Saturday Open Thread

by Jerome a Paris
Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 09:18:03 AM EST

No semi-directional thread today. Write about whatever you want.


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Well, I found a study (in French) on Spanish real estate by BNP Paribas, with somewhat ambiguous results, and not enough hard info to diary. However, there are a couple of graphs that I wanted to comment upon:

This shows a comparison between actual prices (the top line) and theoretical prices on the basis of the net present value of future rent for the same place. The formula is included, it's obviously sensitive to a number of hypotheses like growth and inflation.

The graph is used to suggest that real estate is now somewhat overvalued, but it appears to be a recent thing, and there might yet be a catch up of rents as on previous occasions. So I don't find myself too worried by spanish real estate prices.

This one shows the amazing benefit to Spain of joining the euro (and also explains why real estate prices have gone up so much: debt has become a lot cheaper).

When we talk about Europe, and the dynamism of the economies of the periphery vs the continental ones, we should not forget that the continental economies also "gave" their better signature to the others at basically no direct benefit to them - if only to see their neighbors get more prosperous and integrated with them. That's what Europe is about, as well: the amazing catch up of those that were behind. Of course the central core is declining, relatively speaking: it was a choice.

That last one is an example of a VERY BAD graph. It has been built specifically to make it look like the evolution in the 3 countries is farily similar by dubious manipulations of the graph:

  • the base of the index is not given (it looks like 100=the peak of the early 90s market for each country, at different times, which is terrible methodology to compare them)

  • the graph does not start at zero;

The only relevant information is that the 3 countries have real estate prices that are similar in terms of ratio to the 1990 peak, but as we do not know from that graph how overvalued that peak was in each case, it's hard to know what to make of that information. Judging from the fall after the peak (-40% in the UK, -20% in France and Spain), one was more than the others. That makes the subsequent growth artificially underemphasised in the case of the UK (going from 60 to 170 is + 180%; going from 80 to 160 is +100%).

Again, my conclusion would be that the Spanish real estate market does not appear to be too horribly overvalued (with the French becoming bubbly, and the UK one having been bubbly and now on the cusp of - we don't know...)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 09:40:45 AM EST
From the first graph: that is an average 11% per year increase in the residential property prices over the last 18 years [260 to 1800 it seems to me], and 8% in the rental value [350 to 1450]. Note that the technique used by BNP-Paribas to convert rental prices to sale prices take into consideration the effect of changing interest rates.

It is an often quoted rule of thumb that housin costs should be around 1/3 of your income. Incomes have not increased at 8% per year, nor has official inflation been anywhere near that.

My interpretation of the graph is that there was an asset bubble on 1987-91 which then drove a brutal (3-fold) increase in rent prices until equalization in 1999. That's a 17% per year increase in rent in 1992-99.

We're in the middle of another asset bubble, which I think is indicated by the linear increase in property prices and the dip in rental prices.

By the way, it would be much easier to ascertain how the strength of the "bubble" today compares to that in 1987 if the vertical axis were on a logarithmic scale.  

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 04:53:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The day finally arrived. Forrest Gump dies and goes to Heaven. He is at the Pearly Gates, met by St. Peter himself. However, the gates are closed, and Forrest approaches the gatekeeper.

St. Peter said, "Well, Forrest, it is certainly good to see you. We have heard a lot about you. I must tell you, though, that the place is filling up fast, and we have been administering an entrance examination for everyone The test is short, but you have to pass it before you can get into Heaven."

Forrest responds, "It sure is good to be here, St. Peter, sir. But nobody ever told me about any entrance exam. I sure hope that the test ain't too hard. Life was a big enough test as it was."

St. Peter continued, "Yes, I know, Forrest, but the test is only three questions.

First: What two days of the week begin with the letter T? Second: How many seconds are there in a year? Third: What is God's first name?"

Forrest leaves to think the questions over. He returns the next day and sees St. Peter, who waves him up, and says, "Now that you have had a chance to think the questions over, tell me your answers."

Forrest replied, "Well, the first one -- which two days in the week begins with the letter "T"? Shucks, that one is easy. That would be Today and Tomorrow."

The Saint's eyes opened wide and he exclaimed, "Forrest, that is not what I was thinking, but you do have a point, and I guess I did not specify, so I will give you credit for that answer. How about the next one?" asked St. Peter.

"How many seconds in a year? Now that one is harder," replied Forrest, but I thunk and thunk about that, and I guess the only answer can be twelve."

Astounded, St. Peter said, "Twelve? Twelve? Forrest, how in Heaven's name could you come up with twelve seconds in a year?"

Forrest replied, "Shucks, there's got to be twelve: January 2nd, February 2nd, March 2nd... "

"Hold it," interrupts St. Peter. "I see where you are going with this, and I see your point, though that was not quite what I had in mind.... but I will have to give you credit for that one, too.

Let us go on with the third and final question. Can you tell me God's first name"?

"Sure," Forrest replied, "it's Andy."

"Andy?" exclaimed an exasperated and frustrated St Peter. "Ok, I can understand how you came up with your answers to my first two questions, but just how in the world did you come up with the name Andy as the first name of God?"

"Shucks, that was the easiest one of all," Forrest replied. "I learnt it from the song, "ANDY WALKS WITH ME, ANDY TALKS WITH ME, ANDY TELLS ME I AM HIS OWN. . "

St. Peter opened the Pearly Gates, and said: "Run Forrest, run."

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 10:09:11 AM EST
Anybody know what the song is that Forrest got ANDY from?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 03:19:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe it is this poem, sometimes used as a hymn (but I don't know what tune they use.)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 03:37:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's the lyrics to the hymn.  It was one of my gran's favorites.

I come to the Garden alone,
While the dew is still on the roses.
And the voice I hear, falling on my ear,
The son of God discloses.

And he walks with me and he talks with me,
And he tells me I am his own.
And the joy we share as we tarry there,
None other has ever known.

He speaks, and the sound of his voice
Is so sweet the birds hush their singing.
And the melody that he gives to me
Within my heart is ringing.

I'd stay in the garden with him
Though the night around me be falling,
But he bids me go with the voice of woe
His voice to me is calling.

If you google the song, you can find midi sites where you can hear the melody.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 03:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Izzy. I was thinking of another, more rousing Christian chorus, but I wasn't sure.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:36:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now that's hilarious. In a good-natured way. I love the character.

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government -- Edward Abbey
by serik berik (serik[dot]berik on Gmail) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 04:10:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

From the European Industrial Relations Observatory

Could we say that the UK's great economic performance in the past 10 years is linked to the very real increases in the minimum wage?

Paying labor more is a good thing?

(See also the ongoing discussion in the "Carnival" thread)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 10:20:48 AM EST
I was wondering...Why in the table above the numbers about Romania are given in EUR. It says it should be in national currency. As far as I know they still use the leu...Or am I wrong?
by Denny on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 11:33:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Could we say that the UK's great economic performance in the past 10 years is linked to the very real increases in the minimum wage?

Linked, probably, but it'd take a lot more to prove causality....

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 11:44:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The point was that the other side has no such scruples to link growth with, say, lower taxes. We should do the same loudly - if only to show that wage growth is not incompatible with economic performance

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 12:08:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 10:29:29 AM EST
Mr.Nobody dies and goes to heaven.
In the office of St.Peter there is a huge wall with numerous clocks, all indicating a different time.

St.Peter, he asks, what are all this clocks for ?.

Well, St.Peter answers, see this one : both pointers all still on the 12 and haven't moved ever. This is the clock of Mother Theresa , she never told a lie during her life. Every time somebody tells a lie, his clock is advanced one minute.

Mr. Nobody lets the story sink in and after a while he asks: St.Peter where is the clock of president Bush?

Without looking up from his paperwork, St.Peter says: that clock is on the ceiling in the kitchen, we use it as a fan.

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 01:16:45 PM EST
Muslim Groups to Bring Denmark Before Human-Rights Court Over Prophet Cartoons

A network of Danish Muslim organizations will bring Denmark before an international human-rights court for not pressing charges against the newspaper that first published the contentious Prophet Mohammed cartoons, Danish radio reported Friday . ..

The magazine quoted above,http://www.diversityinc.com/, needed a login to read the whole thing.

Reguardless, when racist bigots go to the european court of human rights to demand freedom of speech be officially dishonored and shiara be legally effective on non-muslims in non-muslim countries, then something is wrong.

by messy on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 01:20:39 PM EST
they are not going to the European court of HR, but to the UN (see in the Breakfast thread, it was also covered)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 01:59:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When people make this kind of intemperate and inexact comment on ET, something is wrong.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 04:36:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok since everyone's having a go at heaven jokes, here's a really really bad one. It used to make me laugh when I was a pot-smoking student, but then again anything would make me laugh back then ...

So here goes, you have been warned.

Bob Marley dies, djarastafarai. And wakes up on a beautiful sunny day, lying on a beautiful coral beach. He looks around, unsure where he is. There is a very nice breeze, the sand is of the purest white ... the place is just stunningly beautiful. He starts walking away from the beach, and figures that there is something odd about the bushes he's passing by. He stops and checks one out. Ohhh mon, djarastafarai! They're joint bushes! Big, conic, djarastafarai joints growing on bushes, all over the place! He grabs a whole bunch of them, starts jumping up and down going "djarastafarai! djarastafarai! djarastafarai!", really thrilled and with a big grin on his face. He sees this other guy walking by and calls out to him: "hey djarastafarai, this place is heavenly babylon mon, it's incredible! I've gotta try this stuff out, mon, hey do you have a light?". And the guy replies: "sorry man but they've been lying to you all this time ... there is no fire in hell".

by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 03:51:14 PM EST
I have a cold. blech. (see?  I don't even have the strength to muster up some exclamation points.)

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 04:33:14 PM EST
I gave you some, and here's some more !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 04:41:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's always so nice to have friends you can count on!  Thanks, afew!!! (see how handy they are?)

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 18th, 2006 at 04:46:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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