European Tribune

What it takes to attack Iran

by STA
Tue May 9th, 2006 at 11:47:53 PM EST

In my view, nuclear ambitions won't suffice. It will be Iran's collaboration or direct role in terrorism that will justify war.


Since I joined this site only recently, I missed some of the discussions about Iran, especially the gnomemoot. In a couple of threads, the question of Iran has come back and I certainly think that it is worth pursuing, particularly what Europe could do to help. But starting with worse case scenario of a real war.

Many learned Iranians and others in the know seem to think that it could happen this year, before the US elections. I am frankly skeptical, unless...

US goes alone to war: this is the most likely and the least efficient situation. It would lead to an upsurge of terrorism and would lead to much greater hatred. This can only happen when the next 9/11 attack, whenever it occurs, will be traced back to Iran.  

EU helps : This is less of a possibility unless this kind of news could be true:

The Army now believes that the Lynx helicopter shot down over central Basra at the weekend was most probably hit by a surface-to-air missile, obtained possibly from neighbouring Iran, after missile casings were discovered on the third floor of a nearby building, security sources in the city said yesterday.

The more damage is tied to Iran, the more likely it is that there could be a coalition for a war.  
Iran's nuclear plans are mostly for internal politics; it is a distraction and illusionary hopes of grandeur. It won't provide the excuse needed for the war. Iran's direct connection to future attacks may.

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You may well be right about the need for a terrorist provocation, but the claim that Ahmadinejad threatened to destroy Israel does give the war propaganda a boost. As Juan Cole says says, (and you have confirmed) this claim is false and based on a mistranslation.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 12:49:49 AM EST
No doubt it gives it a boost. Let me make this even more direct of an issue: almost every morning I wake up to headlines that quote Ahmadinejad and almost every single one of them is a very loose translation or is criminally a-contextual.
by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:10:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Question: do you know of a source of Ahmadinejad's letter in Farsi, and is the published English translation (diaried with a full quote here on ET) in any way misleading?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:26:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The letter was written in English, or at least was translated by the Iranian authorities and delivered to the Swiss Embassy in English.

It's on Ahmadinejad's own web site in English here.  I believe this is the Persian version.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:22:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's correct. The translation -- though I have not done a line by line comparison yet -- seems fine. But I cannot tell you how embarrassing this is though.

In Iran, much like the rest of the world, especially France, the president is supposed to speak very well his own language. When I used to teach French at the Alliance Francaise, I would tell my students to listen to Chirac, not for the content but for the good grammar and pronunciation.

With Ahmadinejad -- and another president comes to mind -- his own beautiful native language is butchered. This letter, like the rest of his speeches, sounds like a teenagery letter to the editor of a local high school.

by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:33:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would go even further and say that the U.S. is at some level not as worried about Iran as Europe is. Europe has two problems that the U.S. doesn't have: Local nature of the conflict, and higher dependence on imported oil.

America burns way too much oil. We're wasteful, while Europe is efficient. But if the supply of oil drops due to turmoil in Iran, the U.S. could become more efficient, quickly, by some simple changes to behavior. It would be hard, but perhaps the U.S. would not be in as dire of a situation as Europe. As far as I know this has not been discussed here.

Also there is the problem of Europe having borders with both Iraq and Iran, while the U.S. is several thousands of miles away. What happens when the conflict spills over into Turkey, then Greece, then Bulgaria? Will the Moors return to Spain? I doubt it, but it's a bigger threat to Europe than to the U.S.

If we make it to the end of this year without starting WW-III, and if the Democrats get a majority in Congress, then there is a good chance (I think) of a newly isolationist foreign policy.

by asdf on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:02:28 AM EST
What happens when the conflict spills over

Conflict between whom?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 05:51:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The conflict between the US and Iran that the US is not so involved in as Europe. Aren't you paying attention?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:23:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to admit, the US has not been as involved as the EU in several years of actual diplomacy, so the Americans do have a point. If Iran is not a problem, why don't the EU3 [and Russia] just walk away?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:26:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be because the US refuses to engage in diplomacy with Iran on "principle".
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:48:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Um, who said it is not a problem?

There used to be some definitional difference between "a problem" and "armed conflict spilling across borders."

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:57:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe the armed conflict that is spilling over borders is the one that has already spilled from Afghanistan to Iraq. But I don't think asdf means that.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 07:01:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If Iran is not a problem, why don't the EU3 [and Russia] just walk away?

What if the diplomacy is not meant to deal with Iran but with the spoiled brat itching for a fight in the White House?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:23:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How are they "dealing with" him, exactly? The EU3, that is.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's called "appeasement".

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The conflict between Iraq, Iran, and Israel, mostly. With assistance in the form of weaponry and financing on all sides by the U.S., Russia, Europe, etc.
by asdf on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:53:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean the second proxy war on Iran by the US?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 08:54:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What happens when the conflict spills over into Turkey, then Greece, then Bulgaria? Will the Moors return to Spain? I doubt it, but it's a bigger threat to Europe than to the U.S.
Have you been taking history lessons from Jose Maria Aznar at Georgetown, or what?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 06:27:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think WWIII is around the corner. As I said in my original post, it would take the use of nuclear weapons from either side before that becomes a possibility. But I'll try to get to this issue in a separate reply.

Regarding the oil question: if Iran is attacked, then a lot of people, including Europeans would be in pain.

But people neglect another aspect: Iran would be in a worse shape than anybody else. It depends heavily on its oil export, but more crucially, it depends on foreign refineries; it cannot use its own oil.The government in place has ruined the economy and its infrastructure. It is now one of the least economically efficient countries in the region. Iran cannot afford the war either.

One of the reasons the issue of nuclear power -- and not arms -- is important is precisely because Iran is unable to provide for its own energy needs.

by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:20:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you know whether Iran has a strategic gasoline reserve? If I were Ahmadinejad I'd be stockpiling gasoline.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:24:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They do, but it is not clear how much they have in reserve. That would just require too much planning on their part. Instead: "Iran and Indonesia have signed a deal to develop an oil refinery in Java worth up to $5bn". That's how they're dealing with the problem I mentioned before.  
by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:58:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I called my father to ask about this and he is convinced that they have practically nothing in terms of reserve. They actually sometimes have to import oil because it is so corrupt and disorganized. This is one reason I am less worried about nukes than others. These people are quite incompetent.
by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 03:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

America burns way too much oil. We're wasteful, while Europe is efficient. But if the supply of oil drops due to turmoil in Iran, the U.S. could become more efficient, quickly, by some simple changes to behavior. It would be hard, but perhaps the U.S. would not be in as dire of a situation as Europe. As far as I know this has not been discussed here.

I seriously doubt that. There simply are no alternatives to cars in the US, whereas the alternatives do exist in Europe.

Also, a lot of Europe's imported oil is coming by pipelines from Russia or from "internal sea" transport in the Mediterranean and is unlikely to go anywhere else than Europe. It's Asia that's really badly dependent on Middle Eastern oil.


Also there is the problem of Europe having borders with both Iraq and Iran, while the U.S. is several thousands of miles away. What happens when the conflict spills over into Turkey, then Greece, then Bulgaria? Will the Moors return to Spain? I doubt it, but it's a bigger threat to Europe than to the U.S.

Turkey has borders with Iraq and Iran, which is not quite the same thing as Europe (yet - but this is another debate). The US has 150,000 soldiers in Iraq and a lot more nearby, so is providing a wealth of targets in the region.

As to your comments on the Moors, I hope they were in jest.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:32:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are no real alternatives to cars in Iran either. Gas is about 10 cents a liter there and little has been done in terms of public transportation.
by STA (sta.blog@gmail.com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:45:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They could barter their oil to China in exchange for all those second-hand bicycles the Chinese no longer need </snark>

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:49:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
little has been done in terms of public transportation.

Tehran metro is expanding (every year since 1999). Railroads too, though primarily meant for freight - but lately, there were tenders for Tehran suburban railways.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:13:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A few things to note.

Firstly, Iran's civil nuclear programme is some thirty years in the making - the plan that is being worked to was initially developed under the Shah in association with Westinghouse. Whilst there was a cessation of planning in the early years of the Islamic Revolution, the programme was revived in the late eighties and has been gathering pace ever since, in spite of repeated attempts in the early to mid nineties to stymie it.

Iran's own justifications for the programme are plausible and rational - its hydrocarbon reserves are finite, its domestic energy demand is growing, and it makes sense for it to diversify its energy supply system o that it can maintain its stream of export revenues at a time when oil prices are on an ever-upward trajectory. The nuclear industry - and the technical, scientific and managerial skills required to develop it - are key markers of "state modernity", and this is something to which Iran aspires; there is nothing suspect in this.

The key to the dispute is the mastery of the nuclear fuel cycle - which has a dual-use capacity. Iranian officials are quite consistent in their rejection of weaponisation, but they are also quite honest about the strategic benefits of having the capacity to weaponise so as to counter threats ( ie the USA ); this is a purely defensive response and could easily be mitigated if the Bush administration were to repudiate its regime change objectives and sit down at the negotiating table.

As regards the Telegraph story, it is of course possible that the Lynx was downed by a SAM; however, it should be noted that Iraq had thousands of SAM's that were looted from arms dumps, along with a vast array of other weaponry. US and UK officials have been making statements regarding Iran's supply of materiel to insurgents ( unlikely ) and Shia militias ( likely ); they also have a tendency to repudiate many of these statements - the most notable example of late was Rumsfeld saying that they had proof of IED kit being transferred from Iran, and then being explicitly contradicted by Peter Pace, standing at his side, during a Pentagon presser.

The problem with the "finding a pretext" approach is that the Iranians actually have to do something that gives you a pretext; this is just not going to  happen. There is doubtless a dirty war going on in the shadows - bombs go off in Ahvaz or Khorramshah and a few days later MoD squaddies get targetted in Amara or Basra - but this all falls within the realms of covert ops with plausible deniability ON BOTH SIDES.

The UK and US are playing a very dangerous game with this - the Iranians have explicitly said that they have evidence of US and UK involvement in attacks within Iran, and their ability to produce a rabbit out of the hat ( like the 2 SAS men badly disguised as Mehdi army caught in Basra last autumn ) should never, never be underestimated.

In the broad sense, there is no coalition for a war against Iran, that has the potential to escalate wildly out of control very quickly and will, de minimis, cause severe damage to the global economy.

The only country that really wants to do this is Israel ( they've been working on the US to do it since 1991 ) and they have the support of a faction, that is in political difficulty, in Washington. Without a coalition that willingly and overtly involves Iran's neighbours ( ie Azerbaijan, Turkey, Iraq, Kuwait the UAE, Qatar, Pakistan and other ) and the operational basing/airspace corridor rights that would be necessary, a military strike becomes very, very complicated and highly uncertain in achieving its objectives ( and at this stage you cannot even get a coherent clarification of US objectives with regards to Iran beyond "we'll do anything to avoid talking to them" ).

by londanium on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 09:21:06 AM EST
The problem with the "finding a pretext" approach is that the Iranians actually have to do something that gives you a pretext;

Where were you in 1998? </snark>

however, it should be noted that Iraq had thousands of SAM's

Which, BTW, got there in the first place at the special behest of the Reagan-era CIA leaders.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:03:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
India, UK, France....
by londanium on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 11:26:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where were you during the run-up to and the media exposures aftermath of Desert Fox?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 01:14:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the 2 SAS men badly disguised as Mehdi army caught in Basra last autumn

What's the deal with that? Only this week The Independent mentioned the story in passing and described them as "spies gathering intelligence about the insurgency", which I think is bullshit. What were they really up to?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:15:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Mehdi Army claimed they were provocators with bombs.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The British press acknowledged they had been caught with a car full of explosives, that wss not under dispute in October. It seems to have been conveniently forgotten by whoever wrote the hit piece on "Blair's terrible legacy" in The Independent the other day.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 10th, 2006 at 10:21:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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