I've been off island for a couple of days so I apologize if zinn's article has been posted. It just struck me as so right on.

alohapolitics.com

Few nations (and I suppose, few individuals) have found it possible to come to terms with all the worst parts of themselves, so I don't think it is by any means a uniquely USian problem.

The exceptionalism grates on me, but I don't think it is easy to fix. It is a deep rooted ideology, taught from kindergarten on. Now, it should be noted that most countries are the same way, it's probably only the US and China (maybe Russia too) that are large enough to sustain the myth in such a comprehensive manner. I guess I would recommend that open-minded individuals from the US should examine Chinese exceptionalism and perhaps it will throw some light on their own ideology.

However, I think for me the sheer amnesia (which again certainly occurs in my own country also) is for me the really scary part. Whenever Iran is discussed, particularly on dKos, it seems there are plenty of commenters from the US who don't remember how the Iraq saga unfolded and continually make the same remarks:

"There's no solid evidence that the Bush admin wants war. There's other people involved in this, how can you say Bush is the prime mover, everyone agrees Iran is a problem."

They don't seem able to remember saying the same things over Iraq or if they do, their attitude is so ahistorical as to think that what happened last time is not relevant to what is happening now.

Here is a well-written book on the subject:

Myths America Lives By

The author only deals with historical cases (like slavery and the elimination of the Indians) so as not to get into the current debates.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

That is a great article indeed. But I still believe that there are many Americans who can clearly assess the situation and do not allow to be manipulated by the Bush administration. And, fortunately, the number of these people increases.

What is probably worse is what the current US  government is doing to other countries by using its influence as well the poor states' need for support.

That is from an article that appeared yesterday in the Bulgarian press. The issue about US military bases in Bulgaria has been discussed for more than a year now, and is quite a controversial topic. Somehow, our government is still unable to combine the desires of the public in Bulgaria, and the US government.

The US has asked to be given access to a three military bases Bulgaria. The problem is that the US demand that Bulgaria grants them unlimited access to its military bases and equipment, and Bulgaria does not agree.

Some call it protecting the national interests (2), others call it waiting for a better trade-off... $$$

"Our life is shaped by our mind; we become what we think." - BUDDHA

Why single out Americans in your poll? Can any nation see the truth about themselves.  

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying

America and Americans are slaves to a corporate controlled media. Zinn needs to acknowledge that this is less about ideology than it is about money. The dysfunction is part of the system of commerce, less so in the system of education. These questions are addressed at the secondary levels and in higher education, as they should be, but there's a dissonance between what information is offered in schools and the information provided by the corporate media. That's why corporations are bankrolling groups to attack professors inside universities, because that's the only place you'll find historical truths in the US today.

As for dkos, it's a wing of the Democratic party. So, you're going over to a blog filled with Dem Party stalwarts and asking them to consider something that's quite outside their means: an understanding of the country that supersedes the party. I don't want to come down too hard on the blog but much of what you get over there is mindless party drivel. Otherwise, it's a sometimes excellent source of discussion of civil rights and economic issues of the sort Jerome often presents.

The biggest mistake people make is using sentences that begin with something to the effect of "Americans believe...."  America is hardly what you can call a united country, in terms of beliefs.  Just look at the election results.  There are a handful of swing states, but most states are solidly in one column or the other.  And the swing states are becoming fewer, when you read the polls.  (Nevada was once solidly red but gives the GOP one of the lowest approvals of any state today.  I guarantee you that Nevada goes blue in 2008.  Colorado and Ohio will go blue in '08 or '12.)

The country is also divided, in terms of education.  Southerners are generally poorly educated.  Northerners are generally far more intelligent.

The trap Zinn is falling into is believing that Bush has the political capital to launch another war.  He does not.  (Zinn also seems to have a tendency to talk about Americans as though we're all a bunch of morons.  And, as I recall, Zinn endorsed Nader, whose aides freely admitted that he only wanted to sabotage the Democratic effort, in 2004, which hardly speaks well for his desire to end the Bush reign.)  Further, we don't have the resources to do it, anyway, which is probably the reason for Iran not caring about what we say.  Were it not for Europe getting tough on Iran, there would, literally, be nothing to talk about.

That's why I'm not terribly concerned about a war with Iran.  Bush would have to launch a military draft, which would immediately result in a collapse of American support for anything he would want to do -- not to mention that the Supreme Court and the Congress would tell him to go to hell.

Where does Zinn get the idea that we haven't faced "our" ethnic cleansing of the past?  (I'm not a follower of the idea that it was "our" fault.  I wasn't involved, Professor, nor were my ancestors.  Speak for yourself.)  I know of no American who doesn't understand what we did to the Indians.  But, if you bring it up with most Americans, I think they're likely to ask and say, "What do you want me to do about it?  I wasn't involved in it."

The entire "The Son Will Pay For The Sins Of The Father" line of reasoning is, in my opinion, nonsense, because it's punishment brought against people who were not involved in the crime.  Is it somehow my fault that my neighbor's ancestors owned slaves?  My parents and grandparents were supporters of Civil Rights, as am I.  So why does Zinn believe that this is partly my fault?  That's bullshit.

I'm completely in agreement that Americans and all people of the world -- because, let's be honest, no nation has a completely innocent history -- should look at both the good and the bad of history.  But it's difficult for me to take people like Zinn seriously when they try to pass blame for something onto people who were neither involved nor even connected.  That line of reasoning has got to go.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

I have as many problems with America and Americans as the next person, maybe more.  But I no more like to hear this kind of framing than I like frame of the song "I hope the Russians love their children too."

Fact is we are all humans and America is certainly not the first nation to get duped into following a madman against our best interests or having national arrogance.  Nothing unique here.  If anything, we've finally been presented with the evidence that, alas, we are not immune to the horrors that have faced other, we are no longer exceptional.  Good lesson to learn, IMO.

I've taken no scientific polls, but a ton of people see Bush for what he is, know that what we are doing is wrong, and what to change it.  I can't walk down a street without seeing a sticker or flyer or button calling for an end to the war.  I was in Dennis Hastert's district this weekend and there were symbolic coffins lining the streets and a permanent anti-war exhibit.  And everyone was honking and clapping for them!  So it looks like people are coming around to admitting that they may have been wrong...

I love Zinn and think he is required reading but his statements here seems a bit shy of the realistic.  We do need to face our history, but I do think we are beginning to.  And to challenge the current culture.  

I don't know, I guess the whole idea that American's aren't capable of something is not only annoying, but not constructive.  Are we willing to, and what things need to be in place for us to "recognize the truth about ourselves"?  Education is a huge prerequistite.  Ignorance is different than but can lead to arrogance.  Let's spend our time educating and challenging people instead of judging them as incapable.  Because judging is only going to make them more resistant to our efforts.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

The ignorance is definitely caused by a lack of good education, which results partly from an attitude: the U.S. is entitled to its entitlements, the U.S. is a story without comparison, the U.S. needs to give an account of itself to anyone except...whose name I dare not utter.

I think you're a couple decades out of date on the view of what was done to Native Americans. Those westerns that have dealt with the 'cowboys and indians' (or soldiers and indians) theme more recently have generally shown whites in general quite negatively, with the exception of the obligatory 'good' white as hero. Think the recent TNT mini series 'Into the West' or 'Dances with Wolves'.  

In general I find that Americans are pretty good at acknowledging long ago wrongs, not so good about more recent ones - but that's normal.  So the horrors of slavery or the ethnic cleansing of the Indians is pretty much the consensus view these days, while things like the atrocities in Vietnam or Latin America are either unknown, denied, played down, or relativized.

Germans are quite good on the Nazi period, but pretty ignorant about other things e.g. Southwest Africa. It took the French a good four decades to come to terms with Vichy, many still haven't done so with their colonial past. Your average Pole goes into denial regarding their past mistreatment of Ukrainians or Jews. Russians, as we have seen on this site, seem to have a few problems acknowledging their own historical misdeeds.  The Japanese seem to have serious problems with WWII.  Turks rather obviously don't want to think about what they did to the Armenians.  Not sure how much the Spanish think about what they did in Morocco or the Americas (Migeru?, kcurie?) and many still seem to just want to forget about the Civil War and its aftermath. How much do Italians learn about their actions in the Balkans during WWII or Africa in the thirties (de Gondi?)

As for Zinn - can't stand him. To me he seems to be only marginally better than his polar opposites of the rah, rah, America popular history crowd - just as one sided and simplistic and thus equally bad history, though given the  choice I dislike the complete focus on the bad a bit less than I do the whitewashing of the past due to the respective politics of both stances.

I think it is possible for America to open it eyes...maybe not probable...but then, if the US goes on and loses the Iraq war, there may be an opening for some discussion about humility and reality. But it depends who's talking...would take quite a diplomat. I do agree with Zinn that the US & all Americans need to come to terms with our history though...and our present...and having just been to Egypt, it is difficult to realize that such a friendly and polite people do have ill feelings towards the US because of the treatment of Iraqi's. It's sad and difficult (and I was told it was best to keep a low key about being an American...). Reality is out there waiting...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

Another dimension to this is that everybody hates the biggest and richest kid on the block, no matter what he does.

In Iraq: Meddling where we don't belong.
Not in Darfur: Ignoring helpless victims of mass slaughter.

The most likely outcome of Bush's little adventure in Iraq is a return to isolationism. The Dubai port debacle being a good example of bipartisan agreement on how we should withdraw from the nasty old world.

He then enumerates American deceits and transgressions against others from 1846 until the present. It turns out presidents, Polk, McKinley, Wilson, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Elder Bush, Bush the younger etc. all lied big time. Mainly lies of avarice and greed, Zinn point out the hypocrisy of Americans:

Did I miss the memo where we Americans claimed we were perfect?  We are not,,,and if this is a newsflash for you, maybe you should check your history books.  btw, how did Zinn miss that Lincoln lied--how did he miss that Martin Luther King lied?,,Clinton lied????---Did Hitler lie?,,, did Chamberlain lie?

Frankly, I think I should let this be.  And maybe ask each of you to look into the history of your country, and see you how you might stack up to America--Germany,,,France,,,Japan,,,USSR/Russia??

In America we allow Howard Zinn's to speak,,,Iran,,,North Korea,,,Syria?  Sure, Howard could speak there just......