The European Constitution. Some thoughts**

by talos
Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 08:03:50 AM EST

[This was posted as a comment in Jerome's "Non to the Constitution - one year later" thread. Jerome was kind enough to suggest that I post this as a diary, in order to further the discussion. So here are my thoughts/responses to Jerome's earlier story, slightly edited and with a small intro. And now promoted by Jerome]

The aftermath of the rejection of the European Constitution one year on, is under debate. Jerome has made a few points disparaging the "non" vote and suggesting that the vote was an "unmitigated disaster". I respectfully disagree. When presented with a flawed document, especially in circumstances where you know the balance of power is such that its negative points will be dominant, the proper reaction IMHO is not to point to its positive aspects but to a. Fight it and b. Propose an alternative, better, document. As for b the European left has been lacking. But there is much to the idea of putting on the table an alternative Constitution, if only for the effect this will have on shaping the debate.

Anyway, far from being a disaster, I think that the result of the referenda on the European constitution presents an opportunity for the European left, and I'm not convinced by Jerome's arguments for reasons that I explain below:

**From the front page


  • The prospect of a united, democratic (and ultimately confederate) Europe had received a terrible blow before the constitution by the EU's expansion. This signified, I think, that the EU institutionally had absolutely no desire to "deepen" the union and create some forms of strengthened democratic accountability, because, were that the case, the institutional changes required would have taken precedence over geographic expansion. Anything that was bloody difficult with 15 members became bloody impossible with 25 - and not all of the new members were exactly eager to proceed to a tighter union.
  • The fact of the matter is that the third part of the proposed constitution was a neo-liberal manifesto. The fact that it wasn't worse than what was being enacted before, is I think irrelevant: It would have been legitimized as constitutional principle and would be that much harder to oppose. It's the difference between the government passing neoliberal laws privatizing the public utilities and including a passage that states that all utilities should be private in a country's constitution. While such a constitutional amendment might indeed be in practice "no worse" than what was already in place, politically it is vastly worse.I quote from an article  by Bernard Cassen written before the referendum in Le Monde Diplomatique:

...In drawing up this treaty, Europe's governments couldn't resist the golden opportunity it presented to constitutionalise the neo-liberal doctrine. The third section can only be explained as an attempt to set in stone the diktats of free trade and establish the rule of the market once and for all. (Its principles are enshrined on the first page of the document: article I-3 stresses the importance of "free and undistorted" competition in "a highly competitive social market economy". Article I-4 sets out the EU's "fundamental freedoms": placing human beings on a level with commodities, its first sentence guarantees "the free movement of persons, services, goods and capital".)

 - That this wasn't "really" a constitution, is a. debatable and b. beside the point: the fact that it was being advertised as such surely means that the intention was for it to be used as such.

  • "The "non" is seen as a "vote against Europe" by those that don't want to even ponder the alternative. The fact that the "non" vote might have been a vocal vote of no confidence for the policies of the past 15 years, is an idea that no one among the EU's elites wants to ponder, much less discuss. One could reasonably claim that in a EU with a widening democratic deficit the referendum was seen as an opportunity by many to express not only their opposition to legitimizing as a "constitution" the same set of policies that were actually hurting them, but their displeasure at the way the EU project was developing. The "oui" would certainly be seen by these same (powerful) circles as a vote for their particular set of policies. And I'm reasonably certain that this would have been worse. If they can spin the "non" vote, imagine what they could do to the "oui" vote...
  • "We are left exactly with an opaque technocratic body focused on free-trade and markets and little else" - that however is not legitimized by popular vote, and should feel uneasy about it - which it does. The alternative would have been to have the same opaque technocratic body focused on free-trade and markets and little else, with a huge blank check to write policy for the foreseeable future.

  • The neo-liberals are pushing their agenda, pretending that the result (which was partly a condemnation of their policies) meant the exact opposite of what it meant in reality*. This is understandable, but not really convincing. Imagine if the constitution had actually passed however: do you think that they would be in a worse position to push their agenda?

  • The "non" forces are not at all responsible (not in the slightest) for the rise of nationalist policies everywhere, a phenomenon that predates the european referendum by a decade. These forces have indeed made inroads in Europe precisely because the European project has been dominated by neoliberal policies (And anyway they don't seem to be any stronger as a result of the european referendum than they were before). To the extent that the left does not draw a very clear line and doesn't distance itself from these sort of policies, doesn't wake up to the fact that the European agenda isn't hers any more and doesn't actively try to take it back, it will allow displeasure and disenchantment in Europe to spread even wider among the people - and then it will be responsible for the rise of nationalist forces - who are gaining from the EU card exactly because the slide to "a Europe of the markets" is really affecting people, who will thus vote for whoever expresses their discontent in any form.

  • The "Non" forces must indeed proceed more forcefully to state their message. It doesn't help that they are being treated as pariahs in most of the EU's media. As I pointed out in an earlier diary, it seems that the idea of a review of the European constitution in a way that would be pretty much a victory for the left "Non" vote, is being seriously considered. The EU must have a working document of basic principles. The only issue, ever, was what sort of document.

Jerome, I think the logic behind the "left yes" vote has been a contributing factor to the EUs "shift toward the right" and away from democratic accountability. Every bone that was thrown leftwards was heralded as a victory, while all the deep institutional changes and the widening of the democratic deficit in the EU, was dismissed as "circumstantial". Whatever helped in "building European institutions" was seen as positive, no matter what the political balance of power was... There was and is a powerful current within the european left that seems to believe that a. it is in some sort of position of strength and b. that the main issue is to proceed with European integration - and we'll talk about the political "details" after this has been consolidated. Well a.it isn't and b.by then you'll already be living in a US economy version 2.0. The time to draw lines was last year- and it was about time.

* Note the title of this story and compare it with the results of a very recent poll in France:

Apart from the constitution, the great majority favoured building European structures, with 44 percent calling themselves "enthusiastic" and 38 percent saying they were "favourable" against only 8 percent "sceptical" and 7 percent "hostile".

"Everything that's going on in public opinion is suggests the debate is not between 'pro' and the 'anti' Europeans but is more about the nature and the content of the European project," TNS Sofres said.

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Europe had received a terrible blow before the constitution by the EU's expansion. This signified, I think, that the EU institutionally had absolutely no desire to "deepen" the union and create some forms of strengthened democratic accountability, because, were that the case, the institutional changes required would have taken precedence over geographic expansion.

I think this is too simple a view, even if the practical consequences are the same.

Watching the expansion process from an affected country, this is what I saw:

The EU expansion was on one hand a convoluted process where different old EU members had different motives, most of which didn't plan for stopping "deepening". Smaller countries wanted more smaller countries to have a counter-voice against the bigs. Spain hoped for an ally in Poland as medium-sized powers. Germany didn't want to be at the border of the EU and wanted to integrate more markets for its own economy. France initially wanted to torpedo or delay expansion by insisting on a "Big Bang" rather than incremental expansion after case-by-case evaluation. Finally, the British leadership left its original anti-expansion position first for one similar to the initial French one, then hoped for increased influence and freemarketista--anti-superstate allies (all the while British Eurosceptics openly hoped that accession referendums in the prospective new members will fail).

Another aspect of unplanned consequences is that the EU bureaucrats and Western diplomats were naive and ignorant about both the problems us new members brought and the political culture of our elites.

On the other hand, the centre-left dominated Europe for a decade, but wouldn't begin any significant EU reforms in its direction. (Only progressing in open markets policies, which I don't oppose per se, but would want them to be paralleled by more and stronger European-level social, environmental institutionalisation.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 08:42:53 AM EST
DoDo: I'm not saying that the accessions occured as some sort of planned subversion of the EU. There was a dynamic for this quite separate from other considerations. What I am saying is that, given the decision to expand, it must have been obvious to all involved (both those favouring and those against the prospect of a more integrated, democratic Europe), that it would sound the death-knoll for anything remotely like a (quasi)federal, democratic path for the EU. Thus the fact that any sort of Constitution was not brought up before the accession - along with a well defined scheme for integrating these countries, possibly at a smaller pace, but with funding comparable to that received by Ireland and us Mediterraneans - speaks of a fundamental decision (maybe de facto) not to go that course.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 09:23:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I am saying is that, given the decision to expand, it must have been obvious to all involved (both those favouring and those against the prospect of a more integrated, democratic Europe), that it would sound the death-knoll for anything remotely like a (quasi)federal, democratic path for the EU.

But even on that, I'm not convinced. I do not think it was obvious to all - or even that it is a permanent death knoll, or even that it is the primary problem factor at present or back then. At least the EU negotiators (in large part Germans) were optimists, and I remember that small states were then seen as paradoxically (lower weight in the EP than in the Council) the main proponents of EU democratisation. (Maybe Ritter can tell us more with his insider view, if he turns up.)

a well defined scheme for integrating these countries, possibly at a smaller pace, but with funding comparable to that received by Ireland and us Mediterraneans

I think the primary reason behind that was the general budget deficit malaise, not any longer-term decision about democratisation. Now regarding how unfair and integration-hindering that was, I don't know about Cyprus, but hereabouts, two factors mitigate it. On one hand, the relative improvement: starting from much lower than Portugal or Ireland did, a smaller EU contribution is still noticeable. On the other hand, joining (no tariffs) and big differences (local producers' lower prices) in themselves spurned some integration: obviously economic, also popular as fears chiefly related to agriculture are void with the increased exports.

On the counterbalance, I also remember how Bliar tried to push an undemocratic version of deepening EU integration, for example with the idea of an EU directorium formed by the 3-4-6 biggest EU states. So I submit that some knew where they wanted to go.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 10:49:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
to thank talos for this substantial post and to say that I will reply, but probably a bit later only.

I hope others join in.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 08:56:50 AM EST
there are definitively two sides on this debate.. With good argumnets on both counts...

I just wanted to state the obvious.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 09:04:49 AM EST
I have never been able ot articulate my thoughts as to why I supported the 'Non' vote (In the UK we never got around to having a vote).

However, you managed it and for that I thank you

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 09:21:53 AM EST
The key point is that the Constitution was unreadable.  How could a turgid, incomprehensible document be presented to the people for their blind and ignorant assent?  

De Villepin presents the CPE to the nation and all hell breaks loose.  How can it be that a man whose job, repeat whose job it is to lead the country can fail so miserably in that task given the extraordinary resources at his disposal?  Was the reaction to the CPE unpredictable?  Where was the contingency planning?

The problem is not with the document but with the cretins who composed it and presented it.  Discussing the pro's and con's of the Constitution is like discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  It is irrelevant.  There is no leadership in France.

"...these dead shall not have died in vain...and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

by Ethelred on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 09:51:14 AM EST
Right on.
As someone said: The US constitution fits in one pocket. The UN charter fits in the other.


-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 07:06:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The way the Eu constitution was "presented" to the public in Spain was to get a bunch of celebrities (from sports, media, etc) and make posters of them saying "I like Europe". The result was a 77% positive result out of an embarrassingly low turnout of 42%. The character of the institutional campaign was infuriating. Too bad I could not vote 'no' as I was in the process of moving and my voter registration was in limbo at the time.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 07:24:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Below an edited version of my comment in Jérôme's thread.

I'm happy to see talos decided to reply, so that I don't have to play devil's advocate, and can briefly state my personal opinion:


  • I would probably have voted "Oui" for what I saw as small advances in political structure, while (unlike both Jérôme and many "Non" campaigners) I didn't think the Constitution makes much of a difference regarding the neoliberal push. (Though who knows, I may have been swayed by direct exposure to the public debate in France.)

  • With the Merkel government in, the Barroso Commission showing its colours, and even whom I wanted in place of Barroso, Luxemburg PM Juncker having shown anti-democratic instincts over the issue of software patents as Council President, I don't see any practical benefits of streamlined Council decisionmaking in the near future.

  • All in all, I see the issue of the Constitution as rather insignificant today, and a distraction in the larger fight against neoliberalism. IMO with or without the EU Constitution, the EU can only progress in a socialistic-democratic direction (by amendments resp. by drafting a new version) if current political elites (centre-right and centre-left) are replaced in the majority of EU members - and with the current ones, progresses in the other direction with or without the EU Constitution.

  • So I also think debating the "Non" vote today needless polemics in best leftist internal fight tradition.

A special extended note about the neoliberal relationship to the EU. Chiefly Jérôme thinks that Bliar is only Europhile on the surface and Eurosceptic underneath, and that neoliberalism wants to dismantle the EU as a political project.

The first half of this is contradicted by rather strongly Europhile neoliberal parties from Belgium through Germany to Poland or Hungary. Indeed the Eurosceptic har-left in Britain or Scandinavia or some other places has the other extreme view: that the EU is a neoliberal project and nothing else, ever since Monnet. But to prove to sceptics in less neoliberalism-infested countries that neoliberals don't secretly hope to leave or gridlock or dismantle the EU but really want it (to take over), I best point to the neoliberals in the new EU members: their support took the form of supporting and campaigning for their countries' joining of the EU.

Regarding the second half, I think it is a mistake to take the anti-statist preachery of neoliberal ideology at face value. They preach freedom, free markets and a small state, but they want to ensure (create, maintain) the latter two with state heavy-handedness, with no-alternatives policies from above. They need secretiveness and power concentration, an elitist and at the core undemocratic programme. Thus neoliberals aren't complete anti-statists... and the EU fits into their plans as another level. Indeed during the drafting of the Constitution, Bliar himself pursued antidemocratic deeper integration in the form of further power concentration within the Council, with proposals of an EU President or an EU Directorium made up of the 3-4-6 biggest EU member states.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 12:01:56 PM EST
I have to agree with a lot of what you say, particularly about arguing over the past votes.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 05:58:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 from

  "Une mauvaise constitution  
qui révèle un secret cancer de notre démocratie"

[ "A Bad Constitution which reveals a hidden cancer in our democracy"]

 http://etienne.chouard.free.fr/Europe/Constitution_revelateur_du_cancer_de_la_democratie.htm#intro

 


J'ai ainsi trouvé plus de dix raisons graves de s'opposer à ce texte dangereux, et encore dix autres raisons de rejeter un texte désagréable, pas fraternel du tout en réalité. Mais les cinq raisons les plus fortes, les plus convaincantes, celles qui traversent toutes les opinions politiques parce qu'elles remettent en cause carrément l'intérêt d'avoir une réflexion politique, me sont apparues tardivement car il faut beaucoup travailler pour les mettre en évidence. Ce sont ces raisons-là, les cinq plus importantes, sur lesquelles je voudrais attirer votre attention et solliciter votre avis pour que nous en parlions ensemble, puisque les journalistes nous privent de débats publics.

Dans cette affaire d'État, les fondements du droit constitutionnel sont malmenés, ce qui rappelle au premier plan cinq principes traditionnels conçus pour protéger les citoyens.

  1.   Une Constitution doit être lisible pour permettre un vote populaire : ce texte-là est illisible .

  2.   Une Constitution n'impose pas une politique ou une autre : ce texte-là est partisan .

  3.   Une Constitution est révisable : ce texte-là est verrouillé par une exigence de double unanimité.

  4.   Une Constitution protège de la tyrannie par la séparation des pouvoirs et par le contrôle des pouvoirs : ce texte-là n'organise pas un vrai contrôle des pouvoirs ni une réelle séparation des pouvoirs .  

  5.   Une Constitution n'est pas octroyée par les puissants, elle est établie par le peuple lui-même, précisément pour se protéger de l'arbitraire des puissants, à travers une assemblée constituante, indépendante, élue pour ça et révoquée après : ce texte-là entérine des institutions européennes qui ont été écrites depuis cinquante ans par les hommes au pouvoir, à la fois juges et parties .

 my translation:

 " I've thus found more than ten serious reasons to oppose this dangerous text, and still ten other reasons to reject a text which is disagreeable in nature and not at all one which in reality promotes the commonwealth of the society.  But the five strongest, most compelling reasons, and those which cut across all political opinions because they put the worthiness of a period for public reflection
directly in question came to my attention only very late because a good deal of effort was needed before they could be brought to light.  Here are the five reasons, the five most important, to which I'd like to draw your attention and sollicit your opinion, so that we might discuss it together since journalists refuse us a place in the public debate."

  " In this question of public interest, the fundamentals of constitutional law are poorly grasped, and bring into relief five traditional principles conceived to protect the citizenry."

 1. A constitution must be understandable in order that there be a popular vote on its adoption: this text is unreadable .

 2. A constitution does not impose one or another set of competing policies: this text is partisan .

 3. A constitution is amendable: this text is locked [to revision] by a two-fold unanimity.

 4. A constitution provides safeguards against tyrany by the division of the exercise of power among agents whose divided prerogatives check each other: this text offers neither a genuine division of power nor any real check upon its use.

 5. A constitution is not bestowed from on high by the powerful, it is established by the people themselves, precisely in order that they may protect themselves from the arbitrary behavior of the powerful and this by means of an independent constituent assembly, expressly elected for that purpose and dissolved once its work is done: this text formally enshrines European institutions which have been devised over the course of the past fifty years by the ruling officals, at once both judge and party in their own cause .

 [ Each of these points and others is elaborated further in the text available at the link shown above in this post.]

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 12:23:28 PM EST
Regarding the last point, in theory, the Constitution was drafted by an independent constituent assembly (the European Convention), one consisting of delegates of all national parliaments, national governments, the EP and the Commission.

On the other hand, the drafting process was rigged by heavy-handedness not the least from the Convention chairman Valéry Giscard D'Estaing, and then the EU Council re-drafted it.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 01:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 I'm not sure about this point but my impression is that point 5 is intended to express doubts about the popular origins of the initiative for that "constituent assembly".  If it was conceived of the powers that be, by the powers that be, for the powers that be, then its pedigree is suspect from the point of view of some lower-case "d"- democrats.

  That portion which follows, "on the other hand," above, is, of course, what counts in the matter.

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 01:18:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Depends on whether you consider national parliaments (or even the EP) powers-that-be.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 01:27:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 Well, if they ain't, at least they're the hired-help of the powers that be; and that's "close enough" for these purposes, in my opinion.

 ;^)

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 02:59:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if they ain't, at least they're the hired-help of the powers that be

Why would they be?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 05:15:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 Why do people sell out their principles (when they have them) ?

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"
by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 03:48:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not a reply. Why do you think that parlamentarians on the Convention functioned as the hired-help of the powers that be? (And if you think so, why do you think that reps elected directly not into national parliaments but an European Convent would not act as hired-help of the powers that be?)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 10:36:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not that I agree on the 'hired help' characterisation, but people elected to a constitutional assembly have a different mindset than people appointed to a drafting committee on account of their position held for different reasons. And the "Convention on the Future of Europe" was a direct consequence of the debacle of the Nice Treaty, but again wholly top-down.

If you look at the Eurobarometer, you'll see that the European Parliament is the most trusted EU institution (51% v 34%) and the only one trusted by more than half the people, followed by the Commission (46% v. 33%) and the Council (42% v 40%). Gee whiz, the directly elected institution is the most trusted and the National governments is the least trusted. What a surprise.

Maybe people want a Constitution, I don't know (the Eurobarometer seems to say they do) but a committee kickstarted by the Commission to fix the mess created by the Council did not work. How about trying the Parliament, by making the 2009 elections explicitly about drafting a constitution? That way maybe, just maybe, the EP election campaign will revolve around European issues instead of domestic issues.

But as long as the assumption of the political class is that there is not a European polity, it won't happen. The people deserve more credit than "the EU political elite" give them.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 10:48:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the leaner version talos diaried about earlier doesn't get through, and 2009 shall make the Parliament also a Convent (an idea the confederationists as well as the national governments will reject, I note), I think one more change would be desirable: voting lists and campaigning across borders.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 10:58:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 I am not, and I cannot be, greatly confident that "reps elected directly not into national parliaments but an European Convent would not act as hired-help of the powers that be" as political institutions--and the public understanding of the principles of good democratic practice--now stand.

 I believe in general that there is an enormous "deficit" of democracy and of an understanding of it, practically everywhere, including in those nations very pleased to regard themselves as models of democracy.  That means, of course, that, as you rightly suspect, there is indeed every liklihood that the national parliaments --as with popularly-elected assemblies in general--shall fail to rise much above the level of "hired help of the powers that be".

  Having said that, there are relative differences to be recognized; and the fact that I live in Europe--and, more particularly in France-- means that I have found some of them and acted accordingly.

 That should not in the least be understood to mean that there are not quite a few very serious faults in the french practice of democracy.  There are, and I don't even have time to enumerate them all.  Still, in several European nations, in no small part due to the fact that the public has fresh memories of hard, harsh times under very oppressive regimes, there is still a relatively healthier respect for and interest in the importance of the public commonwealth, the public living space and the political life of the nation in which people live.

  This isn't and can't be by itself any guarantee that things shall not become worse; it's merely grounds for the hope that here, relatively more so than other places I've lived, there shall continue to be occasions where, when the government gets up to propositions such as the Euro constitution treaty, or the more recent CPE, there may be a sizable number of people who shall object, and say, "Not so fast, pal.  Uh, no, that ain't gonna happen.  Not without a fight."

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Fri Jun 2nd, 2006 at 01:36:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So are you against(/sceptical of) representative democracy in general?

In that case, if I read you right that you don't see much of a difference between reps elected directly into an European Convent and reps elected into national parliaments delegated into the Convent, how do you imagine a constitutional convention?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Jun 2nd, 2006 at 06:10:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
1. Deepening vs widening.

Yes, the decision was made to widen before we deepened. While that can be discussed forever, there was an overwhelming reason for it (bringing Eastern Europe in as quickly as possible) - and it justified restarting work on the deepening when it was done, and that's was the Constitution was about.

2. A neo-liberal manifesto

And the neo-liberals saw that constitution as a socialist manifesto, because it also gave that same "institutionalisation" to a big number of social rights. We can also argue forever that one aspect of it was stronger than the other, but, to me, this is unconvincing - and the Constitution was acceptable. "Free and undistorted" can mean a lot of things. If you think about energy, it could mean that oil and coal have to be taxed properly because they pollute - pollution is a distortion. Control the debate and you control the interpretation and you control the content. Just because the neo-liberals are ascendant and control the interpretation today does not mean that it will always be so. The Constitution as such is pretty neutral.

3. Non not against Europe

Whether you want it or not, a small half (25 out of 55 in France) of the non vote was a soverienist non. The "we want a better Europe" "non" was, at 30%, a big minority of the pro-Europeans, and they chose to associate with the hard sovereignists to make their point, because they were losing the debate otherwise. Hell, at that time, most governments were of the right. Balkenende, Berlusconi, Aznar, Chirac, Barroso and Blair alongside. The European Council was pushing policies that reflected that majority across Europe. Instead of fighting this at the political level, the non chose the "atomic bomb" of the "non".

4. technocratic body

Being a French technocrat by training, I don't have a problem with well run technocracies. They work. It was focused on free trade because that's the political instructions it was receiving, and because that's the easiest thing to do without political impulse to do more. The Constitution was the way to create that impulse.

5. neo-liberals

Of course the neo-liberals would have continued to push their agenda, but they would have had to face the European builders on the ascendant, with popular legitimacy, instead of facing discredited losers.

6. nationalist forces

Of course the nationalist forces were around. But by joining votes with them, the "non" left has given it a huge boost and huge legitimacy. The nationalists do not care that half of the non disagrees with them, they just see that the non won, and they claim that for themselves, and they push their advantage against the "oui" partisans

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 03:53:24 PM EST
So French neo-liberals were firmly anti-constitution?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 06:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's no such thing as a "French neo-liberal" ;-)

More seriously, the closest thing to one, Sarkozy, is definitely a eurosceptic, or a eurotepid, as you cannot be in government and be eurosceptic in France.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 06:09:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As I said, your view of European neoliberals is constrained by thinking in the French political frame of reference, whereas France's is l'exception in this matter.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 08:59:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Methinks we need a diary or two on the EU political spectrum. Do you feel up to it?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 09:01:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am already three diaries behind schedule...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:17:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, the distinction between members of the PPE and the eurosceptics is relevant, I think.

It's not because all right-wing parties are leaning more towards neo-liberalism that you can taint them all with that. The CDU is hardly neo-liberal, for instance. And the "reforms" in Germany recently were not made by neo-liberals anyway - but certainly under their influence.

The fact that the debate is moving so far to one side does not mean that everybody is a neo-liberal today.

We have to fight the ideas, not the institutional framework. The ideas are dominant and will be whatever the institutional framework. One was structurally better than the other to fight these ideas in the long run.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:20:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the distinction between members of the PPE and the eurosceptics is relevant, I think.

I don't. I think the distinction between the neoliberals (who make up a great part of the European Liberals, a significant part of the EPP, and a smaller part of the European Socialists) and the Eurosceptics (who consist of the British Tories and some assorted others (older wings of the Bavarian CSU, most of the Czech ODS) in the EPP, the Nordic hard right, the sovereignist hard to far right, and some others) is the distinction relevant here.

The CDU is hardly neo-liberal

Major parts of today's CDU are very much ideologically neo-liberal (Merz wing, business wing), Merkel is at least opportunistically so, and there is the neocon wing (Koch resp. Pflüger).

And the "reforms" in Germany recently were not made by neo-liberals anyway - but certainly under their influence.

This gets into the philosophical. As long as "neo-liberal" doesn't go with a membership card, being influenced by neoliberal ideology is all that counts. People can be counted neoliberal if and when they act as such. I hazard to guess that no policymaker on Earth is 100% neoliberal. (That includes Bliar.)

does not mean that everybody is a neo-liberal today.

My point towards you was not that everyone is neoliberal, but that it isn't just Bliar who is, and that there are plenty of neoliberals outside France.

One was structurally better than the other to fight these ideas in the long run.

Why? The one you may think of was just as good at allowing the opposed side to cement itself. But yes, the real fight today should be against the ideas, not about the institutional framework.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 11:20:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The PPE-ED is definitely not a eurosceptic group. That's the whole point of Cameron's noises about taking the Tories out of the European Democrats and into the "Independence and Democracy" group.

The EP groups are:

  • EPP-ED: Christian Democrat and Conservative
  • PSE: Socialist
  • ALDE: Liberal Democrats
  • Greens-European Free Alliance: Greens and Regionalists ("representatives of stateless nations").
  • European United Left-Nordic Green Left: Post-communist left
  • Independence and Democracy: "EU-critics, eurosceptics and eurorealists"
  • Union for the Europe of Nations: Eurosceptic (except for Fianna Fail) nationalists


By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 11:49:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The ideas are dominant and will be whatever the institutional framework.

Sorry Jerome, this is not really true: It's like saying that if your a good jockey you'll win no matter what horse you're riding. There are institutional frameworks that work for and institutional frameworks that work against certain ideas. The actual debate is whether this particular framework is conducive to a leftist policy.

And the clear divide you're suggesting between instutional framework and ideology, is fictitious. Political struggles at some point are expressed through an institutional framework, which in fact is an indicator of what the power balance is. I'm saying that the reason the whole debate and the balance of power has shifted rather dramatically to the right in the EU during these past few years is that the left was way too accomodating to institutional arrangements that were disastrous for its case.

One further point regarding the extreme right: are you saying that the extreme right will top the 19% it got in the previous elections? If it does, in fact, don't you think that the way Sarkozy pretty much endorsed much of its rhetoric last fall, might have empowered them much more than the (radically anti-xenophobic) left?

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:18:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I disagree that the Constitution entrenched the neo-liberal ideology.

As to Sarkozy: of course he is empowering the extreme right. He doesn't care, as long as he is in front of the candidate of the left.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:25:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 I wish I could type faster!

 While I disagree that

 "The actual debate is whether this particular framework is conducive to a leftist policy.",

 and believe instead that the actual debate ought to be about whether the institutions are democratic or not,

 I fully agree with this, and think that it is the absolutely essential and key point to be understood;

 "And the clear divide you're suggesting between instutional framework and ideology, is fictitious. Political struggles at some point are expressed through an institutional framework, which in fact is an indicator of what the power balance is."

  EXCEPT that [the institutional framework or "basic law"] it's not just an indicator, it's a determining factor.

 

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:36:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No argument here. I fully agree with both your points.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 I have in mind--and have for over a week or two--a very pertinent quote on the very important point you've made above.

  It's a quote of Karl Popper, of course, and in it he also makes the same point you have and then explains why your observation is not only important but, indeed, the essential factor in these matters.

 I intend to write it up and then maybe log out and take a stroll, maybe go out for some dinner.

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:59:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 So, as for the above,

 please see the just-posted diary entry

 http://www.eurotrib.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2006/5/31/143526/050

  I'm off to look for some dinner.

 

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 02:37:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. The effects of a hasty widening, however, can be seen to create huge problems for deepening. The inverse doesn't hold.
  2. I think you are missing a key fact here: you're not controlling the debate. And this text doesn't really help you win the debate. The same arguments have been used by the left at every step of the Union's rightward drift - and always the "debate" (whose terms were and are dictated not by the left surely) was confidently controlled by those that set it up... So you wind up accepting treaty after treaty in the prospect that once you "control the debate" it will all be fine, while the facts on the ground proceed, as planned, as intended, to make your controlling anything an ever more distant possibility. At some point the only way a debate can even start is if you start by saying a plain and simple "no".
    The problem is that this isn't just arbitrary heremeneutics. One interpretation is quite a bit more natural than the other. I'm not sure what the neoliberal arguments against the treaty were, but I can't think of any prominent neoliberal that didn't endorse, one way or the other, a yes vote - and that by itself speaks volumes. I mean, I could reinterpret Rambo as a pacifist manifesto, but that isn't exactly the most easily defendable reading of the film, is it? Thus, even though you can in principle define "free and undistorted" competition in "a highly competitive social market economy" as pertaining to pollution, it isn't the most obvious or common sense reading of the phrase, is it?
    Anyway, one can read part III of the treaty and make up his/her own mind about it. I say it is as unabashedly neoliberal as humanly possible at the time. Cassen makes some good points about this - and so did Victor at the time.

  3. I'm not sure about that 25%, it seems too large. Any references? The opinion poll I linked to at the end of my diary seems to suggest that nowadays something like 14% of the French identify themselves as anti-Europe. On the other hand by all measures, the Oui vote captured a clear majority of the left and an even clearer majority of the lower incomes. And what do you mean "associate" with the right? There were only two options: Yes and No. The pro-Non left voted with the (much smaller) pro Non right, while the pro-Yes left voted with the (much larger) pro-Yes right (but no one is as upset it seems with that association).
And why is a popular rejection of a proposed piece of legislation an A-bomb all of a sudden?

  1. Well, focusing on Free trade doesn't create impetus in general, it creates impetus towards a very market dominated Europe. Why is this a good thing? And while technocracies might or might not be a good thing, unelected and unaccountable technocracies are surely a   bad thing, no?

  2. I'm hard pressed to see the gains that the far right has made after the European referendum. One could similarly argue that by voting yes along with Sarkozy and Chirac, the Left Yes voters boosted them. As I said there were two options on the table: Non - in which the left was a majority and Oui - in which the left was a minority. The far right can claim that it invented the wheel for all the good it will do them, in fact one could plausibly argue that a Yes vote would be a vote for perpetuating exactly that set of policies that helped propel the far right to its electoral heights, and thus would have been the real boost for them. Now that the far right does not have a monopoly in expressing the disillusionment of the lower income groups towards the shape the European Project is taking, one could indeed argue that they are much more in danger of losing a good chunk of their electoral base.


The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 09:12:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. Yes

  2. The right has been ascendant for the past 25 years, on the heels of the great Reagan-Thatcher rollback of the State. That's a political fact. If you're unhappy about it, it has to be fought politically.

  3. I have no problem associating with the pro-European right on Europe. I am saying that the non left has no message beyon the refusla of the Constitution, and thus the meaning of the "non" has been easily captured by the sovereignist "non", which his much stronger than 14% in France.

  4. How is the European Commission unelected and unaccountable? It is selected by our duly elected representatives and confirmes by our duly elected MOPs. It has only a power of proposal, as every single directive has to be approved by the European Council and, in many cases (but not as many as if th eConstitution had been put in place) by the European Parliament. If you say the EC is unaccountable, you, again, carry the water of the eurosceptics.

  5. Oh, you'll see next year.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 04:21:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am saying that the non left has no message beyon the refusla of the Constitution

Well, if you don't listen to anything else, you can't hear it... methinks just talos's and proximity1's posts contained more.

the sovereignist "non", which his much stronger than 14% in France

talos quoted a poll. What is your data point for the above claim?

How is the European Commission unelected and unaccountable?

Jérôme, the above could again be an FT job...

You needlessly narrow down "unelected and unaccountable technocracies" to the European Commission, rather than think about the entire EU bureaucracy under them, which executes rules and laws - including neoliberal ones - our governments decided on behind closed doors in the Council, but who evade accountability by pointing at the bureaucrats, and telling us they can't change anything about it.

But even the Commission is certainly unelected by the people, instead selected by elected (or selected) officials. The Commission's (and even more so the bureaucracy's) limited democratic legitimisation can be quantified by the levels it is removed from the people - e.g. 0th level: the People, 1st level: a national Parliament, 2nd level: a national government, 3rd level: the EU Council that calls the shots (even if the EP has mostly symbolic consenting rights), 4th level: Commission. As you yourself argue for a more democratic EU, i.e. in which the EP has a larger weight (which would make the Commission only two levels removed) and the Council less, you should have seen the argument here, rather than use again the "pushing the cart of eurosceptics" rhetoric.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 08:53:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What bureaucracy below the European Commission are you talking about???? That's all there is.

Europe has a smaller bureaucracy than any mid-sized town anywhere in Europe. That argument is one of the stupidest from the eurosceptics and I am really disappointed to see you use it.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:05:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You keep misreading others in this discussion with a vehemence.

I haven't told anything about the size of the bureaucracy.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:15:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You needlessly narrow down "unelected and unaccountable technocracies" to the European Commission, rather than think about the entire EU bureaucracy under them, which executes rules and laws

What am I misreading exactly?

The European Commission IS the whole bureaucracy there is. What other "entire EU bureaucracy below" do you see?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:23:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean the 25 Commissioners is the entire bureaucracy?

What is the size of the EU bureaucracy? [I'll grant you the point that the entire EU budget, including all disbursements, is less than 1% of GDP, so the costs of operating the EU bureaucracy (i.e. excluding disbursements) are minute compared with the returns]

As for "unelected", one of the most influential people in the EU is Solana, who is one further step removed from the people and wears so many hats that it makes my head spin just to think about it.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:32:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU Commission is not just the 25 Commissioners, it's the name of the whole bureaucracy.

This is just silly.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:34:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not silly, it's a real confusion of language. I would tend to think of "the Commission" as the 25 commissioners unless I had some reason to think it meant the entire civil service under them. I suspect there's a cultural difference here.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:37:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think one of you may think of the Commission as the 25 (or whatever) commisioners and the other thinks of it as the entire Commission machinery.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:32:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly, it's like saying that "The Cabinet" is the entire bureaucracy of the State.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:34:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And it's like saying the Civil Service is the entire bureaucracy of the state: both usages are correct in context...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:35:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Political offices are not bureaucracy almost by definition.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:43:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Political offices are not bureaucracy almost by definition."

  LOL!  

  Really?  Whose definition would that be?

 I know a little political office; it's called the "presidency of the United States".  If you doubt that that is also a full-fledged bureaucracy, then I recommend that you take a moment one day when you're not doing anything and have a look at the organigram of the 'Executive Office of the President'.  Try at http://www.whitehouse.gov or
http://www.firstgov.gov  where you'll find this nifty chart

  http://bensguide.gpo.gov/files/gov_chart.pdf

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:14:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What am I misreading exactly?

A gripe about limited democratic legitimisation and control as a gripe about the size of the bureaucracy.

Regarding the issue of what to understand under the Commission, Colman and Migeru show that there could be a cultural/language issue here. Wiki says:

The Commission consists of 25 Commissioners, one from each member state of the EU, supported by an administrative body of several thousand European civil servants divided into departments called Directorate-General.  The term "the Commission" is generally used to refer both to the administrative body in its entirety, and to the team of Commissioners who lead it.

The EU Commission FAQ itself says:

The word 'Commission' can refer to both the institution and to the college of Commissioners. From 2005, the college of  Commissioners will be made up of one Commissioner from each Member State.

So we focused on different meanings, hence the misunderstanding.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 11:40:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Except that if we go for your interpretation you are basically saying that no public administration is ever legitimate. Governments, barely, but "the whole unaccountable bureaucracy underneath it", nope.

That sounds awfully neo-liberal to me. Bureaucracy BAD. EVIL. UGLY. Right.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 11:58:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Grow up Jerome.

Calling people who disagree with your stance names isn't actually getting you anywhere, or hadn't you noticed that?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did not start the name calling.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But a time out will do just fine.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:36:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Except that if we go for your interpretation you are basically saying that no public administration is ever legitimate.

No I'm not. You again insist to misread me. You can do better than that.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 10:21:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Based on 2002 "poll"

  • Le Pen 17%
  • Megret (National Front dissident) 2%
  • Boutin (sovereignist traditional right) 1%
  • Saint Josse ("hunting, fishing, nature, tradition" - populist right) 4%
  • Chevénement (sovereignist left - campaignes specifically on this) 5%

29% of voters in 2002 voted vor candidates that were unambiguously anti-European and made it a significant plank of their programme.
I would also be tempted to add the votes of the trotskysts and the communists, as they have always been anti-Europe, from the start. That would add 13-14%.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:07:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Vote for a candidate is not necessarily due to his/her positions on the EU. To quote another poll, despite wider disquiet and fears, the latest Eurobarometer [pdf!] shows only 15% of French thinking EU membership is a bad thing, with that number hovering between 12% and 18% in the last few years.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 10:51:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even more interesting are the questions about the Constitution. The first is about being for the principle of an European Constitution. The French polled were 67% pro, 21% no. One percent more each think that a Constitution would be necessary for the good functioning of EU institutions. And a full 69% favor renegotiation of the Constitution, while just 16% want it abadoned.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 11:04:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The issue is not support for "a Constitution", it is support for "a Constitution that has a chance of ever being adopted unanimously by 25 countries".

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 11:53:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is the goal to get a good constitution or a lowest-common denominator between, say, L'Ulivo and Samoobrona?

If I can't have a good one I don't want it. Lesser evilism all over again.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:03:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess that's the ultimate difference between the "non" and the "oui" on the left. The belief that no Constitution is a lesser evil than a rejected Constitution. And the belief that a "non" to the Constitution will not be interpreted for a very long tim as a "non" to Europe from France, thus legitimizing the no's from everywhere else that were kept in check by France and Germany's hold of the higher moral ground.

Europe is taken for granted.

I think it's a tragic mistake. But maybe that's the misplaced influence of growing up in Strasbourg with kids whose grandfathers fought a war against their very own brothers.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's a tragic mistake. But maybe that's the misplaced influence of growing up in Strasbourg with kids whose grandfathers fought a war against their very own brothers.
Hey, my grandfather had to post himself on his staircase with a loaded shotgun while his brother and brother in law met with their respective partisans on different floors.

Strasbourg doesn't have a monopoly on that kind of stuff, and a bad constitution can contribute to entrench problems by institutionalizing divides [exhibit A: the Iraqi constitution].

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:22:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And Spain voted 77% for the Constitution.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:23:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
42% turnout.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:24:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See here.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As opposed to the rational arguments of the "non"? "The Turks will invade us". "Unions will be banned". "Your abortion rights will be curtailed". "It's a Christian plot" (or "It's a secular plot"), etc...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:28:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There were no arguments of that kind from the Spanish 'no' camp. They all revolved around the lack of transparency, the unreadable text, the unreformability of the constitution, and so on and so forth. But the debate was skewed also by the press. My sister could not get a sceptical LTE published in El Pais, and it wasn't because there were other sceptical LTEs published. The enforced consensus was deafening.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:31:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's because Spaniard are still self-conscious and want to be better Europeans than anyone else. Hence the rush to be the first to have a referendum, and the lack of a real debate of the text's merits.

The reason the French and the Dutch could afford to vote 'no' is that their europeism is not in question, either externally or in their own self-image.

The French were really the only ones who could stop the Constitution, and they did. If Denmark or Ireland had voted 'no' again they would have been cajoled into revoting "the right way". You can't do that with France.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The French killed "it", and they were the only ones who could do it.

What "it" is we disagree. Maybe only the future will tell.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:34:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The belief that no Constitution is a lesser evil than a rejected Constitution
Actually its a belief that no constitution is better than a bad constitution.
the belief that a "non" to the Constitution will not be interpreted for a very long tim as a "non" to Europe from France
well if it does it will be in bad faith. As the polls that DoDo has posted show, this is most definitely not the case. You're pretty much saying that if I oppose a particular law that is to be passed in parliament, I oppose the parliamentary system.

And, come on, Europe is not on the verge of dissolution, much less of war. As I pointed out before a briefer, more concise version of the Constitution (without the manifestly ideological stuff), has a very good chance of passing (everywhere except the UK that is).

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As I pointed out before a briefer, more concise version of the Constitution (without the manifestly ideological stuff), has a very good chance of passing (everywhere except the UK that is).

manifestly to whom? The proposed constitution was seen as too socialist, too secular, too christian, too federal, not federal enough, too pro-big countries, too pro-small countries, etc...

I don't share your "optimism".

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
manifestly to whom?
To the "non"-left. With the "non"-left, the constitution would pass in France, and I'd wager in Holland. Can you think of anyone who voted against the constitution because it was too socialist, or too federal? A group of any meaningful size, that is.

I'm optimistic about it, I share Cassen's optimism:

There is a second fallacious claim: that a no vote in France or elsewhere would bring Europe to a standstill. In reality, post-no Europe would be the same as pre-referendum Europe: the texts that govern the EU, including the Nice treaty, would continue to apply. There would be plenty of time to negotiate a new, more acceptable constitution.

"But the governments would never agree to sit down and start negotiating again" is the reply. On the contrary. The member states would be only too anxious to create a less cumbersome system for governing the expanded union than the current one, which was designed for a six-member community.



The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:40:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The proposed constitution was seen as too socialist, too secular, too christian, too federal, not federal enough, too pro-big countries, too pro-small countries, etc...

Every non-radical proposal will be seen by some as one of each of these, and IMO the non-radical spectrum is still wide. So the above argument doesn't say much.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 11:02:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The fact that both extremes criticize a proposal usually means the proposal is pretty good. However, in this case [the French 'non'] the centre was too thin so the proposal was not good enough. As has been pointed out, the non-sovereignist left-sing 'non' vote was the swing vote in this case: the "we want europe but not this kind". And the failure to address their concerns is what made the centre not strong enought to hold.

Fabius tried to use the internal PS split as an ego trip, and it didn't work for him, which means there was something other than an ego trip at play.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 11:11:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is the goal to get a good constitution or a lowest-common denominator between, say, L'Ulivo and Samoobrona?

Well, pointedly, yes.

Here I have to agree with Jérôme and disagree with you. I see the EU playing the vital role of binding European political elites into frameworks of debate and cooperation even if not working well towards my political goals. (Like Europe, peace in Europe shouldn't be taken for granted.) Firming that up can be of great value, even if it is a lowest common denominator with crappy appendages (240 pages of it in this case).

Furthermore, the EU has a long history of advances that went like this:

  1. there was a good proposal,
  2. member states found it impossible to agree upon it, and agreed on a crappy version instead,
  3. under the impression of lots of complaints about how crappy it was, and the wear of time, in the framework of another horsetrading, the previously unacceptable was accepted as change.

You make much of the scale-ability of political systems; methinks the above and similar processes in the EU bear no parallels even in federal or confederal states.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 10:53:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You make much of the scale-ability of political systems; methinks the above and similar processes in the EU bear no parallels even in federal or confederal states.
I keep asking about scaleability because if a system doesn't scale well to huge size, it won't work on the EU level. And the EU is its own thing, on that everyone seems to agree.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 11:02:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does the second mean what I thought, that here is an example of some political processes not scaling downwards (to smaller sizes/lower levels)?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 11:15:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the EU process scales downwards to an assembly of sovereign units. In fact, for very small groups of individuals, the consensus (veto) principle does work, but it usually leads to schisms when the group grows to a large enough size and/or is faced with an issue on which a decision must be taken and inaction through lack of consensus is not sensible.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 11:19:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is the goal to get a good constitution or a lowest-common denominator between, say, L'Ulivo and Samoobrona?

No, what you need is the consent of all governments and fifty percent of each national electorate.  At the moment Samoobrona is in the government, as is the the utterly disgusting LPR, so de-facto, maybe yes. A year ago it was the post-communists with everybody being convinced that the next government would be a PO-PiS coalition (including the parties themselves). As for the electorate  fifty percent doesn't mean getting the Samoobrona vote (though some of the peasants who've fallen in love with the CAP might vote for an EU constitution) - most of the post communist and neoliberal vote, plus a small minority of the rest is enough.

by MarekNYC on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 11:25:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would be satisfied with 50% of the people of the EU globally, and the states within which 50% of the people agree. The rest can sit out of the political Europe.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 11:27:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd support a 'core Europe' if all those who aren't initially in it are allowed to join automatically if they   later decide they do want to accept its rules unconditionally - i.e. no negotiation on either side, take it or leave it, but no veto power for the core countries on other EU members joining the core.
by MarekNYC on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 01:49:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a very good point.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 01:53:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is actually a good point - but like talos, given the evidence, and also the EU's history, I am less pessimistic than you about another Constitution version getting through. Fear of another failure and of being seen as the stumbling bock will (already does) motivate governments and EU figures to draw their lines-to-go-no-further differently. Government change in Spain and Italy surely helps.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 11:12:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Honestly, as part of a proper constitutional process, member states should be allowed to opt out and revert to the European Economic Area.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 11:16:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

3. Non not against Europe

Whether you want it or not, a small half (25 out of 55 in France) of the non vote was a soverienist non. The "we want a better Europe" "non" was, at 30%, a big minority of the pro-Europeans, and they chose to associate with the hard sovereignists to make their point, because they were losing the debate otherwise. Hell, at that time, most governments were of the right. Balkenende, Berlusconi, Aznar, Chirac, Barroso and Blair alongside. The European Council was pushing policies that reflected that majority across Europe. Instead of fighting this at the political level, the non chose the "atomic bomb" of the "non".

6. nationalist forces

Of course the nationalist forces were around. But by joining votes with them, the "non" left has given it a huge boost and huge legitimacy. The nationalists do not care that half of the non disagrees with them, they just see that the non won, and they claim that for themselves, and they push their advantage against the "oui" partisans.

 If I favor or oppose some issue or cause for grounds, reasons, which, to me, are sound, the fact that others with whom I share no agreement may also favor or oppose the same issue, though for different reasons, in no way diminishes the validity of my views.  Nor does it in any way imply that I agree with the rationales of these others.

  To insist on this is a mistaken claim.

  Why the very same reasoning doesn't equally impeach your position on the treaty--as there are those with whom you are in general strong opposition who, nevertheless, like you, favored the treaty, I cannot understand.

  I give you the credit of having what are, in your view, sound, valid reasons for supporting the treaty without imputing to you any intended or inadvertent alliance with those who are clearly not among the groups you support.

  Again, why you stubbornly refuse to grant to those, your opponents of the treaty, even those who you know full well not to be in agreement with the motives of the treaty's far right wing supporters, is beyond my comprehension.  It strikes me as quite unfair on your part, and, yet, I'm not accustomed to thinking of you as unfair.  I really don't understand you on this point.

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 04:13:48 PM EST
 on re-write :

  "To insist on this is a mistaken claim"

 is better written as

  To insist on the contrary is a mistaken claim.

 "Again, why you stubbornly refuse to grant to those, your opponents of the treaty, even those who you know full well not to be in agreement with the motives of the treaty's far right wing supporters, the same credit, is beyond my comprehension.  It strikes me as quite unfair on your part, and, yet, I'm not accustomed to thinking of you as unfair.  I really don't understand you on this point. "


"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 04:26:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am saying that the left non has empowered the sovereignist non, given them ascendency, and given them a very real argument against the pro-Europeans in any discussion - "you are against the people", "you are the disconnected elite".

Maybe it would not matter if the left "non" had anything to propose as a replacement, but as they are a minority, powerless, and even within the non coalition, there are hopeless contradictions between the various groups. I mean, they ARE lefties... On Europe, they are getting nowhere, so the only thing we hear now is the anti-Europe non crowd, crowing.

Essentially, the non crowd chose to break the car rather than letting it go (supposedly) in the wrong direction. It's much easier to turn around with a car that works than with a broken car.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 05:02:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Maybe it would not matter if the left "non" had anything to propose as a replacement, but as they are a minority, powerless, and even within the non coalition, there are hopeless contradictions between the various groups. I mean, they ARE lefties... On Europe, they are getting nowhere, so the only thing we hear now is the anti-Europe non crowd, crowing.

 Even accepting all of the above as true, none of it constitutes, then or now, a respectable reason to have supported the treaty, in my view.  Everything you point to is very arguably temporary in nature while the treaty's faults, once voted in, should have been permanent.  

  You still refuse to grant that those who took a different view from yours can be given the credit for having understood all of the above and yet believed in good faith that these points did not in themselves represent valid reasons to vote for the treaty.

  You still ignore without comment that your position, too, inevitably gave "aid and comfort" to factions for which you rightly have no sympathy whatsoever.  Indeed, there is, when we look fairly qt things, no political intitiative which can ever be supported or opposed without also at the same time giving inadvertent support to some factions which one opposes.

  The saying "politics makes strange bedfellows" is a recognition of this fact and it is a very old saying.


Essentially, the non crowd chose to break the car rather than letting it go (supposedly) in the wrong direction. It's much easier to turn around with a car that works than with a broken car.

 I like the car analogy, and, adopting it, here is how I see the matter:

   The "non" crowd understood what the "oui" crowd did not-- that the car was speeding down a single-lane bridge in the dead of night and in the midst of a record-breaking thunderstorm.  And there's one more thing the "non" crowd understood: the bridge was out.

 'Breaking the car,' while true, stopped it until help could come and tow it in for repairs, also saved the lives of everyone on board.  And for their trouble, the "Non" crowd is treated to undying and unjustified ridicule.

  There was a referendum; that supposes two or more legitimate views even if you do not.


"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 11:50:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And for their trouble, the "Non" crowd is treated to undying and unjustified ridicule.

Say what? 'Unjustified' is your opinion. 'Undying' is strange in view of the fact that the topicis barely discussed, and the "oui" crowd is mostly silent. I'm not, but I am in an obvious minority here.


There was a referendum; that supposes two or more legitimate views even if you do not.

Whare did you ever see me consider your view as not being legitimate. I find it wrong, misguided and ultimately counter productive, but I never contested your right to have it. Maybe you are projecting your own anguish about the result of that vote? You certainly seem to have trouble accepting my right to express, politely of vigorously,  the just-as-legitimate opinion that the lefty 'non' crowd made a huge mistake.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Jun 3rd, 2006 at 08:40:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is interesting that the European elites have not accepted that the existing text is dead and will never be ratified. As far as I can see that is the position.

Really the whole process needs to start again at the drafting stage. Neither the national governments or Parliaments nor any existing EU institution (including the Parliament) should have anything to do with the constitution making process once they have set up the process I suggest in the next paragraph (which I accept would need a pre-constitutional treaty agreed to by all member states, if necessary after national referendums).

As I have argued before, in other threads, to produce a constitution worthy of the name there needs to be a constitutional convention directly elected by the peoples of Europe. Whatever they come up with (if anything proves possible) should then be submitted directly to the people in a continent wide referendum on one day. Acceptance by the majority of the voters of a country would constitute ratification by that country (as provided for in the pre-constitutional treaty). If sufficient countries ratify (say two-thirds) then the constitution could then come into force between them.

It may be unlikely that any, let alone all, of the member states would agree to this but at least it is a proposal offering some prospect of movement. Just refusing to accept reality and propping up the stinking corpse of the old constitution, one more time, is pointless.

by Gary J on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 04:33:49 PM EST
Maybe because, having done it once in much more favorable circumstances, they know that it will be impossible to ever agree again on ANY document.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 04:55:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome, if your view is correct then the whole constitutional issue should be dropped. The European Union should be left to evolve instead of being designed.

Operate the system as it is. If particular institutional problems arise produce piecemeal solutions instead of big bang proposals to codify the whole thing.

This is perhaps a pragmatic British answer to the situation. It will be the one which is adopted, without anyone intending it, if the existing constitution cannot be reanimated and no alternative text can be produced.

by Gary J on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 05:10:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it exists because it was designed, and pushed, by "elites". What you are proposing is the typical eurosceptical line, now hiding, hypocritically (the eurosceptics, not you) behind "democracy". It's technocratic, therefore bad. Just like the State is bad, the common interest is bad, liberals are bad.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 05:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Designed" in the past is irrelevant to the logjam surrounding design now. You yourself note the obstacles unanimity poses in the current climate for any constitutional expedition.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 05:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you suggesting that there is any chance of making progress with the european constitution project without democratic support? If that support does not exist, as the no votes in France and the Netherlands suggest, then nothing significant is going to happen on the constitution unless either public opinion changes or a new proposition is submitted to the people for their judgement.

I am sure the British government is happy to sit back and largely ignore Europe, whilst its attention is focused on the ongoing disaster in the Middle East.

Eurosceptics will use whatever arguments comes to hand to justify their opposition to the European Union and all its works.

The British eurosceptics would rebut my approach by saying that it is impossible in principle for the European Union to be a true democracy because there is no European people to generate a democratic polity. They consider that there can be only the individual democracies of the member states.

I presume that they would be happier sweeping away the Commission, the European Court and the European Parliament, so that anything that did happen would be the result of diplomatic negotiation between the member states, which each one individually decided to incorporate into its law.

Since eurosceptics will oppose just about anything which is proposed, the need is to produce something which everyone who is not a committed eurosceptic can live with. From what I have seen in this thread about the breakdown of views in the French no camp, that would be the key to generating a yes majority in France.

It would be much easier to make a pro-European case in Britain if it could be argued that the existing technocratic, top down Europe (which is what I mean by a Europe of the elites) was being replaced by a democratic Europe, deriving its powers and legitimacy, bottom up, from the people of Europe. This would gradually create a European public opinion, so as to produce a real European polity.

by Gary J on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 08:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  There's an interesting contradiction in your underlying assumptions and perhaps because they're underlying assumptions they escape your notice.

  You're arguing on the one hand that whatever "wrinkles" there may have been in the Constitution treaty, they not only could be but certainly should be worked out over time.  On the other hand, your view is that the Constitution treaty was such a work of human effort that it could never be done over, let alone better, ever again no matter how long determined people might work at it.

 It seems to me that when you find it convenient, you have great faith and confidence in people's capacity to fix things-- except for when it comes to supposedly enormous tasks, when your confidence drops to near zero and you count on what can only be described as "miracles".

  Personally, I don't believe in miracles.  What one group of people can produce, another can, too. And, given more time, fairer ground rules, openness and real legitimacy, they can do it better.

  If my gardener did a shitty job on the garden and I didn't like the result, and he told me, "Sorry, but I don't have a "plan B", I'd fire the gardener and get a new one.

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 12:50:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The European Commission had not just a Plan B, but a Plan D for Democracy Dialogue and Debate. After a few months they quietly admitted it was a failure, by saying that what the EU needs is re-branding.

So we're already at "Plan E" and it's failing again... If my gardener tried 5 times and I didn't like any of them I'd fire him and get another one.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 01:03:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 LOL!

 

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 01:11:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not laughing anymore. These people need to go. All of them. And anything they produce (like the proposed Constitution) is stillborn.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 03:30:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To explicitly explain my thinking, whether or not my particular proposals are a non-starter, I do not think there is a current consensus on the detailed provisions of the European constitution.

I therefore suggest that it would be sensible, at this stage, to ignore outcomes and instead to focus on the process which will lead to a set of proposals.

If the process can be agreed then normal democratic political dispute can take place to lead to the creation of a new constitutional text.

Using this approach no one now has to prejudge whether there will be an acceptable outcome. The view they will take on the new text can be decided when it has been drawn up.

by Gary J on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 05:00:11 PM EST
Too many people are happy without a Constitution. It won't happen, as it required unanimity. It's too late now.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 05:03:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 Eurotribune could take up as one of its ambitions the task of joining and promoting the common effort needed to forge the consensuses which shall revive a more soundly-founded movement for a charter document for the European Union.

  Seems to me that a guy who does not shrink from the formulation of an energy policy for the recalcitrant United States might have no trouble recognizing the obvious opportunity for advancing the cause of a fair and united Europe--and making his mark for himself and for Eurotribune in the process.

  Advocates of real democracy and of fairness in public affairs are always needed and always in short supply.

  Why not this place?

  I've wondered-- and I hope it isn't the case that the main impetus for creating Eurotribune was just the very idea of championing the former Euro Constitution treaty referendum's "OUI" vote, since both Euro tribune and the referendum are both roughly a year old.

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 02:45:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope it isn't the case that the main impetus for creating Eurotribune was just the very idea of championing the former Euro Constitution treaty referendum's "OUI" vote, since both Euro tribune and the referendum are both roughly a year old.

Wow. European Tribune's very own conspiracy theory.

(Dare I suggest you try an icepack on that fevered imagination, proximity? ;) )

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 04:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

 Sure, be my guest!  

;^)

You know, that bit above was some purely fanciful speculation and does not represent anything that could be called a "considered opinion".

  I posed it and meant it innocently; because it occurred to me that way.

 I'll not only take your ice-pack suggestion under real consideration, I won't hold your offer of it against you, either!  It's a free forum. (, right?)

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 04:57:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"(, right?)"

Of course.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 05:16:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yo, it is quite fun to see how this "constitution" is still a hot spot for some ( isnt it, Jerome ;-) )

frankly i have been quite happy to see millions of french interested by their future, it was an interesting democratic moment, it was positive.

i didnt even vote, it was useless for me, Turkey helps me to understand that Constitution or not, the Europe i dreamt since 1992 was dead, a ridiculously large and diverse group of countries can not be more than a free market at best.

by fredouil (fredouil@gmailgmailgmail.com) on Thu Jun 1st, 2006 at 10:14:58 AM EST
i think the repercussions of deciding prematurely on what europe 'stands for', before there is more of a true european polity, would be too great, therefore caution is needed.

i don't see the car broken, but the model dated, and not reflective of the best tech available.

the biggest problem is language, imo.

until more people can express and understand more nuance in english, we will have continued political fragmentation, as leaders can only emerge within the enclaves of brussels and strasbourg.

when leaders can tour the whole continent and pick up transnational support as great or greater than they can in their own respective countries, then we will start to feel the head and tail of europe connected, on a political and a cultural level.

as our americans have suggested recently, we have much to offer the world-as-is, and yet each country feels that way, without really 'getting' a continental sense of identity of any serious weight yet.

we need more of this, and it will take time, highly dependent as it is upon the proficiency developed in english as the most effective barrier-breaking tool.

the translarion efforts right now are admirable, and have taken us far, but there is too much friction and time/energy lost in the transmission, above all from the head to the tail, where the language problem is more than just choice of 'which', but more 'how'.

there is profit in obfuscation, and bureaucracy needs to be translated first into an english everyone can understand....transparent, then into the other eu languages.

people are coming to the end of their patience with corporatist, jargon-ridden, legalese-couched tomes they feel insulted by.

can we hammer out a brief constitution that unites us as well as the
the us model has done for america - until recently!?

i do not share jerome's fatalistic assumption that we had our only chance, and let it slide by, and now it's all over.

i just think it's early days still, and we are being asked to formulate a common vision we are still too immature and uninformed to create and share.

i feel your pain jerome though, and admire very much how you have spoken your thoughts and maintained dialogue at high level with many who disagree, sometimes quite polemically.

it you're right i would feel equally sad, but i share some of the others' optimism that we have what it takes to create a constitution, and this was an illuminating exercise - not just a failed coup.

the americans had a fine, even genial one, and now look!

so we need to learn from that and place even more accent on checks and balances than they did, which was already historic.

because as we know and should remember always, europe has seen what happens when too much power accrues to too few people.

the more people get interested in politics, the better politicians we'll have, as there will be more eyes on them, and a bigger pool to choose from.

right now it's blindingly obvious the cream is NOT rising to the top.

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do." Jim Hightower

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jun 3rd, 2006 at 03:19:29 PM EST


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