Bulgarian Gypsies (Counter Argument)!

by darin
Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 02:45:03 PM EST

First off, I would like to congratulate hitchhiker on an excellent diary entry. I see it provoked enough interest to be put on the front page, which is excellent!

But as a student majoring in journalism I must criticize his entry for addressing mostly the position of the gypsies in the Bulgarian society and not properly presenting the side of the majority of the Bulgarians (even if the gypsies are a minority in Bulgaria, the position of the majority matters just as much). I will try to provide a counter argument to hitchhiker’s diary.


Just like him, I am also a Bulgarian, but my point of view is that of criticizing the gypsy minority.

In short, Bulgaria has two minorities: Turks (living in Bulgaria since the Ottoman yoke and even before that) and gypsies. The Turkish population is represented in the Bulgarian parliament by MFR, The Movement for Freedoms and Rights, which is widely regarded as the Turkish party (although according to article 11 of the Bulgarian constitution, an ethnically based political party can not legally exist). Part of the MFR votes come from the gypsy population, assuring that they will be represented in parliament as well. Currently there is TV news in Turkish as well.

Even though the Turks are still regarded as our former enemies (the Ottoman yoke), Bulgarians accept them much better than gypsies. The cultural gap between Bulgarians and Turks is not small, but both Bulgarians and Turks barely relate to the culture of the gypsies.

There is a reason why gypsies are hated and the reason is their specific cultural heritage and the recent history of Bulgaria. During the communist regime, which lasted for about 45 years and ended in 1989, the gypsy community was strongly oppressed by the Todor Jivkov government. A good example of the time would be the city of Burgas, situated on the Black Sea coast. Gypsies were forced to live in ghettos located near the skirts of the cities and were used for low qualified jobs. At a certain point, gypsies were "encouraged" by the police (then “Milicia”) not to leave their ghetto and enter the city as rarely as possible. Every morning several trucks would transport the gypsies in town, before anyone was awake, so they can clean the city, and then transport them back before they could disturb anyone. The Milicia were not very fond of gypsies either – any situation would be dealt with by starting with the individuals with the darkest complexion. It is important to note, that during those years, as well as today, all Bulgarian citizens (everyone with a Bulgarian residence – Bulgarians, Turks and gypsies) were legally required to go to grade school.

Then the communist regime fell and oppressed gypsies, whose jobs were assured by the communist government, were left unemployed and uneducated. The quickest way to earn some cash was by stealing – pick pocketing, braking into apartments (have in mind that during communist time the crime levels were really low and people usually never locked their doors; today most houses and apartments have metal doors with several locks), and most benefited, as well as today actually, from social welfare (they are unemployed and receive money for their increasingly large families). The cultural gap quickly widened, because of the gypsies’ trying to earn money the alternative way. Most of the gypsies stopped going to school, as they were quickly employed in their “family business”.

Here is an excerpt from a short article, named “Bulgarian Roma: The Multiplication of Misery”, written by Worldpress correspondent Plamen Petrov.


The Bulgarian government estimates that there are 313,000 Roma in the country today. But the official figures, based on old census information, do not take into account the speed of the growth of the Roma population, or that many Roma identify themselves as either Bulgarians or Turks, depending on their religion or social status. Roma advocates put the population at 800,000-900,000—a significant figure against Bulgaria’s fewer than 8 million inhabitants.

Aid workers estimate that 90-95 percent of Roma in Bulgaria are chronically unemployed, hampered by illiteracy and prejudice, and the overall economic slump. There are some Roma “barons,” flashy dressers in shining luxury sedans, scorned by their kin for their aloofness. And about 117 Roma non-governmental organizations distribute international aid, often to little effect. Nor are Roma political leaders setting a good example, engaged as they are in ego-polishing and personal wars.

I will follow hitchhiker’s lead and give you several examples from my personal experience with gypsies, during the last 15 years. I believe the stories will serve the purpose of describing the current situation.

As a 10-year-old kid, I was stopped on the street by a gypsy, who asked me how far I live. I never expected to be attacked by someone on the street (see what happens when communism leaves you by surprise?) and idiotically told him I live quite far away. Then he demanded my cash – I refused him and ran to the closest building and pressed all the ring bell buttons. He came to me, hit me in the stomach and left running. I never forgot that lesson.

Several years later, we managed to make enough money to open a shop in my home city of Burgas. The shop was robbed on a daily basis by gypsies (and clients were pick pocketed), but Bulgarians adapted fast to the situation and as soon as someone saw a gypsy running down the street with clothes in his hands – he would stop him with a fast kick. It was like a mini-war, which lasted for seven or eight years during the nineties.

Our shop was robbed three times in the period of two years. They would use small gypsies to get into an opening they cut in the shop’s side, and then throw out everything that would fit through the hole. At some point the police managed to get two of the gypsies, while they were robbing our shop for the forth time (we weren’t the only ones robbed, all the shops in the center of the city were hit at different moments in time). On the next day they asked for my mother to go there, so she can confirm the stolen goods were ours. Because of the systematic robbing of our shops, she couldn’t stand gypsies, but when she came back her story shocked me horribly. They asked her to go to the interrogation room – the two gypsies were there already, one of them wearing a pullover from our shop (they usually try to put as many clothes on and as fast as possible, so they don’t seem as if they are stolen). One of the policemen would ask a question, and then hit the gypsy, no matter whether he was lying or admitting to the crime. After the first several times my mother asked them to stop (she just wanted the goods back), but they went on for twenty minutes – at the end one of the policemen took off the blood-soaked pullover from the gypsy and gave it to my mother, whom they forced to stay there for the whole time. Even though she despised gypsies, she was even angrier at the policemen.

My conclusion would be that as long as gypsies are unwilling to educate and prefer to earn money the easy way, Bulgarians will treat them as they do right now. I have already met a couple of gypsies that are graduating from a university, and I have to say thar I am extremely impressed with their desire to work as part of the system, not against it. Although there will always be Bulgarians and Turks that will occasionally say “Oh, no, we are educating the criminals now!”

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You're saying things that not many people would dare share openly, and you deserve all due respect for that! Thumbs up for this diary!

I can resist anything but temptation.- Oscar Wilde
by Little L (ljolito (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 03:15:25 PM EST
Thanks, Little L! :) I have a lot of stories about gypsies, some in their favor, some criticizing their culture and actions, but my idea was to show a contrary position to that of hitchhiker - I think both diaries complement each other quite well in describing the reality.

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 04:47:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No Little L, there is no great dare involved in criticizing the Gypsy minority without any Gypsy present to counter it.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 06:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, actually there are offended sides here, that's why I wanted their comments on the issue.

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 04:51:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is not great dare, but for me it is a sign of frankness of spirit to be able to share one's personal views and experience by constructing, at least for me, a good argument, which I don't necessarily agree with. Even though that I believe the author knew before posting his diary that the comments will be critical or controversial.

And I would also prefer to have a Gypsy actually commenting on this.

I can resist anything but temptation.- Oscar Wilde

by Little L (ljolito (at) gmail (dot) com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 08:53:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I did expect to get a lot of controversial comments, but didn't expect to be flamed and called a racist. I wanted to discuss the cultural problem, without turning the topic into a racist discussion.

Thanks for the honest comment, Little L.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 10:29:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dear Darin, I am glad you are representing the other side of the problem. Although my diary focuses on the suffering of the Roma population, my view is not that restricted, so I certainly agree with most of the points you make.

As I recently replied to a comment, there are Roma and Roma. Some of them are dirty, illiterate, do not want to find jobs, steal, beg or even curse when you refuse to give them money. Actually, they start blessing you while you pass by them, but if you do not give them money, they begin cursing. So, I would surely not tolerate such behaviour and I cannot pity them. But, there are really nice Roma who are civilized enough, well-clad, educated and willing to come to friendly terms with the Bulgarians. But, the Bulgarians do not accept them. What I do not approve is our intolerance and lack of morality. Not all Bulgarians are perfect - some of them steal as well, do not study and are not more civilized than the Roma. But still.... I guess no Bulgarian would ever be asked to leave a shop just because he/she has a fair complexion, right? Correct me if I am wrong!

I do not make any generalizations. As I already said, not all Roma are good and I approve neither their way of living, not their basic understanding of how they should make a living. I just say that probably part of the problem is rooted in our discriminatory behaviour and attitude towards them. At least it has started that way, and now it is a vicious circle, as I have stated in my diary.
by hitchhiker on Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 04:27:38 PM EST
You are right, I can't stand gypsies that make a living out of stealing, but then again, we have Bulgarians and Turks doing the same things.

I can remember, several years ago, I was in a restaurant with friends and there was a gypsy family sitting at the table next to us - they were all properly dressed, talking to each other (not sure whether in Bulgarian or not, doesn't matter as long as they are behaving properly). I was pleasantly surprised I didn't actually despise them - at this point I realized I am not a racist, but just mad at most of the gypsies, and their image.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 05:04:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just one correction: "I guess no Bulgarian would ever be asked to leave a shop as long as he/she has a fair complexion, right?"
by hitchhiker on Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 04:32:55 PM EST
One of my closest personal friends in Finland is a gypsy, Last Tuesday we were doing a 16 hr day installing some artwork on a cruise ship 'Freedom of the Seas' (the irony!). I took a photo of him using a powerdrill - since, in our interpersonal mythology,  this was significant.

But that hard day was very happy. We had fun doing the work. My friend is very old fashioned. If I eat at his house, I am expected to prepare for food properly - washing my hands etc . And then his 'lady'¨serves us, but does not sit at the table with us.  I accept this. I do  not moderate my talk, but I accept the sítuation. And obey the rules of my friend when I am in his house.

When he is in my house. some different rules apply, but I see no reason to force him into my rules. I buy some non-alcoholic beer, and we all sit together to eat. I respect that.

Maybe he did work as a torpedo for Mossad in Sweden in the Eighties. Maybe all those scars on his left forearm are not knife cuts. Or the bullet entry scars. Everyone fears him, but I don't.

This is the best salesman I know. Street smart.  Fun to be with. Old-fashioned.  Reliable.

Business between us is not according to the rules I know. It is highly moral, but based upon a simple reality - exchange of value. There is no value added tax in this system. It's about alpha, beta and other males finding accommodation in the everyday.,

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 05:17:17 PM EST
Exactly! That's what I am trying to convey here - that gypsies in Bulgaria (in fact the Balkan region) have a predominantly bad reputation. But gypsies are people just like us and if they behave as what the society percieves as "normal" are in no way different than us (or undeprivilleged).

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 05:50:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For my friend, according to his culture, I am a weirdo.

But maybe what we havei n common is being 'Outsiders'

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 06:02:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't understand whom did you refer to when talking about being "Outsiders", but I suppose you meant what different cultures perceive as "normal".

You are right, but as you said in your previous post, when you go to your friend's hourse, you play by his rules. That's why I believe the majority defines what is "normal" and the others have to abide by their laws.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 06:18:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't regard 'playing by the house rules' as submission,  It's tactical.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 06:21:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then we both agree on that point :)

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 07:01:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe the majority defines what is "normal" and the others have to abide by their laws.

Well then, if the police goes to a Gypsy quarter, they should obey the local rules.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 06:38:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well then, if the police goes to a Gypsy quarter, they should obey the local rules.

Your statement is absurd. Do black people in America live by their rules or that of the American government?

This is not the Czech Republic, where gypsies don't have a Czech citizenship.

The Roma population hold Bulgarian citizenship and should obey the laws of Bulgaria, just as Bulgarians and Turks. Or maybe Turks should follow the Turkish laws, even though if you are in Bulgaria.

DoDo, I am extending an official invitation to you. Please be my guest in Bulgaria and me and you will take a walk through the gypsy ghettos of the major cities in the country. But I will first take you to talk about this idea with my American professors, who've been in Bulgaria long enough to understand the dangers of such a trip.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 06:51:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your statement is absurd.

Hell yeah: it's called a tongue-in-cheek. It was meant to crown the exchange between you and Sven.

DoDo, I am extending an official invitation to you. Please be my guest in Bulgaria and me and you will take a walk through the gypsy ghettos of the major cities in the country.

Hm, that would be just something for my cultural anthropologist brother,  maybe I shall convince him to come in a joint visit.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 05:53:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not the Czech Republic, where gypsies don't have a Czech citizenship.

The Roma population hold Bulgarian citizenship and should obey the laws of Bulgaria, just as Bulgarians and Turks. Or maybe Turks should follow the Turkish laws, even though if you are in Bulgaria.

Since when does not having citizenship release people from following the law of the land? And you accuse others of making absurd statements?

Also, what do you mean when you say that gypsies in the Czech republic don't have citizenship? That all gypsies in Czechia are actually Slovak?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 08:00:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since they don't have a Czech passport, they are not even treated equally as other Czech citizens. They are basically guests of the country and have less rights, for what I've read (and no, they are not Slovaks either :)).

Actually to be allowed to hold a Czech citizenship, a person must have a clean criminal record in the last five years, and must have lived on the territory of the Czech Republic for same duration. Since most gypsies were OK only with the second requirement, they were never allowed to become Czech citizens. But nobody told them, that the Czech government changed the requirements recently and now only requires a person to have lived on the territory of the country for the last five years.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 04:07:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now this again shows you don't know much about what you are talking about. So I have to present the real Czech situation.

During WWII, the Nazis exterminated most Czech Gypsies. Most Czech Gypsies of today were moved there (most of them forcibly, and often on the place of deported Sudeten Germans) from Slovakia. Many of them lived in workers' housings at factories, which later didn't count as permanent residence, or in special settlements where they weren't registered. Children given to foster parents or foster homes were without permanent residence permits, too.

After the break-up of Czechoslovakia, the new citizenship law was designed (consciously, see in this article) to disenfranchise Gypsies (and prevent further immigration from Slovakia) by exploiting the previous circumstances and more, all the while speaking about "Slovakians". Applicants had to have proof of residence, the five-year crime-free record, and renouncement of Slovakian citizenship (which many of them didn't have in the first place, having been born to "Slovakian" Gypsy parents in the Czech Republic).

Worsening the problem were practical issues like the legal inexperience and lack of counsel of most Gypsies, and local courts who interpreted laws their own even worse way (a worst example: one "Slovakian" Czech Gypsy was forced to go to Slovakia to bear her child; but also examples of rewoking citizenship).

As a result of these combined reasons, in 1993, about 100,000, that is half of Czech Gypsies became stateless.

Now this was not the end of the story. Major amendments were forced on the law: in 1996, by when about 20,000 stateless Czech Gypsies remained, the crazy 5-year-no-crime-record rule (which was valid irrespective of seriousness of the crime - stealing a bread four years ago was a valid reason for exclusion, being sentenced for murder six years ago was not) was eased to a case-by-case basis. In 2000, by when about 10,000 stateless Roma remained thanks to increased NGO activity, the law was finally changed big-time by allowing declaration of pre-1991 residence. Only those who moved away since or sought asylum elsewhere remain excluded.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 08:07:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, in effect, there are still gypsies within the Czech state, without citizenship, right?

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 12:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Read my last sentence again.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 02:53:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you provide numbers on how many are left in the Czech state without citizenship and how many have citizenship?

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:13:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a quick reply, don't have time for more now.

As explained, almost none were "left" in the Czech Republic after 2000. However, many of those excluded because they moved into other countries in the meantime (most of them to Slovakia) moved back. For those moving away, I found figures of 20,000-25,000, or 10% of the total; for total Roma immigrants from Slovakia (Czech Romas moving back + Slovakian Romas newly moving) I saw similar numbers. What I'm not clear about and would have to look up (as can also be seen from the termination of my account in 2000) is whether further changes have been made to the law around the time of the Czech Republic's joining of the EU.

BTW, last time I forgot to note two further nasty hurdles in the original law designed to hit poor Gypsies: the hefty legal prices involved ($300 per person) and the requirement of dual parental approval for children's applications (hitting both children of divorced and children in orphanages).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 12:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was really useful, thanks. And the laws you mentioned - really looks like gypsies will be hurt mostly. Do you think the laws were passed as they provide good anti-Roma policy or maybe they just weren't well designed?

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 01:11:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the first post, I put in a link to an article on the issue which includes actual quotes pointing to conscious intent. On the other hand, some lawmakers might have more thought about immigration of Roma from Slovakia than resident Romas, and the fate of the children in orphanages might well have been due to bad design. (This was remedied in the 1996 amendments.) Then again, the behaviour of the local courts that applied the lawwas most consciously racist.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 01:23:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should add: the circumstance that various NGOs and Gypsy organizations and international monitoring organisations pointed out the problems and demanded the repeal or radical change of the law from day one (e.g. from 1993), but change came slowly, implies that even if some effects weren't intended, they were welcomed by lawmakers. (Current President Klaus's party even voted against the 2000 amendments.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 05:43:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why I believe the majority defines what is "normal" and the others have to abide by their laws.
True, but civilized majorities respect minorities.

Here is the all-time best discussion of majority rule, by Piet Hein.

MAJORITY RULE

His party was the Brotherhood of Brothers,
and there were more of them than of the others.
That is, they constituted that minority
which formed the greater part of the majority.
Within the party, he was of the faction
that was supported by the greater fraction.
And in each group, within each group, he sought
the group that could command the most support.
The final group had finally elected
a triumvirate whom they all respected.
Now, of these three, two had final word,
because the two could overrule the third.
One of these two was relatively weak,
so one alone stood at the final peak.
He was: THE GREATER NUMBER of the pair
which formed the most part of the three that were
elected by the most of those whose boast
it was to represent the most of the most
of most of most of the entire state --
or of the most of it at any rate.
He never gave himself a moment's slumber
but sought the welfare of the greater number.
And all people, everywhere they went,
knew to their cost exactly what it meant
to be dictated to by the majority.
But that meant nothing, -- they were the minority.



By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 08:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru, that was an excellent addition, couldn't take off the smile off my face while reading it. Thanks! :)

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 05:29:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It wasn't really meant seriously... or maybe it was. I misunderstimate my own intentions sometimes.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:33:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find this diary disturbing, and probably not for the reasons the diarist intended.

I understand that you have had some negative experiences with Roma, but this diary seems to me to be using the same kind of rhetoric that is used to justify discrimination of minority groups the world over, saying that if Roma are discriminated against, it's because they deserve it?  Tell me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to be.

So let's see, we've got a veritable grab bag of stereotypes:  dirty, illiterate thieves who breed like rabbits and steal because they're too lazy to go to school and work real jobs like we do.  Did I miss anything?

My conclusion would be that as long as gypsies are unwilling to educate and prefer to earn money the easy way, Bulgarians will treat them as they do right now.

Yep, that pretty much seems to be placing the blame squarely on the Roma for the way Bulgarians treat them.  If they weren't so awful, we wouldn't be so awful to them.

That conclusion ignores the fact that there is a vicious cycle at work here -- poverty and marginalization breed crime, which begets discrimination, which begets more poverty and more marginalization.  Do the Roma have the same educational opportunities as other Bulgarians?  Are employers willing to hire Roma who are educated and "clean and respectable-looking"?  Is there a way out of the cycle, or does society reinforce it?  I suspect the latter.

If you think maybe I'm wrong, read this.  Actually, if you think I'm right, read it anyway.

The diarist addresses some 60 years of oppression and forced ghettoization under the Communist government of Bulgaria.  I've gone in search of some older history here of Roma in Europe.  Some examples:

c.1300. The Romani Aresajipe; the arrival of Roma in Europe.

Romani groups begin to be enslaved in southeast Europe.

1385. The first recorded transaction of Roma slaves in Romania.
1445. Prince Vlad Dracul of Wallachia transports some 12,000 persons "who looked like Egyptians" from Bulgaria for slave labour.
1496-1498. The Reichstag (parliament) in Landau and Freiburg declares Roma traitors to the Christian countries, spies in the pay of the Turks, and carriers of the plague.
1554. In the reign of Philip and Mary, an Act is passed which decrees that that the death penalty shall be imposed for being a Gypsy, or anyone who "shall become of the fellowship or company of Egyptians."
1637. The first anti-Gypsy law in Sweden is enacted. All Roma should be expelled from the country within one year. If any Roma are found in Sweden after that date the men will be hanged and the women and children will be driven out from the country.
1650s. Last known execution for being Gypsies, in Suffolk, England. Others are banished to America.
1661. Johann Georg II, elector of Saxony, imposes the death penalty to any Roma caught in his territory.
1710. In Prague, Joseph I issues an edict that all adult Roma men will be hanged without trial and that boys and women be mutilated. In Bohemia, the left ear is to be cut off. In Moravia the right ear is to be cut off. Lodging or otherwise aiding Roma is punishable by up to six months forced labour.

Prince Adolf Frederick of Mecklenburg-Strelitz issues orders that all Roma can be flogged, branded, expelled, or executed if they return. Children under ten are to be removed and raised by Christian families.

1749. The year of the "Great Gypsy Round-up" in Spain. Gitanos are separated from "the bad and the good" through inquiries and witnesses reports. For the "bad," punishment is forced public works. Escapees are hanged. Motherless girls are sent to poor houses or into service for "honest" people. Older girls and wives of sentenced men with children under seven are "educated in Christian doctrine and the holy fear of God" and sent to factories.
1773. In December, Maria Theresa, Empress of Hungary, orders all Romani children over five in the Palatinate of Pressburg and at Fahlendorf to be taken from their parents. They are transported to distant villages and assigned to peasants to bring them up for a stipend of 12-18 florins a year. Most of the children run away to rejoin their families, who take refuge in the mountains or disappear in the plains.
1842. The hospodar of Moldavia, Mihail Sturdza, emancipates all state slaves; however, in Wallachia and Moldavia private ownership of Romani slaves is still legally permitted.

1844. The Moldavian Church liberates its Romani slaves.

1847. The Wallachian Church liberates its Romani slaves.

1885. Roma are excluded by United States immigration policy; many are returned to Europe.
1899. An Information Agency, the Central Office for Fighting the Gypsy Nuisance (Nachrichtendienst in Bezug auf die Zigeuner), is established in Munich under the direction of Alfred Dillmann to collate reports on Roma movement throughout German lands, and a register of all Gypsies over the age of six is begun. This includes obtaining photographs, fingerprints and other genealogical data, and particularly information relating to "criminality." This leads to two initiatives: Dillmann's Zigeuner-Buch (1905), and the December 1911 conference. This agency does not officially close down until 1970.
1905. Alfred Dillmann's Zigeuner-Buch appears in Germany. This consists of three parts; an introduction which presents the arguments for controlling Roma, a register, 310 pages long, of over 5,000 Roma, including name, date and place of birth, genealogy and kinship, criminal record and so on, and lastly a collection of photographs of Roma and Sinti from various police files. The introduction maintains that the German people are "suffering" from a "plague" of Roma, that they are "a pest against which society must unflaggingly defend itself," and that they "must be controlled by the police most severely," being "ruthlessly punished" when necessary. The notion of the particular dangers of mixed Romani and white individuals, whom Dillmann considers to constitute almost the entire Roma population, resurfaces in the Nuremburg Laws in 1935. These racially-motivated statements also support the Zigeuner-Buch's emphasis on the Romani genetic tendency toward criminal behavior.
1934. Sweden passes a law on sterilization, which becomes harsher in 194l. Anyone, including Roma, seen as leading "a socially undesirable life" are to be sterilised. Allthough the law does not explicitly say so, it suggests that Gypsies and "Tattare" (Norwegian "Wanderer") are not socially desirable and thus must be sterilised to keep the Swedish race clean.

From January onwards, Roma in Germany are selected for transfer to camps for processing, which includes sterilization by injection or castration. Over the next three years, these camps will be established at Dachau, Dieselstrasse, Sachsenhausen, Marzahn and Vennhausen.

1944. Zigeunernacht, literally, Gypsy Night. On August 2, four thousand Roma are gassed and cremated in a single action at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

In Slovakia, Roma join the fight of partisans in the Slovak National Uprising.

1969. In Bulgaria, segregated schools are set up for Roma.

etc.

Most stereotypes are based on some ugly reality, but it is a reality taken out of context and pushed to extremes.  So some Roma steal; the answer to the problem of crime is not to be found in scapegoating an entire people, it is in addressing the underlying reasons for crime, which include poverty and discrimination.

I do not feel it is acceptable to say that an entire people can expect to be discriminated against until every last one of them is no longer poor, no longer poorly educated, and no longer on the fringes of society.  Because there is no society that has eliminated those things, and no people who deserve marginalization.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Thu Apr 13th, 2006 at 07:16:58 PM EST
Great comment!

There's nothing I can add, you've covered it all.

I can only add that my personal experience makes me very wary of those who defend a stereotype like this.

Since I'm of mixed race I have the (mis)fortune of having been mistaken for various ethnic identities when I've travelled. It's no fun looking like you belong to the wrong group in a society and things only get better when people let go of the stereotypes enough.                                                                            

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 04:26:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And lest it seems I'm picking on the nation that the diary writer comes from. Most places have a varying degree of racial tension. It is unfortunately a hard to avoid product of how our societies have evolved.

What matters, in my experience, however, is the way that progressive people try to engage with the problem.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 04:28:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Answering your previous two replies, take a look at comment I made to stormy present, just below. I would really like to have your comment, because you have personal experience on the issue.

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 04:58:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent argument, I like it that my diary entry provoked such a response. I will try to go point by point here.


I find this diary disturbing, and probably not for the reasons the diarist intended.

I understand that you have had some negative experiences with Roma, but this diary seems to me to be using the same kind of rhetoric that is used to justify discrimination of minority groups the world over, saying that if Roma are discriminated against, it's because they deserve it?  Tell me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to be.

You are not wrong at all. Discrimination, especially in this form is indeed, as you say, employed all around the world and used to oppress minority groups. But my analysis of the post-communist situation actually explains why the gypsies were forced into their state of being - I don't label them "evil"; I also try to explain there reasons for the gypsy stereotype, which you depicted quite well:


So let's see, we've got a veritable grab bag of stereotypes:  dirty, illiterate thieves who breed like rabbits and steal because they're too lazy to go to school and work real jobs like we do.  Did I miss anything?

This is indeed the general perception of gypsies on the Balkans, something I tried to explain in my diary; what I also tried to convey to the reader, through the use of examples of personal experience, is that I had contact with educated, well-dressed and well behaved gypsies, and I accept their presence happily. In fact I have a couple of friends from Syria, and as dark as their complexion can be, I always enjoy their company - so this is not a discussion on racial differences, but on cultural differences.


Yep, that pretty much seems to be placing the blame squarely on the Roma for the way Bulgarians treat them.  If they weren't so awful, we wouldn't be so awful to them.

That conclusion ignores the fact that there is a vicious cycle at work here -- poverty and marginalization breed crime, which begets discrimination, which begets more poverty and more marginalization.  Do the Roma have the same educational opportunities as other Bulgarians?  Are employers willing to hire Roma who are educated and "clean and respectable-looking"?  Is there a way out of the cycle, or does society reinforce it?  I suspect the latter.

The vicious circle exists for sure, but is given too much credit in justifying the gypsies' attitude and actions, especially in the transition years. Yes, Roma have the same constitutional rights like Bulgarians and Turks (a difference from the Czech Republic, for example), but most importantly, they have the same constitutional obligations - one of them is that they are obliged to go to grade school (I already discussed that in my diary entry), but they simply refuse to do so. This widens the cultural gap even more. And if you are talking about the incredibly high prices of education - no such thing exist in Bulgaria. Grade school is free, in high-school you have to buy textbooks (the price of a textbook in Bulgaria is about 5-15 Euro), the state universities charge about 100 Euro per semester. The average salary in Bulgaria is about 175 Euro. But gypsies don't even go to grade school, because their parents use them for the "family business" (read the diary I linked in the beginning, as well as the Worldpress article, for some statistical information).

About the quotes you posted - can you see a trend here? Every major European country oppresses the gypsies. Have you heard of any other ethnicity being so oppressed? Bulgaria entered the history books for protecting "its" Jews, but yet we see such a strong response to the gypsies - you comment on it very well here:


Most stereotypes are based on some ugly reality, but it is a reality taken out of context and pushed to extremes.  So some Roma steal; the answer to the problem of crime is not to be found in scapegoating an entire people, it is in addressing the underlying reasons for crime, which include poverty and discrimination.

You are right! But can you define it, so we can discuss on it? What makes the gypsies to be hated so much throughout Europe? And don't give me the vicious circle again, we are talking about all European and Balkan countries.


I do not feel it is acceptable to say that an entire people can expect to be discriminated against until every last one of them is no longer poor, no longer poorly educated, and no longer on the fringes of society.  Because there is no society that has eliminated those things, and no people who deserve marginalization.

There are poor Bulgarians and Turks, but no one discriminates them. I still insists that the reason is the big cultural difference, combined with the economic situation after the end of the communism.


Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 04:55:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll let the stormy present answer the specific points you raise with her comment.

I'd instead like to suggest that if you have the time you explore the issues around the Australian aborigines.

It may be that seeing the "cultural vs. racial" discrimination issue in a context that (I presume) is not so close to home there might be something to be learned that applies to this discussion.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 09:41:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll try to read about the Austrialian aborigines, I tend to like their native music quite a lot actually, so it will be nice to read about their culture and any conflicts.

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 09:46:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Darin let me push you a bit to clarify your position. Are you arguing that because "gypsies are hated so much throughout Europe" that hatred is justified? Furthermore, is there really such hated in all of Europe? I've experienced it very strongly in the Czech republic were it seems hard to have a reasonable conversation on the topic (on that note I want to seriously thank you for engaging in a reasonable discussion). On the other hand I've also witnessed, in France (the other European country I'm most familiar with), fascination and admiration for Roma music and culture. As for the "big cultural differences" what are they? Can one really talk of Roma as one monolithic group?

This talk of "them" as "the other", as it refers to any group, always triggers warning signs for me, especially if it's tied to negative descriptions of "the other". It reminds me of historical descriptions of Blacks in the USA and all the "cultural" reasons that were given to justify segregation or deny the right to vote or even justify slavery (I'm thinking more in historical terms here but there would be plenty to say about contemporary discrimination as well). It also reminds me of the othering of Jews and the horrors of pogroms and WWII as well as the othering of the whole African continent. The romantic notion of the "noble savage" (wiki), the paternalistic notion of Africans as children that needed protection, or the notion of the threatening "savage" with immoral behavior and vise or "the primitive" both probably in need of missionary intervention.

I'm glad you happily accept the presence or "educated, well-dressed and well behaved gypsies" but doesn't that description sound terribly condescending as well?

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 10:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This link may have already been referred to in previous discussion on the other diary but in case it hasn't I'm including it here since it seems to contains information relevant to what we're discussing:

 A web report by the European Roma Rights Center titled "Roma Rights 1/2006: Exclusion from Employment"

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 11:50:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
First off, thank you for an excellent comment, Alexandra!


Darin let me push you a bit to clarify your position. Are you arguing that because "gypsies are hated so much throughout Europe" that hatred is justified?

I was discussing the quotes from one of the previous comments. The author claimed that gypsies were oppressed, and horribly, through the years and throughout Europe. I accept that, I even mentioned the horrible attitude toward gypsies during the communist government. What I am trying to get at is, why are gypsies so widely hated? I understand the notion of pure racism and why some people would simply hate them for their looks, but as I said, I am not a racist (I have different friends from around the world, some asians, others arabs, etc.). So if not their looks, what's left? I can only think of the cultural differences and the economic hardship of the last 15 years in Bulgaria. But then again, not all European countries are as poor as Bulgaria, so why are gypsies hated there? I raised this discussion in hope to get to the point with your help.


This talk of "them" as "the other", as it refers to any group, always triggers warning signs for me, especially if it's tied to negative descriptions of "the other". It reminds me of historical descriptions of Blacks in the USA...

In Bulgaria they are always "the others" because they don't fit in the society. Bulgarians are mad, because they pay their taxes and can't raise their kids properly, while at the same time gypsies live off social welfare, because they have a lot of kids and don't pay taxes, as they are unemployed. They don't even pay for their electricity and government officials  or representatives are afraid to go in their ghettos, because they are usually attacked for trying to cut off  their electricity.

Last month a police car went in one of the ghettos, investigating a group of gypsies, who attacked someone (don't remember whether Bulgarian or gypsy). The people started throwing rocks at them and a couple of the gypsies attacked the police car with axes, I actually saw the photos, quite scary. So how can you expect people not to draw a line between the gypsies and themselves?

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 01:32:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I understand the notion of pure racism and why some people would simply hate them for their looks, but as I said, I am not a racist (I have different friends from around the world, some asians, others arabs, etc.). So if not their looks, what's left?

Why do you look for a justifiable reason for racism? Jews, too, were hated universally. Many Christians believed that Jews sacrifice children, with zero basis in reality.

Alexandra spoke about a vicious cicle. That long history of the repression was also a long history of again and again reinforced and refined negative stereotypes about the Roma.

Have you read hitchhiker's link in the other thread? About the systematic media mis-representation of the Roma in Bulgaria, exemplified by that 1997 event when all the papers wrote in great detail about how a Roma family walking across a road caused a bus crash, yet police declared ten days later that no one at all walked across or along the road?

Racism needs no proof. They can make it up anytime.

In Bulgaria they are always "the others" because they don't fit in the society.

You just said you aren't racist. So why this blanket statement?

Do "well-clad, clean and behaving" Romas not fit into society (ones that shopkeeper thought hitchhiker is)?

And what is this society you speak about? Since they were born in Bulgaria and grew up there, they are just as much part of 'society' as you are. Either that, or we could speak of parallel societies. At any rate, they don't deserve you anything. (It's more like the majority deserves inclusion to the minority, due to their greater dependence.)

As for the rest of the rant (of blanket statements again), haven't the others just discussed the origins of this situation, and the lack of real attempts to change it?

By the way, have you read my accounts of how police and judges deal with Roma in the other thread?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 06:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Racism needs no proof. They can make it up anytime.

Lemme refine this. Racism can also operate with proof - by turning the particular into the general. "some X did Y" becomes "X do Y". And unless members of X are 100% innocents, racism will always find examples to reinforce the theory.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 06:52:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Lemme refine this. Racism can also operate with proof - by turning the particular into the general. "some X did Y" becomes "X do Y". And unless members of X are 100% innocents, racism will always find examples to reinforce the theory.

You are talking about generalizing here, "if one is bad, all are bad". We have statistics to prove whether that is right or wrong.

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 07:10:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
None of your sweeping generalising statements I flagged were based in statistics. And statistics is irrelevant, at least if you try to equate "more of X do Y than of Z" with "all/most X do Y", as you do with crime statistics below.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 05:18:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact I've provided statistics (I've linked to Worldpress article) and commented that they are important.

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 04:08:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not for what I flagged as sweeping statements, I repeat.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 06:40:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Provide a couple of the most shocking for you and I will try to provide links (or/and will translate).

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 12:36:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi, DoDo, nice to have you commenting on my diary entry!


Why do you look for a justifiable reason for racism? Jews, too, were hated universally. Many Christians believed that Jews sacrifice children, with zero basis in reality.

True. But when you see a gypsy send his kid to steal a high-voltage cable with the words, adressed to the cameraman, "I've got more kids, even if something happens to this one. It's tough living in Bulgaria", then you know something is wrong.


n Bulgaria they are always "the others" because they don't fit in the society.

You just said you aren't racist. So why this blanket statement?

Do "well-clad, clean and behaving" Romas not fit into society (ones that shopkeeper thought hitchhiker is)?

And what is this society you speak about? Since they were born in Bulgaria and grew up there, they are just as much part of 'society' as you are.


A well grounded statement, but I see that you have either not been to Bulgaria (or Balkan countries) or are talking about the ideal situation, when all the gypsies, Bulgarians and Turks live happily.

I will try to explain again. Most gypsies live in "katuns", i.e. they live with their families and neighboring families. Others, "institutionalized" gypsies, live in aparatment buildings, just like the Bulgarians and Turks, and they usually don't cause any trouble, because they want to be friendly with their neighbors. Since even policemen don't wander in the katuns unless something really gruesome happens (and even then they might get attacked), the gypsies there have a bigger freedom to do as they will (Bulgarian law or not).


Either that, or we could speak of parallel societies. At any rate, they don't deserve you anything. (It's more like the majority deserves inclusion to the minority, due to their greater dependence.)

Parallel societies within the legal boundaries of a country? If you go to another country, don't you willfully agree to be legally bound to the system in power?

What do you mean they don't deserve us anything? If they are within the legal boundaries of the state of Bulgaria (and mind you, a state that constitutionally inhibits ethnic conflicts and provides equal rights to everyone with a Bulgarian citizenship), they are obliged to follow the law, or face the consequences. In other words, they should pay their taxes just as we do, or they are breaking the law. Are you trying to give gypsies more rights than to Bulgarians or Turks?

We are seeing an interesting phenomenom - gypsies with Bulgarian citizenship can't even speak the official language of the country, and in fact, they really don't need to - they can understand each other perfectly in the katun.


By the way, have you read my accounts of how police and judges deal with Roma in the other thread?

Must of skipped it, will read it right away, though I can imagine. I will comment on that on the other thread!

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 05:34:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, I once trekked in Slovakia with a friend, who had this idea that Gypsy quarters are no-go zones for "whites". But our road from the train station to the woods led through a Gypsy quarter. I told him "So what?" and he had to follow... On the way back to the station in the evening, he was unconcerned.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 07:08:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

BTW, I once trekked in Slovakia with a friend, who had this idea that Gypsy quarters are no-go zones for "whites". But our road from the train station to the woods led through a Gypsy quarter. I told him "So what?" and he had to follow... On the way back to the station in the evening, he was unconcerned

Something I would never do, after being robbed and attacked by gypsies.

Actually the Bulgarian government had your vision of ghettos being safe, so they built a metal docking station (the ghetto is near the port of Burgas). Gypsies managed to disassemble it for about half an year, including the big crane, which was used for work. Metal is expensive, so near the ghetto there are no road signs or grates on the ground, just big holes, than can cause driving accidents.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 05:41:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are so many things to criticise in the above short piece that I just refrained from it, but now that pavlovska's contributions and your efforts to listen made a change for the better in the discourse, I take the occasion for some extra input.

I take you weren't attacked in the ghetto, nor have been into many ghettos (I suspect you have been to none), so your position is not too logical. Even if near, the docking site is outside the ghetto, and scrap metal thievery is not the same as robbery, so again two illogical links, and I again get the sense of a sweeping statement about something that all/most Gypsies do. And question regarding the docking station is, of course, proper guarding.

Now, scrap metal thievery is another separate problem usually linked to Gypsy perpetrators, one I as someone working for a railway is familiar with, so this shall be the main part of my reply. This is also to inform the Westerners here about something they may not know much about.

A number of nomadic Gypsy clans used to be specialised in collecting nicked or broken metalware from peasants, and either repairing and re-selling it, or bringing it to scrap metal handlers. After the 'communist' dictatures crushed nomadic lifestyles and the 1989/90 changes brought joblessness and a throwaway economy, some members of these clans switched to thievery of public property, including metal in disused state factories, railroad catenary, signal cables, even rails.

The first thing I note is, obviously, that metal thieves aren't necessarily active only near their dwelling places. They are even active beyond borders. When catenary is stolen along a strech of 30 km, that's long already. One spectacular case was the tearing-up of railway tracks leading to a prison near Munich in Germany. In Hungary, I once read of a gang from Romania being caught.

The second thing to note is that while Gypsies are usually assumed as perpetrators hereabouts, it can't be taken for certain that Gypsies constituted the thieves. A counterexample: I once participated (in a very small part) in a project to re-live a narrow-gauge railway, where a difficulty was that most of the rails were torn up and stolen - reportedly by local villagers who came with carts and lorries. There are no Gypsy quarters in villages of that region (but there is poverty). Meanwhile, in Northern Germany, metal theft is usually blamed on Polish organized crime (and there are very few Gypsies in Poland).

The third, and most important, thing to note is that every form of theft not for own consumption is a supply/demand problem, which is best solved on the demand side, and so far we only looked at the supply side.

The demand side problem is crooked scrap metal handlers who don't look at the origins of what they buy (and reap most of the profit from the theft, I note) - some of them even designate targets to the thieves -, and controllers who are either corrupt or have insufficient means/time for the job. (My railway sometimes sent out scouts on its own, and then scrap metal handlers shrugged when asked how they could buy two tons of cables with a railway emblem two days after the media were full of the news of a hit on a railway line.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 06:57:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree on all your points, thanks for a very nice addition to the discussion.

The father of a friend of mine usually operates rather big train composition; he used to handle the train going to Sofia. He was once rewarded with a medal for stopping just in time, some 20-30 meters before a large cut section on the railway tracks. He saw the gypsies using anglecutters from afar, for what I remember, so he was able to stop the train from derailing just in time.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 02:02:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I added my reply in a separate comment below: http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2006/4/13/14453/5466#54
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 12:27:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not quite sure where to start in reply to your comment.  I still think the basic problem is in saying that it's their fault that they're discriminated against.

I think you severely underestimate a few things, including the difficulty of overcoming discrimination by sheer force of will, and the cumulutive effects of hundreds of years of systematic oppression.

You have here a people who have been enslaved, executed, excluded and forcibly sterilized.  Their children have been taken from them "for their own good."  They have at some times been banned from churches and at other times forced to attend them.  It seems that there is not a country in Europe that has not persecuted them, with America doing its share of that as well.

After centuries of that kind of treatment, you can't just snap your fingers and tell people that they can trust "mainstream" society now.  You know how long memories are in the Balkans; 1389 was just yesterday, right?

And it is clear from your diary and hitchhiker's that they can still count on being discriminated against, whether they fit the stereotype or not.

There is a name for blaming and punishing an entire group for the actions of some of its members.  It's called collective punishment, and it was specifically outlawed under the Genevea Conventions, specifically in the Fourth Convention, article 33, and the Second Protocol.

Those particular chunks of international law refer to armed conflict, not peaceful democracies, but I would argue that collective punishment is even less justifiable in the absence of war.

As you point out, there continues to be widespread discrimination against Roma in many countries in Europe, some of it still quite systematic.  The first thing that needs happen is that those countries with discriminatory laws on their books need to change them.  

Let us take your specific example of education.  Assuming that you are correct about Roma "refusing" to send their children to school (and you do say that you know some educated Roma, so it can't be 100 percent true), the solution lies not in berating the Roma for doing this, but in finding out why they place so little value on education and doing something to address those factors.

My guess is that if this is true of some families, it is because they see no benefit in education.

This is a major issue in many developing countries, especially in rural/agricultural communities, and especially when it comes to the education of girls.  When education of a child will do nothing to benefit the family or the community, but will deprive the family and community of the work of a productive member, what's the incentive to let the child go to school?

Are people willing to hire educated Roma?  I asked this question before, and it's important.  If an educated Rom is not significantly more likely to find work than a non-educated Rom, what's the incentive to get an education?  Why make the effort, if potential employers will turn you away as a "dirty gypsy" and shopkeepers kick you out of their stores before you can spend your money?

Rather than just berate the Roma for intrasigence and "refusal to change," a more productive approach would be addressing the root causes of their marginalization.  And taking a zero-tolerance approach to discrimination against them is a good place to start.

If the cycle is to be broken, it must start somewhere.  You seem to be expecting the victims of discrimination to stop others from discriminating against them.  I would argue that the people doing the discriminating are the only ones who can do that.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 05:43:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I still think the basic problem is in saying that it's their fault that they're discriminated against.

They are discriminated against, because of the general notion against gypsies, you are right. But it is not like they suddenly changed their ways, so they stopped stealing and are extremely eager to integrate into the society, but we don't allow them to, right?


You have here a people who have been enslaved, executed, excluded and forcibly sterilized.  Their children have been taken from them "for their own good."

There was an uproar from the media about big numbers of gypsies going to Greece to give birth and sell their kids. They were OK with it, but some started reporting to the Bulgarian police, that they have been cheated, and received less money than expected. Gypsies didn't even know that human trafficking was against the law.

This proves another point. People in western societies wouldn't mind having a gypsy for a kid, while people from the Balkans put gypsies without parents in foster homes and leave them there growing up without any love from anyone close to them. The only good side is that receive some basic education there (though this is far from comforting).


It seems that there is not a country in Europe that has not persecuted them, with America doing its share of that as well.

Last night I read that Sweden gave more gypsies than Jews to the Nazis. You are right here.


After centuries of that kind of treatment, you can't just snap your fingers and tell people that they can trust "mainstream" society now.  You know how long memories are in the Balkans; 1389 was just yesterday, right?

Not really. Bulgarians live along with Turks and though they enslaved us for 500 years, only a hundred years were enough to accept them as equals and not to point at them, when they cross the street. Gypsies were here even before the Turkish yoke, and we still feel them distant.


And it is clear from your diary and hitchhiker's that they can still count on being discriminated against, whether they fit the stereotype or not.

I mentioned we have a shop and had a lot of gypsies create troubles for us in the past. Yet we never refused a gypsy to enter the shop and buy goods. In fact we used to trade with some of them, trying to have a business of their own. But if a gypsy enters the shop, all eyes will be on him, watching his every move - you can't forget how gypsies used to steal clothes or pick pocketed the customers.


There is a name for blaming and punishing an entire group for the actions of some of its members.  It's called collective punishment, and it was specifically outlawed under the Genevea Conventions, specifically in the Fourth Convention, article 33, and the Second Protocol.

Those particular chunks of international law refer to armed conflict, not peaceful democracies, but I would argue that collective punishment is even less justifiable in the absence of war.


And yet Bulgaria is expected to enter the European Union in 2007 or 2008. Are other European countries OK with this treatment of gypsies?


Let us take your specific example of education.  Assuming that you are correct about Roma "refusing" to send their children to school (and you do say that you know some educated Roma, so it can't be 100 percent true), the solution lies not in berating the Roma for doing this, but in finding out why they place so little value on education and doing something to address those factors.

My guess is that if this is true of some families, it is because they see no benefit in education.

This is a major issue in many developing countries, especially in rural/agricultural communities, and especially when it comes to the education of girls.  When education of a child will do nothing to benefit the family or the community, but will deprive the family and community of the work of a productive member, what's the incentive to let the child go to school?

A deep bow for that. You managed to put your finger on the issue. Gypsies have big families, because that means high income (the Chinese "syndrome").


Are people willing to hire educated Roma?  I asked this question before, and it's important.  If an educated Rom is not significantly more likely to find work than a non-educated Rom, what's the incentive to get an education?  Why make the effort, if potential employers will turn you away as a "dirty gypsy" and shopkeepers kick you out of their stores before you can spend your money?

Excellent argument. There are well educated Roma, but you don't see them working face to face with people - the "gypsy look" creates a feeling of distrust and you don't want to hire a gypsy to handle your clients, do you? Ironically, educated Roma end up either doing technical work in warehouses ("behind the curtains") or as representatives in Parliament.

If you are a black person, though, you wouldn't meet such disrespect; there were a lot of African students in Bulgaria during the communist time (some Asian as well). So we are still facing a general distrust in gypsies.


Rather than just berate the Roma for intrasigence and "refusal to change," a more productive approach would be addressing the root causes of their marginalization.  And taking a zero-tolerance approach to discrimination against them is a good place to start.

If the cycle is to be broken, it must start somewhere.  You seem to be expecting the victims of discrimination to stop others from discriminating against them.  I would argue that the people doing the discriminating are the only ones who can do that.


It's impossible to make granny and grandpa to be OK with accepting gypsies as equals - as well a lot of stubborn people. Since, for certain, not all gypsies are engaged in illegal activities - how about they try to reform from within? They show a distrust in the system, so why don't they help themselves? Then the easiest thing would be to show the new statistics that more Bulgarians steal than gypsies - this will be a shock to Bulgarians, trust me on that!

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 06:27:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am finished with this diary now.  It's clear that you don't understand what I'm trying to say.  I thought at first that perhaps you were blind to your own bias, but you're not; you are embracing it.  And I see no point in debating with someone who thinks it's OK to be racist.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 07:19:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Stormy, I am trying to show you the context from within which Bulgarians act - it is a challenge, I am trying to find alternative solutions. Quitting on the problem is not a good idea.

In fact this is the first time someone called me a racist, and I felt horrible after you wrote that. Not one of my international friends ever called me that, even though we discussed such issues several times. You could label me stubborn, but why racist?

Actually I expected to discuss the cultural side of the conflict, but of course, the conversation quickly jumped into a racist discussion, which I wanted to avoid from the very beginning.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 07:34:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Darin, I think you need to go back and read your own comments again several times.

This diary and your comments on it are full of sweeping generalizations and negative stereotypes about an oppressed minority.  It sounds to me, and apparently to several other people who have commented on this thread, that you are arguing that discrimination against an entire ethnic group is justified because some members of that group do things you don't like.

If that is not what you mean, perhaps you need to clarify your statements a bit further.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 08:13:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, I admit that I wasn't clear enough, but I was indeed trying to be, that's why I keep posting, to get my point through.

I just had a discussion with my friends about this thread, who comforted me, saying that it is always hard to explain the problem with gypsies to a foreigner; over lunch they asked me to illustrate to you (and the readers) the situation with a specific example, which they reminded me of.

Have you seen Dave Chapell's show, he's a black American comedian, who likes discussing just such issues. He says, "Now, there are niggers and black people. I can't stand the average nigger that tries to get away with crimes, because that gives black people a bad image."

Do you now understand how Bulgarians perceive the Roma? We can't stand those who steal, but we accept the ones that don't. The average Bulgarian is not a racist, but an extreme patriot, something typical for the Balkan nations.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 10:26:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And what I am trying to say to you is that no matter what, it is not OK to demonize an entire people.

If I am robbed by someone with blue eyes, it does not make it OK for me to despise all people with blue eyes.  If I see my fellow citizens discriminating against innocent blue-eyed people, it is my responsibility to say something.

Do you now understand how Bulgarians perceive the Roma?

I never had a problem understanding that.  What I don't understand is why you would defend it, instead of trying to change it.

We can't stand those who steal, but we accept the ones that don't.

It doesn't sound to me like that is true.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 11:14:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And what I am trying to say to you is that no matter what, it is not OK to demonize an entire people.

Never meant otherwise, that's why I created this discussion. If I didn't care for the attitude towards Roma, I wouldn't discuss it. Now I am concerned that international viewers of the discussion automatically took the side of the minority, which is extremely disturbing.


I never had a problem understanding that.  What I don't understand is why you would defend it, instead of trying to change it.

I want to change the way Bulgarians threat people who look like Roma. Some don't have a problem with that - most Bulgarins engage in helping Roma children in foster homes and really like it (and there are mostly Roma children there). But I would never acquit anyone who resides in Bulgaria and doesn't play by the rules, which all the others have to follow (not breaking the law, paying taxes, etc.). If the Roma want Bulgarian citizenship, then they are expected to follow the law, just as the rest of us.


We can't stand those who steal, but we accept the ones that don't.

It doesn't sound to me like that is true.

As I said in my replies, we own a shop and trade with Roma, because some of them travel outside Bulgaria and act as dstributors. Additionally, there are famous Roma orchestra, which are great. There are small Roma firms as well. But you won't see big Roma bosses (except the so called "barons", basically Roma mafia bosses) or Roma salesman. I am surprised that even international companies refuse to hire Roma, even though they don't have a long history in Bulgaria (and hence be culturally biased).

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 12:17:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
tsm, thanks for this. I refrained from commenting in this thread because I felt an instant urge for flaming, but that doesn't solve anything. The views expressed are rather wide-spread hereabouts even among supposedly progressive intellectuals.

To tell you another horror story, half a year before Hungary joined the EU, I was staying for the night after a project with a lot of youths. One of them somehow started talking of Gypsies, and the end of it was him declaring that we would much sooner get into the EU if we deported Gypsies. This utter idiocy was met with loud approval.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 06:13:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I actually held off on responding for a while, thinking that you or someone else (one of the usual suspects?) would do a better job of it, but when nobody else said anything... I just couldn't let it go un-commented-on.  (Which is a vice of mine.)
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 06:54:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Vice? Valour! And you don't shoot over the top like me.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 06:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, not this time....
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 07:00:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to actually thank you for posting, your points raised a lot of issues about the Roma population in the Balkans (and I suppose Europe as well).

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 06:41:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

tsm, thanks for this. I refrained from commenting in this thread because I felt an instant urge for flaming, but that doesn't solve anything. The views expressed are rather wide-spread hereabouts even among supposedly progressive intellectuals.

To tell you another horror story, half a year before Hungary joined the EU, I was staying for the night after a project with a lot of youths. One of them somehow started talking of Gypsies, and the end of it was him declaring that we would much sooner get into the EU if we deported Gypsies. This utter idiocy was met with loud approval.


I hope that by "supposedly progressive intellectuals" you don't address the Bulgarians (or other Balkan nationalities).

You instantly stand on the side of the minority, but you don't acknowledge that we are ready to discuss the issue with you. You don't and can't really perceive the situation from the point of view of our culture. What gives you the right (moral or legal) to judge another culture and easily dismiss our arguments, even though you see we are open to the problem and are willing to discuss it?

And about your story - Hungarians, as well as Romanians have a lot of problems with their gypsy population, but the statement that "we would much sooner get into the EU if we deported Gypsies" is utterly stupid and devoid of any sense. What is this, Nazi Germany? You have a point here, DoDo.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 06:38:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope that by "supposedly progressive intellectuals" you don't address the Bulgarians (or other Balkan nationalities).

I address supposedly progressive intellectuals hereabouts (meaning, the formerly communist countries). I haven't bothered about national distinctions because I don't think they matter here. Unlike for the other critics of you, for me all of your stories about Gypsies and all of your arguments are familiar, awfully familiar - these are not Bulgarian things but Central/South-Eastern European things. I was not judging "your culture" but criticising your views (apparently to no avail).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 05:35:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo, stop being so uptight, I am here to discuss the issue. I can equally label you stubborn in your views, just as you do with me.

So, we are supposedly progressive and you are actually progressive - are you better than us then? Wasn't this whole talk about equality? I've read a lot of your posts and I honestly picture you as a very well educated person, I would certainly say better educated on a lot of issues compared to me, but you are still stubborn :)

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 12:33:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed I am very stubborn in my views :-)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 02:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your hostility to the Roma is based on two forms of reasoning. The first is that they are on average poor, uneducated, more likely to not have jobs, more likely to be criminals - in other words they perfectly fit the profile of racial minority underclasses.  I think enough commentators have addressed that trope in this thread. The other is the 'once I met a Roma who mugged me' reasoning.  It's a surprisingly popular way of justifying prejudice, surprising because it is so obviously meaningless.  Ever met a Roma who didn't mug you? You mention knowing a nice well educated one - are Roma therefore all nice and well educated?

A few years ago while living in Germany I got to be friends with my neighbour - a fun nice thirty something self-consciously very left wing computer programmer. One evening while drinking wine and smoking weed she mentioned how she'd never met any Jews until she lived in New Jersey for a year or two. Oh great, I thought to myself, next comes the standard left wing German guilt speech - all very admirable, but it does get old when you get it about once a week. But I was wrong. You see she'd had this boss, a Jewish boss, who seems to have been an absolute asshole. You know, she said, I'd never understood why the Nazis hated Jews so much, but now I do - he was greedy, exploitative, vulgar, etc, etc, etc. Of course that doesn't justify what the Nazis did but... Stifling the urge to either hit her over the head or run screaming out of the room I tried to gently point out that living in north Jersey she must have met countless Jews and so on and so forth. But of course it didn't work, it never does. Not with the ones with their stories about Jews, nor with those about lazy, thieving blacks from my relatives, not with the idiots who explain to me that there is no interest in high culture in the US cause nobody they met in their suburban Ohio high school exchange trip cared... But all it is, is finding 'evidence' that will confirm preconceived notions.

by MarekNYC on Fri Apr 14th, 2006 at 07:33:34 PM EST

Ever met a Roma who didn't mug you? You mention knowing a nice well educated one - are Roma therefore all nice and well educated?

I see your reasoning. But you didn't describe all the possibilities - for example, I was never mugged by a Bulgarian or Turk (Turks are in fact even less inclined to such acts than Bulgarians, for what I know).

You are trying to say that if one robbed you, not all are criminals. Absolutely true, no argument here. But the percent of Roma criminals is significantly higher than that of Bulgarians and Turks.

About your story - I see your point. People like to fall in generalizations - "If one Jew is bad, all are bad". That's not what I meant though - the statistics  show that there are more criminals from the Roma population. Whereas, for example, a recent poll shows the black people in the US are in fact not even close to the crime levels exhibited by the newly entering immigrants, especially those from Mexico. So the notion of "thieving blacks" is actually unfounded, at least now.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 07:07:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not what I meant though - the statistics  show that there are more criminals from the Roma population. Whereas, for example, a recent poll shows the black people in the US are in fact not even close to the crime levels exhibited by the newly entering immigrants, especially those from Mexico. So the notion of "thieving blacks" is actually unfounded, at least now.

Darin, you still don't get it. A higher crime rate still doesn't make blanket statements of the "thieving blacks" type justified. If 10 instead of 1 out of 100 are criminals, that's still a small minority. (And if there have been a few reports of 'whites' being attacked in Gypsy quarters, as they have been in Bulgaria as well as Hungary and Slovakia, that still makes most of them safe.) Meanwhile, you still insist to take police statistics at face value.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 05:40:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are we are entering a discussion where we have to evaluate the morally acceptable ratio of criminals to population? Personally, 1/100 is fine, but 10/100 (every tenth person is a criminal) is frankly disturbing. I think we should compare to other European countries, because it may turn out Bulgarians and Turks steal a lot compared to other European countries' citizens.


And if there have been a few reports of 'whites' being attacked in Gypsy quarters, as they have been in Bulgaria as well as Hungary and Slovakia, that still makes most of them safe.

"White" people as you labeled them, enter gypsy quarters just as much as gypsies go out of their neighborhood. I believe we've seen or heard of accidents in both scenarios. The problem is that gypsies and "whites" keep a distance from each other, unless their job inolves close contact.


Meanwhile, you still insist to take police statistics at face value.

If there is another tool to measure the crime levels, please do share!

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 12:47:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
       I've been following this topic for some time now, and I would to express my views as well. The gypsy problem in Bulgaria is huge and it will get worse with time. People say that we should integrate them into our society, help them and so on and so on...well, things are not that simple. First of all, gypsies themselves DO NOT want to integrate. They said that once and they keep on saying it. Turns out they like the way they live now. There's no way they will dislike it. They receive 72% of all social funds, while providing only 3% of Bulgaria's GDP (turns out Bulgarians work to feed them), they can use electricity and water without paying for it for years (and if you try to make them they riot),they can commit crimes without any consequences, they live without jobs because they know the state will help them again (and again, and again and again).All they do is make children. As far as I know you get certain benefits when you have children here which is OK. But they have a child, the state pays for that, then they have another child, the state pays again and this turns into a circle. Basically they make money by having children and not working. This cannot go forever and has to stop.
       Another thing - crimes. They are the people who commit not just crimes, but horrible crimes, led by the feeling that they are above the law. I can easily make a long list with gypsy crimes committed just this year. A year ago they killed a professor in Sofia and as far as I remember they smashed his head with a stone.No consequences whatsoever.A month ago they attacked two policemen with axes and that was not all. They tried to kill them. The policemen had followed a drunk gypsy driver to his home.The result - a gypsy riot.Why - because the police wanted to arrest the drunk driver.About 50 gypsies with axes came out and attacked the policemen who barely survived the accident. No consequences whatsoever.And even if something happens to them, they will scream to the end of the world that their rights have been violated.Well, where are my rights then? Or maybe it's OK if I get beaten or robbed, or even worse - killed by some gypsies? My family had a house in Stara Planina (a mountain range in the middle of Bulgaria, stemming from Serbia and going to the Black Sea).Gypsies robbed the house 9 (nine) times and took everything that could be taken. With time they literally took the house apart, burning all the furniture to keep warm and selling the bricks for money. Years later, nothing - these same people rob other people now. How do you expect me to like these people, who refuse to work and earn money the decent way and live like the entire society is in debt to them. I don't want to pay taxes so that this money goes to feed gypsies!
      Don't get me wrong. I am not against gypsies as a whole.There are some honest gypsy people here in Bulgaria,who work for their money.But they are few.99% of all gypsies are those horrible people I described above. These people must bear the consequences for their actions and if they commit crimes, do not want to work and so on, the state must be merciless towards them. This is the only way for order to be restored.
      To all sugar-coated West Europeans, don't tell me that we treat them bad and so on...you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe one day, when we join the EU you will find out how "nice" our gypsies are. In fact I am sure you will. Then we can meet again here.
by Leader on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 12:32:25 PM EST
you have no idea what you are talking about.

Not being a Western European, I perfectly know all the things you are talking about. <rest of my reply censored>

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 05:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, why do you feel offended then? I was addressing those Westerners who only talk without knowing anything about the problem.
by Leader on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 04:15:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In assuming that Westerners have no idea what we speak of, you are also being bigoted.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 06:33:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On one hand, because I share with those Westerners the realisation that the way you interpret and address "the problem" is prejudiced, to say the least. No, I will say it, it is racist. On the other hand, because I battled such rhetoric in real life way too many times.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 06:35:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to put words in your mouth, but having lived in West Germany, describing yourself as an apatriot, and given the tone of your diaries on Hungarian politics (including minority issues like Hungarian-Romanians), I am not at all surprised at your position.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 06:41:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed.

Fortunately, it's not only Westernized hard-leftists who take up the issue. For example, the top civil rights NGO in Hungary dealing with Gypsy rights issues was founded by a rural conservative, one who was an MP with the MDF party in the first post-'communist' nationalist government.

I also note there is also East-West connection of the issue the other way. For example, the Hungarian parallel to that case of a ghetto mob attacking police with axes ended in death of the 'white' intruder, and members of the Gypsy family sought and gained asyl status in Strasbourg. Or the beggars, the beggar mafias (also portrayed in the Kusturica film Dom za vešanje / The Time of the Gypsies) are active in Western European cities, too.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 06:55:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am actually dismayed at the fact that the Gypsy issue is vanishing from public awareness in Spain, despite the fact that prejudice is still pervasive.

Spain has one of the largest Gypsy populations in the world, competing with Romania and Bulgaria for first place depending on the estimates (source). It is interesting that Spain has no official race statistics (like France, the census does not classify people by race) and that in Romania and Bulgaria the number of gypsies in the census is much lower than "independent" estimates. Up to 2% of Spanish population is gypsy, and close to 5% in Andalusia (compareble to the proportion in Bulgaria).

Pretty much my only personal experience with Gypsies was of three children in my primary school. Other children considered them dangerous and more or less shunned them, and I had very little contact with them that I can remember. However, the power of socialization is such that I retain a measure of visceral mistrust just from being in the same school! Another experience which was common back then but no longer was of 'goat shows' where a family would go around and play music for donations while having a goat perform to the music.

In the 1980s Madrid had a severe shanty town problem, and there were vigorous efforts to house the inhabitants of these settlements. People used to [wrongly] assume that anyone living in these shanty tows was a gypsy, and resisted fiercely any attempt to relocate these people to their neighbourhood. When I was 13, many of my classmates and their families actually attended demonstrations to try to stop a notorious relocation project ("El Ruedo de la M30") which, to my knowledge, has not resulted in increased crime, integration problems, or depressed property values. But that didn't stop my I-am-not-racist-but neighbours.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 07:18:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is interesting that Spain has no official race statistics (like France, the census does not classify people by race)

Well, that's better than the Czech Republic, where Gypsies were fined for not declaring themselves Gypsy in census.

and that in Romania and Bulgaria the number of gypsies in the census is much lower than "independent" estimates.

Same is true for Hungary. According to sociologist research I have seen, there are two reasons: some fear they would be registered as such and officially discriminated against, others don't want an ethnic identity and want to be recognised as members of the country.

In the 2001 census, 190,046 citizens identified themselves as some variant of Roma in general, 129,259 as culturally Roma, 46,685 as of Romani mother tongue, and 53,323 said they use the language in the family. Meanwhile, the median estimate is of some 350,000 Roma, the highest estimate is 1 million (out of 10 million citizens).

BTW, by ratio of total population, Slovakia is also in the top (most quoted estimate would be around 5%, higher estimates around 10% there too).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 08:59:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
All interesting points (in particular the sociological explanation of the discrepancy between census and "independent" studies)!

But now I've got to make a joke, a bad one preferably, because on topics such as this, which like Israel/Palestine diaries are traps for anyone getting too involved, joking is the easiest way to comment without commenting.

So I'd just like to say that the Czech Rep., Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria may have large numbers of gypsies in their population, but in France we have the best of the best, we have the Gypsy Kings.

ps: anything after the first sentence in my comment is not addressed to you in particular, DoDo

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 09:11:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now time for a real comment.

In France, gypsies, or gitans, are nicknamed in a somewhat pejorative manner "manouches". Administrative properspeak is "gens du voyage", which could translate as "the nomads" but is closer to "people that are into travelling". This is another one of these politically correct expressions, just like "personnes à mobilité réduite" (people with reduced mobility) is another one for handicapped people in wheelchairs.

All towns in France are required by law to provide parking spaces for gypsies, and seeing how a town goes about providing this space generally gives a good indication of what the mayor thinks of them. Sometimes the spaces are nice, near parks. But generally they are near garbage dumps, in floodable areas of land near rivers, etc. If gypsies do not like the arragement that is provided to them, they can't invade other areas as these are craftily blocked by towns (for example a height limitation horizontal bar will be placd at the entrance of another parking place in town to prevent caravans from entering).

In larger towns the municipality must caretake mobile education and doctors for gypsy youths.

In general, gypsies keep to themselves, but are widely distrusted, seen as thieves etc. A farmer who sees a gypsy group park near his farm will start blaming them if eggs get stolen from his hatchery. But not to them directly, to visitors, friends and family. Because no one is manly enough to challenge the source of one's prejudice.

Recently the town of Perpignan was the scene of street fighting between French Arabs and French Gypsies (I added "French" here because I frankly don't know why we should call them Arabs or Gypsies).

What else can I say? The cigarette brand "gitanes" may popularly convey French culture, but I can assure you that no one thinks of it as relating to the actual "gitans" (gypsies) behind the name.

The only thing I dislike about gypsies is the mess they leave behind them (litter etc) when they move on to the next town. But this is not something I direct specifically at them. Tourists do the same, drunken youths do the same ...

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 09:30:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Somewhere in Southern France, near a small village, Gypsies hold a regular (every year, ever four years?) big gathering, with tens of thousands attending. I can't recall more details (but vaguely I recall as if it were a Christian festival) - maybe you know what and where this is?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 10:07:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 10:29:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At Sainte-Maries-de-la-Mer the Roma venerate Saint Sarah, a black virgin. I wonder how this is related to the Catalan Virgin of Montserrat, the Swiss Virgin of Einsiedeln, or the  "Black Madonna" of Czestochowa. Just how many black Virgins are there in European Christianity?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 11:46:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree, it's quite amazing. Maybe it's balanced with all the Africans who worship a white virgin.

sidenote: do you know of anyone who worships Jesus as a Palestinian Arab?

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 03:57:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pretty much my only personal experience with Gypsies was of three children in my primary school.

I had Gypsy class-mates in elementary school too. One of them later (in the early nineties) became an anarcho-syndicalist, as reaction to some of his technical collage classmates turning skinheads. (He also seriously wanted to become an explosives expert, funny combination :-) )

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 09:11:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, a small data point on then West Germany: I remember a teacher of mine explaining to class that driving around with Mercedeses doesn't mean that the German Gypsies are rich, as being nomadic, all the money others spend on their homes are in those cars (and attached caravans).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 09:58:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To all sugar-coated West Europeans, don't tell me that we treat them bad and so on...you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe one day, when we join the EU you will find out how "nice" our gypsies are. In fact I am sure you will. Then we can meet again here.
In case you're not aware, Spain probably has the largest gypsy population in Western Europe. I am fully aware of how "nice" gypsies are. In fact, the more aware I become of how they have been treated in Spain since the 15th century, the more disgusted I am. Spaniards are fond of saying "I am not racist, but...", just like Bulgarians and Eastern Europeans generally.

Bah.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 07:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have noticed that there is quite a division on the issue of gypsies in Bulgaria.

Non-Bulgarians are generally inclined to think that we (Bulgarians) are discriminating gypsies because of racial/ethnic prejudice, and we are to blame for their bad condition.

Bulgarians, on the other hand... True, Bulgarians may be biased about the topic, but do not forget one essential fact: we actually live here. We know from personal experience what the situation is like.

From MY personal experience: gypsies prefer todo everything the easy way. There have been many cases when gypsies were offered jobs (relatively good ones), and arable land (of quite decent quality). They refused all that! They stated clearly that they wanted money... and not just once. They wanted regular cash inflows, without them actually doing anything to earn it.

There have been gypsies coming to my door, asking for "help for the poor." Poor??? They wore stylish clothes... one of them even had blonded hair! And if you offer them food or clothes? They refuse it! They explicitly say that they do not want food and/or clothes - they want money.

A story from my grandfather: he talked to a gypsy boy that begged on the streets of my home town. He asked him "what do you buy with the momney you earn here?" The boy told him that his parents would take all the money he earned, and buy booze with them. Then, they would get drunk and beat him for "not bringing enough money home."

And my personal observations show that the majority of gypsies are of that type. I have lived here for 21 years, and I have witnessed many expressions of the "gypsy culture."

I will post some more examples later... until then, take a look at the photo at the top of this page. What kind of mother would ever leave her child as dirty as the one on that photo?

by Gatekeeper on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 02:08:13 PM EST
In fact they keep their children dirty because they know this will elicit sympathy and maybe money...so they do it on purpose. I do not help such hypocritical people.
by Leader on Sat Apr 15th, 2006 at 02:59:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And you really believe these nonsens?
It is hard to discus things with people who does not have real arguments. When you do not know real facts there is nothing to talk about. One know-nothing stupid can ask more questions than a thousand professors can answer...as we say politely in Flanders.

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 06:41:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So what is your argument?! I say this because I know this is the way it is. I live here and not you. It is very easy to talk about all this from Flanders, 1500 km away from here...why don't you come here and I'll show you gypsies.
by Leader on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 04:20:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not so fast... we have gypsy's here too.
I met gypsy's reguraly during my childhood and youth (1960's) since they were trekking from town to town and village to village here in Flanders to sell things and repair stuff (the throw-away society was not invented yet)
I loved their horse-pulled colorfull wagons and the feeling of freedom they brought with them, since their same aged as me were not forced in a rigid catholic school.
My parents were openminded and had no objection as we played together and sang with them around the fires when they camped near our town.
As so many western boys I tryed to play guitar in that period (Dylan, Beetles ...coming up) but gave it up when I heard the music of Django Reinhardt, also a gypsy (agreed not a Roma but Sinti).Django played with Duke Ellington, B.B.King and many others and influenced  the modern music till today with his gipsy-style music (ask any good guitar player, they know Django).
There are still Roma , Sinti and other gypsy people around here. The horses and camp-fires disappeared , and they are only allowed to stay on dedicated places with their mobil-homes. Some settled and live in our towns.
We have racists in Flanders, and the idea that gipsy's are not thrustworthy, thieves, living of our social securety......is still wide-spread. But the same things are said of the immigrants of other country's, especially Africans and Arabs.

There are other story's too: political ; Last year there was a high-level diplomatic incident between Bulgaria and Belgium concerning the Roma : dig that story out....very educating...

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 05:41:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and let's not forget 2005 Tory PM-hopeful Howard (himself a Hungarian Jewish immigrant, BTW) who made railing against "travellers" a new element of to Tories' xenophobic election rhetoric.

However, the situation of Gypsies is much worse in formerly communist countries. Two top reasons are the former regimes' policies to settle and blind-employ (employ without giving real work to them) Romas, and that they were the first to be fired and last to be hired in the post-'communist' economic collapse.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 06:45:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You want it play dirty ? well start with this one : Hundreds of thousends of Roma where murdered in the holocaust....nobody defended them.
For your own mental-sanity sake, start reading about the Roma.....and come back not before two months.



The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 07:01:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Darin I just got back online, I'm usually off on weekends, and found all the replies from you and others. I took the time to reply once more and hope you will take the time to read this post to the end. I agree with Dodo, why are you trying to justify discrimination and racism against the Roma? It's one thing to explain the complexities of the situation in Bulgaria, I always find that makes issues more interesting and it's one of the reasons I read your diary in the first place, but it's an entirely different approach to make one blanket statement after the other about the Roma. It doesn't provide much useful information, except to tell me about the prejudices you've internalized.

As for the statistics that "show that there are more criminals from the Roma population" the only statistics I saw in the other thread on this topic still do NOT justify making blanket statements about all Roma (or even all Roma who live in segregated neighborhoods) as you do repeatedly.

I've unfortunately learned very little usable information from your replies other than the fact that at age 10 you were punched and robbed by someone you identified as Roma, that your family store was robbed three times in 2 years by people identified as Roma (I'm sorry you and your family where the victims of these crimes), that you happily accept the presence of the few "educated, well-dressed and well behaved gypsies" you've meet but that based on the few negative experiences you've had and the news reports you've read or watched about violence in ghettos you would never walk through a Roma neighborhood as Dodo described doing without incident and you feel comfortable making many blanket statements about the Roma as one monolithic group.

The main information you provide is that many Bulgarians have a negative view or fear, as you describe yourself having, of the Roma. This is relevant information but none of this tells me much about the Roma or the realities of why the ghettos you describe exist and it seems to discount the problem of discrimination against the Roma.

Blanket statements such as the ones below don't tell me much except that you are comfortable making uninformative generalizations about a group of people:
"they don't fit in the society."
"gypsies live off social welfare because they have a lot of kids and don't pay taxes, as they are unemployed."
"They don't even pay for their electricity" (I understand there was some conflict over electricity distribution to a ghetto area but you describe it out of context and as if no Roma paid for electricity. See the EU report below for more on the discrimination by the electricity company)
"government officials or representatives are afraid to go in their ghettos" (I don't doubt there is fear since you yourself are afraid but how do people get a welfare payment if they never deal with government officials?)
Roma who live in apartment buildings "usually don't cause any trouble, because they want to be friendly with their neighbors."
"gypsies with Bulgarian citizenship can't even speak the official language of the country"

In one of your replies to The Stormy Present you asked "Bulgaria is expected to enter the European Union in 2007 or 2008. Are other European countries OK with this treatment of gypsies?" The answer is NO! This is in fact an issue raised in the European Union Commission's Bulgaria: Comprehensive Monitoring Report 2005 (pdf). As the report explains "The Commission, as guardian of the [EU] Treaties, is now monitoring Bulgaria's preparations for accession in order to ensure that this country can meet all the duties and requirements of a fully-fledged Member State by accession, in the interest of both current Member States and Bulgaria. This Comprehensive Monitoring Report presents the results of the Commission's assessment of Bulgaria's preparations for accession." It's not a pretty picture when it comes to the treatment of the Roma (note that even the electricity issue is brought up in the report in a way that provides a very different perspective on the battles for electricity you mention). For more on the EU commission's 2004 and 2005 assessment of the treatment of the Roma in Bulgaria there is a good review here


 Protection and integration of minorities

The effective and sustainable integration of Roma remains an issue of major concern. The efforts made by Bulgaria to implement the "Framework Programme for Equal Integration of Roma into Bulgarian Society" lack sufficient strategic approach, coordination and finance. This Framework Programme is still in its early stages, and related documents and action plans adopted by the government remain largely on paper.

Key reforms in combating discrimination in education, healthcare and housing are still outstanding. A long-term action plan in line with the "Decade of Roma Inclusion 2005-2015" (launched in Sofia in February 2005) has been drawn up and contains objectives in the areas of education, healthcare, housing, culture and discrimination. Bulgaria needs to to ensure that this action plan is properly resourced and implemented.

A number of cases were filed under the Protection against Discrimination Act, and in three cases the Sofia Electricity Supply Company was found guilty of treating Roma customers unfavourably in relation to non-Roma customers. An independent Commission for Protection against Discrimination, as envisaged by the law, was established in 2005 (see also Chapter 13 Social Policy and Employment).

The strategic documents and programmes on the educational integration of children from the Roma minority have not significantly changed the situation on the ground. Initiatives aimed at attracting and keeping Roma children in school (e.g. free lunches, subsidised textbooks, teacher assistants in schools with Roma students, bussing programmes) were largely unsuccessful. Although an Agency for Educational Integration of Children and Pupils from Ethnic Minorities has been established, this body has not succeeded so far in fulfilling its main function, namely the coordination of efforts made by different ministries to enhance the educational integration of children from minorities. As already outlined in the 2004 Report, a number of Roma children of mainstream mental ability still continue to be placed in special schools following poorly controlled assessments.

Many Roma continue to be excluded from access to healthcare services. A Health Strategy for Disadvantaged Members of Ethnic Minorities and an associated action plan were adopted in September 2005. The elaboration of this strategy and action plan forms an important part of the Framework Programme for Equal Integration of Roma into Bulgarian Society. Although several initiatives are ongoing with international donor support, a long-awaited National Housing Strategy for Roma has not yet been adopted.

A number of national employment programmes aimed inter alia at addressing long-term unemployment amongst Roma have continued. However, in order to increase their effectiveness, these initiatives need to be further combined with complementary measures such as family counselling and professional assistance in searching for a job.

In spite of the establishment of a new National Council for Cooperation on Ethnic and Demographic Issues, the administrative capacity of the State structure dealing with minority issues continues to be weak. The body is not yet fully operational, and it remains to be seen whether the chosen structure will provide for the powers necessary for effective minority rights protection, including enhanced political influence and staffing. In particular, attention should be paid to ensuring sufficient consultation with Roma representatives with a view to developing and implementing the State policy on the integration of Roma.

The Bulgarian authorities should demonstrate, at all levels, that the country applies a zerotolerance policy on racism against Roma or against any other minority or group and that this policy is effectively implemented.  

pdf source.


Ill-treatment in custody and prison conditions

There continue to be reports of cases of ill-treatment by law enforcement officials, including excessive use of firearms and force by the police. Reports indicate that ill-treatment of persons in custody disproportionately affects Roma. In a number of cases, investigations of complaints of police ill-treatment were not prompt, thorough and impartial.  
pdf source.


by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 12:25:44 PM EST
Thank you - you dug up information on stuff I asked about, indeed the same forms of educational discrimination exist in Bulgaria as I knew to have been reported in Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 05:43:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm glad you found it useful! Thank you for your more local perspectives too.
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Mon Apr 17th, 2006 at 09:21:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi, Alexandra, thanks for the comment!


I agree with Dodo, why are you trying to justify discrimination and racism against the Roma? It's one thing to explain the complexities of the situation in Bulgaria, I always find that makes issues more interesting and it's one of the reasons I read your diary in the first place, but it's an entirely different approach to make one blanket statement after the other about the Roma. It doesn't provide much useful information, except to tell me about the prejudices you've internalized.

Ok, I explained several times that I tried not to turn this conversation into a racist one, even after I was easily dismissed as racist. The purpose of this diary was one and one only - to discuss the point of view of most of the Bulgarians and to find a way to change the situation. And here I am, like any Bulgarian, who can't stand the part of the Roma population which are stealing, ready to discuss, and I getting only flame. You should understand that this is my valid point of view (and for most of the Bulgarians), just as your point of view is important to you.

About calling my statements (several times) "blanket statements". Do you expect me to back up every word I say with numbers? Or maybe you don't trust my words, though we see the few other Bulgarians on this thread commenting the same news items I mentioned and having similar experience with gypsies?

You quoted some of my statements:


"they don't fit in the society."

Did you read my example with Dave Chapell?


"gypsies live off social welfare because they have a lot of kids and don't pay taxes, as they are unemployed."

Yes, they are unemployed and usually have more than five kids. An average Bulgarian family has about one or two children, as it cannot afford to have more.


"They don't even pay for their electricity" (I understand there was some conflict over electricity distribution to a ghetto area but you describe it out of context and as if no Roma paid for electricity. See the EU report below for more on the discrimination by the electricity company)

It wasn't "some" problem. It is a huge problem even today. The electric distributor boxes in the ghettos are now installed on poles, about 10 meters high, so the gypsies can't get to them and illegally connect their house. It didn't work.


"government officials or representatives are afraid to go in their ghettos" (I don't doubt there is fear since you yourself are afraid but how do people get a welfare payment if they never deal with government officials?)

They have to get out of the ghetto and go to the IRS office. As soon as someone enters the ghetto, then you are under Roma law, not Bulgarian law - I mentioned the story with the axes and the policemen, I think Leader mentioned it as well, but with more detail.


Roma who live in apartment buildings "usually don't cause any trouble, because they want to be friendly with their neighbors."

It is true, it's the groupthink process, and you've read about it.


"gypsies with Bulgarian citizenship can't even speak the official language of the country"

Yes, the official language of Bulgaria is Bulgarian and everyone going to school learn to speak it (if they can't) and write in Bulgarian. I don't expect the Czech government to be concerned with their illiterate gypsies, as they don't hold Czech citizenship and are legally treated as guests.

About the unusable information from my replies - was it really that unusable, since you needed a paragraph to mention just the points from my diary, let alone those from my comments? Should I back it up with numbers? Please explain, I will try to be more clear and provide more information, though that might mean translating from Bulgarian.


but none of this tells me much about the Roma or the realities of why the ghettos you describe exist and it seems to discount the problem of discrimination against the Roma

You know that gypsies travel and live in "katuns", families which stick together, basically forming a ghetto, by joining several "katuns". The communist government fixed the territory of the ghetto and since then gypsy ghettos remained on fixed ground within most major cities. Currently no one is stopping them from leaving or abandoning the ghetto - it's their choice to be there.

About the Roma treatment in Bulgaria and how the other countries are not OK with it - what's the standpoint for Romania, where there are even more gypsies and the same attitude? How come did Hungary enter the EU, with such a horrible attitude toward gypsies?

It is true that gypsies are treated badly; what I am saying is that there are usually different documents and analyses assessing all the problems of a country about to enter the EU, discussing the differences of that state, compared to what is accepted as "normal" by the already member states. Bulgaria and Romania will enter the EU, just as Hungary did and no one is going to stop for a second, saying... "oh, we forgot how they treated the gypsies" - which is troubling. But will politicians wait for years to come, so Bulgarians and Romanians accept the gypsy culture? Will Hungary be forced to leave the EU for the treatment of the Roma population? Most likely not.

Right now it's far more horrifying, for the EU, that the Juridical branch in both Bulgaria and Romania is highly politicized, and until that is fixed, the countries won't enter the EU.

Btw, Leader mentioned a few posts down - just wait for Bulgaria and Romania to enter the European Union, and see how all the gypsies will move to the big European countries. The same will be with all the Turks, who live in Turkey, but hold a Bulgarian citizenship, as well. Germany already knows perfectly well what will happen.

Actually, I have a Moldovian friend, who is desperately trying to get a Bulgarian citizenship, because this will guarantee him free access to the EU - and this is the case with many of my East European friends.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 05:08:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Btw, Leader mentioned a few posts down - just wait for Bulgaria and Romania to enter the European Union, and see how all the gypsies will move to the big European countries. The same will be with all the Turks, who live in Turkey, but hold a Bulgarian citizenship, as well. Germany already knows perfectly well what will happen.
Wow, you sound just like the British National Party or the German NPD when they talk about Eastern Europeans.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 08:50:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

...about the BNP.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 11:58:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hahah :) Exactly, that's my image on this diary. As I said, I am not a racist, but I don't approve of the actions of the bigger part of the Roma population.

What I don't agree with, as well, is that Roma will go into the European Union with Bulgarian passports and the Western newspapers will go "Crime levels increased, because many Bulgarians pick pocket the poor Westerners, which didn't expect the shock of the East European reality." The thieving gypsies give a bad name to other gypsies, which are trying to work and pay their taxes as well!

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 12:53:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, so if that's what you're worried about, what solution do you propose? (My solution would be to pay less attention to Western right-wing tabloids)

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 12:58:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru I see we're thinking along the same lines ;)
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 01:15:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just ignore the problem?

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 05:46:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that what you think? Then what is this diary and your stern warning about hordes of Gypsy pickpockets wielding Bulgarian Passports ready to raid Western Europe all about?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 05:48:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My answer was ironic. Can you elaborate on that:


Ok, so if that's what you're worried about, what solution do you propose? (My solution would be to pay less attention to Western right-wing tabloids)


Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:15:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are raising a bogey man to scare us from the EU 15 into getting all worried about Bulgarian Gypsy pickpockets. You pretend to make us aware of an impending problem. What is your proposed solution?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:24:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Intergration of the Roma population seems a very good idea. A few posts down we have the Macedonian solution, which seems quite good.

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:05:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From what Pavlovska writes of Macedonia, it would seem civil society is in better health there than in Bulgaria, to be honest.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 04:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't exactly talk about developed civil society in both countries, but Macedonia certainly seems to be ahead on the Roma issue.

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 04:01:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Darin - a quick reply since my availability for bloging is limited these days.

As I said earlier "It's one thing to explain the complexities of the situation in Bulgaria, I always find that makes issues more interesting and it's one of the reasons I read your diary in the first place, but it's an entirely different approach to make one blanket statement after the other about the Roma."

I'm interested in a discussion if we can move it away from blanket statements that don't help us find solutions  and, despite your desire not to move the discussion in that direction, only sound like prejudices.

So what's your solution to the problems you perceive: wait for EU membership and hope the Roma leave Bulgaria and Romania and "move to big European countries"? Somehow mass migration seems quite unlikely to me despite the fears of the polish plumber invasions some Western European politicians would like voters to believe. What are your suggestions?

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 01:12:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

...despite your desire not to move the discussion in that direction, only sound like prejudices.

Of course I prejudiced, that's why I am presenting the point of view of most of the East Europeans. Did I really lead the discussion into being a racist one? I wanted to discuss cultural differences and ways to address them.

Read what pavlovska said near the end of the discussion - I like how the gypsy population is helping itself in Macedonia - they have the desire to integrate.

About "hordes" of gypsies invading Europe - my personal bet will be that about a third of the Roma population will directly move out.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:23:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The gypsy population has the desire to defend its interests, and "integrate" on their own terms as much as possible. Just like everyone else.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:25:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am presenting the point of view of most of the East Europeans.
...
my personal bet will be that about a third of the Roma population will directly move out.
Not susprisingly.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:27:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My questions remain:
What's your solutions to the problems you perceive?
What are your suggestions for improving the situation?
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 09:37:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Alexandra, I already replied several times - I don't have a solution, and that's why I raised the issue. I like the Macedonian example several posts down - integrating the Roma population seems like a really good idea, but they started integrating by their own initiative. I don't see that in Bulgaria. Maybe we must analyze what provoked the Macedonian Roma to create NGO's and schools for Roma.

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:10:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You need to chew on this, then:
Aid workers estimate that 90-95 percent of Roma in Bulgaria are chronically unemployed, hampered by illiteracy and prejudice, and the overall economic slump. There are some Roma "barons," flashy dressers in shining luxury sedans, scorned by their kin for their aloofness. And about 117 Roma non-governmental organizations distribute international aid, often to little effect. Nor are Roma political leaders setting a good example, engaged as they are in ego-polishing and personal wars.
There are about seven different problems that need to be overcome.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:16:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only seven? :) I like pavlovska's solution with the NGO's - a trend that emerged in Macedonia.

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 03:56:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am still trying to get my head around this fragment and the two paragraphs that follow:
There is a reason why gypsies are hated and the reason is their specific cultural heritage and the recent history of Bulgaria. During the communist regime, which lasted for about 45 years and ended in 1989, the gypsy community was strongly oppressed by the Todor Jivkov government.
Basically, no reason at all is given why gypsies are hated, and instead institutionalised harassment of gypsies over the 45 years of communist rule are described, as well as the fact that, when the economy crashed in the transition to capitalism, gypsies were left out of jobs and education and had to fend for themselves 'the easy way'.

Now, I would like to challenge especially the notion shared by the diarist and some commenters that petty crime is 'an easy life'. If it is so easy, why don't we all engage in it?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 07:24:42 AM EST
Because Gypsies Are Different (Or Just Their Culture, I Am Not Racist).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 08:10:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am totally willing to accept that the root of the Gypsy problem is the tension between a nomadic and a sedentary culture sharing the same space. What I find nothing short of amazing is that Europe is still grappling with the issue in 2006, at least 600 years after gypsies first set foot on the continent.

There is "a Gypsy problem" but it's not Gypsies that are the problem.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 08:16:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting indeed. Do you see such a problem with black people anymore? And they arrived (actually "were arrived") after the gypsies.

Are most Europeans racists only when it comes to gypsies?

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 05:52:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can tell you there is quite some racism in Spain against all immigrants, but for a long time we could be in denial about it because Spain had no immigrants, and Gypsies, well, we're not racist, but the Gypsies are just a speacial breed of bad, bad people, aren't they?

It was the very insidious racism against Gypsies that made me not be surprised at all when recism against Eastern Europeans, Latin Americans, north Africans, black Africans and East Asians became more visible in Spain.

Look I am not a gypsy and I don't know any personally, but I can tell you that for the longest time the official position towards gypsies was that gypsies were not a separate ethnic group, but just Spaniards who had chosen to dress differently, speak differently, and have a different lifestyle. This is actually wrong: gypsies are a distinct people with a distinct language, culture and a nomadic lifestyle.

When a sedentary community's reaction to nomads is to enact vagrancy laws, you have a problem. You also have a problem when  society's idea of accomodating nomads is to offer them a house and a plot of land. On the other hand, a lot of Spanish gypsies are settled and have been for a long time, especially in the South, but segregation is quite real, and tensions between gypsy and non-gypsy neighbourhoods do occasionally flare up.

And to pretend there is no "problem with black people anymore" is an exaggeration, quite apart of the fact that the "problem with black people" was entirely about white people.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:07:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree on all points. As you say some are actually settled in and don't travel around the country - so why would they refuse a house and land (at least this happened in Bulgaria, they refused to work the land the government offered them).


And to pretend there is no "problem with black people anymore" is an exaggeration, quite apart of the fact that the "problem with black people" was entirely about white people.

Very well said, Migeru. It's about what the majority define as "normal" - in this case the cultural differences between the majority and the gypsy minority are too big and they get out of the predefined "normal".

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:19:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I gave no reason why they are hated, because I don't know why (I speculated it was because of a combination of history and culture conflicts). I wanted to have a discussion on exactly that, not throwing "racist" at each other, because it is so much easier.

On your second point - you consider petty thefts to be harder than working all day?

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 05:55:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You think a life of petty crime, living on the run, ans constant run-ins with the police is easier than a job? It wouldn't be for me, that's for sure.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:09:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the cultural difference I am talking about!

Oh, btw, Bulgarian gypsies are not exactly nomads, in the sense that they don't move around the country - they prefer to stay in their ghettos.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:12:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After decades of the government forcing them to stay in ghettos you'd think they would make the ghettos "theirs", wouldn't you? And seeing the attitude of the students in the American University, I'm not surprised if they actually prefer to stay in the ghetto.

I mean, why are they in the ghetto in the first place?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:16:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru, come on, now the university will get a bad name for supposedly promoting racism? That's absurd, I am actually open about this issue, just as my colleagues, and we want to discuss it. You won't see that with students from other universities in Bulgaria, it's simply not an issue (i.e. it's ignored, "gypsies are gypsies and that's that").

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:25:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My apologies: I did not mean to say the university promotes racism, but that attitudes can only be worse outside of the university, and I have seen plenty of "gypsies are gypsies and that's that" on this thread, too.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:34:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Knowing that they are hated but not knowing why is exactly what entrenched racism is about. Then we go and we rationalize our culture's racism with anecdotal evidence. That does not mean we're racist, but...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:12:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You want facts and real aguments? Fine, here are some facts:

The majority of severe crimes in Bulgaria (rapes, burglaries, murders) are commited by gypsies. That has been confirmed many times.

Gypsies in a specific area had not paid their electricity bills for years (about 5 or more). When their electricity was cut off, they protested! So... they should receives services without paying for them? They are priviliged in some way?

Gypsies had refused jobs, arable land, and food many times. They always want money. Most often that money is used to buy alcohol or drugs. And when they realize that they have nothing left for food and clothes, they either start begging... or stealing.

A real quote from a gypsy man who refused arable land: "This is not our way. Plant it, water it, wait for it to grow, then harvest... This is not the gypsy way. I would rather live on what I am able to steal today." A real quote... and  am sure that that guy was not the only one to think that way.

Gypsies are allowed to go to school together with any other Bulgarian children. Do they go to school? NO. Only of few of their children are sent to study - the others are sent to beg on the streets, or pick people's pockets.

Stealing from people's pockets is an old gypsy tradition here. Many of the girls who are specially trained for that "job" by their families have several fingers removed so that they can do it more easily.

There are very ve few gypsies who have actually expressed the will to improve their life conditions. The rest - they just complain and stick to their old ways: begging and stealing.

Gypsy women have confessed that they give birth to many children for the sole reason of receiving more financial support from the state. At the same time, Bulgarians work like slaves to raise their single children and ensure some kind of decent future for them.

It is absolutely normal that we consider Bulgarians' good living to be more iportant than gypsies' - after all this is Bulgaria, not Gypsylandia!

And please... do not come up with the "read more" argument. I have read enough, and I know that gypsies all over the world are different. And it seems that the Bulgarian gypsies are some kind of bad breed. We can't do anything about it.

Bulgarians did not cause gypsies' hardships. They caused it to themselves. And only their own will to change for the better and become civilized can lead to improvement of their lives and happiness for everyone.

by Gatekeeper on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 06:59:02 PM EST
Darin, I can see that there is an accumulated animosity towards the roma minority in your diary, and what I found even more surprising is that these sentiments are shared by many other Bulgarians. Macedonia as well has a sizable Roma minority, and their economic situation is no better than in the other Balkan countries, but I can with certainty claim that their political situation is lot better. Currently there are two Roma political parties in Macedonia, and the mere fact that there is a political outlet where this minority can channel their needs and demands is helping in the improvement of their situation.
The number of Roma NGOs (not NGOs run by Macedonians, but NGOs run by Roma citizens is constantly increasing). They have elementary schools in their own language and couple of TV stations.
I believe that the political representation and their promotion into the civil society, as well as the right of education in their mother tongue can solve many of the problems that Bulgaria has regarding the roma minority.
So as long as the Romas are not given political representation you can't expect that things will turn better overnight, you can't expect them to realize by themselves the importance of education and political involvement. AND certainly you can't expect them to get involve in the Bulgarian political system if that system is not designed to accommodate their needs.
Just as an example, the percentage of Bulgarian students at the American University in Bulgaria is over 50, yet is there a single Bulgarian Roma studying here?
I know of one, (Memet who is from the same city as me) and yet the percentage of Macedonians studying here is not more than 5%.
by pavlovska (transbluency(at)mailcity.com) on Tue Apr 18th, 2006 at 10:48:53 PM EST
I see you are a fellow student from the American University, so I am glad to have you posting on my diary!

pavlovska, let me congratulate you on the first post in this diary, which is actually proposing a solution :)

There are small Roma parties in Bulgaria, but they are part of the MFR (the Movement for Freedoms and Rights), which is basically representing the Turk population. I see that the situation we are discussing here is better addressed in Macedonia, which is excellent. Do you have any idea what provoked the Roma to start creating NGO's to help the Roma population?

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:10:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe the MFR is not representing the Turks but minorities? At least the Roma seem to be comfortable inside it? And, given that there are Roma parties in the MFM coalition, are there actually any Roma members of parliament?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:20:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's widely accepted as the Turks party - the name is only there so it gets registered (Article 11 prohibits the creation of ethnically based parties). Roma are comfortable inside it, because of political and economic reasons.

Political reasons - they would never get representated in Parliament, unless they enter a coaltion with another party, the logical choice in this case being the MFR.

Economic reasons - with power comes money - and the MFR was one of the most influential parties on the last elections (I think they were first or second by number of votes).

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:29:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't you think there is a problem when the 10% minority of Turks and the 5% minority of Roma have to organize themselves into constitutionally forbidden ethnic parties? And this is a problem that the 85% of ethnic Bulgarians need to take the initiative to solve. Encouraging the minorities to emigrate after EU accession  seems to fit the bill, doesn't it?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:34:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually the Bulgarian population was decreasing during the last 15 years and it would be far better to integrate the Roma, than to encourage them to leave.

And there is nothing wrong with the constitution, it forbids ethnic separation of everyone holding a Bulgarian passport. The idea is to have parties focusing on political ideologies (and Turks, Roma and Bulgarians can be part of the party), not ethnic agenda.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:46:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, what has Bulgaria done since the fall of communism to reverse the ethnic separation of Bulgarian Gypsies through ghettoization? Not much, it seems:
the gypsy community was strongly oppressed by the Todor Jivkov government. A good example of the time would be the city of Burgas, situated on the Black Sea coast. Gypsies were forced to live in ghettos located near the skirts of the cities and were used for low qualified jobs. At a certain point, gypsies were "encouraged" by the police (then "Milicia") not to leave their ghetto and enter the city as rarely as possible. Every morning several trucks would transport the gypsies in town, before anyone was awake, so they can clean the city, and then transport them back before they could disturb anyone. The Milicia were not very fond of gypsies either - any situation would be dealt with by starting with the individuals with the darkest complexion. It is important to note, that during those years, as well as today, all Bulgarian citizens (everyone with a Bulgarian residence - Bulgarians, Turks and gypsies) were legally required to go to grade school.

Then the communist regime fell and oppressed gypsies, whose jobs were assured by the communist government, were left unemployed and uneducated.
...

Aid workers estimate that 90-95 percent of Roma in Bulgaria are chronically unemployed, hampered by illiteracy and prejudice, and the overall economic slump.


By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 07:00:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually Roma get benefits that Bulgarian don't. No Bulgarian was offered land for free, no Bulgarian can enter a university so easily and for such low taxes. The problem is that I don't see many gypsies taking advantage of the offers.

Interestingly enough, during communist time, there were houses built especially for the Roma (near the town of Rousse). They were quickly disassembled by the Roma, who took everything back to their houses in the ghetto.

So, would you say there is imposed "ghettoization"? I wouldn't. Would you say the Roma want to be part of the society? I wouldn't.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:34:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fair enough.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:35:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...no Bulgarian can enter a university so easily and for such low taxes. The problem is that I don't see many gypsies taking advantage of the offers.

Well, as most of them were shoved off to special schools, a form of discrimination thematised repeatedly both my me and Alexandra, this opportunity is none to most, so you shouldn't be surprised.

Facing contempt on a daily basis is another strong factor you seem to not even think of. This really seems a personal experience thing - those who got a taste of it themselves (like me and hitchhiker) do have a picture of what it means, those who didn't can continue to cling to illusions that everyone would have the same opportunities if only they tried.

Interestingly enough, during communist time, there were houses built especially for the Roma (near the town of Rousse).

This (and similar projects by the other 'communist' governments elsewhere) was not much of an intent at integration by the State, more like herding people like guinea pigs into cleaner, brighter ghettos (and tearing up family ties in the process). A later form of this, after 1989, was that some majors tried to segregate poor Romas living in social housing in their towns by building houses for them isolated somewhere outside of town, and then issued an eviction order.

What should be done instead? Some NGOs give help to Romas to renovate or build homes on their own.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 07:18:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, as most of them were shoved off to special schools, a form of discrimination thematised repeatedly both my me and Alexandra

qika PR just posted a great diary thematising this in greater detail - everyone check it out!

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 05:06:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for adding an announcement here! I would not have picked up on this story having been offline for the past few days. For anyone else interested here is the direct link: http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2006/4/20/143827/618
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 05:00:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I found an interesting piece that gives more information on the Macedonia case: "Shayna Plaut: Communication Patterns between Romani Media and NGOs in Macedonia". The www.rrommedia.net site also has links to key roma organizations that have a presence online.
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:31:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am always glad when I see your comment. You always make an extra research on each topic you comment on and I really appreciate that.  
I've checked the report you have put as a link in your comment and it describes the situation in Macedonia very accurately.


(.... There is, however, a severe gap between how Romani media envisions itself, and what the programming scheme actually shows. Roma media is heavily dependent on music/entertainment as opposed to the staff intensive field of news, interviews, and investigative reporting. When examining BTR's current programming scheme, aside from 85 minutes of daily news, the rest of the programming is exclusively music videos and films. Although this may be an extreme example, it is also quite telling considering that the station was founded and runs on the mission of "educating our Roma people". (Dimov pc: 5 September 2003). Two thirds of the Roma media (MRTV and Shutel being the sole exceptions) spend at least 2/3 of their time on the air playing music; these figures do not include the computer-generated night music broadcast.)

This is quite true. Most of the time the Roma media is broadcasting some comic shows, films and lots of music.

Yet, I have to mention a trend that I have recently noticed on the Roma's TV stations (Shutel TV in particular). As of recently some of the major Roma TV stations started to air programs with more educational character. As for example last week I saw one show broadcasted on Shutel TV (roma TV station) where there were several Macedonian and several Roma teenagers engaged in a discussion on a very popular issue- the discrimination in the society. Then, I also saw one program directed to the youngest Roma audience which had the purpose to teach them to write, and the show was done in a very funny way, so no child can resist watching it. Even I regularly watch it. I also saw many documentaries which were synchronized in Roma language.
 So, this is positive step forward, though very limited, as there are only Shutel TV and the national TV station MRTV that broadcast this kind of programs.

by pavlovska (transbluency(at)mailcity.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 07:18:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"I am always glad when I see your comment. You always make an extra research on each topic you comment on and I really appreciate that."

I'm blushing ;-)

Thank you for your comments and insights! The TV program changes you describe are promissing. I would imagine that the more educational and, especially for  children, educational & funny! programming may be more expensive to put together than music, films etc.. so perhaps TV stations have to grow to a certain size to be able to develop and provide that type of programming. The Bulgarian TVRoma, at least as described on their web site, seems to have a more community based approach with call in discussion shows as perhaps a more low budget way of doing some educational programming but it seems they are only on the air a few hours every day and trying to grow with the help of grant funding.

I quoted this earlier but it's relevant here too:


The development of the Roma TV Program Concept has so far been defined by audience interests and by the availability of resources - financial, technical and professional skills. During the first two years the major pAt the end of 2001 and the beginning of 2002 (after the introduction of modern equipment) a three-hour daily program was launched (four-hours during the weekend). We also produce a special show for the big holidays, such as New Year, Vasilovden and others. Every day we produce an average of one and a half to two hours of news and author shows or topical shows, with direct phone participation by the neighborhood audience. In addition we have two hours of educational, entertainment, children's and musical shows. The main topics of our programs are relevant local issues, including the Roma cultural heritage that aims to raise the self-esteem of the Roma people. The daily news includes 3 to 5 reports; the production quality has improved considerably according to our audience as well as by colleagues from other stations in the region.  

Because of the limited financial resources the programs of Roma TV has the look of neighborhood television, with elements of a regional program for the municipality of Vidin. We need more resources if we are going to enter in the national television market.

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 11:06:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Darin, I've thought what might be an incentive for the Roma to become more actively engaged in the civil life and I can't clearly say what it is, because there are multiple factors that can be in game.

Macedonia is probably a best example of a country with the largest number of NGOs per capita and paradoxically with not so developed civil sector. However, among so many NGOs currently operating at the territory of Macedonia some of them have proven to be very successful in the promotion of the improvement of Roma's life by providing legal help, education, awareness campaigns, financial aid and so on. For example when I asked my friend Memet how he found out about this university (AUBG) and how he got the scholarship to study here his response was that the information and the scholarship were provided by Roma NGOs.

There are few Roma political parties but they haven't been very successful as the NGOs, mainly because the NGOs are giving direct help to Romas. There are some NGOs which have their own daily shelters for young Romas, where they have Roma schoolteachers who try to engage the street children in different activities like teaching them to read, reading them stories, showing them cartoons in roma language, than playing with them and giving them food and clothing, so these children start coming there more often because that place is more fun than begging on the streets. Apparently, this is carrot and stick game but it has proven to be successful.

I have few friends who work in the nongovernmental sector and some of them have been involved in some projects for the Roma minorities. Some of the projects included workshops and awareness campaign where Romas are given advices of how they can benefit by becoming involved in the civil society, how to set up their own NGO, how to make projects how to apply to different international organization for financial assistance and raise funds.  So, this kind of workshops and seminars might have helped to the spread of the information and might have been interesting and promising to certain Romas to undertake such activity on their own. And, once one group starts the process than it is very likely that others will follow.

Still, I must say that there is a huge segmentation between the Romas themselves, which has prevented their integration in the society. Some of them are living on the fringes of the society with no interest whatsoever in any kind of activity and others becoming more aware of the benefits they can get by becoming more active and thus are becoming very active.

by pavlovska (transbluency(at)mailcity.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 06:25:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent comment, pavlovska :) Ok, then, if the Bulgarian government invests in a couple of NGO's maybe this will create an avalanche effect and will allow the Roma to create more organizations and help themselves - after all, who knows best how to help the Roma, but themselves (as is the case in Macedonia).

I believe in time all Roma will integrate in the society, even the ones that refuse to, because of the segmentation you mentioned. In fact, I think the time to act is now, because there are only one or two years before we join the European Union and the Roma population has the option to leave the country.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 03:55:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, I didn't really understand what you mean when you say that the Roma population has the option to leave the country.
Does that suppose to mean integrate or leave?
Not very good idea.
by pavlovska (transbluency(at)mailcity.com) on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 05:14:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This time I have to come to darin's rescue. I think he meant free motion of EU citizens across borders, and that the EU wouldn't want Bulgaria to join if due to bad integration, masses of Roma would move West. (Where I have to note in darin's direction that free movement is valid only inside the Schengen zone, plus temporary delays may be enacted in old member states.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 05:55:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Misunderstanding. Thank you for explaining me this.

Well, then Bulgaria's accession to EU might be ideal not just for the Bulgarians but for the Romas as well.

by pavlovska (transbluency(at)mailcity.com) on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 07:23:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If the (decision-making) EU officials are sufficiently aware of the issue and won't sweep it under the rug - as, unfortunately, they mostly did in the previous round (e.g. the same issue in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Apr 21st, 2006 at 04:31:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know if the issue with minorities is mentioned as a problem for Bulgaria or Romania.
And the EU officials might not be sufficiently aware for the existence of this problem because the Roma are not very vocal in demanding their rights.
So, let's just hope that things will turn on better somehow, someday.
by pavlovska (transbluency(at)mailcity.com) on Fri Apr 21st, 2006 at 07:04:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe someone commented that there are reports on the Roma for the EU, it should be a few posts up.

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Fri Apr 21st, 2006 at 12:36:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, Alexandra posted it.

But (I tell this in reply to pavlovska) I meant to distinguish decisionmakers: it may well be that a bunch of European Parliament members and a number of bureaucrats working in the accession offices are fully aware of the issues involved, but the decisions will be made by higher-ups who don't read their reports and have other priorities.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Apr 21st, 2006 at 12:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is the information I posted earlier:
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2006/4/13/14453/5466/#54

As Dodo mentioned the issue is whether this knowledge is used in decision making. In the meantime it does shine a light on the situation in Bulgaria and Romania (there is a similar report for Romania).

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 04:51:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I need to again stress out that I don't really claim that the Romas have integrated in the Macedonian society, but certainly there is a progress.
Among the other factors that might have been influential for the improvement of the Roma's situation, and which I've forgotten to mention, is the war conflict in Macedonia.

It might be that the recent ethnic conflict in Macedonia between the Albanians and Macedonians brought the issue of the respect of minority's rights not just to Albanians but to Roma's as well. I don't know how it is in other multiethnic societies, i.e. if there is ethnic tension between different minority and majority groups and if there is a tendency between different minority groups to stick together or not, but during the war in Macedonia it seemed that the Romas and Macedonians were more close together than Albanians and Romas. Probably that was because most of the Romas speak Macedonian and not Albanian.

This is my personal conclusion because I've read and heard of incidents between the Romas and the Albanians, and the news on some of the Roma TV stations during the war conflict more often resembled to the news of the Macedonian TV stations.
Also, most of the Roma political parties tend to form coalitions with Macedonian parties than with Albanians. So this also can be a reason why it's been more easy and unproblematic to accept the Romas. In addition, the Romas have never been very vocal about their minority rights, and it was obvious that they were the most deprived group in the society, so this might have been a reason plus for people to become more engaged into improving their situation.
Though as I said, the things have just started to get better, many other things regarding the Roma's situation need to be addressed.

by pavlovska (transbluency(at)mailcity.com) on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 05:38:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A more brutal parallel is Kosovo, where KLA off-shoots also hunted away Romas, accusing them of alliance with the Serbs.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 05:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There was this case when more than 700 Romas were expelled from Kosovo after the end of the Kosovo war . They came in Macedonia and as there were no shelters left they continued towards Greece. The Greeks did not let them go on their territory (and the Greeks are renowned for not being able to deal with any of their minorities), so they ended up wandering on Macedonian territory.

In Macedonia there are no Romas that live by the roads in camps, and almost all of them have some kind of a house, very miserable though, and this was the first case to see wandering Romas in Macedonia. Macedonia was very criticized for not being able to find them accommodation.
Fair enough, these people apparently needed support.

Yet, by then a country of 2 milion people had received over  200,000 refugees and the already fragile economy was overburdened with huge expenses for supporting the newly arrived refugees.
I don't know how the whole situation with the Roma ended up, but I remember that it was a huge scandal. And, I found it really scandalous that no one criticized Kosovo or Greece, for it but only Macedonia ended up being harshly criticized.

by pavlovska (transbluency(at)mailcity.com) on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 07:19:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose Macedonia was expected to take care of the gypsies, after allowing them entry. I doubt Greece was criticized for forbidding them entry, as much as Macedonia for not pouring a lot of money to solve the problem, right?

Be careful! Is it classified?
by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Fri Apr 21st, 2006 at 12:34:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are right, Macedonia was expected to take care of those people. Yet during the war shelters were either offered by different families, were built up or different hotels and student dormitories were used as shelters. So, by the end of the war everything was crowded, and it took a year or even more for most of the refugees to return in their countries, and some never did, and this caused a problem when there were new who arrived.

It was also financially unsustainable.By the end of the war the only financial assistance that came from abroad were huge containers with water from USA, and all the rest was supposed to be provided by macedonia.

Still, as you said Macedonia accepted them and then it was supposed to help them, but I am not sure if they legally passed the border or not. Unlike the border between Macedonia and Bulgaria and Macedonia and Greece, the borders with Kosovo on the north and Albania on the west are very porous and not well protected. And in particularly during the war most of people fleeing from Kosovo were let pass the border, without taking in consideration if they have where to stay or not. And even during the ethnic conflict in Macedonia most of the weapon smuggled in Macedonia came from Kosovo, because the borders were not very controlled.

I also remember that there were appeals by some of those Romas for different European countries to take several families under their protection but their calls availed them nothing. So, the international community was very willing to criticise but not very willing to offer any help.

by pavlovska (transbluency(at)mailcity.com) on Fri Apr 21st, 2006 at 02:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some of the projects included workshops and awareness campaign where Romas are given advices of how they can benefit by becoming involved in the civil society, how to set up their own NGO, how to make projects how to apply to different international organization for financial assistance and raise funds.  So, this kind of workshops and seminars might have helped to the spread of the information and might have been interesting and promising to certain Romas to undertake such activity on their own.

This seems to me like a very interesting approach. I had already noticed that several of the initiatives I looked at where grant funded by foundations. I went back and took a closer look at the Macedonia Romani NGO study:


Romani NGOs can be found throughout Macedonia with the bulk of the active NGOs based in Skopje. Very few of the NGOs could supply reliable data regarding the size of their client base however on average they served 245 people annually. Over 32 donors were supporting the ten NGOs interviewed with the majority receiving funding from both international and national donors. The most frequently mentioned international donors were OSCE, UNHCR and OSI-Budapest; national donors were Soros-Macedonia, MCIC and ECMI. Only Luludi (Skopje) received governmental support. All Romani NGOs supplied project proposals including annual reports and most were willing to make such reports public.
Source: http://www.rrommedia.net/english/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=38&Itemid=29

and at some of the Bulgarian TVRoma funding:


At the end of 2001 as a result of a grant from the Media Program of the Open Society Institute in Budapest, Roma TV bought in modern technical equipment. Training accompanied the equipment grant. As a result the technical resources of Roma TV are equal to those of the other cable stations in the region. Now TV Roma has production capability suitable for quality programs and distribution at the local and national level.web site

It reminds me a bit (this is a gross over simplification I know) of the way  regions in France gained a certain amount of "autonomy" to implement their own plans by being able to get European Union funding for initiatives and not having the French administration in Paris be the only source of project funding.

I noticed, for example, that the Soros foundation has a Roma Participation Program grant specifically designed to fund Roma initiatives and the European Commission has an internship program for young Roma university graduates  from all new EU member states (excluding Cyprus and Malta), Bulgaria, Croatia, Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Romania, Serbia and Montenegro (including Kosovo), and Turkey.

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 11:05:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Soros, though the most corrupted institution in Macedonia, has helped considerably to the development of the Roma's nongovernmental sector. Yet what I've heard of Memet (I've mentioned him in some of the previous posts) is that he was not able to get scholarship from Soros although he applied as a Roma citizen and was the only one to apply. So he contacted some Roma NGO, i think the name of the NGO was Roma Veritas, who got him a scholarship from Soros Foundation  (Open Society Institute) in Budapest. I don't know how the process really went, but it was surprising that he was turned down by the Macedonian Soros, as I believe he was probably the only Roma applying for a scholarship.
by pavlovska (transbluency(at)mailcity.com) on Thu Apr 20th, 2006 at 02:53:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you for moving the discussion in the direction of concrete solutions and initiatives!

As for Bulgaria, in addition to the political participation in the MFR (the Movement for Freedoms and Rights) which Darin reports below it also seems there is also a small Roma media presence in Bulgaria including TVRoma (more on that in the boxquote below). For a list of periodicals which regularly publish articles about Roma (including several based in Bulgaria): http://www.osi.hu/rpp/biblio/roma2_2.html

Looking at the staff of the European Roma Rights Center, just as an example, it's also clear that Bulgarians are actively involved in efforts to improve the situation:


Executive Director
Dimitrina Petrova (Bulgaria) is the Executive Director of the ERRC. She is a philosopher and human rights advocate. She was chair of the Human Rights Project (Sofia), a Bulgarian group defending the rights of Roma, a Member of Parliament, and a professor of Philosophy of Law and other courses in Bulgaria and other countries. She received the American Bar Association's Human Rights Award in 1994.

Staff include:
Savelina Danova Russinova is Research and Policy Coordinator. She has a Masters degree in English Philology from the Sofia University, Bulgaria, and is an MA candidate in Human Rights from the Central European University in Budapest. Previously, she was the Director of the Sofia-based Roma rights organisation Human Rights Project.

Toni Tashev is Community and Litigation Development Officer. He holds a Master degree in Law from the Sofia University, Bulgaria, and a diploma for Professional Qualification in Political Management from the Balkans school of politics, Bulgaria. He also completed an International program in NGO Management, Advocacy and Public Campaign Facilitation at the International Peoples`College in Helzingor, Denmark. Since 1995 he has been involved in Romani issues, mainly in activities related to protection of human rights and non-discrimination, advocacy campaigns and community development. Previously, he was an International Advocacy and Legal Adviser of the ERRC. He was also the Legal Director and later the Executive Director of the Sofia-based Roma rights organisation Human Rights Project, an external lecturer in Human Rights and Conflict Resolution at the National Police Academy, Bulgaria, a Project Manager and Policy Coordinator of the Development of Initiatives for Local Alternatives Foundation (DILAF), Bulgaria.


  Mission of TV Roma:

The creators of TV Roma believe that is vital for Roma community to have a media presence, to advance the integration and emancipation of the Roma community. The development of Roma TV is guided by the social purpose of creating a voice and a media home for the Roma community and the other ethnic and cultural minorities. We believe in the need for intercultural communication between the majority and the minorities, a place for dialogue and mutual understanding of the ethnic groups in Bulgaria.

  Audience and distribution:

The program is being distributed in Nov Put, the biggest Roma neighborhood in Vidin, with a population of about 17,000 people, as well is in towns around Vidin, such as Dunavtzi. Individual shows have been provided for distribution to cable operators in the rest of Vidin. Roma TV started in 1998 with a total of 150 subscribers, In 2000 we had 250 subscribers. Currently there are 100 regular subscribers paying their fees, due to the fact that the entire region is suffering a serious depression with high unemployment. The economic situation of the Roma people in Vidin has deteriorated in the last couple of years. Actually the program of TV Roma is watched from the whole neighborhood.30 % of the audience are the families and the relatives of the regular subscribers and there are 70 % of people who have connected illegally to the station.

The development of the Roma TV Program Concept has so far been defined by audience interests and by the availability of resources - financial, technical and professional skills. During the first two years the major pAt the end of 2001 and the beginning of 2002 (after the introduction of modern equipment) a three-hour daily program was launched (four-hours during the weekend). We also produce a special show for the big holidays, such as New Year, Vasilovden and others. Every day we produce an average of one and a half to two hours of news and author shows or topical shows, with direct phone participation by the neighborhood audience. In addition we have two hours of educational, entertainment, children's and musical shows. The main topics of our programs are relevant local issues, including the Roma cultural heritage that aims to raise the self-esteem of the Roma people. The daily news includes 3 to 5 reports; the production quality has improved considerably according to our audience as well as by colleagues from other stations in the region.  

Because of the limited financial resources the programs of Roma TV has the look of neighborhood television, with elements of a regional program for the municipality of Vidin. We need more resources if we are going to enter in the national television market.

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:30:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent research, Alexandra, I am not sure, but I have heard about RomaTV.

Actually, while browsing the RomaTV website, I stumbled upon something funny:


 The program is being distributed in Nov Put, the biggest Roma neighborhood in Vidin, with a population of about 17,000 people, as well is in towns around Vidin, such as Dunavtzi... Roma TV started in 1998 with a total of 150 subscribers, In 2000 we had 250 subscribers. Currently there are 100 regular subscribers paying their fees, due to the fact that the entire region is suffering a serious depression with high unemployment. The economic situation of the Roma people in Vidin has deteriorated in the last couple of years. Actually the program of TV Roma is watched from the whole neighborhood. 30% of the audience are the families and the relatives of the regular subscribers and there are 70 % of people who have connected illegally to the station.

A good example of Roma giving bad image to other Roma.

But I am actually impressed by the initiative.

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 11:46:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just a note - I already quoted the section you quote. To me it's more about unemployment and poverty than a bad image.

I agree TVRoma seems like an important initiative worth supporting. I'd like to know more about it.

I just wish you had done some of this research yourself earlier it's not that hard to find with a few key stokes and google.

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 12:17:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cable TV costs about 7-15 leva a month, which is usually a priority expense for most families.

About the research - I knew there were Roma organizations, so surely they provide some public service; this however doesn't reflect the argument of this diary (the cultural difference and attitude towards gypsies), but the solution of the problem (which is no way less important).

Be careful! Is it classified?

by darin (dkaloyanov[at]gmail.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 01:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They have elementary schools in their own language and couple of TV stations.

This reminds me to note two smaller signs of change for the better in Hungary, too: both of them media that had favorble effect. One is Rádió C (C for cigány = Gypsy), a radio station mainly airing music, which proved a surprise success (e.g. it has a lot of non-Gypsie listeners). Another is that not all talent shows are evil (even if they are crappy): in the one titled Megasztár on a Hungarian TV channel, the second season was won by a Gypsy boy with a great voice (but crappy taste in music IMO), and as the show also followed the participants outside the studio, millions learnt to know a Gyspy life contrary to their stereotypes via their TV screens.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 01:17:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The similar story happened in Macedonia as well. There is this extra popular M2 multitalent show, which probably has a similar concept to the one you are mentioning -Megasztar. Teenagers are singing, dancing or performing something and some of them get to be chosen to be megastars.
 So, at this moment there are two roma teenagers who -thanks to their well practised Michael Jackson dance moves- managed to become very popular. And there is also this trend among the Macedonian pop stars to call roma dancers to perform with them.

This is very important in multicultural societies, where different ethnic groups have their own favourite pop singers or actors which are mainly from their ethnic group. I have noticed that even this kind of crappy shows can bring cohesiveness among different ethnic groups, because they don't focus on ethnicity but on the abilities that these teenagers possess.

by pavlovska (transbluency(at)mailcity.com) on Wed Apr 19th, 2006 at 07:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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