy. One may feel some sympathy here. But (ii) is also related to a sense of global humiliation at the hands of the technologically, economically, and martially superior Western civilization, which is not supposed to be superior in these ways, being spiritually inferior. I admit to feeling much less sympathy for that.

In any case, this has now become a matter of freedom of speech, whatever its origins on a southern Danish island months ago. To ignore this is to commit the genetic fallacy. I appreciate your unambigious defense of such freedom.

Thanks for your diary entry.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 10:24:17 PM EST
Thanks for your response. I had read that J-P was a tabloid, kind of like the Sun. Thanks for the correction.

As to the rest of your post, I agree. The issue - as it is now presented - is different from the issue when it was originally published.

 Maybe this is a strawman in the context of EuroTrib, but it isn't at Kos, where I cross-posted this diary.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 10:31:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This was a media event.  What media was behind it, or promoted it?   There's a clue there.  

It had a purpose.  

What purpose?  To stampede Europe to side with the US on Iran.  

You are being played.  

Think about it.  And if you can, prove me wrong.  

by Gaianne on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 11:13:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm afriad the onus of proof for your implausible conspiracy (?) theory is on you.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 11:16:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One point that I have never yet seen mentioned is that several of the cartoons ALSO make fun of JP and/or the cartoonists. One has "PR stunt" quite explicitly visible. The one with the kid stats that "JP's journalists are a bunch of reactionary provocateurs".

Which brings me to the point that I disagree with the almost universal opinion that these cartoons were pretty bad. There are provocative, sure - that was the explicit intent, but they are not without ambiguity, which is the hallmark of good caricature. And several I liked.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 06:06:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The west has a sense of entitlement, that they can have bombs, but not Iran, that they can kick ass but not anyone else, that they can bomb and kill tens of thousands of Iraqis, Afghanistan and other countries, and be untouchable.

Thank God we are coming to a time when the world is becoming like a bar. If you shoot your mouth off or dump on the other guy, your gonna get punched, no matter how big a bully you are.

The west writes the rules, divides the land and resources and kills with impunity, and the Muslim world is challenging that "right".

How about all the Akha and others who got killed in the western drug war in Asia, should the west be let off the hook for that?

Why does the west always preach its gospel of non violence while raining death and destruction down on everyone else?????

Maybe the days of western arrogance and gluttony are coming to an end.

http://www.akha.org The Akha Heritage Foundation

by Akha Drug War (akhalife at gmail.com) on Sat Feb 4th, 2006 at 11:27:25 PM EST
I can see where you are coming from, and your first paragraph is something I hear more or less every day.
It is something many in the West and not just the US need to hear.
by observer393 on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 12:39:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I give you a 4 not because I agree with your narrative or because your overall vision of the world is the same as mine.

I give you a 4 to compensate. Other people have said similar things to what you say (let's say from the other "western" camp, if you would like to call it that way) that were not "warned" with a 2.

It is true that you could have said the same thing using another tone or narrative.. but we always do it sometimes and get a pass. I understand the 2 given but I do not share their opinion.

I want to point out that I do not have any idea of what the Akha Heritage foundation so it has no influence (positive or negative) on my judgement.

A pleasure


I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:05:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Likewise.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 10:47:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the bar you describe? Why should we want a world in which shooting off our mouthes (surely a subjective characterization) results in our getting punched?

I would rather overcome Bush than emulate him.




"Democracy signifies rule of the majority, but not less the protection of minorities." Karl Kautsky

by another American (scwtlover at yahoo dot com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 08:01:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good diary Ben P, thanks.  Contextualise, contextualise, contextualise...  Thanks for pulling the details together.  And no thanks to the Euro press for pouring gasoline on the flames when some diplomatic action was finally starting to happen.

Some of the tension around this incident reminds me of a hostage situation.  The kind where the hostage takers say, if the police don't handle the incident exactly so and so, then the responsibility for the hostages' deaths is on the policemen's heads.  And obviously this is not true, since the person holding the gun and doing the killing is not the policeman but the criminal who took the hostage in the first place.  So that's BS.  They can't get off the hook that easily (any more than use some stupid toons and Western media posturing as justification for threatening lives or torching an embassy).

But OTOH, if you get an incident commander who is more interested in having a macho pissing contest with the hostage takers than in saving the hostages' lives, and he deliberately provokes the criminals and escalates the situation so that people get killed who need not have been killed, then he's not a good cop -- he is handling the situation in an irresponsible manner.  And the badness of the guys he's up against doesn't get him off the hook for being careless or reckless with the lives of the hostages.

This whole "cowboy showdown mentality," whether it's Dubya with his "with us or against us" ranting, or the Euro press deciding to stick their oar into the Danish govt's better-late-than-never attempts to contain the furore, is not imho either wise or good.  The guy who goes in with all guns blazing yelling "I don't negotiate with terrorists, they must be made an example of, it's the principle of the thing" -- or picks up the megaphone and starts yelling insults about their Mamas -- is not the guy I want handling the situation if I'm ever a hostage :-)  I'd prefer the good negotiator who's willing to talk patiently and make concessions even to unreasonable bad people, in order to keep the peace and limit the damage...  and in an increasingly angry, crowded, and running-short-on-fuel-and-water world, we're all hostages to some extent, of our own and other governments.  Just another way of looking at it...

On a side note, I'd wait and see whether the US-centred global economy tanks sometime before 2010, before I would confidently describe it as "superior."  It may be that a bunch of olive growers and sheep herders in the Back of Central Asian Beyond will be better positioned to maintain their lifestyle 20 years from now than the average SUV-driving accountant in a major Western metropolis, depending on how events shake out.  Now that would be ironic.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 01:22:09 AM EST
I think your hostage story is a good analogy for the practical aspects of this issue. However, it fails t acknowledge the ideological side of the debate, namely that attacks on religious taboos are one of the key building blocks of Europe's struggles to build a free society.

From a progressive perspective the real story that revealed the racism against Muslims in contemporary Europe this past month was that of Baden Wuertenburg instituting a special civic test for Muslims, explicitly justified by the argument that Muslims are to be considered inappropriate candidates for citizenship until proven otherwise, while for non Muslims it is the reverse (and thus no need for a test).  That's a clear cut example of racism in action and if there were mass protests about it, even violent ones, I suspect they'd get a lot more sympathy here at Eurotrib and among the European secular left in general.

by MarekNYC on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:07:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your elaborate argument contains many arguments that are undoubtedly true, but ultimately, when an educated Muslim presented in the most respectful way a fictional argument that cast barely a shadow on the life of the Prophet - I am of course referring to the Salman Rushdie case - he was promptly condemnbed to death and riots ensued.

Had there been a Rushdie Embassy in Syria, it surely would have been burned too.

You simply fail to understand (it seems to me) that to many, this is primarily a fight between progress and stagnation, enlightenment and obscurantism, a fight which truly is occurring within the Muslim world - westerns cartoons, mores (porn, etc.) and science are just a flashpoint.

Therew ewil be far mire flashpoints as the Muslim world is unavoidablt dragged, against the will of some, as the saying goes: kicking and screamning, into the 21st century.

by Lupin on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 02:44:24 AM EST
Lupin, this is plain clash-of-civilization talk. Is that what you mean? We are going to drag the Muslim world kicking and screaming into the 21st century? Really?

If the Muslim world evolves, it will be Muslims who will bring that about, not you and me. And the current drawing up of battle lines does absolutely nothing to help evolving, progressive Muslims, and everything to throw red meat to the traditionalist extremists.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:35:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"We" are going to do it because of the very fact of our existence. We're not on different planets and there is no Prime Directive. It's happened before and it will happen again. Scissors break rock.

This is really the expression of an internecine Muslim fracture. The cartoons are only the flashpoint.

by Lupin on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:05:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Frankly, I think this pollyannish. I think it is evidence of deeper European/western vs. Islamic world clash. I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find people in the Islamic world who think these cartoons were a good thing. Now that doesn't mean that 90% is out on the street burning embassies and calling for revenge either. But as the above comments I source show, people - moderates, progressives, fundamentalists - were generally offended. And some of them have gone way too far. But I think the divide is more serious and long-term than you'd like to believe.

We might, indeed, be in a clash of civilizations.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:14:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you responding to another post than mine? Because I see nothing in what you just wrote above that describes, responds or applies to what I said. To say I'm nonplussed is an understatement.
by Lupin on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:18:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I'm saying - see below - is that I don't think there is really a Civil War in the Muslim world as you understand. At least in the Islamic Middle East. What you have is a civilization with fundamentally different assumptions about how the world works.

This is why I'm reluctant to so strongly champion Jyllons-Posten, even though ultimately I know I have to. Because to do so acknowledges the unbridgability of the divide. Acknowledges that I am in the west and values its traditions, and have to defend them when push comes to shove. And recognizes that real understanding is just not possible right now.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:33:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But you can value Islamic traditions by placing a high value on the West's traditions of freedom.  The critical separation -- and the reason for why I do not subscribe to the "All Cultures Are Equal" view -- is that they can practice their values in our society, without fear of a government killing them or throwing them in jail.  We have the freedom to practice (or to not practice) whatever faith we like and criticize faiths as we see fit.

The same freedom does not apply in the Middle East.  The divide will be closed in the (probably distant) future, but, in large part, it's not our divide to close, in my opinion.  Religious intolerance, backed by the power of the state, is not an idea that will spread very far.  The right to say and do what you like, however, is such an idea.  I don't accept criticism on this topic from the thugs in the Saudi royal family, or from any other repressive regime based on centuries-old religious law.  Laws that treat all people as equals are superior.

I think we in the West also, especially on the left, tend to talk about racism in a way that gives the other side a great deal of room to argue and restricts our side.  (It's a principle that professors teach in debate.  Always show your opponent's side in the best possible light.)  We can, and should, talk about racism, and fight it constantly, but let's also remember that bigotry is not a Westerners-Only Club.  Quite the contrary.  The West, though guilty of disgusting behavior such as the slave trade, has fought bigotry.  We don't tell people how to live their lives, so long as they respect the rights of others.

The reaction from the Muslim world has been one of intolerance towards our values.  It has been loaded with bigotry.  And that is why, I think, we needed to draw a line in the sand on this issue.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 11:34:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bigotry is more present in the Islamic world, but bigotry is not the same thing as racism (if you'll allow these two words to stand in for a larger point). What I mean is that racism is a system where one has power, and uses bigotry as a means of exercsing and maintaining that power. Bigotry is ignorance and prejudice against others, defined as outsiders. Racism is the use of this bigotry in terms of maintaining and exercising power. And this is the difference.

As to your point about authoritarianism and religion, I think this relationship is being exploded right now. Not by the protests, but by the fact that democratic elections right now in the middle east favor more illiberal and more theocratic forces than the authoritarian/tyrannical forces which grew out of originally idealistic premises of anti-colonialism, third world autonomy, pan-Arabism, and socialism, which they are replacing. Mubarak, the successor to Nasser, being slowly replaced by the Muslim Brotherhood. The relatively (and originally quite) secular Fatah being replaced by Hamas. Saddam Hussein, legacy of the pan-Arabist Baath Party being replaced by Shi'ite (and now) Sunni Islamists. And so on. I don't think the dynamic will be and is any different in Syria and Saudi Arabia.

Finally, I think your assumption that somehow the Arab or even the broader Islamic World is destined to adopt western values or even enlightenment values, I'm not at all sure. Little in history suggests this inevitable. Its a conceit of a particular moment in history of a particular group of people. This isn't to say that they won't in some way adopt such values, but I don't think it is all clear they will either.

I don't really think China, or Russia, or Africa, or even Japan have really done so. They just don't have an immediate beef with us, or at least a beef that manifested itself so clearly. But they, I do, think represent this potential.

Finally, this means that I think it is foolish and counterproductive for us to expect or demand that they do adopt Western values. The kind of thinking many here are exhibiting making this assumption is what led us into the Iraqi train wreck.

 Of course, this means that they can't expect we will cater to what they want either, especially not within sovereign states. But its up to them what they want to do "at home," frankly. They have to sort their affairs out for themselves, which I'm sure, they can do over time.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:22:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I should say that what they do does matter to the extent that violent attacks are made and unreasonable demands are launched.

It is certainly of our interest that any kind of consensus that emerges from the Islamic world is willing to peacefully and respectfully interact with others. This is an important point.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:32:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do feel it is in some ways are responsibility to close. What do I mean by this?

Well, certainly not adopting Sharia law or even anything approaching it within, say, Denmark.

But to say we shouldn't know or try to understand the sensibilites and cultural traditions (in a broad anthropological sense) in the Islamic world is silly. There is - although I think it is changing somewhat - very little understanding of what the Islamic and/or Arabic world are actually like and what people there think, how they subjectively understand there world.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:39:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't use the word Civil War myself, but there is a fracture. I mean, between those who wish to move towards a more progressive society (while retaining core Islamic values, as, as much the US is a Christian Nation) and those who remain mired in a static, dogmatic past.

The fracture "explodes" when the past-lovers feel (rightly so) threatened that their world is crumbling, is being eroded by the contagion of the forces of modernity.  They then lash back.

It happened before and it will surely happen again, repeatedly, as the Musalim world grows increasingly connected with the rest of the planet.

(I'm not entirely without first-hand knowledge, through friends from North Africa and having written a series of stories featuring the Ottoman hero Dragut.)

 

by Lupin on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 12:59:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm seeing your point more clearly now. I agree.

But I think, also, it is important to remember that this kind of tension takes a long time to resolve and will have to occur from Islamic folks arguing it out amongst themselves and reaching some new kind of consensus that makes sense with them their cultural traditions. I don't think you'd disagree.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:25:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is basically what has happened in China, Japan, etc. and is to some extent happening right now in Latin Europe. And for that matter Europe and the US also.

Change often leads to reaction, which I think the rise of the Chrisitan right and political conservatism, more generally, is as well. In many ways, I see this trend as a similar - albeit much milder - result of increased globalization, mediatization (?), "connectedness," erosion of community autonomy and isolation, etc..

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:28:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think I might by myself a nice slab of Danish cheese the next time I go to the supermarket, because I think it is unfortunate that a small country such as this should become the target of worldwide outrage and economically meaningful boycotts. Denmark's values are frankly much like my own, and I think the US could it some ways benefit from learning from them.

Still, I know in doing this, I am taking a side in a conflict which is civilizational in nature. And that is not something I do with pleasure.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:48:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rock breaks scissors, actually.  Scissors cut paper.  Or are you not referring to "Rock-Paper-Scissors"?  (Ah, the games of my youth.)

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 11:04:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't fail to understand that. I just don't think this angle is the only angle there is to the story. Really there are at least two separate phases  (separated by 5 months or so) and a number of competing narratives involved. It is truly a fascinating event, if you take a step back for a second. Really, I think the first phase - the initial publication and the recent history of immigration and integration and the debates surrounding it - is different from the second phase, where "mobs" are demanding I don't quite know what, burning embassies and such. In the first phase, I think we need to be careful not to interpet this solely as an issue of free speech and religion. In terms of the second phase, I think we need to be certain not to give into unreasonable demands.

Also, I don't think this is quite the same as the Rushdie story, for reasons I suggest above. That Rushdie's book was a legitimate and very sophisticated attempt to reimagine Islam from someone from within the Islamic tradition. These cartoons - at least some of them - were half-assed attempts that were designed to offend. They weren't designed to advance discourse or to challenge fundamental beliefs in a serious way, and they weren't drawn by people who know much about Islam. While I stand with Denmark and free speech, I also don't think we should thus elevate these cartoons to the level of the Satanic Versus either.

Another thing I would point out is that the kind of Christianity that is ascendant in much of the world is also in many ways fundamentally illiberal and anti-modern. Especially in places like Africa. With the collapse of Marxism and related third world liberation ideologies, fundamentalist religiousity has come to fill the void. Islam in some places, Christianity in others.

Indeed, I'm skeptical of the ability of Islam as it is understood by a majority in the Middle East and liberalism to be compatible. The recent elections throughout the Middle East have proven this. The fact - it seems to me - is that more democracy means less liberalism.

Liberalism - broadly understood - is not on the march. It is embattled throughout much of the world. And this understandable in a situation of high poverty, political instability, and its attendant problems. When the lights are off and the trash is piling up and you don't have a job, freedom of speech becomes a less important issue - people will trade these luxuries for belief systems that can provide any semblance of order.

None of this thus means that we in nations with strong liberal traditions should thus compromise these traditions. Absolutely not. But it is also useful to take a step back and think of the big picture as well.

For a really good post that sums up my feelings, see Josh Marshall's latest.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:03:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re the Satanic Verses, I fully agree with what you say. But I'm not the one treating the cartoons as if they were the same. The radical muslims are. In effect, they're the ones equating sophomoric ignorant infidel humor with carefully phrased reflective thought by one of their own, rewarding both with death sentencdes.

That is the best proof IMHO of the fact that, in the greatest scheme of history, this is not "our" problem but an internecine Muslim fracture between enlightenment/reformation forces (which probably think the whole thing is beneath notice in the case of the cartoons and praiseworthy in the case of Rushdie) and obscurantist/stagnation forces who desire a progress-less, static world.

The flashpoint is the casrtoons today, but it could have been anything, in arts of science. A Mahometan shroud of turin-like discovery, dead scrolls things, anything really.

My point has less to do with freedom of expression, liberalism, etc. than it has to do with evolution vs stagnation.  One might argue that the West has gotten itself willingly dragged into an unstated Islamic Civil War for the last decade or so.

by Lupin on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:15:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Again, I'm much less sanguine here.

I think many in the West, especially since 9/11, have tried to reassure ourselves that there really is a silent majority that wants "modernity," "liberalism," etc. in the Islamic world, especially in the Middle East. Indeed, I think in some ways this is the assumption many who favored the Iraq War believed. I'm not at all sure this is the case, and the nature of this conflict right now demonstrates that we are two civilizations speaking from different assumptions. Certainly, there are liberals/"modernists" in the Islamic world, but if recent election results are any indication, they are a distinct minority. I mean: who are the big shots in Iraq right now: the Iraqi Muslim brotherhood, Ayatollah Sistani, Muqtada Al-Sadr. Islamists consitute a super majority in the Iraqi parliament. Same thing in Palestine. Same thing in Egypt, where the Muslim Brotherhood would have won a strong majority if a fully free and legitimate election were held.

Really, if you allow me to use a perhaps stretched analogy, what you have in the Middle East vis-a-vis the West is a situation a bit like you had amongst whites in the Jim Crow South during, say the first half of the 20th century, vis-a-vis blacks. There is/was, in both cases, a group of citizens who are "liberals" but they are weak and marginalized minority. What you have is really have in both situations are groups that disagree on tactics, but not on basic ideology.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:30:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
there is an unwritten assumption in this post which I think is naive and dated. That there is somehow an end point to history/human existence, and that the Muslim problem is that they just don't "get" it yet.

I think if we look back in time, throughout human history and across global societies, the story is of humanity is not necessarily one of progress or coalescence around a shared set of values. Case in point is Russia's slow slide back into authoritarianism. Or the "inexplicable" fact China is not democratic despite its tremendous economic progress. Or the fact that the ascendant ideology in the Middle East right now is islamism, not some kind of more secular alternative. Or the fact that there are 10s of millions of Americans who right now literally think Jesus Christ is going to return to earth in their life time after a battle of armageddon - not to mention the 100s of millions globally who think this. We only worry about the "inexplicablitiy" of the Islamic situation right now, because it is challenging are values directly. But all these others - and many other situations I could mention - fundamentally challenge what I would argue is a concept of world development distinct to late 19th through 1960s western thought that enlightenment values are inevitably the end point of history at which all will arrive. That science will triumph over superstition, that secularism will triumph over reason, etc.. These things aren't going away, though.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:17:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Ben P, for writing this much-needed contextual piece.

Unfortunately, I have little time to be online at the moment and have only just been able to read the debates on ET on this subject. Your position is pretty much mine. I'll recommend your diary and in this way cast my vote, in the camp of DoDo, Migeru, kcurie, DeAnander, the stormy present, Londonbear, and others I may forget.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:40:45 AM EST
sincerely hope that ET is not splitting into "camps" -- that would be very sad.  I think that this controversy reveals different ways of thinking about Rights vs Responsibilities, and that our underlying philosophies and assumptions are exposed (and can be re-evaluated by ourselves and everyone else) in the light of the moral dilemmas and contradictions of this story.

Here's my quick riff for the evening, and it echoes the parallel of the beam and the mote.

Much is made of the "backwardness" of the Muslims because of the violent and barbarous threats of their Angry Young Men against uninvolved individuals (collective punishment, mob violence for ethnically-motivated revenge or blackmail, or just the katharsis of unfocussed rage and macho bravado).  But I do not notice much being said about, for example, the backwardness and barbarity of the tactics used by the US and other states against Iraq -- blockading medical supplies and damaging civilian infrastructure to deprive people of clean water and electricity, heavy aerial bombardment, embargo of critical medical supplies, collective punishment, etc.  Is siege warfare and the hostage-taking of an entire population any more civilised than burning embassies?

Is such behaviour somehow respectable or legitimate because it is done on a grand scale by professionals, coldly planned for profit and geopolitical advantage, instead of on a small scale by a lot of yobs whipped up into stick-waving frenzy by skilled demagogues?  Can anyone look at the conduct of a significant chunk of the "coalition" armed forces in Iraq, or read interviews with the US rank and file, without thinking that many of these (including a frightening percentage of the officer corps) are just another bunch of ignorant yobs cranked up to do mob violence?

We cling desperately to the things which we believe make the West "superior" and "civilised," but how does the rest of the world perceive us, on the basis of our governments' and our armies' actions abroad?  We steal, we bribe, we threaten to with-hold desperately needed aid if governments do not knuckle under to our corporate bigshots.  We send in armed force to protect private business profits, we assassinate popular leaders and shore up dictators, we try to loot even the rain.  How many journalists have died in prison under dictatorships directly supported by funds from the US, EU, etc?  Where was our tender regard for press freedom when we were supporting those regimes?  (when we still are supporting some of them?)

I say this not to claim that the West is somehow worse than any other cultural/economic bloc, but just that we don't seem to me such a heckuva lot better -- not so much better that we can stand up on a pedestal and point down, contemptuously, at others as so very 'backwards' and needing to be taught a lesson in how civilised people behave.  The most I can say -- and lucky we are too -- is is that thanks to imperial power and the core/periphery dynamic, most of the brutality and repression required for the maintenance of our elites is exported and dumped on other people (like our other toxic wastes) rather than on us fortunate citizens of Empire in the core...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 02:48:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But I do not notice much being said about, for example, the backwardness and barbarity of the tactics used by the US and other states against Iraq -- blockading medical supplies and damaging civilian infrastructure to deprive people of clean water and electricity, heavy aerial bombardment, embargo of critical medical supplies, collective punishment, etc.  

Do you mean here on ET or in general? Because I take full responsibility for what I write here, but only partial responsibility for what our governments do (in our collective name)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 04:39:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I had no intention of identifying a split between camps on ET, and I don't believe that is happening. However, since there was (loose, imho) talk on one thread about a "minority", I simply wanted to state my position : with the relativists, the contextualists, the "situationists", not with the absolutists.

So I think you're right about Western brutality in Iraq not being perceived as "backward". If anything, it's perceived as hi-tech, state-of-the-art and more. But then, how much effort has been made to hide reality, and how much propaganda has been rolled out over how many years about surgical precision in warfare? That's how we are taught to perceive ourselves. It's not how we are perceived.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 11:27:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose my point was really that a believing, indoctrinated Muslim would perceive the torching of embassies or killing of hostages as "righteous force" much as fans of Fox News in the US perceive the sack of Baghdad and Fallujah as "righteous force";  it is the same general type of personality in each case, who applauds violence and barbarity when it comes packaged as "just war," as vengeance for real or imagined crimes, as Hammuraban justice, as a "blow for freedom" -- who believes that there is such a thing as righteous cruelty, that torture can be justified, that collective punishment can be justified.  I see this mindset generally as savage and unappealing and dangerous.  But I don't see it as peculiar to one ethnicity or cult, and that's why I keep objecting to the "Muslims are just like that" meme.  

Sure, a percentage of Them are "just like that," and so are a percentage of Us.  And their leaders cynically whip up and exploit the barbarian quotient in their demos, just as our leaders and media whip up the barbarian quotient in our lapdog "news" services and CivClash/Crusade speechifying.

... [musing] One gets the feeling at times that what people really hate about Islamist extremists is not that they kill people -- they have killed only a fraction of the number of people killed by the US in Iraq sp far, for example -- but they do it in low-tech ways.  I'm losing track of the number of times I've read of a "primitive" explosive device being used for a roadside bomb, and the horror that Westerners express about a beheading seems curiously absent if the beheading is done by shrapnel or a cookie cutter mine rather than by hand with an old fashioned sharp knife.  Burning people alive with WP doesn't shock us in the way that stoning someone to death shocks us, though if forced to choose I'm not sure that stoning wouldn't be more merciful (there's always the chance of a lucky shot to the head to knock you out before the awful end).

Sometimes it seems that our real objection to Muslim popular violence is that they are peasants, and how dare they strike back at Lordly Us with their ignoble, primitive weapons?  How infra dig, to be killed by an uppity Untermensch...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:25:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DeAnader, I'm becoming a raving fan of your musings. You should bundle them and have them published, so I can ask for an autograph. (Hah! How completely self-serving.)

But I don't see it as peculiar to one ethnicity or cult, and that's why I keep objecting to the "Muslims are just like that" meme.

As Colman writes above, "There are assholes everywhere." I'm really thinking that is a runner-up for my still absent sig-line.

Actually, I think I am more shocked by the fact that the modern "we" melt the skin of children (in Hunter's words) by WP, than by those stoning adulterous/raped women to death. And probably for the whole wrong reason you attempted to sketch out: us westerners, with all our technology and wars and earlier deaths, haven't we learnt our lesson yet? The number of deaths through history is a learning experience in humanity, cruel enough. If its gets too bad, we attempt another method, hoping that this time it will work out better than the last time. Because we have WP, and they have rocks, we should stop using it. If we would've rocks, we wouldn't know any better.

I hope that makes sense.

by Nomad on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 08:25:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman often sums up the point I was trying to make while using only 10 percent of the bandwidth :-)  what an annoying habit eh?  :-)

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 08:49:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
they do it in low-tech ways.

Yes, I think that's what I was lumbering towards. In fact, the Western Way of violence is sold to us as a sexy consumer-society package. Whereas those barbarians...

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 7th, 2006 at 03:28:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My main problem with all of this is: What was the purpose of publishing this cartoon? Was it simply to offend? If so, they have certainly managed to do so.

It certainly appeared to be malicious, which is not in the spirit of freedom of speech.

In Europe there is a lot of uproar when anyone's sensibilities are offended.

Take, for example, when Prince Harry dressed up in a Nazi outfit. The discussion was not about freedom of speech but what is considered offensive.

It's the very same in this debate.

This man is a moderate? He doesn't "get" what free speech is all about. The Prince Harry story is a good example, and as he says, the discussion was about whether it was tasteless or offensive, not about whethere he had the right to do it - because everybody agreed that he did.

With the cartoons, we have the exact opposite. I have not heard a single muslim voice saying that the papers had a right to publish these. quite the opposite, the pretty much explicitly ask that these cartoons be forbidden, that official apologies be presented - which by the way shows a terrifying ignorance of what the relationship between the press and governments is in the West - and that such caricatures never ever be published again.

If it was a matter of taste or offense to start with, it certainly isn't now. It is freedom of speech we are talking about now.


The Danish failed to understand how offensive it is to caricature the Prophet Muhammad. In the Muslim world we are not even allowed to have any images of the Prophet Muhammad, never mind ones that caricature him.

This is all bollocks. The JP knew exactly what they were stepping into. And the JP is not in the Muslim world, whose rules DO NOT APPLY in Europe, just like the rules of the VATICAN DO NOT APPLY.

Abortion is offensive to some catholics. The worst kind translate their offense into violence, and they are rightly condemned. The Muslim voices we hear today belong in the same category - fanatical ideologues.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 06:23:14 AM EST
Get ready for a clash a civilizations - which I think this is what we have - because this is about as fair-minded a reaction I have seen.

I frankly think you are being willfully obtuse here. You only want to see this controversy on one plane. And that is a legitimate plane. And your general point about free speech is correct. But not everybody sees the world as you do. And I think one should try to understand these other viewpoints. I think to see simply as an example of European anti-clericalism is a bit weak.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 06:37:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, in France there certainly is a strong streak of anti-clericalism to it. In fact, the only people that have spoken to defend the position that the cartoons should not have been published are the traditional defenders of the catholic church here, usually on the right.

In My case, there is a strong component of anti-clericalism, but the fact that I found these cartoons to be pretty benign, seriously. People get offended way too easily today.

And to answer Migeru's point yesterday (that I was selective in the bigotry I recognised, i.e. only anti-French and anti-Israel), the core of the problem is not that Muslims want to make us acknowledge the supposed tastelessness of the cartoons, it is that they want us not to publish these things, not as a courtesy to them, but as an obligation.

When I criticize the anti-French bias (as I see it) in the English language press, (i) I absolutely am not trying to prevent them from publishing their stuff, (ii) I am not contesting their right to have such opinions, (iii) I try to make more visible some hidden assumptions or prejudices, and (iv) I am trying to get across different perceptions or different facts, i.e. I am trying to bring new information on the table to try to convince whoever is reading me to weigh the original article differently. Here we are told that we must not represent Muhammad, full stop.

And I'll say it again. These cartoons are pretty tame, frankly (the original 12, not the additional 3, which are indeed highly offensive).

So the appropriate thing would have been for JP to publish a reply by a representative of the muslim community, explaining why they found such images distasteful or inappropriate, and informing readers that this would not be done in the Muslim word, and that they hoped that the Danes would extend them that courtesy even here in Denmark. And hey, it might even have worked.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 07:41:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the core of the problem is not that Muslims want to make us acknowledge the supposed tastelessness of the cartoons, it is that they want us not to publish these things, not as a courtesy to them, but as an obligation

...and we didn't accept that obligation. (Making public apologies is no such obligation.) Rasmussen could have told this to the 11 ambassadors instead of snubbing them, alongside with acknowledging the insulting nature. The above is not the core of the problem. The re-publications were pure posturing.

When I criticize the anti-French bias...

I think Migeru saw you not noticing Danish bias.

These cartoons are pretty tame, frankly

You are not the one to decide that. And to repeat our point, it's not the cartoons alone, it's the context and motivation too.

So the appropriate thing would have been for JP to publish a reply by a representative of the muslim community, explaining why they found such images distasteful or inappropriate, and informing readers that this would not be done in the Muslim word, and that they hoped that the Danes would extend them that courtesy even here in Denmark. And hey, it might even have worked.

On that, fully agreed. And this should have been done back in September already.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 01:58:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are not the one to decide that. And to repeat our point, it's not the cartoons alone; it's the context and motivation too.

Well, first of all, yes it is up to me and any other individual to decide that, as free and independent individuals.  And this is exactly the point Jerome and many of us are emphasising, that no one should be allowed to decide what we are allowed to say or do as long as it is within the legal framework of a society. By saying this you are depriving individuals their right to have an opinion and stating it.  I could illustrate this by saying who are you or any other individual (in this case Muslims included), to decide whether I am competent or even allowed to have an opinion on this matter?

The ban on depicting Muhammed is an Islamic ban and not a Universal one.  It is a religious ban and thus can not be expected to be upheld by non-Muslims or non-religious people.  You could, and often should, out of respect, refrain from doing such a deed, but you can not be forced to silence through violence or threats of violence.

As for the motivations behind this whole issue it is pure speculations and, although rightwing extremists have some splendid times these days, not very fruitful to ponder over given the fact that we have no conclusive evidence pointing towards certain motivations.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:12:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, first of all, yes it is up to me and any other individual to decide that, as free and independent individuals.

Decide what?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These cartoons are pretty tame, frankly

You are not the one to decide that.  

Yes I am and others too.  That is my prerogative as a free and independent citizen.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:24:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think Migeru saw you not noticing Danish bias.

No, he was saying I did not notice anti-Muslim bias with as much alacrity as anti-French or anti-Jewish one. Fair enough, but the site is open for others to do so, and indeed it is being done.


You are not the one to decide that

Then in which case you are not the one to tell me if I should be offended by the behavior of those that choose to represent the Muslims to the world. I am telling you that I am seriously offended by your presumption. Will you apologize to me now?

(I am asking you in jest, but the question is the logical outcome of your contention that the muslims have the sole right to decide what offends them).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:12:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, he was saying I did not notice anti-Muslim bias with as much alacrity as anti-French or anti-Jewish one.

That's essentially the same. And what relation does that have with what you then wrote?

Then in which case you are not the one to tell me if I should be offended by the behavior of those that choose to represent the Muslims to the world.

I never told you not to.

muslims have the sole right to decide what offends them

Offense is not a matter of decision. It is emotional. The form one expresses offense can de debated, but I have never challenged your objections to forms of showing offense by Muslims.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 03:58:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
People are free to see it differently.  But freedom of speech comes down to one issue: Do we, or do we not, have the right to say and do what we want, provided we don't violate the rights of others?  Does anyone have the right to control my body?  It all comes down to the right to one's self.  No one has the right to force his or her ideology on me.  It's my mind, my mouth, my hands, etc.  When you accept that, it becomes nearly impossible to see this on more than one plane.

Some issues are simply not complex.  Fundamental rights are (usually) among those issues.  The Muslim world has no right to force its values on us.  Mid-East governments are free to ask that we punish these cartoonists.  And we're free to say, "It's their right to publish these, and we have no right to punish them.  Deal with it."

I'm still stunned by the burning of those embassies.  Countries go to war over that sort of thing.  Attacking (say) the British embassy in Syria would be no different from attacking the London Underground.  And this, more than anything, shows an ignorance of the West.  The Danish government was not involved in publishing the cartoons.  The embassy doesn't represent the cartoonists and the newspaper.  It is, as I said in my diary, akin to burning your neighbor's house because your other neighbor drove over your mailbox with his car.

I say, again, this is what religion leads people to do.  This is what strict adherence to some book -- some. fucking. book. -- that was written two thousand years ago leads people to do.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 12:03:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I came here to write your post, but then I found you had done it for me - and better.

Some issues are simply not complex.  Fundamental rights are (usually) among those issues.  The Muslim world has no right to force its values on us.  Mid-East governments are free to ask that we punish these cartoonists.  And we're free to say, "It's their right to publish these, and we have no right to punish them.  Deal with it."

And they can boycot all they want, since they are free to do, they have that option. But not burning embassies or leveling death threats to the innocent. We need firmness in this case; the Arabic world turns to that wheel. Anyone read The Seven Pillars of Wisdom?

by Nomad on Sun Feb 5th, 2006 at 05:45:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But freedom of speech comes down to one issue: Do we, or do we not, have the right to say and do what we want, provided we don't violate the rights of others?
There is freedom to and freedom from. A lot of ink has been spilled by philosophers of ethics on the need to recognize both. There is such a thing as the right to dignity, self-image, etc... Hurling slurs is not an exercise of free speech that doesn't violate the rights of others. People have some right to go about their business without having to endure offensive language. Then again, the US constitution protects freedomof speech only, but (for example) the Spanish constitution has
Section 18
(1) The right to honour, to personal and family privacy and to the own image is guaranteed.
Section 20
(1) The following rights are recognized and protected:
a) the right to freely express and spread thoughts, ideas and opinions through words, in writing or by any other means of reproduction;
...
(2) The exercise of these rights may not be restricted by any form of prior censorship.
...
(4) These freedoms are limited by respect for the rights recognized in this Part, by the legal provisions implementing it, and especially by the right to honour, to privacy, to the own image and to the protection of youth and childhood.
There you have it. Now tell me the Spanish constitution is illiberal and backwards for not putting freedom of speech above every other consideration.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 06:04:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not, in and of itself, illiberal, but it most certainly lays the groundwork for very illiberal causes.  No one has the right to silence others because they find words offensive.  What's to stop a Republican from demanding that I be arrested if I state my view that the Republican Party is made up of fascists, pseudo-libertarians, and pseudo-Christian sociopaths?

If I say that communism and anarcho-capitalism are the foolish ideas of vicious ideologues with the brain capacity of a AAA battery (e.g., Lenin, Rothbard, etc.), have I violated the honor of communists and anarcho-capitalists sufficiently to warrant arrest and trial?

Your freedom from offensive language results from your having the ability to walk away.  Just. walk. away.  If we punish everyone who says something that some other person finds offensive, we're all going to spend time in jail.  It's too subjective and, as laws go, quite ridiculous.  When something offends me, I walk away, or change the channel, or pick up a different newspaper or magazine.  It's not very difficult.  I don't demand that the government come to rescue me.

The right to "honor"?  If people allow their honor to be damaged by some stupid cartoon in a newspaper, they're overly-emotional and need to seriously evaluate their beliefs, because, frankly, if your faith is so correct, in your mind, the words of a cartoonist shouldn't matter.

Offensive language, or cartoons, is not a violation of anyone's privacy, unless that person forces his way into your home to do so, at which point the crime goes well-beyond offensive language.  This is the kind of law that leads to morons like Hillary Clinton and Lynn Cheney being allowed to wage a war on silly crap like video games, instead of doing the right thing by telling parents to stop buying them.  "Oh, no!  My kids are playing Super Mario Brothers, and Mario just jumped on a Bad Guy to kill it!  Save me, Dubya!  We must smite the evil Nintendo!"

Considering the potential secondary effects -- always the killer in public policy -- I would argue that, yes, this is an illiberal law.  How has the law been applied?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 01:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find this irksome.
Your freedom from offensive language results from your having the ability to walk away.  Just. walk. away.
Maybe we need a discussion of positive and negative liberty, but this diary is not the place for it.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 01:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot of people in the pan-Arab world would like to walk away, just walk away, from Anglo/US occupation, from repressive regimes, from poverty, etc.  Or they would very much like the occupiers to walk away, just walk away, from the occupied countries.  But they don't have that option.  The nations that do the occupying, and the taunting and insulting and self-congratulatory preaching about Freedom, have no intention of walking away or even bothering to count their victims, and they have the brute force to back up their intransigence.

The first freedom is the freedom to say No.

I don't know whence comes this idyllic vision of a vast level playing field peopled exclusively by rational actors with infinite freedom of choice, but it doesn't much resemble the planet that I grew up on...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:06:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thatks, DeAnander, for finding the words that I could not.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot of people in the pan-Arab world would like to walk away, just walk away, from Anglo/US occupation, from repressive regimes, from poverty, etc.  Or they would very much like the occupiers to walk away, just walk away, from the occupied countries.

Last I looked, only one country in the region was under what can by any stretch of the term be called Anglo/US occupation.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:20:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The rest of them are under oppressive regimes which are clients of the US, or officiel enemies of the US to which the US subcontracts torture, and there is one region under occupation by a client of the US.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 05:25:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd like to say I'm planning to respond in an adult way to this, but, really, I'm just pissed off.

As is increasingly becoming the case with you, DeAnander, you didn't address my point (just as you routinely failed to address my point in the Wal-Mart thread, instead relying on emotion and attack, in that case), which was addressed specifically to the controversy over the cartoons.  I suspect you would find that you and I are in at least near-full agreement about US involvement in the Middle East (and South America, and Central America, and so on).  I'll leave the issue of Anglo involvement to the Britons here.

I also appreciate the generalization about "the nation" -- not the Republicans, or the neocons, or the Bushies -- having no intention of walking away or "even bothering to count their victims".  Nevermind the 48% of Americans who voted for John Kerry.  Nevermind those of us who opposed this war from the beginning, and who spent endless hours doing everything we could to stop Bush from winning a second term.  It's the whole damned nation.  We're all a bunch of blood-spilling sociopaths, aren't we?

Unbelievable.

Nothing would make me happier than to see America rid itself of involvement with the current governments in the Middle East, whether Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Israel, or whatever.  Not one of those governments is worth a dime to me.  Don't drag me down because of the actions of people I've worked to stop.  You're more than welcome to call things as you see them, but don't throw out broad statements about Americans' views and attitudes and expect me to not respond by saying that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Feb 6th, 2006 at 08:44:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
see, people do get angry when you generalise about their nation or religion...  just don't burn my embassy, OK?  :-)

more seriously...

afaik Kerry has not once repudiated the invasion of Iraq, but has only claimed that he would have done it better.  ditto that beacon of Democratic hopes, H R Clinton.  when the Dems identify themselves as the anti-war party, then the world at large will perceive America as a divided country;  but the narrative of American media and the political spin of the major players is that the anti-war contingent is a tiny fringe of marginalised malcontent lefties who show up at ANSWER events.  (this is of course not accurate, as I've been to those events and seen the broad spectrum of ages and political plumage there -- and it ignores critics from the Right like PC Roberts and J Raimondo -- but it's how things are spun by the media machinery.)

I live and work in the US and have for many years.  I did everything within my small power to stop the invasion of Iraq -- I also decried and protested the US' earlier buddy-buddy-ness with Saddam 20 years ago, as it happens.  nevertheless I do personally benefit from the policies of Empire, as well as personally paying for them and experiencing some disbenefits.  I pay taxes to this government, instead of taking the path of conscience and becoming a tax resister.  in my view, I share the responsibility -- even though I am not a US citizen -- much as a moderate Muslim who donates money to a group whose radical cadres carry out violent or extremist actions shares some responsibility for their actions.  at least that is mho.

and though metacomment is seldom productive... gingerly I venture to wonder when or where I ever said that I expected anyone not to respond?  when I assert a strong opinion I expect a certain number of people to disagree with me.  that's just life.

you do seem to be getting a bit riled here, which concerns me as the tone of debate at ET is generally civil even when str