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World Cup: Quarter Finals - Picks? Tips? last chance...

by whataboutbob Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 06:57:23 AM EST

The 8th Final games are completed, and we now know the line-up for this weekend's Quarter Final games:

Tonight - June 30th:
Germany vs Argentina - 17:00 CEST in Berlin
Italy vs Ukraine - 21:00 CEST in Hamburg

Saturday Night - July 1st:
England vs Portugal - 17:00 CEST in Gelsenkirchen
France vs Brazil - 21:00 CEST in Frankfurt

So how did you do with your 8th final picks? And what are your picks for the Quarter Final winners?

Any comments or insights about these upcoming games are welcomed!


Display:
And by the way: congratulations to Brazil and FRANCE on their victories last night! I have been hearing from many football fan friends that Spain is quite a good team...so this victory by France is quite a surprise (yes?).

Anyway, I didn't do very well with my 8th final picks:

I correctly chose Germany, Argentina, Italy and Brazil...but was wrong in not picking England, Portugal, France or Ukraine. 50%...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 03:44:34 AM EST
My picks for the Quarter Finals:

Argentina, Brazil, England and Italy

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 03:45:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I must admit, Jerome's picks down thread are admirable, being all European and all...so I applaud that. And he did pick almost all the winners in the 8th finals too...
My Quarter Final picks are not without some hesitancy...for I think Portugal could beat England, except they will play all game with 10 players, so that gives a big edge to England (I think). And I haven't seen Germany play yet, but have seen two Argentina games, and so far I think Argentina is in a good position to win (including the fact that they got a good scare put into them by Mexico). Italy will beat Ukraine...though I suspect it will be a boring defensive batle. France and Brazil? Perhaps France will surprize again...though I have yet to watch a Brazil game, and they haven't really semed to be challenged much (plus they have just seemed to be warming up for these coming rounds)...so Brazil.

For the Semi-finals and Finals: I have to say that I have a slight bias for an African or South American country winning...I just like the idea of our Black or Brown citizens of the world winning once in awhile. So I guess that leans me in the Brazilian or Argentinian direction...

So the semi-finals:
 Brazil beats France
Argentina beats Germany

For 3rd and 4th place:
Germany beats France

Finals

Argentina vs Brazil...and I need to think about who I think will win what would be a great game... stay tuned...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 08:11:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Portugal could beat England, except they will play all game with 10 players

You think they'll get a red card at the beginning?

I haven't seen Germany play yet

Surprisingly good. Could be the best (or at least most enjoyable to watch) German side in history. Still, Argentine seems at level with them.

I just like the idea of our Black or Brown citizens of the world winning once in awhile.

Plenty of black and brown citizens of the world in the French team -- and mostly white ones in the Argentina team :-)



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 09:15:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Red cards: I thought that because the Portuguese team had people red carded it rolled over to the next game. No?

SA teams: point taken!

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 09:29:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But that doesn't mean Portugal can't field 11 players. It does mean they can't field all the players that they would like.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 09:31:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As Migeru said; but an important but red-carded (or injured) player on the benches can hurt a team very much. Portugal now misses two of its three good offensive midfielders (injured Christiano Ronaldo, and his red-carded Brasilian-born rival Deco) and the other red-carded, central midfielder Costinha.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 09:41:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, I'm learnin the fine points of the game. Red cards only mean the specific player is out...but not that the team is down the number of players.  Hmm...now I may have to re-consider my vote on this game (though I will hold off for the moment...)

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 10:44:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bob you are SUCH an expat Yank ;-)

Remind me if I ever come to Switzerland to challenge you to snooker, croquet, Finnish baseball and beach cricket (Locarno has beaches doesn't it?) ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 01:32:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bob you are SUCH an expat Yank ;-)

Good thing we have Sven around, I was at a loss for words...

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 01:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jen thought red cards meant that the entire team was disqualified.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 02:13:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to a prominent African rainman, the point of cricket is as follows:

15 men dressed in white go out into a large open area. Two of them hold war clubs, another two are clearly shamans in their longer coats ands ceremonial hats. The shamans place 6 sticks in the ground and then the rest of them form celestial positions around the sticks.

Then it starts to rain.

Powerful medicine!

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 01:38:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah. The point of cricket is to provide background movement when drinking on a summer's evening. It's quite relaxing to watch, especially when you have no idea what the rules are.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 01:40:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good lord man, have you never heard of sight screens?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 02:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Btw the whole Aragones/Henry row has just been revived:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/5127374.stm
by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 07:37:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Got only 6 right out of 8, with only 2 correct scores.

Quarter-finals:

Germany 2 - 2 Argentina (Germany through on penalties after wild match)
Italy 1 - 0 Ukraine (Italy score at 119th minute on generous penalty)
England 1 - 2 Portugal (England are no match, violence breaks out throughout Germany)
Brazil 0 - 3 France (Brazil just can't put it together against their nemesis, France ... Zidane scores two headers, Dida confirms his status as worst goalkeeper in the world)

Semis:

Germany 2 - 0 Italy (Italy play at 10 during 60 minutes, their defensive game eventually crumbles)
Portugal 2 - 2 France (France through on penalties, lots of yellow cards, Makelele/Vieira/Barthez suspended for final)

Final:

Germany 2 - 3 France (in what is to become a historic moment, Henry slams into Lehman and breaks several of his teeth, no foul whistled ... France's economy surges  by 4% over the next four trimesters, the banlieues erupt in positive/anti-discrimination peace marches, riot cops are photographed hugging young franco-arabs ... the Smurf's jingle song becomes France's new national anthem).

by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 04:18:00 AM EST
Portugal-France Again?? NOOooooooo!!!
AS Portugal has been the black beast of England in latest tournaments, France does it for Portugal, especially on semi-finals... 1984... 2000...
Oh well, congratulations on the victory over Spain, always good to see Zidane doing poetry with the ball.
by Torres on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 05:50:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that it would be nice if we got to beat the English but if your lot want to first I guess that's fine by me.

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs
by redstar on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 10:32:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
wait wait you can't change the anthem!

Klaus Fischer isn't on the German's roster as a substitute is he?

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs

by redstar on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 10:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was late to bet for the first three eightfinals, but would have tipped the actual winners.

I was wrong about the Netherlands and Australia, but given the refereee errors in those matches, those weren't big errors...

I correctly tipped the winners in the last three matches, but for all the wrong reasons: Brazil-Ghana didn't prove as spectacular as expected, Voronin still didn't score for Ukraine, nor did Trezeguet for France and that game wasn't decided in extra-time...

Quarterfinals bet v. 3.0:
Argentina (I maintain my opinion: Germany overconfident, Argentina team has effective self-criticism after Mexico match)
England (decimated Portugal has trouble)
Italy (Ukraine is another victim of Azzurri arrogance)
France-Brazil: now I refuse to guess this one!

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 04:20:37 AM EST
Forgot --

Semis bet 3.0:
Argentina beats Italy 2:1 in extra time, red card record broken again
France beats England at a straight 3:0

Semis bet 3.1:
Argentina beats Italy 2:1 in extra time, red card record broken again
Brazil beats England at 3:1

3rd place bet 3.0:
Italy beats England after 0:0 on penalties, Lampard the new Baggio

Final bet 3.0:
France beats Argentine 1:0 in extra time despite being one man down (brutal foul against Riquelme who is carried off), mass tussle after the goal on the pitch, Maradone suffers a multiple heart attack and dies, minutes later French embassy in Buenos Aires torched

Final bet 3.1: Argentine beats Brazil 5:3 in extra time in a furious game that will be remembered in a hundred years' time, even though only 20% of Argentine fans swap Maradona dresses for Riquelme dresses

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 04:32:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Argentina
Italy :-(
Portugal
?

(cough) If any team in this competition can beat Brazil, France can. But will they?

(I'm sticking to this formula, it worked last night...)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 04:37:39 AM EST
France's goal scoring is following an arithmetic growth pattern:

0 goals against the Swiss
1 against South Korea
2 against Togo
3 against Spain

Will it be 4 against Brazil?

by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 05:31:12 AM EST
I must confess that I'm not terribly interested in football - and it is nothing to do with Finland's non-involvement in the competition.

I've tried to analyse it, but haven't come up with any explanation. I like watching Finnish ice-hockey both live and on TV, but also I could watch cricket all day. So right there are two extremes of speed and strategies.

If I was forced to come up with an explanation, it is that I probably dislike any grossly overpaid jesses prancing about in a gladiatorial arena. <runs and ducks>

Now table-tennis, curling, lawn bowls, boules, croquet, that kind of thing - they are fascinating mixes of skill, luck and good sportsmanship.

But for atmosphere, give me greyhound racing any night of the week.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 05:38:57 AM EST
If you like hockey, and from what i know of the sport, the Gladiatorial Arena can't be the issue...
by Torres on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 05:52:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You haven't watched Finnish Ice-Hockey then ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 08:33:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I could watch cricket all day.

Yer useta go down Grace Road ter watch County, me duck?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 06:06:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Me Dad was the Secretary of the Club - e'd ave me up on roof changing the flippin' score!

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 08:30:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah me duck I ent gunna go down grace road, Im gunna go dahn the coun'y ground.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 04:22:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now tell us exactly which county that would be, ceebs...?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 07:59:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well if I'm using me duck it can only be two either Leicestershire or Northamptonshire

And it isn't Leicestershire.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 08:31:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, around here if you use me duck you could be in Helsinki or Southern France, too.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 08:41:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Northampton was my N°1 suspect from the duck point of view. Also you don't say coun'y ground in Leicester. (you go down County, the "y" being pronounced sort of "eh").

I lived most of my childhood in South Leics (Fleckney) and went to school in Kibworth Beauchamp (on the A6 north of Market Harborough.)

I think we now need to organize an ET meet-up the object of which will be to watch cricket and drink tepid, flat beer on a sunny afternoon. Which is a lot nicer than it sounds to those who've never done it.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 09:53:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nowadays I rarely get over to that side of the country, living in the deapths of deepest darkest Wales.

Last time I was in Leicester (apart from standing on The train station on the endless journey to Aberystwyth) was probably in about 1989 on a night out to see the Pixies.

My youth was spent in Kettering, Corby and Peterborough.

Any day out which involves flat beer and cricket is much nicer than it sounds. (One spectacularly good one was spent at wellingborough school watching Northamptonshire against Someset, with Ian Botham playing).

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 02:45:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since Sunday, didn't watch any football. For real. I can't even remember my predictions.

I tried following politics the other day. It was no success.

by Nomad on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 06:25:41 AM EST
So, you were spared of some "Wir fahren ohne Holland nach Berlin, ohne Holland nach Berlin, ohne Holland nach Berlin..." chants the other day... (and I thought German fans don't care much about the Netherlands rivalry...)

BTW, it was reported that French fans sang "Wihr fahren nach Berlin", in German, at the training sessions of the French team before yesterday's game.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 06:35:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have a long review of experimental gravitational physics to read, if you have nothing else to turn to ;-)

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 06:39:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany - Argentina
Italy - Ukraine
England - Portugal
Brazil - France

Semifinals:
Germany - Italy
Portugal - Brazil

3rd place:
Portugal - Italy (dirtiest match of the tournament)

Final:
Germany - Brazil

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 06:42:49 AM EST
Thsi is exactly what I would say.

I would love Ukraien to get through .. but it would not happen.

I know may be england would beat portugal...but I think it is not going to happen

And I would love to see Portugal to beat Brasil.. but I know it is not going to happen..

Geee......

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 01:21:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany - Argentina
Italy - Ukraine
England - Portugal
Brazil - France

Europe is baaack!

Semifinals:
Germany - Italy
England - France

Old Europe is baaack!

3rd place:
England - Italy

Final:
Germany - France

France is baaack!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 07:24:39 AM EST
LOL

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 07:30:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That'd be a good outcome for the Eurozone economy. Good plan.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 07:37:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm with you in spirit on that final but my head says Germany is the hardest in the lot plus they're at home. OTOH, the more important one is the semi-final, that will pretty much make my cup right there, the final being simply the icing on the cake.

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs
by redstar on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 10:28:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the semis, doesn't the Germany-Argentina winner actually play the England-Portugal winner?

So your semis matchups should be Germany v England and Italy v France?

by TGeraghty on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 06:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I blindly followed Migeru above...
Same final, though.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 06:58:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are misreading the table. Here is a more up-to-date version that makes it clearer.

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 07:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right you are, Migeru. I've been victimized by a faulty pool spreadsheet.
by TGeraghty on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 08:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I stand by my earlier picks (6 for 8 and especially proud of calling the score of France-Espinguoinie), with the modification that instead of beating Holland, England shall beat Portugal and instead of beating Ghana, France shall beat Brazil.

http://www.eurotrib.com/comments/2006/6/24/45457/0612/14#14

I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from them Eugene Debs

by redstar on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 10:24:38 AM EST
We should call the country Netherlands, before our Dutch readers get angry.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 10:37:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wup, Holland, Wup!

guaranteed to evoke a violent reaction from police is to challenge their right to "define the situation." --- David Graeber citing Marc Cooper
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 10:42:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We are really mean to Nomad...

(I recalled that nice German fan chant...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 11:43:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I prefer 'Alankomaat' - the Finnish version of Netherlands.

Let's try to be kind to Nomad - he's having a bad day, what with pig-ignorant local politicians and all....

Take comfort in the rocks, my boy - they will never let you down.

BTW I should introduce you to the Finnish concept of 'Sisu', which means the ability to walk through rocks AKA perseverence.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 02:15:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I prefer 'Alankomaat' - the Finnish version of Netherlands.

And Németalföld in Hungarian.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 29th, 2006 at 09:39:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow, my picks for the 8th Final really blew.  Four for eight.  But, hey, I wasn't a soccer fan prior to this WC.

Alright, I'll take:
(1) Germany: Very difficult, so I'll go with the home team.
(2) Ukraine: The Law of American Football states that Cinderella stories end at the Finals.  We'll see if it applies to soccer.
(3) England: Portugal lost too much against Holland.  England plays another ugly game and squeaks by.
(4) Brazil: France played well against Spain, but Brazil is simply too strong, as I see it.  My head is still spinning from Ronaldo's goal.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 02:08:37 PM EST
Germany, Ukraine, England & France.  

Ukraine & France.

Ukraine.

Just because I'm a contrarian and romantic.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 02:41:00 PM EST
My predictions have been so bad that I'm hesitant to make any but the most tentative suggestions.

I'm not gonna call Germany/Argentina, it's easily the most difficult draw. It really depends on which germany come out.

Italy, portugal (germany will burn that night) & probably Brazil.

But..then again, France could shock us all again.
Sven & McClaren might have fatal heart attacks which lead to the boot cleaner picking a succesful team (god knows he couldn't be worse at it than them).
And Ukraine...well dafter things have happened.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 04:26:12 PM EST
My Choices

Germany, Italy, England and Brazil (but the first and last ones are the most 50/50.

then Brazil beat england, Germany beat Italy. IfBrazil lose to France, then England Beat France. I think that Englands game is more suited to playing France than Brazil. whichever happens, I think Germany win

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 04:35:19 PM EST
Well I thought it would be close, but not that close.

The German penaties were just amazingly clinical.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 01:45:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
should be some great matches.  I'd say it will be Germany, Italy, England and Brazil.
by wchurchill on Wed Jun 28th, 2006 at 06:00:37 PM EST
Tonight - June 30th:
Germany vs Argentina -  GERMANY
Italy vs Ukraine - ITALY

Saturday Night - July 1st:
England vs Portugal - ENGLAND
France vs Brazil - BRAZIL

by vbo on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 09:05:41 AM EST
Last time 5 right 3 wrong...
by vbo on Fri Jun 30th, 2006 at 09:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Alex got it right! Now it's no longer a world cup but a eurozone cup:

Germany-Italy
France-Portugal

by Laurent GUERBY on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 04:56:11 PM EST
It's a cyclical thing.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 05:02:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So a likely Germany-France final?

I'd venture now to say France's chances hang on yellow cards. If key players get one against Portugal (Sagnol, Vieira, Zidane, Thuram, Ribéry, all have one each), they'll miss the final.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jul 1st, 2006 at 05:15:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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