US Congress helping Berlusconi's election campaign

by Donna in Rome
Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 11:45:53 AM EST

From the diaries. Title changed from Senators Clinton and Kennedy (et al.), you've been had!
(Cross-posted at Daily Kos and Booman Tribune)

Yes, Senators Clinton and Kennedy, with all due respect, you’ve been had... by Italy’s Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.

Whether you realize it or not, you are now being used as election propaganda by the center-right coalition in Italy, and by all the media over here who believe – perhaps in good faith (considering the input they’ve received, what should they believe?) – that you all repeatedly, wholeheartedly, enthusiastically, intentionally, conscientiously, independently, freely and spontaneously applauded Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi during his address to Congress on Wednesday, and therefore that you sincerely approve of everything he said and – it would appear to logically follow – what he stands for.


And yet we have now come to know, thanks to Congressman Jim McDermott’s Daily Kos diary Friday, that the repeated (15 – count’em – 15!) rounds of seemingly spontaneous applause and standing ovations (3 – not just 1, but 3!) were probably prompted, that numerous seats in the Chamber were occupied by planted fill-ins (interns), and that none of you even knew what Berlusconi was saying except, perhaps, when he spoke in English.

Plus, very shrewdly on his part, when he spoke in English, it was to tell the heart-tugging, patriotic story of his father taking him to an American war cemetery as a boy and making him promise never to betray the Americans who had saved Italy. (Please excuse me as I dab my eyes.)  For those who may not know it, Congressman McDermott then followed up his diary statements with a letter of inquiry to Speaker of the House Hastert. I would say that means something.

You, in particular, Senator Clinton, have been shown repeatedly on Italian television, nodding approvingly, your eyes seemingly moist with emotion, and you have been quoted as saying something to the effect that you were very “moved” by Berlusconi’s address. (You can see a short video clip here: Click in the right-hand column on "Calda accoglienza per Berlusconi a Congresso Usa" – “Warm reception for Berlusconi at the U.S. Congress”.)

One newspaper, for example, “Il Tempo”, published this article, focusing solely on Senator Clinton (sorry if the quote isn’t exact, but I’ve had to translate it back into English from the Italian):

”I was very moved by the memory of our dead in Italy”

WASHINGTON – “It was an excellent speech, which really expressed the deep ties between Italy and the United States,” declared Senator Hillary Clinton, commenting the Prime Minister’s address. The former First Lady wanted to be present at a meeting of the Italian-American parliamentary delegation with Berlusconi, at the end of his visit to the Congress, and was warmly greeted by the Italian Premier. “The end, especially, touched me,” she said, “when Berlusconi paid homage to the young Americans who died in Italy, because I felt involved through my family: my husband’s father was wounded in Italy.”

Another, “Il Giornale”, published another article with an eloquent title: “Applause for Berlusconi, America is with him”. In addition to mentioning the same quote as above, it also says:

Because Congress gives him three standing ovations and interrupts him 15 times with thunderous applause. And because yes, the audience has a majority of Republicans and a few Democrats are absent, but it is substantially bipartisan. To the point that even Hillary Clinton is one of the small group of Senators (including Bill Frist, the majority leader in the Senate) who, as protocol dictates in the case of illustrious guests, accompany Berlusconi into the hallway that leads to the entrance to the floor of the House. It will be precisely the former First Lady who first wishes him a warm “Good luck” and then applauds him a number of times, to the point that – during two passages – she accompanies the Prime Minister’s words with eloquent assenting nods of her head.

What to say?

To give you the benefit of the doubt, over here we all know what a charmer he can be when he really turns it on. Maybe you didn’t. But after all, among his past trades, he’s been an actor and a singer, and has spent decades in the entertainment business; he knows how important image is (have you noticed that, unlike the rest of us, he’s getting younger as the years go by?), and knows how to give a rousing speech. And were you aware that there is an election campaign in progress in Italy (elections are just 5 weeks away), and that Berlusconi is quite possibly fighting for his political life (and to guarantee a continuation of his prosecution immunity)?

So I can only think that you fell for it. You fell into his trap. And, whether you know it or not, you are now being used to validate Berlusconi’s and the center-right’s prestige and legitimacy on the international, and therefore and automatically the Italian, political stage. By the way, the two newspapers above, the ones that focus on you, Senator Clinton, are rightwing papers. You are being used as election propaganda for President Bush’s rightwing buddy and ally and, as a result, the hawkish center-right coalition. Did you know that Berlusconi and his government sent Italy into the Iraq war (even if allegedly only for “peacekeeping” purposes) as Bush’s ally against the will of the majority of the Italian people? Did you ever hear about the “peace banners from every balcony” campaign, or see the huge protests that took place in Italy? There are still a few banners still hanging, as a matter of fact.

Do you realize that if the center-right wins again in Italy, it could be a boost for voter confidence in the Republicans in the U.S.? The Italian and American conservative pals will just continue ping-ponging their mutual support back and forth, bolstering each other as needed, all the while denying with a straight face that they meddle in other countries’ politics (as Bush did after his meeting with Berlusconi on Tuesday).

May I respectfully say that I’m extremely pissed off and very, very worried?

Unfortunately it seems the harm may have already been done – the cows have left the barn, and it might not be possible to get them back in again. Just to give you an idea of what effect the whole story has had over here, I am including my translation of an article by Gaetano Quagliariello that appeared in Rome’s newspaper, “Il Messaggero” on Friday, two days after the address before Congress.

HOW MUCH A SPEECH WEIGHS ON THE ELECTIONS

Giovanni Sabbatucci was right when, in the columns of this newspaper, he maintained that foreign policy does not, in itself, change votes. However, I believe that Berlusconi’s performance before the American Congress may affect the rest of the election campaign, for at least two reasons, which are only indirectly connected with foreign policy problems.

The first reason has to do with the importance of the event and the quality of the address. Since yesterday, it has become more evident that the action of the center-right government has had its dignity, which has been acknowledged at the international level. (...) It may be stated that the strategy of that part of the opposition that tends to depict this last legislature as a nightmare from which we must free ourselves, has suffered a hard blow. After Washington, it is more difficult to paint the Berlusconi government as a tainted parenthesis that must be closed as soon as possible. If the center-right manages to ride the wave created by the American success, Prodi will have to modify his strategy (...) thus running the risk of exposing the cracks that exist between the moderate and the more radical parts of his alliance.

At this point, it is easier to understand the second indirect result that Berlusconi’s speech could produce. The Prime Minister tied the policy of his center-right government in with a plausible scenario of the evolution of world balances. (...) In this analysis he used very moderate tones. (...)  His address thus focused on the most solid aspects of neoconservative analyses, discarding the excesses and most controversial angles. For this reason, he managed to draw the earnest applause of women and men like Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy, who certainly cannot be suspected of having an electoral fondness for the Italian Prime Minister.

This success creates embarrassment in the ranks of the center-left. Not only because it makes it even more difficult to limit Berlusconi’s Americanism to his privileged relationship with Bush. Even more so because it will be arduous for the opposition to contrast, as it has up to now, the Prime Minister’s America with another America that is more moderate and less extremist than Bush’s. Now, in fact, it is clear that with regard to the fundamental problems of international balance, even that America agrees with Berlusconi’s way of thinking.

(...)

We must limit ourselves to stating that, for the reasons given here, Berlusconi scored a bull’s eye in Washington, also in the election perspective. Otherwise, for the sake of seriousness, it is better to wait until after April 10th to discuss the matter.

(Emphasis mine)

As far as I’m concerned, April 10th will be too late.

Is it too much to ask for an explanation or justification for the exceptionally warm reception, rounds of applause, standing ovations, and starry eyes? Or perhaps, on the contrary, for a stance-taking statement by other Congresspersons and Senators who feel they were duped into playing the unwitting chorus in an election campaign commercial for Silvio Berlusconi? Don’t you feel used? If so, where’s your outrage?

Who else, among our distinguished elected readers and diary writers, was present? Could someone else please speak up and tell us how, in their opinion, it really went?

Grazie.

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The story that Luigi Berlusconi hauled his kid to a allied cemetery is highly unlikely. As Mastella pointed out, the cemeteries are all in the South, Anzio on down. When did it happen? During reconstruction? How long after the war?

So let's hear it for Silvio's icon, his daddy, who threw the foundations for the Berlusconi empire. Luigi spent much of the Salò days in Como and Lugano as a bank clerk for the Rasini family bank. He stayed in Switzerland a good two months after the liberation of Italy. All of this while his brother effectively fought for the allies on the Adriatic.

It doesn't sound like Luigi was all that interested in an allied victory.

It remains a mystery what exactly a small bank clerk was doing in Lugano during the Salò period, apparently not fleeing from the Republicans despite his age, mid-thirties.

There are several reasons for staying in Lugano which do not necessarily apply in Luigi's case. One was smuggling. There was a massive influx of money towards Switzerland from fascist hierarchs, either for personal gain, or for creating a fund for a future democratic fascist party. There was also an attempt to latch on to Dulles through what is known as "Operation Sunrise." Basically it involved letting off fascist hierarchs if they didn't fully cooperate with their Nazi allies. Small sabotage, useful information. And of course the fascists could stash all they could in Switzerland. Which they did.

Luigi went on to become the head of the Rasini bank which financed his son's business adventures through holdings and banks in Lugano, some of which strangely enough had some right wankers (Ercole Doninelli, Gianfranco Cotti and Genevieve Aubry) on their board of directors.

When Michele Sindona was asked how the mafia laundered money he replied that there were two banks in Italy that did it: the Bank of Sicily and a small little bank with one counter in Milan known as a "boutique de credit," the Rasini bank. Sindona was not the only person to indicate the Rasini bank as a mafia money-laundering outfit.

Attempts by judiciary authorities to unravel the mysteries of the Rasini bank and the enumerable over-night holdings set up by Silvio and his father have been of no avail. The statute of limitations has eliminated any necessity for a judiciary investigation. However recent cases, such as the Dell'Utri appeal or the up-coming Calvi murder trial, could benefit from consulting the Rasini archives.

Unfortunately, the Rasini bank was taken over by the Banca Popolare di Lodi which is now under fire after the Fiorani scandal. Fiorani is presently in prison and receives a daily feed of virulent support from Silvio. Sort of like Bush defending Ken Lay every other day and attacking the usual clockwork commie judges.

Under Fiorani the bank of Lodi did not cooperated with investigators despite numerous requests concerning the Rasini archives. For a while they asserted that the archives had been lost. Then they found a few pieces. Too bad some of the microfilms had suffered from spontaneous auto-combustion. In the meantime, the Bank of Lodi became the second largest bank in Sicily, the number one bank of the Lega Nord, and a favourite hangout for the Opus Dei.

So maybe in the end, Luigi was very pro-American even if he didn't drag his brat to a cemetery. Of course, his idea of America may not coincide with ours which excludes crony capitalism, organized crime and the extreme right wing that now has receptive ears in Washington.

Of course, Silvio is the only Council president who has steadfastly refused to celebrate the national liberation holiday, has fought to put the fascist militia on the same footing as the partisans, and allied himself with extremist right wing elements who deny the holocaust.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sun Mar 5th, 2006 at 05:13:29 PM EST
You've described the family background very well.

I just now realized that there were two other things I had originally wanted to include in the diary. One was the fact (which you mention) that doubt had been cast on the cemetery tale by Mastella (but then I thought it might be taken as a gossipy repeating of a supposition of his).

The other was a quote I found on the first page of the newspaper "L'Unità" the other day, taken from an interview with Arthur Schlesinger Jr. by "La Repubblica". It pretty much expressed a stance that is opposite that of the guy who wrote the last article I quoted:

“Berlusconi? He’s a political acrobat, one who is very far from American values. He is running once again in the elections backed by his billions and six television networks without any respect for the conflict of interest rules. In the U.S. he wouldn’t have a chance.”

(This is a translation into English from the Italian; I can't be sure what his original words really were, as I haven't found any trace of it in English anywhere.)

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by Donna in Rome on Sun Mar 5th, 2006 at 05:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks again, Donna. That was a useful and timely diary. I couldn't find any info, in English, online about his Congress address, at least not in the BBC, the Guardian, the Financial Times and the NY Times. Maybe i didn't search carefully enough.

I absolutely agree: how come Hillary seems to be supporting him when it undermines her victory chances?

What percentage of the Italian population is supporting him? With the grip he has on media, it won't be surprising if the percentage is large. What's worse is that he has control over the main TV channels, not over the press, and common people get their info from TV.

I read Prodi isn't getting as much air time. What is your opinion of him? And is he the only rival of Berlusconi? What are his victory chances?

Please keep on informing us.:)))

by Brownie on Sun Mar 5th, 2006 at 07:05:19 PM EST
It's hard to tell with the conflicting polls, but it would seem that the center-left is still in the lead. But Berlusconi commissioned a poll of his own (from an American polling agency) a few weeks ago, and then loudly proclaimed that it said that they were in the lead.

Prodi definitely isn't getting as much air time (like the rest of the center-left). He is officially Berlusconi's rival because, for the first time, "primaries" were held in October for the center-left voters (over 3 million people voted), and Prodi won by an overwhelming margin (over 74%). But to hear Berlusconi, you'd think the candidate was D'Alema. Berlusconi has two main fixations concerning the center-left: the communists, and D'Alema. He insists on saying that the "real" candidate (as in mastermind) is D'Alema, not Prodi, and at one point said he wanted to debate D'Alema and not Prodi for that reason. I think he uses this to keep his followers' fear of the commies fresh in their minds.

Unfortunately, Prodi is about as dynamic as a tree sloth (seems to be a common problem with leftwing candidates everywhere these past few years, doesn't it?), whereas the center-right candidates are always good at projecting great images, even if the substance behind them is nil, or even pure crap. They know how to sell themselves, and the left doesn't. This is the main problem with Prodi: he doesn't excite anyone.

But another thing that worries me, and I never hear anyone mention anything about it, is what’s going to happen with the Italian expat absentee votes.

Italian citizens residing abroad are going to be voting (for the first time) by mail-in absentee ballots precisely in this election.

The right (mostly Gianfranco Fini's former fascist AN party, in particular Mirko Tremaglia) has long championed this cause, and are the ones that wrote and passed the law allowing it. So they've been shrewdly cultivating the "italiani all'estero" (Italians abroad) for quite some time and, since most of those expats haven't lived here for years, they might not know what it's really like nowadays -- and what Berlusconi is really like.

I've been wondering (and worrying) how much the absentee vote may weigh on the elections this time. It might even be one of the reasons why Berlusconi just “happened” to go to the U.S. right now. I definitely wouldn't put it past him. I assume his visit and address were well publicized among the Italian community there, even if hardly anywhere else.

In other words, “official” polls aside, I’m afraid the center-right might smugly have an ace up their sleeve with this absentee vote. And as I said, I haven’t heard anyone even mention it.

Here is something from the Berlusconi government’s viewpoint, which only confirms my fears (my quick translation):

Berlusconi’s reforms: Voting rights for Italians abroad
6 February 2006

For years and years what is an acknowledged right in most major countries continued to be put off. Since it was well known that Italians who live abroad tended to be rightwing, the preceding governments continually put off granting this possibility.
Italians abroad are traditionally more nationalistic than the Italians in their homeland. Even if they live in democratic, and sometimes more advanced, countries, they become aware of the value of Italy, its peculiar characteristics, and the merits it has and which are not so much appreciated by those who live there.
Abroad the Italians were most bothered by the fact that they were completely forgotten and neglected and, until Berlusconi’s arrival, Italy changed its government at every turn, so it was very difficult to follow its politics and receive adequate services.

The Berlusconi Government first set up a Ministry for Italians in the World, and installed the simpatico Mirko Tremaglia, who fought for years to obtain voting rights for Italians abroad.

The upcoming elections will be the first political elections in which the Italians abroad will be able to express their preference and will have their own representatives specifically elected on the four continents.

(Emphasis in second sentence mine)

BTW, the “simpatico Mirko Tremaglia” is about as far-right (as in “nostalgic fascist”) as they come.

See also:

  • an English-language Tremaglia bio;
  • and an eye-opening piece in English here, from a completely opposite standpoint.

Come to think of it, this aspect (absentee votes) of the upcoming election might be worth a separate diary.

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
by Donna in Rome on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 11:34:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
for those of you who have never watched or listened to "Mr. Sparkle". Here he's announcing the list of the candidates for the Italians voting abroad.

I skimmed through the comments, but one really caught my eye:

"More than a comment, I would like some information: I have a number of relatives in Brazil (mostly in Sao Paulo), relatives who will be voting; only a few of them speak Italian, and so even my e-mails might not be very effective. Is there any material available via computer in Portuguese that gives information on the Unione’s policies and the voting procedure and candidate profiles? If so, could I please have a copy to send them?"

Now I'm even more worried. I mean, if these "Italian" voters don't even speak Italian, how many generations back have they gone to allow people of Italian origin to be eligible to vote?

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by Donna in Rome on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 12:29:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How many generations forward from the original immigrants have they considered eligible to vote?

I would think that if someone doesn't speak Italian, but only Portuguese, it would mean that they were born in a Portuguese-speaking country, and have done very little to maintain their Italian culture and ties to Italy. They may have dual citizenship (through their parents and their birthplace). Why should they care to vote in Italian elections?

There's probably an explanation... maybe I'm just nitpicking.

But, as in Bushland, there's just so much that stinks in Berlusconilandia, that it's hard to distinguish exactly between what's rotten and what's not: anything and everything they say or do seems to merit suspicion.

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by Donna in Rome on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 12:55:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In order to create the six seats for the overseas' Senators the recent law had to redistribute seats within the regions to keep the 315 member plenum. The subtraction does not appear to be based on population but on expected political outcome. One seat each was subtracted from Tuscany, Liguria, Piemonte, Lazio, Puglia, Calabria and Sicily. Of these seven, one was assigned to Venezia-Giulia.

As far as political forcast, four are likely to go to the left with a strong possibility of two more. The only region that will definitely go to the right, Sicily, is helped by the other right wing stronghold, Veneto, which got another senator in the deal.

Since senators can't be cut in pieces, the number of senators in each region for the winning coalition fluxuates around 55%. The loser gets about 45% regardless of how bad they showed.

Despite all the mathematical hocumpocum to wittle out a spare senator here and there, the Union still has an advantage of at least 8 senators.

Still a far cry from the obscene majority B enjoyed these past five years and so mismanaged.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 05:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Donna, for these informative responses.

About the Portuguese-speaking Italians, you're right. They don't really seem to be Italian, but rather objects of manipulation.

by Brownie on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 12:20:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Donna, for these informative responses!
by Brownie on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 12:22:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This diary seems to be based on a hypothesis that Clinton, Kennedy, and the rest of the Democrats in Congress are somehow supporters of the liberal left. They aren't. They're centrists by American standards, which puts them to the right of mainstream European politics.

As a data point for comparison, the so-called Patriot Act was just renewed by an overwhelming majority in the Senate (89-10), despite widespread condemnation in the liberal press and blogosphere.

Don't be misled by those who imagine that the Democrats are liberals...

by asdf on Sun Mar 5th, 2006 at 09:44:22 PM EST
Some democrats are, probably Kennedy among them, but Clinton certainly not. She supported the Iraq war, dammit!

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 04:28:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kennedy supported the renewal of the Patriot Act last week...
by asdf on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 08:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, that damns him.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 7th, 2006 at 09:04:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems that whatever value this stunt had aesthetically, the latest polling (as of March 6) show the center-left coalition at 52 and the center-right coalition at 46, which is just about where the polls have been the whole campaign. If anything, Berlusconi is losing momentum if you look at the charts over the past several months.
by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 01:08:05 AM EST
Hm, but the two latest scientific polls (termometro is an internet poll, though apparently weighted and thus much more reliable that your usual freeped CNN poll) are from 1 March - the day of the speech. And that date is probably just the publishing date, with research done in the previous days. I think we should wait for the next polls to see the effect.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 04:25:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The poll was conducted between February 27 and March 1. So it may have just caught the tail of the Congressional circus, barking seals galore.

Am looking forward to next poll.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 05:19:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it will be arduous for the opposition to contrast, as it has up to now, the Prime Minister's America with another America that is more moderate and less extremist than Bush's. Now, in fact, it is clear that with regard to the fundamental problems of international balance, even that America agrees with Berlusconi's way of thinking.

Good morning Italy, good that you are waking up. </snark>

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 04:32:15 AM EST
great diary donna, thanks!

yes you have all been had...the silver-tongued liar pulled off a massive pr stunt.

after the mawkish appeal to memories of young americans unselfishly dying for our freedom etc, to hear that he doesn't support liberation day is unreal.

and all that background from degondi about opus dei, the lega, sicily, the fascists, the melted microfilm....

man when will the voters connect the dots?

and why isn't the left leading with stuff like this, and the amazing facts brought out the other day about how b.'s fortune doubles in perfect tandem with the economic crisis in the country he pretends to govern.

last night he was spouting for hours on one of his channels, whining how the state media gives him only a few minutes, while simultaneously drowning every media outlet with a charm offensive.

the left are a big tent indeed, and by picking the safest candidate, who is so diplomatic and rational but clueless about using media, they are relying on the voters to be sick of b. and his shady 'friends', rather than a coherent, forceful attack on the 'powers that b.'.

are the elections trustworthy in italy, or is there some gaming with the count, ala diebold?


There are no blank spots on the map any more, anywhere on earth. You want a blank spot on the map, you gotta leave the map behind. Jon Krakauer

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 04:45:08 AM EST
or not, I'm afraid there might be another element in play, which no one is talking about (or, naively or stupidly enough, maybe even considering).

See my comment in response to Brownie's, slightly upthread.

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by Donna in Rome on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 11:39:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]


"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
by Donna in Rome on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 12:40:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the 'powers that b.'.
Great pun.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 11:41:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
man when will the voters connect the dots?

40% of the italian voters simply don't care; like the evangelical right won't ever care about Katrina or Iraq as long as they don't have to think about blowjobs, the italian Vatican-indoctrinated masses will be happy to support anyone that is not "a communist", i.e. "that could challenge the secular interests of the Catholic Church".

Then you have about a third of the population that will simply side with the winner. A history of foreign invasions taught us that it's very important to always be on the right side, so this kind of effect is very visible in italian elections much more than elsewhere. Nowadays the word on the street is that "the communists will win", so they should hopefully side with the centre-left.

by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 12:50:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The pope threw in his weight today. He will receive Berlusconi, Casini and then Mastella ten days before the elections.

A similar lop-sided interference in an Italian election has no precedent. Ratzinger should stick to his flock and wealth and mind his own damned business.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 05:19:03 AM EST
It is really annoying how the Vatican acts both as a sovereign state and as a church depending on what is most convenient at any given time. The pope gets to have its cake and eat it, too. Why did the political unification of Italy stop at the Pope's gates?

If the Vatican is a sovereign state, are Catholic priests foreign agents? When the national Conference of Bishops demonstrates against a law passed in Parliament, is this foreign meddling in internal affairs? Are Catholics who put their loyalty to the Church above their loyalty to their country traitors?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 06:04:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the Vatican is a sovereign state, are Catholic priests foreign agents?

LOL!

...or, maybe no laughing matter at all?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 06:19:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No laughing matter at all for me, that's for sure.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 06:30:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are Catholics who put their loyalty to the Church above their loyalty to their country traitors?

As an apatriot, I...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 06:20:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You may be an apatriot, but there are laws in the books to protect the state...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 06:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Leaving a small amount of autonomy to the Pope was a calculation to keep the France government relatively quiet while Cavour and the Savoia kings were publically backstabbing them (France was officially in charge of defending the Church, but the bulk of the French troops were busy elsewhere when the attack on Rome was launched).

In the short term, that move was wonderful: the european diplomacy let Cavour get away with murder almost unscathed. The Pope was furious but isolated, and resorted to knee-jerk reactions like forbidding any catholic from voting for the Italian parliament. Until Mussolini came around and "reconciliated" the parts to get support for his power takeover, the Vatican State looked like an anachronism that would not survive another 20 years of economic and diplomatic starvation. You can add another crime to his list.

by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 01:00:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Pope has a loooooong story of interference, from 1946 onwards...
by toyg (g.lacava@gmail.com) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 12:51:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Vatican has always meddled in Italian affairs, but it appears that no pope had granted an audience to party leaders during elections with the exception of Pius XII. He received Gedda several times in '46 and '48.

The latest news is that neither Berlusconi nor Casini will attend the audience which was allegedly organized last September for the European PPE delegation.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Mar 6th, 2006 at 04:39:33 PM EST
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