European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

It's the same fight

by Jerome a Paris
Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 06:26:57 PM EST

a message to our American readers. Adapted from a dKos diary

I've been spending a bit of effort this week-end trying to debunk all the errors and lies spewed by the mainstream media about the French demonstrations. I could only write about 2 or 3 articles, and yet there are hundreds out there telling the same story - and all of them have a much bigger audience than me.

But the most surprising thing was the number of reactions I got from supposed lefties, here and on dKos, telling me in substance "you won't avoid reform with 20% unemployment amongst the youth"; "France's economy is in really bad shape, some labor reform is needed, and these protests are really reactionary" ; "you can't go on having these expectations of cosy jobs for life" ; "why is the State meddling in private contracts"?

A troubling number of American liberals seem to have drunk the kool-aid.

That Kool-aid is the one you should know about, as it's coming out the Thatcher/Reagan revolution, and has been pushed furthest in your country:

unions are "corpocracies", or "special interests" out to get workers to be paid for doing nothing and they have too much power and need to be brought down to size;
"flexibility" of the labor market (which really means paying workers less, making them work more - and more inconvenient - hours and giving them fewer rights);
profits, and profit growth, and stock market value, is the only way to evaluate the success of an economy;
taxes are bad;
governments are incompetent and should stay our of business;

Now, many of you would disagree with most of the above points, and rightly blame them for the current economic mess in the US, with stagnating median wages, skyrocketing healthcare costs, rising poverty and extravagant levels of debt despite the apparent strong growth.

And yet, when talking about France, whose policies are to some extent the opposite of all this (unions with important formal roles in the economy, strong protections for workers against abuses by employers, a refusal to judge quality of life by money alone, a high level of taxes, and a major role for the State, which is still trusted to do a number of things for the community), the reaction is pretty often hostile and very much in line with the above talking points:

how do you tolerate these strikes all the time?
you need more flexibility to fight that horrible unemployment
you can't expect to be competitive by clinging to outdated practises - global forces (read uniform requirements for return on capital around the planet) must prevail;
how do you tolerate such high levels of taxes, and
how do you tolerate the "big daddy" State meddling in everything?

And the basic message is that the French model has failed, and the US/UK model just HAS to prevail, because that's the way history is going, inevitably.

Even though the statistics show that this is simply not true and that the French economy is not doing so badly, that's not the perception, not here, and not in France either.

The French are gloomy because they are now convinced that their country has failed, and will have to join the nasty "Anglo-Saxon model" or fall on the wayside. They are deeply unhappy with the idea, but they see no other way - the other way was tried, and failed.

Let me tell you was this sounds like: it sounds like Democrats being told that they are weak on national security.

That they really want to "listen to and understand terrorists" rather than fight their evil ways to death (replace terrorists by unions);
That they are wimps and they'd rather negotiate on and on and on rather than take decisive steps and use force if necessary, which will make diplomacy all the more effective next time because your words will have the credibility of your tough actions (you must have the freedom to fire people to be strong enough to hire them);
That they do not accept that, because terorrists are actually evil, civil rights must be curtailed for terrorists so that our rights to safety are protected (when there is strong unemployment, workers must shed the luxury of having any labor rights and should be happy to simply have work);
That, because there is a war, it is unpatriotic to criticise the executive and want to curtail its powers if you want it to be effective in its fight (it's a tough competitive market, and executive pay should not be curtailed in any way in order to keep the best talent.).

You've been fighting against all these bad faith arguments for a while now, and wondering why so many people do not get it that they were asinine, in bad faith, and worse - ineffective. Well, it's the same with the criticism of French unions and demonstrations and strikes (all called "riots" in the English language press) - they are in bad faith, and they are only used to reinforce the power of corporations over workers and keep workers down.

But in both cases, they work because they rely on little more than the relentless repetition, over and over and over again, of the same unsubstantiated, and sometimes outright false arguments. And that's what most people hear, and that's what they remember: "Democrats are wimps", "the French don't work enough".

So please, next time you read an article about the French "events", don't dismiss them as the fad of pampered coffee-drinking, Gauloise-smoking, out-of-touch privileged people. They are fighting the same fight as you are, and the stakes are just as high.

France, for better or for worse, rightly or wrongly, embodies the resistance to the Thatcher/Reagan model (now morphed into a corrupt and sanctimonious Cheney / Blair version), and you will only weaken your own fight if you dismiss the main international voice against the inevitability of "global forces" and the Tom Friedmanesque "international consensus" on international business (unlimited rights) and governance (to be curtailed) and if you believe all the drivel in the English language press about these demonstrations.

Please go read my deconstruction of three articles about the French protests, one in the Guardian(here), and one in TIME magazine (here), and one in the International Herald Tribune (here). You'll see the same dismissiveness, the same notion (often gleeful) that it's a lost fight against forces larger than France, and the same conviction that France is in a really, really bad shape.

Just like the Dems, France needs optimism - not just criticism of the relentless forces arrayed against them, but a message that our ideas and our values work, and need to be put to work again, for everybody's benefit.

It's our common fight, and that's why I'm writing to you guys so much as well.

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It's the same fight | 94 comments (94 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 2)

There is one figure which should help to understand that it is possible to fire employees in France: according to the the Public Employment Services(ANPE), every year, around one million people are fired in France, part of them (300 000 in 2004) for economic reasons, and part of them (600 000 in 2004) for personal reasons. Of course, the vast majority of them find a new job.

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 08:14:29 PM EST

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

You're going to have a long, uphill battle on this topic. For example, how does one "deconstruct" comments like these:

In many of the country's most deprived areas the rate is as high as 40-50 percent.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/mar2006/fran-m17.shtml

It will do nothing to reduce the 23 percent youth unemployment rate, or the average of 8 to 11 years it takes to get permanent employment.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/feb2006/fran-f06.shtml

When the "World Socialist Web Site"--which is presumably authentic--quotes these numbers, it's hard to believe that it's the MSM and the dopey American liberals who have drunk the cool-aid...

by asdf on Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 08:15:46 PM EST

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

If you are going to quote statistics about France, perhaps you should also look to similar stats about the U.S. Should we start with the murder rate? the rate of incarceration? Unemployment in South L.A.? Our defense budget? I don't even need to look at the stats about these things because everyone knows that they are abysmal. You are actually doing what you accuse the author of doing: quoting stats that make your argument.

To that end, here's a stat that shows 33% of people in Detroit live below the poverty line:http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/sep2005/detr-s02.shtml

Or here's one: 45.8 million without health insurance.
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/005647.html

It's from the U.S. government, so I'm not sure you can trust it.

by andrethegiant on Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 08:36:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

I'm not quoting stats, I'm pointing to articles by an official* Socialist organ that makes the same statements, or mis-statemens, that Jerome is complaining about. He's arguing that the American left has drunk the Kool-Aid on this topic, which may be true but it's not surprizing that they would have, if the official leftist parties have, too.

*Actually I don't know whether the quoted web site is official in any particular way, or reputable...

by asdf on Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 09:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

*Actually I don't know whether the quoted web site is official in any particular way, or reputable...

Thanks a million for the useful reference, asdf.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:23:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

Statistics are also constructions that often merit deconstructing. We've had a whole series of articles on ET on issues around unemployment and employment measures including a specific article on the fact that youth unemployment in France, when measured as a percentage of the total youth population, is really 8% and quite similar to that in the UK.

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 10:47:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

Sorry Alexandra, I had not read your comment when I posted mine above, about deconstructing.
Les grands esprits se rencontrent ... :)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:58:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

Merci pour le compliment! :-)

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you even reading what I write? (4.00 / 2)

It's all on the definitions

Unemployment rate = unemployed to active ratio

Unemployed to total population is a different number.

Consider 2 different countries

In one, out of 100 youth:

60 study
30 work
10 are unemployed

In the second, out of 100 youth:

30 study
60 work
10 are unemployed

It's not easy with that information to know what's "better". Study or work? For young people, either could be a good thing.

But in the first one, the unemployment rate is 25% (10 / 10+30), and in the second, it's 14% (10 / 10+60)

In both cases, 10% of the youth are unemployed.

Using the 25% rate of the first country to say that 25% of the youth in that country are unemployed is just sloppy or dishonest.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:11:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you even reading what I write? (none / 0)

This comparison of the unemployment rates is very confusing to me--the different definitions. I recall that we discussed this here on ET in some detail last October-ish, but I don't recall this difference in the way of handling students. And I'm a little confused as to why people don't adjust for this in comparison,,,,particularly when comparing youth unemployment. It seems to me that the US approach to this is logical--basically if you're looking for work and don't have a job, you are counted as unemployed. So students are not looking for work, therefore are not unemployed--not sure how summer and part-time jobs figure into this. But the method of counting full time students as unemployed seems very illogical to me.

But a further point of confusion for me: the latest OECD numbers, which claim to compare unemployment on a comprible basis, show the US at 4.7% and France at 9.2%. But Jerome, if you are saying the "adjusted, or correctly stated" youth unemployment in France is 8%, you are saying that youth unemployment is less than unemployment for the rest of the country. Just at an intuitive level, that doesn't seem right to me. Am I interpretting this correctly, and if so, does that conclusion sound accurate to you? If youth unemployment in France is only 8%,,why do we hear complaints from the youth in France. I know that 0--5% would be better, but youth change jobs a lot, and float between jobs, and just are less stable than the rest of the work force, in an employment sense. I'll try to look up the US number that is comprible, but I'll bet it's 8% or higher.

Maybe I can pull together some numbers to make this point better, but hopefully you, or others, can understand my confusion, and perhaps clear it up.

by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:58:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you even reading what I write? (none / 0)

A lower youth unemployment rate isn't entirely unlikely - it might simply reflect that they're more likely to take up low-paid jobs or it might reflect that the children of immigrants find it easier to take up employment than their parents or it might reflect that young people are less likely to get caught up in long-term unemployment after losing a job at an older age. All sorts of possibilities: it's not daft on the face of it.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 04:17:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you even reading what I write? (none / 0)

I don't think it is daft,,,it just is very unusual and conflicts with the data one would normally see for youth unemployment. For example, check out the chart Migura references below, by Alexandra. It shows the more normal pattern of twenties unemployment versus older age groups.

by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:31:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you even reading what I write? (none / 0)

But the method of counting full time students as unemployed seems very illogical to me.

Full-time students are counted as inactive (i.e., outside the labour market), not as unemployed. The unemployment rate is usually taken as a fraction of the active (having/seeking employment) population, not of the total population. The problem with youth labour statistics is that between, say, age 14 and age 30, a substantial fraction of the population is in education.

Check out the very nice chart put together by Alexandra here.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 04:37:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you even reading what I write? (none / 0)

thanks for that clarification, Migeru. Alexandra's chart makes a lot of sense. I think this one posted by Jerome confused me a little, coupled with a comment that Jerome made somewhere that said youth unemployment is only 8% in France (perhaps I don't remember that comment correctly).

It's one thing when you see all these numbers in one diary, and can reconcile the differences between them. But when they come out over the course of weeks or months, and one relies on memory, and can't reconcile,,,,it's just confusing.

I guess I'm still confused with my memory of Jerome's comment, which I think was youth unemployment in France is only 8%, about the same as the UK. (I'm not asking you to reconcile,,,,I should take the time and dig back through the data myself). but thanks for your reference.

by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:06:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you even reading what I write? (none / 1)

The above sounds as if you still don't get it. Jérôme's claim is that unemployed youth are only 8% in France, about the same as the UK, as a percentage of the whole age group.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:29:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you even reading what I write? (none / 0)

It's because Jerome's chart is the unemployment rate of active youth (again, students are excluded from the calculation).

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:33:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you even reading what I write? (none / 1)

wchurchill lets see if I can help clarify using the US numbers I posted below:

In 2005 in the USA the total civilian noninstitutional population ages 16-24 was 36,674,000. It's the total of all youth in the labor force 22,291,000 (Employed 19,770,000 + Unemployed and looking for work 2,521,000) + those Not in labor force 14,383,000 (most of whom are in school or, in the case of the older ones, doing unpaid work like caring for their children).

When you talk of employment and unemployment there are two ways of looking at the numbers:
1) As a percentage of all youth age 16-24
employed = (19,770,000 / 36,674,000)*100 = 53.9%
unemployment = (2,521,000 / 36,674,000)*100 = 6.9%
2) As a percentage of youth in the labor force (those that are employed and those unemployed and looking for work)
employed = (19,770,000 / 22,291,000)*100 = 88.7%
unemployment = (2,521,000 / 22,291,000)*100 = 11.3%

When you see the 88.7% employed number it makes it a little easier to understand that we're only talking about a portion of youth not all youth whereas the 11.3% unemployed can more easily be confused.

In labor economics the two numbers that are usually used to talk about unemployment are the labor force participation rate (the percentage of all youth who are in the labor force - in the example above (22,291,000 / 36,674,000)*100=60.8%) and the unemployment rate as a percentage of the labor force (11.3% in my example). The first number tells you how much or little the second number tell you about the population as a whole. If you don't have both of these numbers then I would argue it's best to look at unemployment as a percentage of total population.

These numbers come from the US Dept of Labor 2005 annual statistics

I hope this helps...

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 04:07:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you even reading what I write? (4.00 / 2)

My sense is that the youth labor market in France and in the US is structured a bit differently. Between paying for college and/or for a car, which you can have at age 16 in the US whereas in France you can only get your license at 18, and many other reasons I think US youth are more likely to work part time and go to school then French youth who are in school and it seems more French youth are in school and not working then US youth. There also just seem to be more full time employees in France in the types of waiters/waitress jobs you see students take in the US.

Jerome posted this previously. Left is the employment rate, right is the unemployed population, both as a fraction of the total number of 15-24s.

I just calculated the equivalent numbers for the US based on the US Dept of Labor 2005 annual statistics
US Youth 16-24 in 2005:
employed as % of total noninstitutional population 53.9%
unemployed as % of total population 6.9%
unemployed as percent of labor force (individuals looking for work or employed) 11.3%

Total civilian noninstitutional population 36,674,000
In labor force (looking for work of employed) 22,291,000
Not in labor force 14,383,000
Employed 19,770,000
Unemployed 2,521,000

Note: The population total does not include individuals who are institutionalized or in the military but I ran the numbers with an estimate for the total population in 2005 and even though it seems there were about 4,066,000 individuals in institutions or military in 2005 the percentage remain pretty much the same. For more data from US DOL a good resource is here.

There is also a 2005 report on youth summer employment that gives a feel for the particularities of the youth labor market.

The youth labor force--16- to 24-year-olds working or actively looking for work--grows sharply between April and July each year. During these months, large numbers of high school and college students take or search for summer jobs, and many graduates enter the labor market to look for or to begin permanent employment. This summer, the youth labor force grew by 3.0 million to a total of 24.4 million in July.

The July labor force participation rate for youth (the proportion of their population working or looking for work) was 66.6 percent in 2005.

There were 21.7 million 16- to 24-year-olds employed in July 2005, an increase of 302,000 from July 2004. The employment-population ratio for youth--the proportion of the 16- to 24-year-old civilian noninstitutional population that was employed--was 59.3 percent in July 2005.

In July 2005, 2.7 million youth were unemployed; this was a decrease of 330,000 from a year earlier. The youth unemployment rate, 11.0 percent, was down from 12.3 percent in July 2004.

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you even reading what I write? (none / 1)

Jerome posted this previously. Left is the employment rate, right is the unemployed population, both as a fraction of the total number of 15-24s.

Thank you Alexandra. Very helpful to me, and also the compribles for the US.

by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 04:00:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you even reading what I write? (none / 0)

Glad it helped!

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 09:27:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you even reading what I write? (none / 0)

That's why I sopke of deconstructing figures when Jerome posted that diary. A percentage is a ratio of two numbers, so it is worth checking out the basis on which the underlying figures were set.
I too, was a bit confused by the figures in Jerome's diary and interestingly, that's how memory works, recollect only the figure I was confused about, the 8%. Jerome provided very helpful clarifications on that, in the same diary.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:57:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 3)

I wish you luck with your attempt to convince the Kos crowd that they share anything in common with their European counterparts.

From my perspective, on the American side of the pond, I see young Democrats and Kos readers, in general, as anti-union, anti-consumer, and pro-business. That they would identify with the students in France would be a non-starter.

Nonetheless, I applaud your efforts and wish you luck.

by numediaman on Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 09:47:03 PM EST

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 2)

I'm not surprised that Jerome is meeting resistance over there. I appreciate the information in this thread. It's invaluable.

I will say however that since there are so many variables at work in each and every country, that it's hard to make comparisons between, say, union culture in one country as compared to another.

Kos readers are not exactly your actual representatives of the American Left. They are very involved in the Democratic Party, to a degree far beyond that of most people on the Left. If the Left in America comprises say, 10% of the population (about the same as the far right), then the vast majority of America is in the middle. Kossacks comprise a small subsection of that middle: they can be described as political junkies, but they can't be made to offer a serious critique of the Democratic party. Mention Mother Jones or Counterpunch or Pacifica Radio or Amy Goodman to them, and they turn away toward Air America. They resent true leftists because of Ralph Nader and the Green Party. Air America is the perfect forum for them because it is a partisan radio station, whereas Pacifica's Democracy Now is more apt to air a report such as the one Jerome is offering here.

As for being anti-union, anti-consumer or pro-business, I don't think that's a fair assessment. There is a lot of writing on corporate greed. Kossacks are very concerned with the pro-business congress.

But you're also talking about a country that works very differently than European countries. We don't have a social welfare system like you all do. We pay higher taxes than Europeans do (I read a recent report which shows this to be true) but we receive so very little for it. We have vastly different economic systems. Our unions were once tied to our industries which have declined rapidly. Our unions today (I'm actually a union member) are mainly populated by public employees, and in a country with so few social resources, such unions seem anachronistic even to me precisely because people who do NOT have access to health care and proper schools are footing the bill for unions through taxes. In short, sometimes the unions are causing inequities in the US precisely because the country is so screwed up to begin with, socially. Strengthening union membership would actually retard what America needs to do. America needs to strengthen its social programs and educational system. Too often, the unions get in the way.

by Upstate NY on Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 10:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

<gasp,,,struggling to regain balance,,,hoping to find heart lung machine>

We pay higher taxes than Europeans do (I read a recent report which shows this to be true) but we receive so very little for it.

Surely you jest,,,,that is so, sooooooo, not true. Please do a diary on the data that you are referencing. (btw, make sure your data includes all taxes, like the EU value added taxes, as well as the US state taxes).

by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:15:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 1)

I'm comparing the US to Italy.

I got hit last year with the AMT because of a peculiar real estate circumstance. That was 28% in my bracket (without AMT I would have been at 25%). Add in SS and Medicare and that puts me at 40%. Tag on 7% in state tax, and I'm up to 47% (it was worse when I lived in Yonkers, NY, where you have an extra income tax, then that was 49%). My local property taxes are 15% of my salary. Yup. I have a house that is less than the national median for homes (sub 250k) and I pay over 10k in local property tax on it. In addition, my locality charges 1.5k in service a year. In total, I pay 64% in taxes a year. That's more than my friends in Italy pay total.

I realize that the Scandanavians are in the 70% range, but America is not the home of low taxes unless you're rich and live in Mississippi. Then and only then may you get away with cheaper taxes.

As for VAT and Sales Tax, can we really measure those?

by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:49:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

This is a very wierd situation you're in. A high tax state, a special case, apparently a local government that is completely out of control.

by asdf on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 09:15:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

Welcome to New York.

by Upstate NY on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:32:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

My local property taxes are 15% of my salary. Yup.

Hey, I feel for you on this one. That is really incredible. I live in Kalifornia, which I've thought is crazy, but at least we got the property tax side of things right, IMO.

As for VAT and Sales Tax, can we really measure those?

Occassionally you say those pie charts that show how a countries GDP is broken down by who spends the money (government versus private) and, often, then shown by the source of the government's money. I did a quick search last night and couldn't find one,,,but one we'll pop up in the next year or so, and I'll try to remember to post a diary on it. But this captures the VAT and different state income taxes--I think you are right it would be difficult otherwise, though one could make some analytical estimates.

by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:47:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

California swung like a pendulum from one extreme on the property tax scale to the other. The effects of prop 13 are starving the state and local governments.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:56:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

I guess my perspective on that would be different, and more in line with the California homeowners, who want crazy when Warren Buffet as advisor to Arnie, suggested changing that property tax. IMO, and theirs, it is simply outrageous for people to work all their lives in CA, retire, only to have their housing prices grow insanely,,,,,and then be unable to retire in the home they have lived in for, say 25 years.

Now, I would agree with you if that was the states only source of tax revenue, but it's not. State sales tax is among the highest in the country, at about 9.5%,,,,sales tax is also high, in the 8--9% range depending....And the property tax does go up for the change in CPI.

starving the state and local governments.

Give me a break. Why can't we expect our politicians to manage within reasonable budgets?? these politicians here are totally loopy, and incompetent regarding managing spending.

by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:20:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 1)

Remember when Gray Davis proposed to roll back the car tax rebate () because of the state's budget woes? Arnie run on a platform consisting essentially of "I'll repeal the car tax" and within weeks of being elected he declareda budget emergency. I call that a responsible fiscal policy. Not.

() The legislature had voted to waive the car tax as long as the state budget could afford it, but then people got used to it and the Republicans sold "rolling back the waiver" as "instituting a new tax".

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:26:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

Yikes, sorry about the bolding. It's unintentional.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

I do agree with how you characterize that car tax situation.

by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:43:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

Income taxes are indeed lower in a number of countries, but social payments are of course higher (which should then probably be compared to private insurance payments for health care and contributions to pensions), leading to the usual ranking of "net public charges" on income being higher in Europe overall.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 09:52:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

yes but there is a difference between who makes the decision and spends the money, isn't there? If you believe that the state knows best as to how to plan you individual retirement, and your healthcare, then the more socialized system is for you. the economic and social outcomes, IMO, are different--and not all positive for one side versus the other, just different.

by wchurchill on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:25:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Left n Right both have issues with fringe crazies (none / 0)

i wouddn't spend a lot of agnst of the QRSWave types and his little coterie.

But the trouble is the left has an element that are easily led into mindless reaction instead of realistic analysis.

by HiD on Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 09:50:15 PM EST

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 2)

You can find the whole series of related CPE articles in the ET wiki

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 10:48:45 PM EST

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 2)

BTW Jerome - this diary was needed!! Thanks!

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Sun Mar 19th, 2006 at 10:50:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 3)

I have two not necessarily very helpful thoughts here, which are really long-held observations germane to the topic of the diary.

First, even (especially?) among the most educated Americans and among them even (especially?) among those who follow current events in France closely, everyone's head seems to explode when it comes to discussing French politics, especially extra-parliamentary politics. So no surprise that the student movement is getting misleading coverage.

Second and maybe more to the point, I think the relevant difference in this instance between the US and France is not union culture as suggested above but student culture. American students are (and I'm speaking of the modal American student, not those who would be reading a site like this) incredibly uninformed about politics and yet at the same time passionate about popular culture. The point I'm making here is that American students have very little culture or structure, especially on campus, for political activism.

So even if (and I am convinced by Jerome's statistics) the students are objectively "wrong" and in fact, the CPE is a necessary (or at least logical) way to spur hiring, the reaction of the students against the Villepin government is something that could have no analog in the US. This year's federal budget cut, IIRC, 13 billion from funding for student loans, which will contribute greatly to the alarming levels of student debt, but I am not aware of a single organized protest or political mobilization by American students against this.

So if it is the "same fight," the hard work will not be convincing the FT to do a better time but finding ways for American college students to get in the game.

by desmoulins (gsb6@lycos.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:27:45 AM EST

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 3)

Most U.S. liberals would be right of center in Europe. Many U.S. persons are secretly a bit jealous of Europe. They come here and see that life is better than at home but they don't understand how that could possibly be. Broadly, the cities are more orderly, the infrastructure is in better shape, public transportation functions, the people are generally more aware of the wider world, other languages, politics, ideas. Can you imagine, there aren't so many guns in the hands of civilians and yet relatively little crime. And blow me down, they don't even have capital punishment. As a whole, the U.S. can't get its head around the idea that democracy and market economy can come in many different shapes and sizes. Yes, I have also heard about European prejudice, racism, drug problem and everything else which, in the U.S., is just as bad or maybe worse. I'm not so sure how the U.K. fits in.

by Quentin on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 03:28:36 AM EST

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

Uh, head spinning...

by asdf on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 09:21:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 1)

I can understand why you are angry Jerome. I have seen the same kind of opinion's expressed regarding British social policy - The Washington Consensus is just that: A consensus.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying

by RogueTrooper on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 04:40:03 AM EST

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

If you will accept a little constructive criticism of diary mechanics Jerome:

It is my feeling that you made a mistake in the construction of your dKos diary.

Over here you can reasonably expect that regular commenters are likely to have read your deconstruction diaries and others are willing to be directed to them.

This approach does not really work on dKos (and indeed, in my observation, a lot of other places on the net.

As a result, many of the commenters have not read the linked articles and the debate remains focussed around the 20% youth unemployment figure. If I may put it crudely, kossacks don't RTFA and expecting them to do so has damaged your chances of making your point.

Instead of opening their minds to the sleight of hand used around the CPE issue, mentioning the 20% figure without explicitly demolishing it lets them fizz around the comment space, proudly displaying their "centrist," "mainstream," "skepticist" credentials with comments along the lines of:

"You're living in socialist cuckoo land if you think 20% youth unemployment is not a serious problem." etc. etc.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 04:51:27 AM EST

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 3)

I've just spent a harrowing hour over there. You may be right about the diary. But, to judge by a whole heap of comments, no careful framing would have stopped the deluge.

Far too many Americans left of "center" (wherever that may be) are simply incapable of imagining that any other set of ideas of any interest or value might exist beyond the ones they've been formatted by in an isolated, self-referring -- yet world-powerful -- culture.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 07:49:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 2)

Upstate NY observes upthread that US Americans left of the EU centre are a minority and, being mostly outside the Democratic party, not really represented at DKos.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 08:04:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 3)

DKos comments express knee-jerk populism in an extreme form. While the stated purpose of the blog is to support the Democratic party, the Democratic party itself is centrist or even conservative. And the liberal wing of the Democratic party is only marginally represented on DKos. Mostly what you see there is ranting by people who have no clue...

by asdf on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 09:25:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 1)

Longtime readers of Dkos know you are right -- that its become a Democratic Underground run on very good software.

by desmoulins (gsb6@lycos.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks, Jerome (none / 1)

Yours is the only voice I've found that's telling the real story of what's at stake in the French demonstrations.

Bravo!

Pogo: We have met the enemy, and he is us.

by d52boy on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 06:38:39 AM EST

Hey guys (none / 0)

This is dangerous nonsense, even on a liberal progressive site. Immediately after a weekend when ordinary, peaceful Americans went out onto the streets in far greater numbers than anywhere else in the world, you are being lectured to about how to protest, what these protests should be concerned with and given a false model of what these protests should be achieving.
Welshman's diary :: ::
I have brought vicious attack upon myself for challenging the powerful force of a devoted clique of bloggers from other sites who resent any opposite opinion to their own. I will take that risk again for the sake of honest expression of contrary view on Daily Kos and because what is being represented comes from Europe. Not France's Europe, but our Europe - the Europe of all of us on this side of the Atlantic.

Tell me who's part of the enforcement squad, so that I can join... I sadly missed the "vicious attacks" on our friendly co-European...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 09:55:51 AM EST

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

The diary is quite good, but whatever.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:01:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

(link)

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:02:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Really?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:51:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

I did not say that I agree with all that Welshman says, after all it's an opinion piece, only that it's a good diary.

I thought you'd like things like

I believe [France] has real opportunity for long-term growth through its possession of one of the the best balanced and structured economies in Europe.

The bit that you quote and bold has little to do with the actual thrust of the diary, anyway.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:55:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Leaving aside the excess of the beginning of Welshman's diary, his reading of current French events is that, though he loves France for its elan and flair (he might have said panache), France is refusing to face up to challenges that other countries have to face up to (he gives the example of pensions and social security reform). And:

The protests in France are once again about protectionism for a particular section of society.

This is little different from the story as it is told in the international media.

What's so good about it?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Take this, for instance:

Since immediately before the invasion of Iraq, France has been vilified by the right. Any claimed adverse aspect of its behaviour, any adverse indicators regarding its economic performance is seized upon with delight.
The left has been guilty of some of the same myopia. I watched with some sense of despondency about the balance and accuracy in the blogosphere as one week some adverse economic figures were published in the Autumn about France that were trumpeted all over Free Republic, with silence here. The following week, positive forecasts were published about French GNP that showed considerable expected improvement. Silence on the right; "Allez France" on here.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:57:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Yes, I did note that. But I find it's a bit of a figleaf for, by and large, backing up a false version of the anti-CPE conflict, the one that is served up by the media.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:10:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Hey afew, I have not been in France these days so pray tell, what is the true version of the anti-CPE conflict ?

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:30:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Snarques-tu, or is that a serious question?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:44:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Je ne snarque pas ; c'est une question sérieuse. Tout ce que j'ai vu à la BBC, ce sont des scènes, assez impressionantes il faut le dire, de manifestants dispersés au lance-eau.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

En Espagne la police n'utilice pas des lance-eaux. Ça doit être parce-qu'on les associe avec la dictature de Franco. Ce sont les pays européens avec plus longues traditions démocratiques où les manifestations sont le plus violentes, et la police reagit aver plus de force.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:22:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Ireland doesn't own any, so when we had the EU presidency the government borrowed them from the PSNI. The Irish police were borrowing ex-RUC water cannons to police protests in Dublin. It aroused some bemused comment, to say the least.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (4.00 / 3)

Brussels police uses political correct Hippie - coloured water canons which have a de-escalating effect on angry protestors. They are painted white ( colour of peace) and sport a multiculti rainbow design (of hope). They blend perfectly in with the peace flags of the crowds. Here is some action in front of the US bunker embassy in Brussels.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 08:11:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Ritter, if you'd do a few diaries on your protesting past, it would be greatly appreciated!

BTW, did you have any connection with the Dutch kraaker (squatter) movement in 1980? Been on site during any of the house stormings, or know someone who was? (I was at one of these, the 19 August 1980 storming of the Prins Henderikkade ("PH-kade") building, by accident, as a child of tourists.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:48:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 1)

C'est comme en la Hongrie.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:30:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

I have horrible spelling mistakes... (sob)

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Well, the people I spoke with when getting back to the office seemed to say that all that was a "mise en scène" by the media and that only "une poignée de manifestants" staged protests.
I was surprised indeed as the pictures on the BBC showed pretty serious strife ; I wondered whether that was part of the false coverage by the media afew was referring to.

I confess I missed the deconstructing diaries recently, was already though to keep some coherence in my mind :)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:31:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 1)

I think your office colleagues were right. The media, as I and others have said several times now, have made a big play of all this. In fact there were very big peaceful demonstrations, and very small groups who went in for the fighting. The government may have tried, a week ago, to play this card too -- look at the dreadful students busting up the Sorbonne (Gilles de Robien, Minister of Education, looking very père sévère: "This is what happens when we allow...") -- but it hasn't worked with the French who support the student movement 63%. So now the gov't has cooled it. Not so the media.

Politically, where it's at now is hard to judge. The unions have moved in with the students. They have given the gov't an ultimatum, withdraw the CPE project before I don't recall which day, Thursday maybe. Villepin says he won't budge. I have no idea which way it will go. Except that, in the past, attempts at "reform" by the authoritarian high road have always failed in France.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Why is the french government so out of touch? And I don't mean just on the CPE, also on DADVSI, and more.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 1)

Well, they are in touch with their own circle... The kind of people who go to the Davos conference. DADVSI is just what governments all over are lobbied to do, just like the CPE.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:40:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

While Metatone is right, I think it's a good question and one I don't have an immediate answer for. What's more, it seems to be a chronic problem in France. Worth thinking about.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

I mean, it's only 4 years ago that the UMP literally swept the parliamentary elections.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Um, I'm not sure what you mean by that comment?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:46:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 1)

The same story as in Genova 2001. Or many subsequent events.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:40:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Yes.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 01:41:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

That's exactly what I need : someone writing perfect English explaining to me how things really work in France. All of a sudden I get more attentive. Would you be available for classes to yours truly, afew ? :)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 02:51:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Why, Agnes, I'm a very experienced teacher one on one. Of English as a Foreign Tongue, of course. :-)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 01:51:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Well, I might take advantage, my English is a bit rusty as you certainly noticed.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:16:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

That's nothing a little polishing can't fix.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 04:46:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

So what would be your on-line advice for emergency fix-up ?

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 06:03:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Well, I wouldn't advise you to treat it as an emergency. These things take time. Don't they?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 09:50:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Well, you seem to be pretty good at codes so yes, these things may require the desirable time to be taken.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 02:34:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey guys (none / 0)

Watch some Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 10:25:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (none / 1)

Part of this is just cultural differences. Think of it as the flip side of what a liberal American gets when talking about how France should deal with issues of race - there suddenly the left wing French person sounds like a right wing American ;)

Here the idea that private companies should be able to fire at will is taken as a given. It's just not controversial. Lefties want higher government benefits, progressive taxation, and stronger unions - all of those are part of the left wing political culture here, but protection against being fired just isn't, except for public sector jobs, and that has to do with preventing the creation of political patronage systems.

And if I might hazard a criticism of my own. Unions are being presented here as representing the general good. I don't think they do, nor should they. Their job is to represent the interests of their members. I find the idea that they somehow represent the interests of society as just as crazy as the neoliberal delusion that management does. The reason that I want stronger unions is because I believe that that is the only way for employee bargaining power to be balanced with that of management. But that's it.

I do think that coverage of France in the US sucks, which is why I've avoided wading into this debate until now - why nitpick when you mostly agree, plus my knowledge of economics is pathetic ;)

by MarekNYC on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 10:39:24 AM EST

Re: It's the same fight (none / 0)

The unions generally raise the standards for everyone, which is why people tend to think they're net good for most people. I don't think it works that was in the US ... partially because the unions' concerns aren't codified in law but are reflected in local contracts that may only apply to union members(?).

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:03:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 3)

In Europe unions are likely to take progressive political positions outside their main area of concern, which is collective bargaining in their sector. In the US unions are purely out to defend the interests of their members, progressive politics be damned. One example that struck me was that some union or professional association of American prison guards was vocally in favour of tough-on-crime policies leading to more incarcerations and hence more jobs for them. This goes beyond collective bargaining into influencing social policy in decidedy non-progressive ways (especially given how the criminal justice system is stacked against minorities and the poor), and is something I could not imagine a European union doing.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:11:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 2)

Here the idea that private companies should be able to fire at will is taken as a given.

I think we realize that, Marek. But what is astonishing is how deep this cultural difference runs, how impossible it seems for Americans who hold it (not all do, of course) to even conceive that another way of seeing this might exist on the face of the earth. In other words, it seems to me that it's one of the constitutive myths of America -- freedom, rugged individualism, mobility, the businessman-as-hero -- all these are dovetailed in there. Other countries don't do things the American way? That's absurd, they're crazy, etc.

Otherwise, I think you're right about unions. But precisely, balancing employees' bargaining power with management is a pretty important contribution, imho, to the well-being of society at large.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:06:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same analysis (4.00 / 2)

I come around once the thread is over, but just wanted to say that this is a great diary.
True, I was bound to say so as I've been issuing warnings for some time now that we should not let the French government come up with a counterfeit and even more dangerous version of a reaganite (or thatcherite) model.
If I remember correctly, this statement what criticised by yourself Jérôme, when I posted my latest diary on the topic.
I admit I was overdoing it, but it is what it costs to attract people's attention, especially when you write form Paris ;)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 11:39:19 AM EST

Hah (none / 1)

I wrote then that I found you excessive ("ridiculous", even) in your assertion that the CPE went way behind what Reagan and Thatcher did, but the more I look at it, the more it appears that you were closer to the truth than I was, at least on this specific subject of hte CPE. (I still think that it's exagerated to say that the Villepin policies are beyond those of Reagan and Thatcher in general).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah (none / 1)

It was, like is 1984 . The purpose was to strike attention and stir indignation or/protest.
Actually, I somehow achieved my goal if my assertion may have driven you to perform your own investigation. That is maïeutique. Sorry don't know the English for it.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 12:20:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's the same fight (4.00 / 2)

Jerome, maybe O/T, but I recommend Paul Krugman's introduction to Keynes' General Theory. Most American pundits attempt to deny even Keynes, then how could they accept anything less than Freedman? Put in that landscape, I find it understandable American liberals fail to see anything in the Paris protest. (Trained in the States for a while, I myself find it difficult to understand the protest, but I smell there is something and wonder how it could be worked out better.)

BTW I am always (since the 80s) amazed at Krugman's theoretical excellence and insightfulness.

I will become a patissier, God willing.

by tuasfait on Mon Mar 20th, 2006 at 09:58:50 PM EST

Ooo . . . you tricked me into the Orange Place (none / 1)

Got to go shower now.

Really, Stirling Newberry is right. The level of thought at D.kos has dropped to almost nothing--it's all cheerleading. A Dem version of Free Republic.

Your piece was a very nice provocation. Let the slaves of North America envy (and rage about) life in a civilized country! There is a word for this: Ressentiment.

They won't thank you for the idea that a better way is possible. They want to believe that their way is the only way.

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Tue Mar 21st, 2006 at 11:47:53 PM EST

Re: Ooo . . . you tricked me into the Orange Place (none / 0)

Where does Stirling hang his hat in the blogosphere these days?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 05:23:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Stirling (none / 0)

Stirling has his own blog (which he shares with other main-pagers) The Blogging of the President 2004.

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Thu Apr 6th, 2006 at 07:36:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ooo . . . you tricked me into the Orange Place (none / 0)

I think a major part of what's happening at dKos right now is that the Kossacks are beginning to centralize and narrow their focus in preparation for the election. It was similar in 2004. So, naturally, their collective IQ will appear to plunge. They'll be focused on winning the mid-terms for the rest of the year.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (myfriends@thisispancakes.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 01:43:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's the same fight | 94 comments (94 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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