Summer Evening Open Thread

by Fran
Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:33:37 AM EST

Were I live, it is an absolutely delightful summerday - like out of a picture book, as my grandfather would have said.

How was your Sunday and any other news you want to share.


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EUROPEAN NEWS
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:35:24 AM EST
BBC: Madrid marchers reject Eta talks

At least 200,000 people marched through Madrid on Saturday, demanding the government call off planned peace talks with the Basque separatist group Eta.

The march was called by Spain's right-wing opposition and associations of victims of attacks by armed groups.

Participants carried banners reading: "Negotiations, not in my name".

Eta declared a permanent ceasefire on 22 March, and in May Spain's Socialist prime minister announced his intention to open direct talks with the group.

Some victims' associations say the government is dishonouring the memory of those killed by Eta over four decades - though others have distanced themselves from the demonstration organisers.


by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:42:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me point out that the victim association is split now. Basically, each region of spain has broken with the central board that rules the victim association.

Also point out that other smaller victim associations and regional boards have been very vocal and critic of the present board for his links to the rigth-wing party PP.

SO, if the demonstration was about how many victims do share the message, I would see a majority but not a very clear majority (at the spanish level). At the catalan level , the support by ETA victims to the national victim association is almost non-existent.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 03:53:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Let's sacrifice another thousand troops in Iraq so the twenty five hundred who have died so far will not have done so in vain"?

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:28:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But aren't peace talks about the future, and not clinging to the past. As South Africa demonstrates, you only get peace and reconciliation when you accept that you cannot live in the past anymore.

N Ireland's continuing low-level tragedy is that it cannot accept that the past is gone and only the future can be changed. The demands of long term peace and short term justice cannot always be reconciled and it requires bravery to seek the harder path for the long term. Cowards hide behind victims for short term gain.

By embracing these demands to reject discussions they effectively reject the hope of a peaceful future for an unattainable victory in the name of the past.

they are fools.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:29:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be really easy for Britons to understand it if they cared: it's like confusing Britain and England, and over the last couple of weeks there has been a controversy over a "flag ban" over concerns that flying the English flag might "offend" the other nationalities within Britain.

It's really not caring to know rather than inability to understand.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:38:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, reply to the wrong comment... Gnomes delete parent, please?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:39:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I went to delete the parent...but it takes out yours and Alex's...so will leave it...

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:59:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok I re-posted my comment in the right place, you can delete this sub-thread bob!
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:02:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I reposted everything now.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:04:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I must admit I still don't get the British isles nationalities. I understand Bretons, Alsaciens, Corsicans, Basques, Catalans as distinct cultural entities, but not as "nations". They are part of the nation of France, just like Wales is part of the United Kingdom.

But then I understand "New Caledonia" as a nation, so I guess I could easily make the jump and declare Welsh their own nation. At what point should I make the jump? (I must admit I don't know why I consider New Caledonia to be its own nation, but distance probably helps subconsciously). When there is a local parliament? But then if that parliament has to follow national laws, then doesn't that equate to Regional Councils? And then what about the US? Is Utah a nation?

[/argh]

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:43:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I do understand is that this gives the Brits more chances of winning a football or rugby world cup.
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:44:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, if England had subsumed Wales and had Ryan Giggs in various competitions in the last 15 years...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:05:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Arrgh! we're trying to kill this subthread: repost your comment in the right place!

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:09:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bob, you can delete this thread, my comment will be reposted.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:11:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No offence meant, but this just means you have no idea of British history ;-)

BTW, you replied to a post of mine which was in reply to the wrong post... maybe you could cross-post to the right place?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:46:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Scotsman: Israel's Olmert eyes Europe support on Hamas, Iran

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert begins on Sunday his first visit to Britain and France, where he will likely seek a strong European stand against the Hamas-led Palestinian government and Iran's nuclear programme.

In talks with Prime Minister Tony Blair and French President Jacques Chirac, Olmert will also lobby for his West Bank redeployment plan, which has won U.S. praise but faces political hurdles at home and the misgivings of moderate Arabs.

As top European Union powers, Britain and France have played supporting roles in navigating a beleaguered "road map" to Israeli-Palestinian peace. Along with Germany, they have also led Western bids to curb Iran's atomic ambitions through talks.

Yet many Israelis see the Europeans as less reliable Middle East powerbrokers than their U.S. ally, a view bolstered by reports of anti-Semitism among Europe's growing Muslim minority.

"It (European Union) is the weak link, but Olmert has the advantage of coming with a plan under which he is willing to give up territory," an Israeli official said, referring to a proposal to remove dozens of Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank while annexing others in the absence of peace talks.


by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:47:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"It (European Union) is the weak link, but Olmert has the advantage of coming with a plan under which he is willing to give up territory,"

WTF does that mean? If the EU is a "weak link", why bother courting its support? But isn't that what Olmert's doing, with his "plan"? Is "reliable broker" US not enough? And if there's a shift in power perception because GWB looks more and more like a busted flush, why must Israel go on disparaging the EU?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 02:13:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps I am being too charitable, but the phrase could have been intended to mean "weak link in terms of a solid support chain for his plan," and not "weak link in the war on terror" or "weak link in the chain that strangles the middle east" or whatever.
by Zwackus on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:17:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Independent: Britain accused of U-turn on public scrutiny of EU

Britain will face furious accusations of "betrayal" from its European neighbours today as the Foreign Secretary, Margaret Beckett, tries to water down moves the UK once championed to open EU law-making to public scrutiny.

At a meeting of EU foreign ministers Ms Beckett will argue that plans to allow television cameras into almost all discussions on legislation go too far, too fast. She will also suggest that such proposals will force negotiation into informal and private discussions in the corridors away from the glare of the cameras.

The new minister's stance has provoked anger because achieving greater openness was a theme of the UK's six-month presidency of the EU which ended in December. When Tony Blair agreed to the European constitution he backed the principle of transparency which was written into the text. Then, when the constitution was rejected in referendums in France and Holland, the UK argued that greater openness was one of the measures that would help restore confidence in the EU.
One EU diplomat said there was "surprise" that reservations were coming from "the country which was promoting the topic during its presidency".

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:53:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...that even self-respected newspapers make the mistake:

Then, when the constitution was rejected in referendums in France and Holland, the UK argued that greater openness was one of the measures that would help restore confidence in the EU.

There is a long way to go... Not Holland. The Netherlands.

The core of evil is a lack of empathy

by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 04:20:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This would be a common mistake in the UK where the terms Holland/Netherlands are used interchangably. Most of us refer to the Dutch national team as Holland.  I have read that there is an important difference as far as the Dutch are concerned, but it remains largely unknown to us.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:20:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be really easy for Britons to understand it if they cared: it's like confusing Britain and England, and over the last couple of weeks there has been a controversy over a "flag ban" over concerns that flying the English flag might "offend" the other nationalities within Britain.

It's really not caring to know rather than inability to understand.


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:39:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...that anything with "Dutch" in the English language is actually meant to make Dutch look bad. I thought it was mostly coincidental... until yesterday.

Linguistical spite. It's even more subtle than France bashing.

The core of evil is a lack of empathy

by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:52:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I always try to use "Netherlands" ever since I lived there. It's evil hard trying to write a World Cup report on a game and remember to use Netherlands whilst the commentators bang on about "Holland"... ;-)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:02:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I must admit I still don't get the British isles nationalities. I understand Bretons, Alsaciens, Corsicans, Basques, Catalans as distinct cultural entities, but not as "nations". They are part of the nation of France, just like Wales is part of the United Kingdom.

But then I understand "New Caledonia" as a nation, so I guess I could easily make the jump and declare Welsh their own nation. At what point should I make the jump? (I must admit I don't know why I consider New Caledonia to be its own nation, but distance probably helps subconsciously). When there is a local parliament? But then if that parliament has to follow national laws, then doesn't that equate to Regional Councils? And then what about the US? Is Utah a nation?

[/argh]

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:01:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I do understand is that this gives the Brits more chances of winning a football or rugby world cup.
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:02:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? If there was one UK rugby team, one UK football team, they might stand a better chance yet...

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No offence meant, but this just shows how little you know of British history.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:04:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But why should he ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:10:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why should he what? Be offended, know the history, or get the nationalities?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:15:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why should he know the history and understand the nationalities ?

He's in Toulouse: Britain's internal vanities are of no useful concern whatsoever, except for amusement purposes.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:23:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is something euphemistically known as The Troubles where people got blown up to bits for "Britain's internal vanities".

I said "no offence" by which I mean that I understood he had no reason to think there's more to it than vanity, on which I disagree with you, even though I am not British. I am as bold as I am ignorant, as you know.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:26:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is something euphemistically known as The Troubles where people got blown up to bits for "Britain's internal vanities".

N Ireland is not in Britain.

England = England

England  + Wales = Britain

Britain + Scotland + Scottish islands = Great Britain

Great Britain + N Ireland  + lots of offshore islands like Isle of Man & Channel Islands = United Kingdom

As for what the Ulster troubles were about, it's complicated to the point that if you were to go around Ulster and ask 100 people what the issues really were, you'd probably  get 101 contradictory answers. However, most people in Britain were of the opinion that it had little to do with us, even if that was a little self-serving and evasive.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:46:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for clarifying the terminology. I will from now on never use "Britain" to mean "Great Britain" or "UK".

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:49:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Same here, I had no idea! the horror, the horror :)
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:52:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's already unnerving enough that Brittany and Britain both translate as Bretaña in Spanish.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:54:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does Great Britain then becomes Gran Bretaña...? I see a traumatic youth in development...

The core of evil is a lack of empathy
by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:06:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and an hijo de la Gran Bretaña is a son of a bitch.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:07:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
hehe and por supuesto means poor bastard
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:09:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are there any children still born in Spain named Bretaña...? Linguistical spite in Spanish too, eh?

The core of evil is a lack of empathy
by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I finally understood your questions. No, Brittany is a girl's name that has no translation.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, if Great Britain and Ireland are "The British Isles", and Great Britain is "Great Britain", surely Ireland must be "Little Britain"?

Sort of like Mallorca and Menorca (Mallor = Larger, Menor = Smaller).

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:01:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha, why don't you find an Irishman and suggest that. How about Colman ? I'm sure he'd only ban you from the site for a few months.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:04:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the issue of things "not having to do with whomever", I'll just quote Terence: Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto, which just means that, humans being curious creatures, we like to stick out noses where they don't belong.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:53:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I seem to recall during the Ulster troubles people were blown also up to bits in the English heartland?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but that's what I meant by complicated. There were all sorts of enemies being dealt with and guns were being pointed in all directions.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:05:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was addressing the "evasive" part of your comment.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:09:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't want to spoil the fun, but have you got a reference for that "England + Wales = Britain" ? I've never heard of it, and Wikipedia seems to disagree with you. "Britain" is just used for short, in place of "Great Britain".

Historically "Great Britain" is so named by contrast with the smaller Britain, Brittany, called Armor(ica) until Britons migrated there as the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, etc, advanced into what is now England (C6 and on).

OTOH, you're quite right that the full national title is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:08:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, that explains Bretaña = Brittany.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:11:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have no reference except to say that it is a common assumption.

The Cross of St George currently flying from practically every car in England isn't really the English flag at all. It is instead the symbol of English subjugation of Wales under Edward II as it was his banner and was flown from all of the castles built to enforce occupation as a symbol of his rule.  It has been the flag of Britain, as in the construct England and Wales, ever since.

As Wales has a flag, it has become a de facto flag of England, 'cept of course it isn't.

So when scotland was finally defeated Britain became Great Britain.

And I wouldn't trust wikipedia one byte. It's just the rubbish last input.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:45:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 Helen,

 Have you got a copy of Whitaker's Almanac handy? --any edition should serve.  Look in there for the reference to the formal "legal" name for Britain.  I bet you'll find it in the headers to its summary info on various nations of the world.  Most general almanacs list the nations of the world and state the formal names--as well as specifying their components!

 Britain = England /*, Wales, Scotland, & the highjacked bits of Eire-- [England: /*excluding of course a recalcitrant bit surrounded by England and going by the name of "Yorkshire"].

 ;^)

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:16:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the CIA World Factbook says
conventional long form: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland; note - Great Britain includes England, Scotland, and Wales
conventional short form: United Kingdom
abbreviation: UK


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:19:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

 Since when does the C.I.A. get anything right?

    ;^)

"In the interest of democracy, repressive actions were taken; In order to preserve democracy, repressive actions were taken"

by proximity1 (proximity1-at-free-dot-fr---end-o'adresss) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:22:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, sorry I don't have Whittaker's. However a browse of the web was illuminating.

Many references to common usages, many of which had Britain as another name for the entity 'Great Britain'. However, the word unofficially seemed to crop up at inconvenient times in all these definitions. Which led me to being quite confused.

Maybe there isn't a hard and fast definition as I expected, just accepted usages of which none have ever been officially defined.

In which case I would accept that mine is an uncommon set of definitions and will stand corrected. But I don't think I'm officially wrong either.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:36:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What does the Oxford English Dictionnary say? It has the advantage that it gives you the earliest [known to Oxford] use of each meaning.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:37:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Osford English Dictionnary:
Britain 1. a. The proper name of the whole island containing England, Wales, and Scotland, with their dependencies; more fully called Great Britain; now also used for the British state or empire as a whole. After the OE. period, *Britain  was used only as a historical term, until about the time of Henry VIII and Edward VI, when it came again into practical politics in connexion with the efforts made to unite England and Scotland; in 1604 James I was proclaimed `King of Great Britain'; and this name was adopted for the United Kingdom, at the Union in 1707. After that event,  South Britain  and  North Britain  are frequent in Acts of Parl. for England and Scotland respectively: the latter is still in occasional (chiefly postal) use. (So  West Britain , humorously or polemically for `Ireland'.)  Greater Britain  is a modern rhetorical phrase for `Great Britain and the colonies', `the British Empire', brought into vogue in 1868.


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:43:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wish I had access to the OED (perhaps someone does). But, in the meanwhile, here's a useful page at answers.com that pulls together explanations from a number of sources.

I know the official use of "Great Britain" (= England + Wales + Scotland) dates back to 1603, when James VI of Scotland also became James I of England (and Wales). The actual union of the kingdoms (of England(Wales) and Scotland) came a century later, with the Act of Union of 1707.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do have access, but it's hideously clumsy to use as it involves logging on remotely to my old university account and using a text-only browser [the university library has an institutional subscription to the OED].

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:17:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, here are the quotations under Britain in the OED: (The things in {}-braces are non-latin letters I did not feel like finding html encodings for)
(No separate OED entry for Great Britain exists)

a855 O.E. Chron. Introd., Gaius Iulius se Casere ærest Romana Breten-lond δesohte.
c890 K. ÆLFRED Bæda I. i, Breoton is ealond.
1297 R. GLOUC. 22 And aftur Brut ys owne nome he clepede hit Breteyne. 82 Bretayne.
a1375 Joseph Arim. (Vernon MS.) 232 {Th}e Auenturus of Brutayne.
c1428 Arthur 265 Maximian kyng of Bretaingne Conquered al France and Almayne.
c1500 Lyfe Jos. Armathy (W. de W.) lf. 4 Ioseph of Aramathia..came in to grete Brytayne.
c1505 DUNBAR `Schir for {Ygh}our Grace' 11 Fairest and best In Bartane.
c1515 Prophecy of Bertlington, The French wife shal beare the Sonne Shal weild al Bretane to the sea.
1542 HEN. VIII Declar. Scots Bivb, Brutus of whom the realme than callyd Brytayn toke fyrst that name.
1547 J. HARRISON Exhort. Scottes Hvj, Ye names of both subiectes & realmes ceassing, & to be changed into ye name of Britain & Britons, as it was at first, & yet stil ought to be.
1548 N. BODRUGAN Epitome Avb, England the only supreme seat of thempire of greate Briteigne.
1604 Procl. Jas. I, 24 Oct., King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland.
1630 WADSWORTH Sp. Pilgr. vii. 69 His Majesty of great Britaine. 1665 MANLEY Grotius' Low-C. Warrs 779 King James..obliterating the names of Scots and English, would have both to be united and grow up into one Kingdome..to be called Britain.
1667 DRYDEN Ann. Mirab. Ded., To the Metropolis of Great Britain, the most renowned and late flourishing city of London.
1707 Act of Union xi. §1 That the two Kingdoms of England and Scotland shall..be united into one Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain.
1710 Act 9 Anne vi. §4 To export and transport from Great Britain into Ireland.
1718 Act 5 Geo. I, xi. §16 The importation of Tar and Pitch from North-Britain into any part of South-Britain.
1729 Act 2 Geo. II, xxxv. §12 In several Parts of North Britain commonly called Scotland. Ibid. Brought..to that part of Great Britain called England.
1740 THOMSON `Rule Britannia', When Britain first, at Heaven's command, Arose from out the azure main.
c1800 DIBDIN `I sailed from the Downs', So adieu to the white cliffs of Britain.
1832 Act 2 & 3 Will. IV, lxxv. §1 In that part of the United Kingdom called Great Britain, and..that part of the United Kingdom called Ireland.
1868 C. W. DILKE (title) Greater Britain: Travels 1866-67.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:59:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, someone!

Having taken a look at Chaucer (late C14) I may add that he (or his characters in the Canterbury Tales, who use different idioms according to rank, regional origin, and personal foibles) uses the following:

Britaigne, Britayne, Briteyne, to mean either Britain or Brittany (which he also calls Armorik(e): "In Armorik, that called is Britayne" Franklin's Tale, l.1);

Bret, Briton, to mean Welshman;

Britoun, Briton, to mean Breton.

No use of (for example) "Grete Britayne" to mean "Great Britain".

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I can't say that I am too familiar with all the historical events that made things the way they are in the UK, but I am familiar with the way things went in France, where Breton/Corsican/Alsatian/Basque "nationalism" is now marginal at best, after decades of being crushed by the all-crushing French Nation. Regionalism is still strong in these places, but then even Toulousains and Marseillais are proud of their identity and of their "region" ...

ps: I've observed this issue of "cultural sub-nationalism" a lot since I went to Sri Lanka, and since then I try not to take it seriously. I landed in SL convinced that there were the Sinhalese, and there were the Tamils ... but the very first good friend I made there had a Tamil father and a Sinhalese mother ... confusion enough to make me feel like burning my books about the history of both cultures.

I am however aware of sensitivity on this type of issue so I do say British instead of English. However in France people commonly say "les Anglais" (the English) to refer to Great Britain as a whole.

And actually I know what's behind this sensitivity too: in all the years I've spent abroad, people I'd meet would often say "ah you're French, so you're from Paris huh?". This would sometimes make me pout.

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:34:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, IMHO
  1. The Prince of Wales (or his heir) would do good to become the first Prince of Wales in history to learn the Welsh language.
  2. "England and Wales" should be broken up as an administrative unit, into England and Wales.
  3. There should be separate English and British parliaments.


When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:38:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
4. The United Kingdom should field only one team in sports tournaments (and the six nations tournament would then become the four nations tournament)

[/i'm actually snarking, I like the fact that there is a Scott & Welsh team in rugby ... but we should also be allowed to have Southwest & Rest-of-France French teams, being different rugby cultures entirely]

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:43:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It probably didn't even register in your radar, but there was an attempt to get a Catalan field hockey team recognized internationally. They were even allowed to play in the international 'B' division for a season and routed every one of their opponents. Then Aznar's government heavily lobbied at the international body governing hockey and got their bid rejected.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:46:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's interesting that in middle class sports like rugby and cricket, aggregation is acceptable. But in working class sports such as football it isn't.

Ireland have one rugby team, but two football teams.

The Englaish cricket team is actually officially the MCC (Marylebone cricket club) to get around the fact that Welsh and Scots (and nowadays just about anybody else) can play for them.

West Indies is one cricket team and god knows how many football teams.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:54:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right in a sense, but the reason is that rugby and cricket are not played or supported by vast numbers of people. There are not many Rugby Union players in Ireland (Colman will tell us there aren't any), and a deliberate effort was made to bring the North and the Republic together to increase the chances of fielding a competitive international side. Something similar applies to cricket -- the Scots and Welsh don't play it much and iirc the only first-class county side outside England is Glamorgan...

It's easier to build and support football sides. Look at how many pro clubs London has.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:24:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Initially there were two unions both founded in 1874. The Irish Football Union had jurisdiction over Clubs in Leinster, Munster and parts of Ulster; the Northern Football Union of Ireland controlled the Belfast area. The IRFU was formed in 1879 as an amalgamation of the two different organisations and branches were formed in Leinster, Munster and Ulster. The Connacht Branch was formed in 1886.(Wikipedia)

The IRFU predates partition... it was the soccer crowd that split:

Upon the partition of Ireland in 1921 the FAIFS (now the FAI) was set up to regulate the game in the Irish Free State (now the Republic of Ireland). Those behind the FAIFS believed that soccer should be regulated by a federation based in the Free State capital Dublin. The IFA's supporters argued that the federation should be based where the game was mainly played - Ulster and its principal city Belfast. Both federations claimed to represent the whole of the island and both competed as Ireland and both picked players from the two rival leagues - which also split at this time.
(Wikipedia)

Which endorses Helen's view I guess: the upper and middle class sport stayed as one because it would have been dominated by rich Protestant or Anglo-Irish and the working class sport split over politics.

While I didn't go to a "rugby school", my father played  at some level in London in the sixties...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:38:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, I always wanted to ask someone (not you specifically but anyone in the know): how do the political divisions map onto the North Irish football team?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:51:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No idea. I'm guessing that Northern Protestants/Unionists don't have much time for the Republic team, but I'm not sure of the attitude of the Nationalists.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:08:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the historical detail -- I didn't know it went back that far -- but this still seems to me to beg the question. Why should a working-class sport be subject to disunion? Is there something proper to the working-class essence that makes it so, or is it intervention from above (ie upper classes), or is it (as I suggest) that football has the numbers (players, supporters) to make division possible and therefore envisageable?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:52:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would you said below seems quite valid (just look at the West Indies ... each island has so few cricket players - precisely because it's a middle class sport - that they have to gang up).

But then again maybe working class sports are so much a way for the working class to be heard that they don't want to share the glory of being heard with distant others?

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 09:58:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have expected the upper and middle classes to be much closer personally than the working classes: they would have gone to the same - or at least overlapping - schools, the parties, the universities. They would have done business with each other. Working class Protestant Belfast and Catholic Dublin would hardly ever have met. That wouldn't be true of the richer classes.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:05:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's see, gruff English pack, slick Welsh backs and some Scottish bruisers sprinkled in.

Be careful what you wish for Alex, you might not like the outcomes.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:04:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Prince of Wales does speak Welsh. He was taught to be fluent as a pre-condition by his mother for accepting the title. He was probably the first ever to be required to do so.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:49:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He does? First news I have of that. Makes me like the guy some more.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:55:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also makes me like the Queen a little more for the requirement.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:01:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There should be separate English and British parliaments.

There were plans to devolve power to a collection of Regional Assemblies around the country, which would be more or less equivalent to a local parliament, and would deal with local issues in much the same way that the Welsh and Scottish assemblies do already.

There was a stirring lack of interest from most of the regions about this. So although there's a Campaign for an English Parliamen, as Wikipedia says 'politically it remains a minor issue.'

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:20:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but most people do confuse Britain and England and most of the time few of us care.

Of course, when the English do it the Scots and Welsh care a lot. Which is  understandable, but it's unreasonable to expect non-natives to understand domestic squabbles.

I was entirely unaware until this week there was even an issue about The Netherlands/Holland and I bet that fewer than 0.1% of people here know even that much. It's not a case of not caring, it's a simple case of not knowing.

As for Dutch being a term of abuse, that may well be, but it's lost in mists of time. I certainly wasn't aware of that connotation and I doubt that few are.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:08:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Those "few of us" who care would be the Scots, Welsh and Irish, as 5/6 of the population of the UK lives in England. I would think that the Scots and Welsh that care a lot when an Englishman says "England" for "Britain" probably do care a lot when a foregner calls them english to their face, but are pobably too polite to gat angry and just chalk it up to igorance.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:14:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd like to think that the Scots and Welsh are more generous than that. (NB The Irish never get called english, they aren't even British).

Yes, they'll call the english on it, practically every time and with good reason. But, as I said, it is largely a domestic squabble and shouldn't concern non-natives.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 06:21:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Two hours later and this topic is all over the place...

You know, my off-hand comments gear up interesting discussion faster than my scrupulously scalped diaries.

Lesson to self: Nothing is mere. Nothing is mere. Repeat ten times, have kiwi.

The core of evil is a lack of empathy

by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:00:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I normally wouldn't be participating so much at this time of day, but I had the stupid idea of trying to cook chick peas to make hummus, this morning. I started at 9am, thinking "it's going to take a while" but not actually realizing that it would. I'm just eating now, and it's definitely not hummus (more like half-cooked chick peas that go crunch crunch under the teeth)

(I mean to say by this that I normally work on a full stomach - I know that digestion hinders cognition but I like feeling reassured stomach-wise, call it an animal instinct ... so for me confident half-cognition is more important that insecure full-cognition.)

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:05:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're supposed to soak chick peas for at least a day before you cook 'em.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:08:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The funny part is that I actually know this. I've repeatedly failed at cooking chick peas.

It's because I am a rebel when it comes to cooking. When someone tells me "you have to respect the cooking time" or "you have to put salt in the water" or whatever, I always feel like doing the opposite. When I have a curry dinner with friends in Paris, and two of us are doing the cooking, the other person follows a strict recipe and comes out with a perfect dish, while I just mix all sorts of spices in random fashion and always end up with a stew.

But my chick peas this morning, and my stews in general, taste good. It's just that they never end up being the dish that I announce beforehand.

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:14:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the worst mix I ever did (but which still tasted good) was lentils with potatoes and celery all mixed in one big stew. Then again I have eaten raw pasta with nutella when I was a (smoked-out) student ...
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:18:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
afew if you're reading this thread, let me tell you that the taboulé I suggested to bring at the ET meet-up on saturday will probably be purchased. I tried making taboulé once and it ended up being a couscous-seed stew with large chunks of tomatoes and what not.
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:20:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am reading, and can happily make taboulé if you like.

Am about to put up a diary re the meet.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you soak the chick-peas over night?
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:13:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Alas, no. I thought I could beat the cooking books this time too (see my comment above), and failed again.

But it tasted alright, it just wasn't hummous. Anyhow I knew this would fail, as I don't have a robot mixer (but I started looking at online prices for one as soon as I started eating my peas)

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:16:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A decent hand-held one is probably better than the free-standing ones unless you already know you want to use it a lot.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:20:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah I was wondering about that, I noticed there were handheld types. Do these actually work alright? Do they produce fine stews?
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:21:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They work quite well and they're much less hassle to clean up - make sure you get one that allows you remove the blade section for washing. You can use the hand-held in pots, cutting down the washing up even more!

I have a big KitchenAid free-standing liquidiser that I seldom use for things like hummus - if you're working with small quantities the handheld is better - you don't waste so much on the sides and nooks and crannies of the mixer.

Now, for crushing ice or making smoothies - or to pick a random example, for making iced coffee -  the free-standing one is the only way to go.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 07:28:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian: Secular Turks and Islamists fight for supremacy in the courts and streets

As Ankara begins entry negotiations, attempts are being made to sabotage its chances

When it comes to negotiating the treacherous faultlines of Turkey's fast road to modernity, chewing gum and garlic can make a dangerous cocktail. As Veysel Dalci, a leader of the governing party of pragmatic Islamists in Ordu on the Black Sea, stepped up to place a wreath at a monument to Ataturk - Father of the Turks - on Sovereignty Day, he was seen chewing gum.

The Turkish prosecution service went into action and Mr Dalci was charged with the crime of insulting Mustafa Kemal, better known as Ataturk, a national hero. Mr Dalci, who was held for 48 hours before being bailed, is awaiting trial and could face three years in prison.

A victim of the power struggle between defenders of the secularist state and the ruling AKP party of religious conservatives, Mr Dalci initially blamed his Sovereignty Day ordeal on an excess of grilled garlic the night before. He needed the gum to clear his breath. But then he denied chewing gum at all.

An AKP deputy leader, Dengir Mir Mehmet Firat, said: "How can you arrest someone for this? Let's assume he was chewing. It's not a crime, though it might be bad behaviour."

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 12:56:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
where you can be arrested, and rightly so, for having "bad taste."

I told Bush; don't play chess with the freakin' Russians.
by LEP (rafifoon@yahoo.com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 03:33:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But I thought chewing garlic was compulsory in France.

[/snark]

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:31:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That and chewing dried frog leg sticks. [/supersnark]
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:34:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And little bags of snail crackling.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:35:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Financial Times: Prodi pressed on labour costs plan

Italian industrialists criticised the centre-left government of Romano Prodi, prime minister, at the weekend for proposing that a radical plan to cut labour costs should not cover all businesses.

"The cut should be for everybody," Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, leader of Confindustria, Italy's employers' association, told the Financial Times.

"Selection is something that is done by the market. We should not be afraid of the market. If some companies don't use the cut in labour costs in the proper way, they will close," he said.

Mr Prodi's proposal to cut labour costs by 5 percentage points, or €10bn ($13bn, £7bn), in his first year in office was the centrepiece of the economic programme that he put to voters before his general election victory.

Mr Prodi said the plan would improve the competitiveness of Italian companies, many of which are struggling on world markets because of high taxes, low productivity growth and insufficient spending on research and development.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 01:05:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...why industrialists spit feathers, while "the business world" welcomed the idea? I can think of reasons why the business world would not sputter... What differs the industrialist from the business world?

The core of evil is a lack of empathy
by Nomad on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 04:24:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My best guess: "industry" is labour-intensive (manufacturing) and "the Business world" just shuffles paper back and forth?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:04:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Business has nothing to do with industry, really.  Industry is about building things and employing people and whatnot, while business is about financial parasitism through means of fictitious capital and political leverage.
by Zwackus on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 05:21:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Selection is something that is done by the market.

There you have it, the fundamental misunderstanding of the principle of natural selection permeated by marketista economists and businessmen. "The market" is not some mythical agent with an existence of its own, it is a theatre of business defined by the circumstances. Which do selection. Government policy to favor small business or renewable energies is just as much a defining circumstance as the rule of major companies in a 'deregulated' setup.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 08:22:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does anyone know exactly what's being proposed here?

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Jun 12th, 2006 at 10:11:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Financial Times: Hungary's PM plans 'first aid' for economy prior to surgery

Ferenc Gyurcsany, Hungary's prime minister, has vowed to slash the country's budget deficit by raising taxes and fighting waste in the public sector.

Corporate tax will be raised from 16 per cent to 20 per cent. Income tax, value added tax and social security contributions for employers and employees will also rise.

The austerity package is a 2½-year plan to tackle a budget deficit forecast to reach 9.5 per cent of gross domestic product this year, overshooting the 4.7 per cent target.

Mr Gyurcsany, who launched the plan on Saturday, told the Financial Times that tax increases were a short-term measure that would be followed by more important efforts to rein in public spending that had spun out of control, partly as a result of election spending promises.

"The steps for this year are what I would call first aid," he said. "We are not just cutting expenses but w