How much on fire was your country?

by DoDo
Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 10:28:21 AM EST

Alex wrote in my March 15 thread:

Each time I read about something like this, I get reminded that for 150/200/250 years (at least in tracable terms), people have fought and died in the name of social rights and freedom.

Meanwhile, Keone Michaels has a diary up about American history, which got me thinking about something else: that maybe different attitudes to revolution and revolutionary-speak aren't connected to the importance (the USA was born in one!) but the frequency of them in contemplated/taught history.

So, just to test the hypothesis, I'd like to collect this for as many countries/nations/regions as possible: how many revolutions in history?




For the USA, I guess we can make that two - the Civil War was kind of one. (Free slaves, called maroons, were a widespread phenomenon in pre-independence times, but never a contry-wide movement.)

For Hungary, I was taught of seven major revolutions/rebellions (1604-1606, 1672-1685, 1703-1711, 1848-1849, 1918, 1919, 1956), one pre-empted revolution (1795), and three major peasant rebellions (1437-8, 1514, 1784) at school.

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Ireland had a few little spats along the way. We sort of of lost the taste for it with a nasty civil war though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:14:06 AM EST
France had 1789, of course, then right after that the Wars of Vendée (very serious anti-revolution of catholic peasants, with anything between 40 and 200 thousand dead, who didn't want to be conscripted for the wars that France was engaged in with EVERY european country/monarchy after killing the king) ... then we can arguably say that La Commune was another one.
by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:18:22 AM EST
I also suppose the war on the Cathars was a sort of massive anti-revolution of sorts (13th century). Forgot about that one. I always forget about that one.
by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:21:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
La Rochelle, too. (Les Trois Mousquetaires!)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:27:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And 2006 ... just wait and see ;))
by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also 1830 (Les Miserables!), 1848 (Marx!). Kind-of: 1968.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the Wars of Vendée

Victor Hugo: Quatre-Vingt-Treize!

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:29:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The C16 Wars of Religion could be considered as revolutionary, since the Protestants aimed, for a long time, to take over the country and change its religion. Those wars had long-drawn-out repercussions in the C17, involving violence (mainly against Protestants and leading to loss of their rights and exile) and insurrectionary episodes, in particular the Guerre des  camisards in the early years of the C18.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 03:07:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To many to recall them all : first one I remember : Belgians under Boduognat and Vengetorix fought the Roman legions under Cesar in 7 B/C  well documented in his 'De bello Gallico'...euh.... we lost that one.

Last big fire I was in : 1968 ...hell broke loose in Belgium for all kind of things, even the government had to resign in the holabaloba .....euh ...donno if thatone has ended yet.  


The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:35:46 PM EST
Hey, the Vercingetorix bit was a joint venture, Franco-Belgian ;))
by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:55:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
now I know why we lost :)

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:58:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Was there a Belgian revolution against the Dutch?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 01:26:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes , 1830  independence of Belgium after the Dutch were trown out. But rather a resistance of the Catholic-French oriented bourgeoisie against the Dutch protestants.

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 01:36:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wish someone would write a diary or at least a comment about the dynamics of the 1930 revolutions. (I knew only the French one - I only discovered that it was the second [of four] European bushfire a year ago, when I attempted to pinpoint European periods of peace by exclusion, i.e. by tracking down all European wars...)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 02:06:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
1830.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 02:06:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Russia: 1905 & 1917.  And I think an argument could be made for 1991.

I'm not sure "peasant uprisings" should be included.  First, they're probably far too numerous and even poorly documented to count.  Heck, there were even peasant uprisings in America.  These events are often the precursors to or aspects of revolutions, but not revolutions in and of themselves.  I suppose I consider revolutions as things which actually accomplish the overthrowing of the government.  (But by that logic, the 1905 Russian revolution or the Paris 68 uprising can't really be included either.)  

Hmmm...


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:47:44 PM EST
I would absolutely include 1991, as the overthrow of the USSR was accomplished.
by slaboymni on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:53:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point.
by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is a failed revolution not a revolution?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 01:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not sure. Isn't the term traditionally used to refer to the overthrowing of a regime?  And something about the idea of a complete rotation.

Just trying to figure out what differentiates an uprising from a revolution.  Seems analagous to a battle v. a war.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 01:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure "peasant uprisings" should be included.  First, they're probably far too numerous and even poorly documented to count.

Agreed, but I only counted "major" -ones - e.g. ones with a countrywide or at least regional reach. (Of the three I mentioned for Hungary, the first and last engulfed all of Transsylvania, the middle one grew out of a called-off crusade and engulfed most of the central flatland areas of the Carpathian Basin. Britain had at least one such giant uprising, Germany IIRC two, Bohemia and surroundings - e.g. the area of the Czech Republic - had the Hussite wars, and I can't recall in which century but I recall one big one engulfing most of Southeastern Russia, too.)

I suppose I consider revolutions as things which actually accomplish the overthrowing of the government.

Most revolutions didn't, or only did for a short time. The American Revolution and the French Revolution and the October Revolution were exceptions not the rule.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 01:23:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
China (1912?)
Czech(oslovakia) (1989)
Cuba (1959?)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 01:41:23 PM EST
Czechoslovakia 1989 is a revolution but not much fire and instead lots of key chiming and thus the name "velvet revolution".
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 03:06:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was reading somewhere that the regime changes that took place in the individual Eastern (sorry DoDo) Bloc countries in 1989-91 weren't really revolutions, but that the whole fall of the Soviet Union & Communism was one.  Whatever, I chose the Velvet Revolution because it was called a revolution. :)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 03:39:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Eastern (sorry DoDo) Bloc

Eastern Bloc is perfectly OK - in fact I more wince at Communist Bloc (not only because it was a fraud but because it was socialist officially).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 03:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"We're building socialism into the great communist future!"
by slaboymni on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 04:10:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly! And we have Real Existing Socialism™!

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 04:14:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
China 1930s: Mao, The Long March, etc.

----- Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it -Mark Twain
by blackspot (pmitov (no spam) @ gmail) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 06:51:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
England:

  1. Revolution and Civil War, 1642-1651;

  2. Its follow-up, the Glorious Revolution of 1689.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 03:17:05 PM EST
And the Dutch-lynching peasant rebellion?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 03:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A long, but very complete, revolution in North American history was the one by which the original settlers of the continent, who had crossed the land bridge from Asia many thousands of years before, were gradually deprived of their lands and, in a massive number of cases, of their lives, by European newcomers.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 03:23:24 PM EST
Just thought of this one while eating pasta (god knows how my brain indexing function works)

=> Mexican Revolution of 1910

by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 03:26:17 PM EST
Here is an obscure one: The Hatian Revolution.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 03:41:30 PM EST
I shall ask the French-resident here how obscure it is. (Do they know about the payments to France?)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 04:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The name of Toussaint Louverture, the revolutionary leader, is well-known in France, but the history of the revolution is little-known.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 16th, 2006 at 03:25:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Haitian Revolution still has great resonance in Africa, and solidarity with the world's first free black republic is frequently cited as historical justification for continuing involvement in Hatian politics, when, for example, one is offering asylum to Jean-Bertrand Aristide.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 04:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Speaking about Africa...

What about Mandela and the civil war in South Africa between 1990 and 1994. Thousands of people were killed during the fights between Mandela's ANC with the help of various communist/socialist groups, and the racist government, far-right white supremacist and Zulu tribes.

Also Uganda and its million victims, Congo, Sudan, etc. The list is long.

----- Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it -Mark Twain

by blackspot (pmitov (no spam) @ gmail) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 06:59:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm.  Again, I think perhaps a definition of "revolution" might be in order.  What's a revolution and what's a civil war?

Uganda never had a revolution per se.  A military coup does not a revolutin make.

A lot of killing also does not make a revolution.

I assume that by referring to Sudan, you didn't mean the Islamic revolution of 1989....  Sudan has had several of what would generally be considered civil wars, in which the sides have been divided by ethnicity, livlihood, religion and a host of other factors.  I suppose that if one of them were to have been successful, and spawned a new country hewn out of the old Sudan, then it might have been considered a popular revolution, but they have not succeeded and thus are still considered civil wars.  (Much like the American one, I might add.)

In that vein, I suppose Eritrea could be considered to have had a revolution prior to 1993.  Eritreans consider it a war for independence.

The people of South Africa generally do not think of their transition to democracy as a revolution, and I would add that the "struggle" (which is the word they use to describe the work of anti-apartheid forces both peaceful and otherwise) began long before 1990.  Yes, a lot of people died in political violence between 1990 and 1994 (and, in fact,  in 1995, and 1999) but that does not necessarily equate to a civil war, nor a revolution.  For as radical a transformation as that society experienced, what is remarkable about the level of bloodshed is not how great it was, but how small.

A friend of mine who's in her mid-30s now and went to school in Swaziland with some of the young lions of the ANC, and the children of the old lions, said it something like this:  "Thank God that Mandela and Sisulu and that generation were in charge.  Because I love my friends, but if they had been running the show, there would have been blood in the streets."

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Mar 16th, 2006 at 06:53:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Depending on what you define as a revolution. I define revolution as a change (or an attempt for change. Unsuccesful revolution is still revolution.) of a system (political, economical, cultural) through force and with mass participation. Revolution very often equals civil war: a group of people attempting to change something and other group that is opposing the changes.

Uganda might have started as a coup with the intention of changing the status quo but finishes as a large-scale violence between two groups.

A revolution doesn't have to be bloody. But it have to make attempt to change the status quo. You speak about radical changes. Radical changes cannot happen without revolution of some sort, whether political, cultural, industrial, scientific, etc.

----- Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it -Mark Twain

by blackspot (pmitov (no spam) @ gmail) on Thu Mar 16th, 2006 at 08:28:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, using your definition, Uganda still never had a revolution.  It had a series of coups, ethnic cleansing and an invasion by a foreign army with the involvement of maybe a thousand Ugandan exiles.  There was no mass participation at any point.  The change either took place at the top, or was imposed from outside.

South Africa also does not fit your definition, in that it was not change through force.  Although the armed struggle was an aspect of the anti-apartheid movement, it was only an aspect, and the leaders of that struggle were well aware that they would not achieve their goal through force alone.  The transition in South Africa was a negotiated one.  I understand how one could see it as a revolution, and it would fit some definitions of that term.  What I am saying is that South Africans rarely use that term to describe it.

The anti-apartheid struggle lasted for generations.  To speak of a "revolution of 1994" would negate the decades of work and struggle that led up to the democratic elections.  The ANC was formed in 1912; the National Party took power in South Africa and began institutionalizing its apartheid policies in 1948; the Defiance Campagain began in 1952; the Freedom Charter was adopted in 1955; Chief Albert Lutuli won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1960; the armed struggle began the following year, with the formation of Umkhonto we Sizwe (Spear of the Nation) in 1961.  I could go on.  The point being, one cannot speak of "the revolution of 1952-1994" without sounding ridiculous.

A luta continua!

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Mar 16th, 2006 at 02:23:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Haitian revolution lead to the withdrawal of the French not only from Hispaniola, but to the end of their dream of creating a "France of the West". Lacking the richess of Haiti (which was by far France's biggest source of income from a colony) it was impossible to develop Louisiana and to maintain the territories which strechted from the Gulf up to the Great Lakes. Hence France's offer to sell that landmass to the US for a pittance.

Haiti's liberation from France allowed the US to double in size and become the dominant power of the Americas.

Where the Hiatians rewarded for this?

Of course not. Instead their armed victory over the French troops was regarded as a direct threat to the southern slave states in the US. Haiti's ports were blocked and all trade with Haiti was prohibited. And France never forgave them for breaking away from her either.

Und so weiter. Until today.



"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Thu Mar 16th, 2006 at 03:38:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Beautiful photo, Ritter.

It's true that the loss of Saint-Domingue, as the French called their colony, was a huge blow to their interests in the "New World". But in fact French chances of dominating the North American continent had been scotched almost a half-century earlier by defeat in the Seven Years' War (known in America as the French and Indian War). Hopes of meaningfully linking and settling French territory from the Gulf to Canada were put an end to then, by the British victory in Quebec and the fall of strategic forts like Frontenac and Duquesne. US settlers were moving into the gap before the end of the century: the states of Kentucky, Tennessee, and Ohio were admitted to the Union in 1792, 1796, and 1803 respectively.

All of which takes nothing away, imho, from your point that Haiti has been a scandalously neglected and mistreated country since it became the first independent black republic in history.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 16th, 2006 at 04:19:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was far worse than neglect.

My Significant Other was forced to eat grass to survive after US troops had come to her parents farm in the mountains of Haiti and pre-emptively culled all their pigs because of fear that American soldiers could bring a pig desease back home to Wisconsin. Her family was never paid for their loss and suffered hunger because of it.

Read also (16 years after the fact!):

2 Mar 2006 16:45 GMT

...Grassroots International, joining forces with a national peasant movement, to reintroduce the Creole pig to Haiti after the United States, to protect its own swine industry following a 1980 outbreak of swine flu, pressured Haiti to kill its entire pig population.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Thu Mar 16th, 2006 at 06:25:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't know about that, and it is hideous (and unfortunately typical of US military/hygienic attitudes). I think I'll be thinking about that all day -- a place in the mornes, the soldiers taking the pigs, and nothing to eat. :-(
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 17th, 2006 at 06:37:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And now comes the real kicker, the cherry on the cake! After the US troops had culled the entire Creole pig population they imported a couple of ten thousand US pigs into Haiti. Fantastic, gorgeous, big and rosy meat machines! These pigs were, obviously, meant to be raised and bred in the cooler regions of this globe like Central and Northern Europe and places like, you guessed it, Wisconsin. The first Haitian farmers who got them were told by their American friends that these pigs were best to be kept in air conditioned stables and needed to eat imported feeds. It was - no surprise - a disaster. Haiti has no stabile supply of electric energy, farmers don't have the money to live in air conditioned houses, let alone to build a/c stables - and much less still to feed the animals with imported feeds. The project was stopped immediately. Haitian peasants quickly dubbed them "prince a quatre pieds," (four-footed princes). ...

Creole pig:




"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Fri Mar 17th, 2006 at 12:17:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My knowledge of Egyptian history is hardly encyclopedic, but depending on what one considers a revolution, I can think of two or three.

  • The revolution of 1919, a popular uprising in support of the Wafd, or "delegation," led by Saad Zaghloul, who'd gone to London to make the case for Egyptian independence after WWI.  (Hizb al-Wafd, or the Delegation Party, is still around, but didn't do too well in last year's elections....)  Egypt got a constitution and a "mostly" independent country in 1923; the Liberal Experiment lasted until 1936 before it collapsed under its own weight.

  • The Nasserist revolution of 1952, which overthrew the monarchy and established the Republic...

... and then there was the pseudo-revolution known as the "Corrective Revolution" of Sadat, following the death of Nasser.  It wasn't really a revolution at all, more of a policy realignment.

For the last year or so, some folks have been talking about the idea of a new revolution, or at least new reforms... which, if you ask me, were always just smoke & mirrors, and now that the elections are over, they're packing away the smoke & mirrors too.  It's getting right back to business as usual.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 04:08:25 PM EST
Seems like the ET crowd is fascinated by war!

What about the Industrial Revolution in England, America, and Germany? That certainly had a huge economic effect, moving the center of the economy from agriculture to factories.

And, perhaps as a side effect of that, the Antibiotic Revolution? Suddenly, in a period of a few years, countless numbers of people survived illnesses that would have killed them previously. It's amazing to read biographies of people who lived before the Second World War, because people died right and left. Practically everybody who survived had wives, husbands, children, and friends keeling over on a regular basis. Result: Suddenly people started to care about retirement--where previously you just worked until you died.

And the Scientific Revolution, where in Western countries, after about 1850 science began to overtake Christianity as the basis for understanding the world. And this didn't happen in all countries, and happened to different degrees in different countries...

by asdf on Thu Mar 16th, 2006 at 12:03:18 AM EST
after about 1850 science began to overtake Christianity as the basis for understanding the world
I'd push the beginning back by at least one century, but not much more. Around 1812, Laplace is reported to have told Napoleon that "God isn't a necessary hypothesis" to explain the origin of the Earth.

The "Scientific Revolution" is usually dated to the 17th century, but scientists only dropped religious speech during the 18th century. As late as 1730, De Moivre went into a short tangent arguing that the central limit theorem was evidence of the existance of God.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 16th, 2006 at 08:30:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For the Netherlands, not that much after the war of independence (1568-1648) which started party over taxes but ended with throwing the Spanish out.
In 1848, the revolutions abroad were enough to scare William II into a constitutional monarchy. FRom 1879 till  1980, there actually was an Anti Revolutionaire Partij (anti-revolutionary party), which supplied 4 prime ministers. It was mainly a protestant-conservative party. In 1918, the socialist Pieter Jelles Troelstra proclaimed the Revolution in parliament after soldiers revolts and other unrest. However, nobody seemed really interested. It must be noted though that the next right-wing government implemented some far-reaching social reforms, probably.
by bastiaan on Thu Mar 16th, 2006 at 07:06:59 PM EST


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