Class

by wchurchill Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 04:42:43 AM EST

I have really struggled with our recent discussions on this subject of class. I'm not suggesting the discusions have been wrong, by any means, but just trying to absorb them into my own way of thinking. Class in my background seems to have a couple of potential definitions. One, as I grew up, was kind of a snooty one, I went on scholarship to a somewhat highbrow private college, and i did have two feelings about class--one was a confusion, maybe inferiority, toward others that clearly came from the high brow backgrounds. Eastern backgrounds, private high schools, their manners were different (i guess better) than mine. I made a number of social mistakes in my first few months, being a naive midwestern kid. And now looking back, I was a lower middle class kid, that just didn't understand a lot of these dress, etc. issues. so I guess in the British-like view of class, I was a lower middle class kid.

On the monetary level, I was definitely a lower class kid--scholarships and loans, etc.

I mention this only in the sense of trying to relate to what class really is. Should we define ourselves by definitions of class, like how good our high schools were, how good our manners are, how rich our parents are, or how rich we have now become?

Moving to a spiritual view of this idea of class, obviously Jesus would not have accepted the above definitions.

Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head

The rich man provide his house, but the poor woman gave much more. Said another way, the meek shall inherit the earth.

The Tao Te Ching;

Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power.
If you realise that you have enough,
you are truly rich.
If you stay in the center
and embrace death with your whole heart,
you will endure forever.

Our recent discussions on class seem to focus on annual income per capita. But does that make sense? As I look back on the people I grew up with, one dimension is how much money all of us made, but it's just a dimension. Some are artists (poets, musicians, and writers), some are business people, some are preachers, some are doctors, some are housewives and husbands, some are,,,,, Most are grandparents,,,etc, etc. etc. Somehow this concept of class that we are discussing didn't really have much importance.

Class | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Class (4.00 / 5)

I'm probably a lot like you, w.c.,...I grew up with a lot of advantages in California, that I really didn't know I had, but would if I had lived in other areas that were more working class or poor (even though I was raised much of the time by a single mom, who worked at the post office to care for us, it was in a good area). But as you grow older and move around, you become more aware of it...in the States anyway, as I can't say how it has been here in Europe...and more acutely so, when I started running mental health programs in inner city San Francisco. Then you start to see the desparities of class, race, wealth, health, cultural difference, etc. Not an easy realization to have...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 06:12:57 AM EST

Re: Class (4.00 / 3)

It is important to critically review one's own life history looking for where, apart from hard work or good fortune, one benefitted from race or class privilege.

Robert Jensen has written eloquently on white privilege:
WHITE PRIVILEGE SHAPES THE U.S. (1998)

But, all that said, I know I did not get where I am by merit alone. I benefited from, among other things, white privilege. That doesn't mean that I don't deserve my job, or that if I weren't white I would never have gotten the job. It means simply that all through my life, I have soaked up benefits for being white. I grew up in fertile farm country taken by force from non-white indigenous people. I was educated in a well-funded, virtually all-white public school system in which I learned that white people like me made this country great. There I also was taught a variety of skills, including how to take standardized tests written by and for white people.

More thoughts on why system of white privilege is wrong (1999)

So, I don't feel guilty about being white in a white supremacist society, but I feel an especially strong moral obligation to engage in collective political activity to try to change the society because I benefit from the injustice. I try to be reflective and accountable, though I am human and I make mistakes. I think a lot about how I may be expressing racism unconsciously, but I don't lay awake at night feeling guilty. Guilt is not a particularly productive emotion, and I don't wallow in it.

Race Stories: The Heart of Whiteness (2005)

There are two different stories I could tell about myself. Which is true?
Story #1
I was born in a small city in North Dakota, to parents in the lower middle-class who eventually scratched their way to a comfortable middle-class life through hard work. I never went hungry and always had a roof over my head, but I was expected to work, and I did. >From the time I started shoveling snow as a kid, to part-time and summer jobs, through my professional career, I worked hard. From the time I was old enough to hold a steady job, I have held one. I was a conscientious student who studied hard and took school seriously. I went to college and did fairly well, taking a year off in the middle to work full-time. After graduation I worked as a journalist, in non-glamorous jobs for modest wages, working hard to learn a craft. I went on to get a master's degree and returned to work before eventually pursuing a doctorate so I could teach at the university level. I got a job at a major university and worked hard to get tenure. I'm still there today, still working hard.
Story #2
I was born in a small city in North Dakota, to white parents in the lower middle-class who eventually scratched their way to a comfortable middle-class life through hard work. The city I grew up in was almost all white. It was white because the indigenous population that once lived there was either exterminated or pushed onto reservations. It was extremely cold in the winter there, which was okay, people would joke, because it "kept the riff-raff out." It was understood that riff-raff meant people who weren't willing to work hard, or non-white people. The assumption was there was considerable overlap in the two groups.
I was educated in a well-funded and virtually all-white school system, where I was taught a variety of skills, including how to take standardized tests written by and for white people. In those schools my accomplishments were applauded and could be seen as part of a long line of accomplishments of people who looked like me. I mostly studied the history of people who look like me. Indigenous people were mostly a footnote.
I worked in part-time and summer jobs for which I was hired by other white people. One of those jobs was in a warehouse owned by a white man with whom my father did business. In that warehouse, we sometimes hired day labor to help us unload trucks. One of the adult men we hired was Indian. His name was Dave. We called him "Indian Dave." I, along with other white teenage boys working there, called him Indian Dave. We didn't give it a second thought.
I went to college in mostly white institutions. I had mostly white professors. I graduated and got jobs. In every job I have ever had, I was interviewed by a white person. Every boss I have ever had (until my current supervisor, who was hired three years ago) has been white. I was hired for my current teaching position at the predominantly white University of Texas, which had a white president, in a college headed by a white dean, and in a department with a white chairman that at the time had one non-white tenured professor.
I have made many mistakes in my life. But to the best of my knowledge, when I have screwed up in my school or work life, no one has ever suggested that my failures were in any way connected to my being white.
True stories
Both of those stories are true. The question is, can we recognize the truth in both of them?

I write this with some hesitation, as I am loathe to preach to people, and this is not meant as an attack on wchurchill, but it seems to me, especially from his exchanges with Izzy, that he only has one story to tell about himself, and it would be good if he tried to tell himself the other story, the one about privilege.

The Euro will ~~outlive~~bury us all --- Jean-Claude Juncker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 09:31:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (4.00 / 3)

I hate standardized tests, -- not because I'm terrible at taking them (I'm not), but because I find them useless outside of mathematical methods -- but what is it about (say) algebra that is biased in favor of whites? Would 1+1 not equal 2 if I were black? Jensen assures us that he feels no guilt about being white, but his words practically bleed guilt. I grew up in a middle- and working-class neighborhood (jobs ranging from doctors to electricians to landscapers), went to a majority-black middle school and roughly 50/50 high school. I was bullied quite often in middle school for being a skinny white kid who was afraid to get involved in a fistfight. What bothers me about many who write on race is that they have a tendency to ignore black racism and instead focus on "our" history of white supremacy.

Jensen's story of his all-white world does not make a great deal of sense to me. It's the same criticism Al Sharpton should've been hit with when he accused Howard Dean of being a racist due to his not hiring any black people as cabinet members in Vermont: Blacks make up less than one percent of Vermont's population. Latinos make up an even lower percentage. (Bll Maher actually joked, when Sharpton was a guest on his show, "You can't criticize a candidate, Al, for not hiring any black people to his cabinet when his state has no black people. Well, in fact, there is one black person in Vermont, but she's already on the maple syrup bottle.")

The race problem in America is not really about race. It's about policy, and it affects poor white kids, too. (Black neighborhoods were slammed by the crack market back in the 1980s. Poor white neighborhoods, especially in rural states, have been slammed by the crystal meth market.) Our policies on issues, like education and drugs, are sources of destruction for poor people. It's just that the effect, rightly or wrongly, seems to be magnified in predominantly-black neighborhoods. We criminalize drug use, creating a black market, which leads to gang leaders making large profits and hideous amounts of crime. Combine that with a pathetic education system in which kids -- especially those from lower-income areas -- are placed in a monopoly run by horrible teachers and administrators who don't give a damn about the kids (and simply give up on them), to say nothing of incompetent politicians (on the Right and Left), and it will become apparent to some kids that the gang life provides some obvious benefits.

We've created an unstable system that is going to continue falling apart, no matter how much money we throw at it or how many affirmative action programs we launch, until someone gets off his or her ass and produces a massive reform package that really will provide obvious opportunities for success. I don't deny the existence of racism and discrimination, but I do deny that our current policies have been successful. As I said, the group with which (say) school choice is most popular is poor, inner-city blacks. When reporters ask drug dealers about how policy could demolish drug-related crime, they all say the same thing: "Legalize it."

Everybody talks about white privilege, which I certainly acknowledge the existence of, but everyone wants to fight it with more of the same. We fight discrimination with discrimination. We throw money at a failed system. We criminalize, and inadvertantly glorify, the black market. Everyone wants policies that will keep people locked in.

It's a sick joke.

I can't tell people like Jensen how to deliver a world without race issues. But I can tell he, and those like him, how to make the current world better.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 12:43:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (none / 1)

I hate standardized tests, -- not because I'm terrible at taking them (I'm not), but because I find them useless outside of mathematical methods -- but what is it about (say) algebra that is biased in favor of whites? Would 1+1 not equal 2 if I were black?

Not only do standarized math test not really measure mathematical ability, but the problem (and the cultural bias) comes in precisely because they get used for every subject.

The Euro will ~~outlive~~bury us all --- Jean-Claude Juncker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 01:10:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (4.00 / 2)

but what is it about (say) algebra that is biased in favor of whites? Would 1+1 not equal 2 if I were black?

Algebra - not so much. But the verbal tests seem to be skewed towards a traditional middle class verbal background. If you grow up in Harlem you may not be any less intelligent, but your vocabulary will be very different.

Also middle class parents have money to spend on SAT tutoring. That's a class issue not a colour issue, but where there's an overlap it's also a cultural issue. If there's no culture of energetic self-improvement, and possibly also no idea that it's an option - how many poor kids even know that tutoring is possible? - then SAT scores will be skewed towards rewarding privilege.

We criminalize, and inadvertantly glorify, the black market.

Too many ironies. Middle class whites hate - say - Gangsta Rap because all that bling and violence is on the surface, where the middle classes and elites like to pretend to themselves that they don't do that stuff.

Part of the problem is that middle class and white collar crime is remote and abstract. But it kills far more people.

Street crime will be difficult to eliminate as long as white collar crimes are so easy to perpetrate - and often aren't even seen as crimes at all.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 01:19:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (none / 1)

I seriously wonder whether there are cognitive disadvantages to SAT tutoring. Standarized tests may get you into college, but teaching to them may make you unable to think outside the (check)box, especially if that's the only teaching you get in school (increasingly a problem when school funding depends on standarized test scores), and you get SAT tutoring on top of that.

I found the Physics GRE infuriating, by the way: it had all to do with rote memorization of type-problems (this question requires that formula) from 2nd-year mechanics and nothing to do with understanding physical principles like Newton's laws, the laws of thermodynamics, or anything else. I can only imagine how horrendous subject tests for Economics, Sociology or <shudder> History must be like. The general GRE was a run-of-the-mill IQ test in disguise, with a heavy bias towards left-brain thinking.

Ugh.

The Euro will ~~outlive~~bury us all --- Jean-Claude Juncker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 01:42:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (4.00 / 2)

Yes, but if you are trying to predict academic performance, and come up with a test that predicts academic performance, there is a problem. It doesn't matter whether the test is fair, or based on vocabulary or math or little pictures of colored balls; if it predicts what you're trying to predict, then it's doing what it's designed to do. The SAT is not the problem.

And, further, the whole point of standardized tests is to REMOVE bias from the college admissions system. You can argue about how well it works, but surely it works better than a system based on where your father or uncle went to school--which is how it used to work.

by asdf on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 04:38:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (none / 1)

So what do you think the problem is?

The correlation seems valid, but what is it really based on? From the vocab tests SATS it looks a lot like SATs don't just test ability, but socialisation. Academic success is partly about raw talent, but will also correlate with the ability to slot effortlessly into an educational framework defined mostly by middle class vales, background and social skills.

So I'd expect an inverse correlation with social stressors. Students who don't come from middle class will have to learn how to fit into a different setting to the one they're used to, which will be a handicap. And if they're working part time as well - which may be a necessity for some poorer students - that may be another sressor and handicap.

Some people will thrive under the challenge, but others will find it very difficult. The supposed objectivity of the SATS tends to bury the ways they can be influenced by these other factors.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 04:58:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (none / 0)

The problem is that people who do poorly on standardized tests press schools to increase the weight given to interviews, essays, essay tests, photographs, and family connections as part of the college application process. All of these cater to the crowd that has connections.

by asdf on Mon Apr 24th, 2006 at 09:16:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (none / 0)

That's true: access to third-level education in Ireland is based almost 100% on exam results, which means grind schools specialised in preparing richer kids for the exams and all the other good stuff that biases the results in favour of the rich. However, I can't think of any reform to the admittance part of the system that wouldn't make the situation worse. Entry to third-level education is probably the most meritocratic institution in the country despite the distortions.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Apr 24th, 2006 at 09:21:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (none / 0)

From my involvement in student government at the University of california I can attest that state-of-the-art admissions processes at US universities are baroque and full of epicycles.

The Euro will ~~outlive~~bury us all --- Jean-Claude Juncker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 24th, 2006 at 09:27:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (4.00 / 3)

In Kazakhstan, there are, if I am to simplify, 3 categories of people with regard to income and wealth. I guess, those are our social "classes."
The disparity between them is great.

The first one is the elite. Business, political, etc. We say they are the people who can afford to buy an apartment on the left bank of the Ishim river in Astana, the capital. After the capital was moved from Almaty in 1998, almost all of the new construction projects were initiated in that part of this northern city. New technologies, the new status of the city, current trends in the real estate sector - the prices of those apartments are very high.

The second group is the one that is "well-off," but as yet unable to make such a grand purchase. However, they are the people who can afford to take a mortgage from a bank, since the initial payment (I think, it's 10%) you have to provide and the interest (12%) are significant. Usually, these people are small businessmen of some sort.

The third group is the low-income class, which, from what I've personally experienced, is the majority of the population. They range from the unemployed-on-social-security-procurement-program to the employed-yet-having-times-when-there-is-literally-no-money-left. I belong to this group of people. And I am glad I do, since this gave me the sense of self-dependence which drives me today. I needed the scholarship to get into and study at the university. I still need the GPA money I occasionally get from it. And I still have to work over the summer to have something to live by while in Bulgaria (nope, not in the States on Work and Travel, since I don't have money for the program).

Nonetheless, I begin to see that the situation in my country is changing. Due to an inflow of oil money? Maybe. Thank God, the satiated public officials took the economy as the project reflects their personal achievement, for a change. (I don't believe in their altruism or patriotism.) Their houses and cars don't impress anymore. The middle group has the same.

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government -- Edward Abbey

by serik berik (serik[dot]berik on Gmail) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 08:24:39 AM EST

Re: Class (none / 0)

i think the whole concept of class is risible and regressive.

it goes so deep to feel 'better than' though, that i wonder how long it will take to eradicate from our collective consciousness.

growing up in london in the 60's, it was amazing to see the turvy rise up and topple the topsy; THE JOB IS STILL LARGELY UNDONE:

"It's very hard to see what is kept invisible" Roseanne Barr

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 09:13:19 AM EST

Re: Class (4.00 / 4)

Class is like race. You can call it risible, regressive and unscientific, but that doesn't help dealing with the very real issues of privilege, discrimination, inequality... And even if class and race are all about perception, the reality of perceived differences within a society by the members of the society has practical consequences.

I do not believe that class or race are important, but just as I was occasionally made aware of (my) race in the US I am made aware of (my) class in the UK. It's subtle and unnerving, and it's there.

The Euro will ~~outlive~~bury us all --- Jean-Claude Juncker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 09:18:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (none / 0)

hey migeru, i didn't call it unscientific....lol

i know it's there, and shit yes it sucks bigtime.

and for a powerless blogger like me, scorn is an excellent tool to demystify bullshit.

funny, i get a giggle when i see you use it as well!

little contradiction perhaps, when you say it's not important?

i agree it SHOULD not be important, but until we evolve further, i would like to do all i can (precious little unfortunately) to change the staus quo on this, especially about the predominance of left-brain education.

heirarchy is so inherent, sadly.

"It's very hard to see what is kept invisible" Roseanne Barr

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Apr 24th, 2006 at 03:30:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (none / 0)

Oh, but others did call it unscientific...

When I say "I do not believe that race or class are important" I mean that I try to live my life as if race and class didn't matter. Which is why, when I encounter them rearing their ugly head in an otherwise innocent social situation, I am unnerved.

Hyerarchy is inherent, but it need not be entrenched. Cross-generational entrenchment of hyerarchy is the problem, hyerarchy seems to be essential to the way primate societes organize themselves.

The Euro will ~~outlive~~bury us all --- Jean-Claude Juncker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 24th, 2006 at 05:23:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (none / 0)

Hyerarchy is inherent, but it need not be entrenched. Cross-generational entrenchment of hyerarchy is the problem, hyerarchy seems to be essential to the way primate societes organize themselves.

is that your own spelling innovation for 'hierarchies'?

has a medieval flair...

any particular reason you see a need to adhere to 'primate societies' as social model?

scratch, grunt...

"It's very hard to see what is kept invisible" Roseanne Barr

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Apr 24th, 2006 at 10:57:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (4.00 / 2)

You are right. Class is not only about income. It has all these social, political, etc.. dimensions. The first example I think of is students from Eastern Europe working in the States for the summer. Neither of them feels the class of Americans working in the same place. Sorry to raise this topic..

-- Fighting my own apathy..

by Naneva (mnaneva at gmail dot com) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 10:34:59 AM EST

Re: Class (none / 1)

At least they're white, and likely blond...

The Euro will ~~outlive~~bury us all --- Jean-Claude Juncker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 10:41:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Class (4.00 / 3)

It's not only about money, but let's face it, it is about money in the end. Life style that we can afford in the society we live in makes us belonging to this or that class. There are people who suddenly became rich and are not ready to culturally and in other ways join upper class but with money even they can learn to at least look like upper class. There are lower classes people who are sophisticated and wide open minded like no one from the upper class (money can't buy everything)...but they worked hard on their selves and had to sacrifice (mostly their parents) a lot...
I grew up in a society that supposed to be of "no class"...but even there, there was a "political class" that enjoyed life like we could only dream of...they was not that visible cause they didn't live amongst us...
Here in Australia it's enough to say in which suburb you live to be classified. No matter that my (and my bank's, haha) 200m2 house with swimming pool amongst palm trees looks like upper class living to a lot of people around the world...
I have a friend who sacrifices a lot to send her only girl to private school. There for they live in a small 2 bedroom apartment in one of the very good Melbourne's suburbs. But her daughter's school friends come from the very rich families and from the really huge houses with tennis courts and swimming pools. Her daughter is already suffering complex all though she is still young (14) and I am not sure what long term effects will this have on her...
Statistics are that really insignificant number of people are able to "upgrade" to a higher class during their lives...thanks to technological (sometimes social) and other advances they manage to advance comparing to their parents but most of them not enough to "jump" in to the next class.
I was watching USA program where a young software engineer in USA explains why his father who at the time owned small grocery store and was not educated had better chances to advance financially in life then this young man...

by vbo on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 11:03:08 AM EST

Re: Class (4.00 / 2)

From the standpoint of the individual, do you think any of these teachings from the great spiritual leaders, or thinkers, provides any insight here:

Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power.
If you realise that you have enough,
you are truly rich.

This is from the Tao, but similar thoughts seem to exist in most if not all of the spiritual traditions. Isn't true power and happiness really within ourselves? Our minds are wonderful things, but when you sit and watch your mind in reflection or meditation, it's kind of a scary thing. The Buddhists compares our mind jumping from thought to thought like monkey's swinging from tree to tree in the forest. The striving, the comparisons to others, the "I should have told him that". It's incredible what goes on in there. And a lot of our striving to the top, comparing ourselves to others, comes from the random wandering of the mind. (sorry if I'm getting a little far out here.) But mastering yourself, your mind, is true power,,,,at least the teachings would tell us that. The comment from above that "if you realise that you have enough, you are truly rich" reminds me of Walden, by Thoreau. He showed, in another time, that the simple life can be lived incredibly cheaply--and bring true happiness. He demonstrated how incredibly cheaply his abode could be built. And he showed how a working Irish family made so many assumptions about life, the jobs they should have, the "things" they need,,,that they really defined for themselves a life of slavery. When in reality a life of peace and beauty was right in front of their noses. And Thoreau was living that peaceful wonderful life, had the freedoms they did not have because they had chained themselves to a life they didn't have to choose.

Arent' we doing the same as the Irish family when we accept these economic definitions of class, and assume everyone needs to get to the top? Or that somehow this should drive our lives,,,or others lives? (I know i'm getting a little hyperbolic here--most of us probably don't do this to a great degree,,,but I roll on.) I know some pretty wealthy people that are not very happy in their lives--and often don't even understand how wealthy they are, because they're lookiing at someone with a nicer car and nicer house and lusting after his/her possessions. I also know some very happy families, black and Latino, where the jobs they have are like driving a bus, working on contract as a hospice worker--they don't have a lot of money, but they are dedicated to their children, families, and their spirituality--and they're incredibly happy. The latter seem to have the wisdom that can be found in life, and the true happiness. I'm sure if they let themselves spend their time comparing to others that have more material things, they could figure out how to become unhappy.

by wchurchill on Sun Apr 23rd, 2006 at 02:45:56 PM EST

Class | 21 comments (21 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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