European Tribune

The Iranian scenario that keeps me up at night

by STA
Fri May 19th, 2006 at 08:26:36 AM EST

There have been a steady number of diaries and stories about Iran. Yesterday's goingsouth diary was yet one more thoughtful one.

In this diary, I would like to present what I consider the worse scenario, my biggest fear, but also my only hope, coming from the international community.

Promoted by Colman


This diary is not as researched as the other ones about Iran. Partly because my worry here is a bit speculative and partly because I am not sure I can trust most of what I read these days, I am not sure if I can cite my fears directly but I do have a concrete nightmare scenario.

I - My Reasoned Skepticism

Let me first reiterate that I do not believe that an attack is imminent. I have two reasons:

  • I do not believe that Bush has enough political capital on this issue.

  • An attack against Iran would require first a major Iranian slippage, such as being behind the next 9/11.
  • II - My worry

    That said, going back to the same two issues:

    Bush is in a free fall and attacking Iran may be a way to intensify his agenda and (they may believe) quiet the domestic critics. It worked for Afghanistan and Iraq
    Ahmadinejad is also in a tough spot; he needs the distraction; he needs to create a unity that no longer exists in the country. (I had mentioned this yesterday.)

    Iran's fragmentation is not a minor issue. Different branches of the regime are working against each other. Ahmadinejad is trying to crush them; a war would help him, hence his rhetoric that is willfully provocative. But he is not a uniter!

    Today, May 17, is Khomeini's birthday - the greatest tragedy of Iran. It reminds me of Marx:

    Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.

    Ahmadinejad is the farce. He is trying to capture Khomeiny's spirit. Not that we need that mess back, but consider his weak attempt to create national-oneness:

    The Iranian parliament authorized most of the clauses of the "national uniform law" - one of the government projects suggested by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad before parliament.
    According to a report in the London-based Arabic-language newspaper al-Sharq al-Awsat, the law is supposed to replace what is termed "Western" dress from the streets of Iranian cities, and advance "Islamic" dress.
     According to the new law, economic relief for local clothing designers will be granted so that they can "concentrate on clothing matching the national and Islamic identity of Iran."

    It has a snowball's chance in Tehran; it won't even become a law. But it speaks to his insane goals.

    III - My Nightmare

     My nightmare is that my Reasoned Skepticism will not make it and that these "leaders" will lead to a nightmare...

    Given that a full invasion is not an option, the American government launches aerial attacks.

    At this point, there would be worldwide indignation and could lead to a very interesting shift of the state of affairs...Inside and outside of the US, such attacks would not be taken kindly.

    Except...I think that before there is time for indignation, Iran strikes Israel. Iran cannot really strike the US (see this map for Iran's range.)

    An attack against Israel is my worse nightmare because it would lead to a larger world wide conflict. Nuclear weapons would then be a real possibility; they could be used

    IV - My Dim Hope

    If the American government is savage enough to attack Iran, the Iranian government is savage enough to attack Israel.

    My dimmest hope is that the world could prepare for this. I have little hope that we could convince either Bush or Ahmadinejad. But we need Europe, all Middle-Eastern countries (including Israel) and the rest of the world to begin now a diplomatic process that commits to restraint. In this worse case scenario, a pre-established diplomatic effort could curtail and contain a wider conflict.

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    1/ i do not believe in any attack on Iran

    but if it happen, an attack on Israel seems unlikely to me, i forecast a destruction by few iranian missiles of oil installations on the north-east of saoudi arabia and koweit (both pro-american countries).

    i would be interesting to see what Bush can do in a world without petrol for few years, a $50/gallons
    would be an hard lesson for the americans (and us as well).

    by fredouil (fredouil@gmailgmailgmail.com) on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 05:03:48 AM EST
    I would be really surprised if Iran attacked Arab countries. What Ahmadinejad is trying to do is to muster influence in the region -- same dream that Khomeini had. Attacking Saudi Arabia would be disastrous for the Iranian government's PR campaign.

    I certainly think that they're irrational enough to retaliate. And I think that if they do, it could be against Israel...The only country within decent range that they consider a true target. Koweit is not their problem.

    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 10:39:12 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    If the Israelis attack Iran ( highly unlikely ), then Iran will retaliate against them.

    If the US attacks Iran - then the Iranians will exercise their right of retaliation against US forces in the region, whether in the Gulf, in Iraq or in Kuwait. They have no reason not to, as a failure to do so will only invite further attacks.

    by londanium on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 01:18:57 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I don't think that Israel would attack Iran first.

    I worry that a) US would have aerial attacks and b)Iran would retaliate against Israel to get a larger conflict and not be like Irak: isolated.

    I said it before, this is my worse case scenario. I truly hope to be wrong.

    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 01:48:19 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I do not really see why they would choose to attack Israel with all those american targets sitting in Iraq.
    by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 03:26:59 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    They don't even need to openly attack the US troops in Iraq. All they need to do is prod SCIRI's militia a little but. Hey, they probably won't even need to prod them at all, Iraq's shiite south will spontaneously combust.

    A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 06:08:29 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I don't think they would want to be in a one on one war with the US. They would lose that all too quickly. All the rhetoric that Ahmadinejad recently used against Israel is meant to highlight this very possibility. He wants people to know that he would drag others into the conflict.
    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 07:07:56 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Given the Iraq experience, and the fact that US ground troops are bogged down there, are you sure they would loose that fast? Or, lternatively, that Ahmedinejad does not believe on the same basis that the US would lose?

    *Traitor*, n.
    A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
    by DoDo on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 01:54:03 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The Iranian government might lose rather quick. That doesn't mean that the US would be able to gain control of Iran, though. The Taliban and Saddam were toppled in a few weeks, but today the "coalition" controls only Kabul and the Baghdad Green Zone.

    A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 01:58:47 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    This is of course very difficult to predict. I do think that Iran would try to fight it but I am -- quite sadly in some ways and happily in others-- convinced that Iranians would not resist US troops.

    There is a significant difference between Iran and Iraq: Iran has tried religious fundamentalism. It has no appeal whatsoever left. Iraq had not. Hence Al Sadr and Sistani. What would make Iranians resist is national pride and the pesky nature of people that makes them not liked being bombed.

    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 02:02:12 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    On the latter, I again have to disagree, or, how do you interpret the elections Ahmedinejad won?

    In my interpretation, poorer Iranians more concerned with economic issues than religion gave up all hope on the reformers too, while not trusting the 'pragmatists' seeing them as a corrupt bunch preaching water and drinking wine, and fell for Ahmedinejad's populism.

    Consequently, on the former, even if the US can invade with ground troops (which I doubt), there might either be enough Iranians for the repeat of the mostly Sunni Arab Iraqi guerilla war (but this time planned well in advance and not developng on the fly), or even if not, Ahmedinejad might still believe so.

    *Traitor*, n.
    A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

    by DoDo on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 02:22:13 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I am really not convinced that he won fair and square. Many boycotted the elections and I honestly believe that even with that factor it is hard t believe that he would get such a majority.

    Reformers were terrible; they were not reformers. Almost nobody desirable was allowed to run. Within that narrow range he came ahead. But this does not mean that Iranians would back religious fanatics. Like I said, nationalism would make them resist (for however long) but there will no religious appeal.

    Even the most devout folks I know personally are disillusioned with religion.

    Much like Europe that experienced this unhealthy mix of politics and religion, Iran's future is secular.

    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 02:31:29 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Here's the neocons' scenario.  (Yes, these people have the temerity to promote ME II.)  Woolsey, Timmerman (a hireling of one of those Iranian exile groups) and McInerney (new version of LeMay) discuss:

    1. bombing campaign, followed by
    2. Iranian revolution.
    by goinsouth (imgoinsouth@gmail.com) on Sat May 20th, 2006 at 12:32:15 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I don't think that Israel would attack Iran first.

    Why? Based on history, that could be a real possibility - think attack on Iraq in the early eighties.

    *Traitor*, n.
    A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

    by DoDo on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 01:57:19 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    we need Europe, all Middle-Eastern countries (including Israel) and the rest of the world to begin now a diplomatic process that commits to restraint. In this worse case scenario, a pre-established diplomatic effort could curtail and contain a wider conflict.

    Absolutely...asap, if not sooner...

    Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!

    by whataboutbob on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 07:27:31 AM EST
    Frankly I'm somewhat skeptical of your assertion that Ahmadinejad, or any Iranian for that matter, would consider a US military assault something to be welcomed; it's just a facile buy-in to stereotypes of fanatical martyrdom seeking Iranians, tsk tsk, how typical!.

    I think you're misreading the game being played by Ahmadinejad, and over-emphasising his position within the power structure. I don't get the impression that he's in a tight spot at all - he's doing exactly what he is supposed to do, which is to drive the perceived costs of military action against Iran to an unacceptable level and, in the best case scenario, get the US to the negotiating table at the best price possible.

    Any analysis of the current diplomatic trajectory will demonstrate that the Iranians are winning the arguments - the Bush administration has no coherent policy beyond "whatever it is we're against it", and has been actively shooting itself in the feet and forehead over its treatment of Hu, and Cheney's verbal assault on Putin. The Iranians have demonstrated a consistent willingness to talk - but they're not going to back down on their legitimate rights.

    Iran is a complex polity with a distributed power structure - there are well-known policy, ideological and personal differences that animate the nation - just like in most other nations. You're seizing on an inappropriately totalitarian notion of "national unity" that seems to have no real meaning with regards to Iran, unless you're trying to assert that they're a sort of "unique" case that requires a "special" language to describe their politics; start analysing Iran in terms of the combination of interests, ideology, pragmatism and statecraft and you get their version of "politics as normal".

    by londanium on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 01:15:01 PM EST
    I think you're misreading Ahmadinejad's position. He may or may not be "doing what he is supposed to" in an international context, but it is clear that he is engaged in a struggle for control in the internal context. As such, it is not a question of "stereotypes of fanatical martyrdom" to suggest that he could see serious political advantages in limited US attacks (for example a short, sharp bombing campaign.) Saddam and many others have turned such things to their internal advantage.

    If you are a ruthless, rational politician (which Ahmadinejad's history does not seem to preclude) then this is a calculation you will at least explore.

    by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 01:41:23 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Thanks for your reply. It is nice to talk about these issues.

    I absolutely think that he is in a tightspot. He has very little support among most conservatives. Consider this: it took him three tries before his choice for Minister of Oil made it. This is obviously one of the most important posts in the entire country and he cannot muster enough support even on this basic issue.

    Iranians do want to negotiate but right now this is not a genuine option. Ahmadinejad does not mean it, in my view. There is much that Iran needs help for, especially in building and updating its economic infrastructure. This would be the ideal time to get help, as now Iran is the least economically developed country of the persian gulf, with the exception of Irak.

    I know that he cannot really negotiate with the US; but he is not showing any sign that he is actually trying to negotiate with the EU either.

    Iran is certainly complex. It has a number of different ethnicities, languages and traditions. But, that said, it has managed to avoid the kind of inner fights that other countries, like Irak, have had. It is more nationalist than neighboring countries because it is not Arab and it cannot play the Pan-Arabic game. It had to be a united country. This unity could be un-healthy and as an Iranian I am always worried about it.  

    But the unity that I was mentioning is at the governmental level. Khomeini had a cohesive government. A bad one, but a united one. Even Khatami did. This one, currently, has none. Many members of the conservative front are fighting each other for money, prestige and contracts behind the scenes. It is a real crisis. Iranian papers and people know it; I don't read it in the foreign press much.

    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 01:45:58 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Iran is the least economically developed country of the persian gulf, with the exception of Irak.

    Given the population to oil production ratio, and relations with the West, I don't think that thzat is a sign of worse management relative to other Gulf countries.

    I know that he cannot really negotiate with the US; but he is not showing any sign that he is actually trying to negotiate with the EU either.

    But if the US is no party to a negotiation and looms further as a threat (military, sanctions, diplomatic, secret operations), negotiations wth the EU-3 (especially in the current let's-appease-both-sides mode) is worth little, don't you think? Also, there are negotiations with Russia.

    (I agree on the rest, these were only two quibbles.)

    *Traitor*, n.
    A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

    by DoDo on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 01:49:23 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well...I am thinking of what the UAE have done. Even the Saudis, notoriously bad planners (by relying too much on oil) are thinking about new ideas for the future. They're building more roads and hospitals; they're sending their students to study, etc. Iran is not doing anything of the kind. And it is behind in technology in general.

    Initially, before weblogs were popular, Iran was said to have the greatest number of blogs per capita. The desire and the need is there; the response by the government is terrible.

    Your second point about negotiations is a very good one. Two things:

    1 -- On ET, many rightly bash Bush on Iran; I just want to underline that Ahmadinejad is no negotiator either.

    2 -- EU negotiations are worth the trouble because I think it would not allow for the issue to become an Iran-USA one. EU's efforts would pay off at least by not allowing these two unilateralists to simplify the matter.

    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 01:58:06 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Iran is not doing anything of the kind.

    I have to disagree based on personal experience resp. my profession. They aren't sending students to the USA, but they send them elsewhere: there were some at my university (including veiled women). Also, they improved education at home (which fired back when the new educated generation wanted more freedoms). They are building infrastructure IMO more sensefully than the Gulf states: while the latter wasted a lot of money on superhighways and airports in the desert and began to build railroads and mass transit only now, Iran built them for a few years now.

    On 1 agreed, on 2, what about Russia?

    *Traitor*, n.
    A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

    by DoDo on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 02:14:31 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Iran is a very educated country. At some point, I read something to the effect that Iranians are the most educated nationality in the US.

    I know that Iran does not send them as much to the US anymore. They do have programs with Europe, Russia, Turkey and Armenia. But a lot less than before for a simple reason: students who leave the country are not as likely to come back! Too many have already left. Iran has experienced a real brain drain.

    They have created many universities but the quality is rather terrible. The censorship and the lack of funding have hurt the higher ed institutions quite a bit.

    I am not saying that they're like the Talibans and do nothing. Not in recent memory have there been so much unemployment, corruption and discontent.

    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 02:25:37 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    In 1993 I took part in the international mathematical olympiad. The Iranian team consisted of 3 boys and 3 girls, which was more girls than just about any other team. I was them study once by the poolside at the resort where we were staying. The boys and the girls sat at separate tables a few metres away and the team leaders (two male professors) kept going back and forth between the tables.

    A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 03:46:01 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    To further illustrate why I believe that Ahmadinejad is not in control:

    Human rights groups are raising alarms over a new law passed by the Iranian parliament that would require the country's Jews and Christians to wear coloured badges to identify them and other religious minorities as non-Muslims.

    Read the (scary) rest...

    This is not a politics of negotiation.

    I go back to my hope that the international community will not play into his hands (or the other crazies)

    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 12:07:06 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    If you don't force dhimmi to wear badges, how are you going to know they're dhimmi?

    A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 12:09:42 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I'm afraid that my be a hoax:

    Iran report of Holocaust-style badges questioned

    The National Post is sending shockwaves across the country this morning with a report that Iran's Parliament has passed a law requiring mandatory Holocaust style badges to identify Jews and Christians.
    But independent reporter Meir Javedanfar, an Israeli Middle East expert who was born and raised in Tehran, says the report is false.
    "It's absolutely factually incorrect," he told The New 940 Montreal.
    "Nowhere in the law is there any talk of Jews and Christians having to wear different colours. I've checked it with sources both inside Iran and outside."
    "The Iranian people would never stand for it. The Iranian government wouldn't be stupid enough to do it."
    Political commentator and 940 Montreal host Beryl Waysman says the report is true, that the law was passed two years ago.
    "Jews should wear yellow strips, Christians red strips, because according to the Iranian mullahs, if a Mulsim shakes hands with a non-Muslim he becomes unclean."

    The National Post cites Iranian expatriots living in Canada as its primary source on the story.


    (link via link)

    Also, the Simon  Wiesental Center (cited in the original article) has nothing up on its website.

    "Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

    by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 12:57:56 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    damn. ...MIGHT be a hoax...

    "Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
    by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    It's worth noting that Meir Javedanfar is part of MEERAP and is a credible analyst.

    The Iranian expat cited is an Ali Behroozian who is, to be blunt, utterly anonymous, unless he's a tennis player.

    Obviously it would be nice to have a text of the Iranian statute mandating this, and a list of the human rights organisations that have expressed their dismay over the proposed law, if it is indeed a proposed law.

    by londanium on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 01:15:11 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    My parents read more Iranian news than I do (I spend more time on English speaking blogs/news sites) and they say that it is not quite a hoax but a suggestion made  by the radical right wing of the party. It is a "hope" (sic).
    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 01:50:35 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Has it been brought in as a bill?

    "Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
    by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 02:01:37 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    It would be nice if you could be a bit more explicit about this - is it a line item in a piece of legislation awaiting approval, which the report suggests is the case, or is it a piece of wishful thinking being promoted by a faction within the Majlis?
    by londanium on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 02:09:20 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I am looking to see if it ever made it to the majlis. My father just told me that he cannot find any trace of in the majlis. He believes that it was a speech made by a politician,a kind of wishful thinking.
    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 02:34:17 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    So the Chris Wattie bylined story that was published  in Canada is, er, bullshit?
    by londanium on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 03:01:55 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I suspect there is more and more of a Chalabi effect going on with Iran. I think that there are Chalabi-like Iranians who will feed the media and politicians these bits as news, hoping to get something our of it.
    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 03:27:18 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Bush hasn't got the political capital left to attack Iran. But then he doesn't need to.

    Ohlmert of Israel has said they are going to do it, period. They simply cannot abide a nuclear-armed Iran.

    Right now a few Trident subs are on station in the Gulf area, packed with Tomahawk missiles. The USS Reagan aircraft carrier is on station in the Persian Gulf. The USS Abraham Lincoln and the USS Enterprise -- both aircraft carriers -- are on their way to the Persian Gulf right now, and will be in combat position by June 10.

    Israel will then pre-emptively attack Iran's key nuclear facilities with conventional bombing. America will be loitering in the area, to let Iran know that they better take their lumps quietly. Better change your regime to an American-friendly puppet government, or you'll get even more lumps.

    When Iran doesn't surrender, when they start launching missiles at Israel and shutting down oil production in the Gulf, Bush will announce to the American people that "we have no choice" but to preserve the peace and sae the world by attacking Iran.  Thank God we have conveniently placed carrier battle groups, sub-based Tomahawks, and B-2 and B-52 bombers from Omaha and Diego Garcia all loaded and ready to deliver a coordinated attack.

    Bush is not going to start a war with Iran.  Israel is, and we're going to be "forced" to join in.

    Frames exist within larger frames. Draw a larger frame around your opponent's frame; he will appear wrong or insufficient. This is how wizards play.

    by Antifa (antifa@bellsouth.net) on Thu May 18th, 2006 at 07:11:40 PM EST
    What airspace is Israel supposed to use to accomplish this? I think that the use of Turkey and Saudi Arabia can be discounted. Turkey is in a formal tactical alliance with Iran to combat Kurdish irredentism, relations with Israel have been deteriorating over the past 3 years, the Israelis have nothing to offer them as an inducement, the violation of Turkish airspace without permission for this kind of operation would likely be met with a muscular response by the Turks, the Iranians would be tipped off etc.

    The Saudis could not allow the use of their airspace by Israel for very obvious reasons ( it would spark a crisis of legitimacy of the Saudi state amongst other things ) - they would be trying to shoot Israeli planes down as they could not be certain that they weren't the target, the Iranians would be tipped-off, and the whole "mission" would again be compromised. The worst case scenario for the Saudis, if they failed to attempt to physically block the Israeli incursion, is that the Iranians would deem this as complicity in aggression - and there are serious consequences that flow from that.

    With both Turkey and Saudi Arabia you have to assume that both these states are prepared to subordinate their own interests to those of Israel; this strikes me as fanciful.

    This only leaves Iraq, whose government does not recognise Israel, and will not at this stage even contemplate normalising relations. Iraq's skies may be controlled by the US, but the US is under a UN mandate which would explicitly require it to intedict the Israeli airforce violation of Iraqi airspace ( just try to imagine the reverse scenario of Iranian planes violating Iraqi airspace to attack Israel ). As a "political" decision it would lead to a disaster for the US, and they would obviously be directly complicit in the project; it would be a very obvious demonstration to Iraqis that they are subordinate to the interests and designs of others. There would be a flurry of fatwas emanating from Karbala, Najaf and elsewhere within 24 hours enjoining the Shia faithful to expel the US.

    Given the distance to targets, the Israelis would be operating at the extreme edges of their operational limits, and without in-flight refuelling capabilities, would be compromised with regards to the bomb loads that their aircraft could carry. There's also the thorny problem of what the target set is. Attacking Iran's declared facilities is pointless - there's no substantive evidence of proscribed activities taking place in the IAEA inspected sites, but the Israelis ( and others ) are asserting "secret" sites that they cannot locate or identify. Essentially, any Israeli attack would be "symbolic" rather than "substantive".

    Where are they going to park their refuellers? How are they going to do bomb damage assessments? How are they going to interdict Iranian retaliatory options of using long-range and cruise missiles targetting Dimona? Does the Israeli state want to take the risk of attempting a "symbolic" attack, whose principal outcome will be the settling of any internal Iranian argument regarding whether they should go the full Monte over weaponisation?

    The Israelis have been trying to get the US to attack Iran since 1991; they have been threatening to bomb Iran's nuclear sites since 1995. Their strategy is, and always has been, to get the US to take the regime down.

    by londanium on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 06:09:25 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    To use Iraqi airspace Israel would need to go through Syria or Jordan. Syria is out of the question, and that leaves Jordan with its roughly 50% palestinian (West Bank) population. They can't afford it.

    A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 06:16:51 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    It's not like the Syrians and Jordanians can do anything about it.

    During the 1982 war the Israelis shot down eighty Syrian aircraft with no losses of their own.

    Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

    by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 08:45:18 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, that's not entirely accurate. Both Syria and Jordan would know of the incursions and this information would very quickly be disseminated, which would give the Iranians at least some chance of organising counter-measures.

    There's also the possibility that the Syrians might try to do something about it - how would they know that they weren't the target? Just scrambling planes to intercept/using their SAM capabilities erodes the operational margins for Israeli bombers en route to Iran. And unless one is going to posit a one-way Israeli "suicide" mission, the third-country interdiction scenario, or the Caspian sea ditch scenario, the Israeli aircraft would still have to make a return journey.

    The Jordanians could do little to counter it, but it would likely cause serious domestic problems for the government; the Israelis would have to balance the best case benefits of hitting Iran against the potential destabilization of one of the few Arab states that it has normalised relation with. The Israelis would still have to transit Iraqi airspace - and would thus require the consent of the US to facilitate it.

    by londanium on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 10:11:23 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    It wouldn't affect the bombers as they could be escorted by fighter aircraft through Syrian and Jordanian airspace, but sure the Jordanians and the Syrians would know what was happening.

    At the raid on Osiraq the Israelis flew along the Gulf of Aqaba and then flew at 20 metres height through northern Saudi Arabia, under the enemy radar coverage.

    Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

    by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 11:57:32 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    With some undisclosed US help. However, I seem to recall the Syrians purchasing the Russian air defense missile system (the one which is much superior to the US PATRIOT) - that could make Israeli passage much harder. (Anyone know for sure whether there was such a deal and whether it was delivered on?)

    *Traitor*, n.
    A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
    by DoDo on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 02:25:30 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Initially the Syrians wanted to buy a SAM system called Iskander, but after protests from both the US and Israel the Russians seemed to ditch the deal and settle for a smaller SAM system that is portable and with a smaller range.  The portable system consists of Strelets missiles similar to the more known Stinger missiles.  These missiles have a shorter range and thus are more suited to protect small facilities within Syria.  Still, with the knowledge and history of the Stingers successes in Afghanistan this system have raised concerns both in the US and Israel, but this time it seems as if the Russians are going to close a deal with the Syrians.  

    Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
    by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 06:25:01 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    An attack from Iraq is a guarantee that insurection will turn even more violent, especially in Basra and other southern regions.  

    I don't think an Arab country can be used against Iran. Afghanistan seems possible.

    Ahmadinjead is working his arab connections:

    Syria:

    DAMASCUS, May 18, 2006 (AFP) - Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki flew to Syria Thursday on an unannounced visit, and immediately went into a meeting with President Bashar al-Assad, a Syrian oficial said.

    His visit was prompted by "developments in the region which require talks" between Iran and Syria, Mottaki said on arrival at Damascus airport, where he was welcomed by his Syrian counterpart, Walid al-Muallem.

    There was no mention of the current international pressure on Syria to recognise the sovereignty of Lebanon. This culminated in a United Nations Security Council resolution on Wednesday calling on Damascus to establish formal diplomatic relations with Beirut and to demarcate their border. This prompted Damascus to claim interference it its affairs.

    Mottaki arrived from Jordan, and will hold a press conference before returning to Iran

    Lebanon:

    Tehran, Iran, May 16 - Iran's hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Tuesday that the Islamic Republic sought to expand its ties with Lebanon.

    Ahmadinejad said that it was essential to develop Tehran-Beirut relations in every domain, according to a statement released by the Presidential Office.

    He made the remarks in a meeting with Iran's new ambassador to Lebanon, Mohammad-Reza Raouf Sheibani.

    United States official have accused Tehran of supporting rejectionist groups operating in Lebanon in an attempt to destabilise the Middle East.

    In January, hard-line Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad travelled to Damascus to meet with Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad.

    At the end of the trip, Ahmadinejad defended al-Assad in the United Nations probe into the murder of former Lebanese Prime Minster Rafiq Hariri.

    A UN-appointed committee investigation into Hariri's assassination in 2005 found that senior Syrian leaders were directly involved.

    Regional allies Iran and Syria are both accused by the United States of being state sponsors of terrorism.

    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 08:57:35 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Just to add, without getting into whether the Israelis will bomb first or not, even if that is a possibility, the Israelis have done a similar sorti before with the bombing of the Osirak nuclear facility in Iraq in 1981 and at the time they used Jordanian airspace.  

    Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
    by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 10:24:51 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Here is a link about the Osirak nuclear facility.

    Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
    by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 10:31:30 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Any political consequences of that, or did Jordan just roll over?

    A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 10:46:39 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, as you seem to correctly imply, Jordan rolled over.

    Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
    by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 11:09:45 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I suspect that Israel had warned the Jordanian authorities secretly and expected them to comply, which they did.  Still, bear in mind that the Hashemite Kingdom has always had a rather good relation to Israel, so good in fact that when King Hussein expelled Arafat and Fatah from Jordanian territory during the Black September ordeal in the early 1970s, Israel was on standby alert and flexed its military muscles by ordering fighter squadrons to fly over the Syrian-Jordanian border to signal the consequences if Syria were to invade Jordan during the "civil war" between the  King and the Palestinian fractions in the country.

    Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
    by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 11:21:58 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    So, has the situation with the palestinian factions within jordan gotten better or worse for the monarchy than it was in 1981?

    A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 11:23:43 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The situation in Jordan is considerable better now, between the Palestinian population and the "native" population in the country, but there are still frictions between the two, but most of those frictions are non-violent and has transcended over to political battles within parliament.  The Palestinian "political" fraction that has had most disputes with the King the last few years are the Islamist led by the Islamic Action Front occupying some 25% of the 84 seats in Parliament. The Islamic Action Front is said to be a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood movement and is not a pure Palestinian political party, but some strong voices within the party are of Palestinian heritage.    

    Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
    by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 11:50:16 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I think one potential Israeli attack weapon hasn't been considered by you yet: submarine-launched rockets.

    Regarding the Iranian return strike, methinks you haven't considered one obvious defense line for Israelis: US airforce in Iraq.

    *Traitor*, n.
    A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

    by DoDo on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 02:06:55 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    To my knowledge, Israel only has a few diesel-electric subs operating in the mediterranean. Could check on Janes' exactly how many, but they're certainly unable to launch SLBM, possibly US-made cruise missiles from torpedo tubes. But then, they would just launch the cruise missiles from bombers halfway to Iran (Jordan/Iraq, I think they wouldn't give a damn and the US would claim "we told them to turn around as soon as they entered the airspace but they wouldn't comply").

    A iranian strike on Israel would use home-grown ballistic missiles improved from 60's soviet designs. Don't expect anything better than kilometric accuracy, but the range is feasible, nothing could stop them (20 patriots per scud ? LOL) and the warning would be about 20 minutes. Except if fitted with nukes, they wouldn't have much military effectiveness, just expensive terrorist attacks.

    Pierre
    by Pierre on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 03:00:03 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yes, you are quite right.  The Israelis have only a few diesel-electric subs operating in the Mediterranean, but these Dolphin class subs are quite new, made in Germany in the 1990s and have the capability of launching nuclear tipped sea launched cruise missiles.

    Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
    by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 06:37:25 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Using nuclear weapons in a pre-emptive strike would shatter what is left of Israel's diplomatic legitimacy. I can't imagine them doing that. But of course, the whole Iran story is not rational.

    Pierre
    by Pierre on Sat May 20th, 2006 at 10:52:27 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I have to agree with you there.  It just wouldn't be plausible that the Israelis would contemplate using nuclear weapons in a pre-emptive strike.

    Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
    by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Sat May 20th, 2006 at 05:58:30 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    But there is no nuclear Iran. They make big noises, but so far have at best demonstrated a laboratory possibility of enriching weapon material. The best thing that could happen is that Europe, or the UN, or Russia and/or China, or somebody, could talk them into a more reasonable position. For example, perhaps Europe could supply the technology and support needed to actually build nuclear power plants, and some country in Africa, or perhaps Canada, could supply the required fuel.

    Unfortunately these approaches have been tried repeatedly without success.

    by asdf on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 09:08:34 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    From today's Financial Times:

    Western intelligence agencies are likely to speed up their estimates of when Iran could develop a nuclear weapon, so increasing the pressure on President George W. Bush to act against the Islamic republic, according to western officials and nuclear experts.

    That said, I actually agree with you. I think that this government of Iran is vastly inefficient. They're ruining the country and they have no management skill. They cannot even manage the oil industry; they sometimes run out and have to import oil! Researching and producing a nuclear weapon seems beyond their current ability.

    Nevertheless, I entitled this entry my worse nightmare. There are more rational arguments against attacking Iran and Iran's retaliation than in many other pre-war debates. But therein lies my fear -- rational arguments could go unnoticed...

    by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Fri May 19th, 2006 at 09:22:43 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    My dimmest hope is that the world could prepare for this
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    by daydaytop2008 (daydaytop2008@yahoo.com.cn) on Sun Jun 4th, 2006 at 11:57:02 PM EST


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