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Open Thread - Tuesday Evening

by whataboutbob
Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 10:39:01 AM EST

Any news to report or discussions you wish to have not already started in other threads? Here's an open thread for you...

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Open Thread - Tuesday Evening | 77 comments (77 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 0)

And an aside...its still damn hot...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 10:43:41 AM EST

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 0)

is that warmer or cooler than friggin hot?

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:20:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Enjoying the weather... (none / 0)

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:14:17 AM EST

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 1)

You're by the sea in Brittany, then? <grrmbl...>

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:23:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 1)

Actually in the beautiful and boiling city of Lyon...

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:24:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 0)

Ah. Hotter than the Toulouse region, I think. It's 37° in the shade here, this afternoon.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:29:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 0)

More or less the same here...

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:46:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 0)

Here the heat wave reached the thunderstorms stage yesterday. Today my workplace was just in the middle of two big thunderstorms, so it was hot for me... but not as hot for you (c. 33°C outdoors 31°C indoors, but very high moisture).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:51:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 0)

Would you rather it be snowing and have little children being chased by ravonous glaciers?

Didn't think so. Off to the beach with you!!!!

by messy on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 02:27:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 0)

Would you rather it be snowing and have little children being chased by ravonous glaciers?

Yes, glacier-skiing is cool :-)

Off to the beach with you!!!!

None nearby. (Well, theree is the Danube, but it is polluted.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 02:44:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 0)

A touch under 40c on my balcony when I got home just now...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 01:13:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 0)

It reached 30° here where I'm sitting and I switched everything off and looked for a cooler spot. Then a storm broke, a big one, a lot of rainfall and hail. Half the vegetables in the garden are smashed up, and what's left is going to need TLC to nurse it through.

But the air now is so-o-o-o cool. It's an ill wind...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 03:14:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 0)

It reached 30° here where I'm sitting and I switched everything off and looked for a cooler spot.

And that's supposed to be hot? 30 is the historical average high temp for this time of year in NYC. Unless it's very humid it's fine.

by MarekNYC on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 03:17:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 0)

I think he meant indoor temperature, with 37°C outside.

Regarding how strong a factor humidity is, as I mentioned to someone else, my American relatives (one lived in Atlanta, another lives in California) think the current heat wave in Hungary is worse than what they are used to -- though temperatures are far from even local records, not to mention what they can have there.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 03:34:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 0)

I mean here indoors at my desk. Outside it was 37° or more.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 03:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 0)

Indoors. Lucky you. From mid - late afternoon to late evening my apartment is warmer inside than out, depending on whether it's sunny or not - top floor, thick walls, skylight. Right now it's in the mid twenties outside, low thirties inside.

by MarekNYC on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 03:59:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Enjoying the weather... (none / 1)

Is there no way of getting the difference in -- bringing some of the mid-twenties inside to bring down the low thirties?

At 30° I stop running the computer. Whether I stop running my brain depends on whether it was running in the first place or not, which is a matter of some dispute.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:36:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 1)

Interesting piece from Bill Scher on LiberalOasis about why the whole Lebanon shebang kicked off.

He took his cue from a conversation on CNN's Late Edition between host Wolf Blitzer and Lebanon's Prime Minister.

http://www.liberaloasis.com/2006/07/sunday_talkshow_breakdown_2.php

Basically saying that Hezbollah were about to see their fig-leaf justification for existing about to disappear, so they needed to fight off the threat of a negotiated settlement

Highly recommended

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 12:05:42 PM EST

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

that's funny because everyone is saying that Israel had this planned for a year, and are now putting Hariri's assassination under closer examination

some are also saying that the captured Israelis were on the Lebanese side of the border

I don't know if we'll ever know

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 12:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

I admit I've not read Juan Cole's essay on that, but I imagine that Israel's response may have been a planned response to an attack from Hezbollah they considered inevitable.

Dunno really, every group seems to have its own reasons for this. Perhaps we'll never know. But I admit I did wonder why Hezbollah started firing now, the Gaza thing didn't seem sufficient excuse to me.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 12:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

I think one thing we can all agree on is that there a lot of things going on behind the scenes we aren't aware of, some of which might change our entire perspective on the issue.

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 12:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

There are a lot of people who would personally lose from real peace. Including most Israeli government politicians, US politicians, Hezbollah leaders and an assorted rogue gallery of other scum.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 01:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

Planned? Well, EVERYONE'S military has contingency plans for just about everything. I'm pretty sure France has a plan in some filing cabinet about how to respond to a Luxembougrios invasion.

The Lebanese government's annexation of Shaba farms in 2000 was in order to let Hizbullah keep on firing rockets into Israel.

They have to let the bullies have someting to do or else they'd go after the rest of the Lebanese.

by messy on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 02:24:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (4.00 / 2)

How did you know about France's plan to counter an invasion by those damn Luxembourgeois?

What are you, a spy or something?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 03:18:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

I disagree. I read recently that the USA has plans to invade Canada,but they date from 1932. Israel was presenting their plans for a war with Lebanon just a short time ago to Americans. Coincidence? I think not.

I think Juan Cole has the scoop on the Israeli war plans wrt Lebanon.

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 03:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 1)

I live in hope that Canada has plans to invade the US.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:37:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

There are contingency plans from the eighteenth century.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 02:53:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 1)

that's funny because everyone is saying that Israel had this planned for a year,

If Israel doesn't have continually updated contingency plans for fighting with Hezbollah then their military planners should be fired. Actually judging from what I'm reading their planners should be fired because of how poor those plans were, but that's another story.

some are also saying that the captured Israelis were on the Lebanese side of the border

The stuff I read on that was sourced to the Reseau Voltaire, so until there's something a tad more reliable I'll leave it in the bin with the Fox News reports on the WMD's we've found in Iraq and the tabloid alien abduction stories.

by MarekNYC on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 03:44:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

First, you have to read Juan Cole.

Secondly, I myself have a diary about the press stories about which side of the border the soldiers were captured because I first read that they were captured in Lebanon, then the story changed and they were captured in Israel. Since I'm looking for a job, I spend practically all day online and that's why I noticed the discrepancy.

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2006/7/15/18250/2105

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 03:51:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

Confusion probably originates from some press reports adding up the initial Israeli losses of eight dead, which came from two separate events: (1) the attack by a Hezbollah commando emerging from a tunnel in Israel, which killed 2, and (2) a tank in the small unit immediately sent for hot pursuit was blown up by a mine on the Lebanon side, killin 6.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:06:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

Kidnapped in Israel or Captured in Lebanon?
Official justification for Israel's invasion on thin ice
by Joshua Frank

As Lebanon continues to be pounded by Israeli bombs and munitions, the justification for Israel's invasion is treading on very thin ice. It has become general knowledge that it was Hezbollah guerillas that first kidnapped two IDF soldiers inside Israel on July 12, prompting an immediate and violent response from the Israeli government, which insists it is acting in the interest of national defense. Israeli forces have gone on to kill over 370 innocent Lebanese civilians (compared to 34 killed on Israel's side) while displacing hundreds of thousands more. But numerous reports from international and independent media, as well as the Associated Press, raise questions about Israel's official version of the events that sparked the conflict two weeks ago.

Kidnapped in Israel or Captured in Lebanon?
Official justification for Israel's invasion on thin ice
by Joshua Frank

http://www.antiwar.com/frank/?articleid=9401

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:18:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

sorry, that cut & paste didnt' work so well

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

The links in the article were interesting. I'll try to look up more.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:37:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

OK, so there was indeed first a Lebanese police/Hezbollah version of capture during an incursion into Lebanon, and later an Israeli version with the 'regular border patrol' and tank mine. Even Wikipedia carries both. But one point that to me implies that here the Israeli version seems more true is that the two captured were reservists on the last day of their service -- one doesn't expect such to be included in a border-crossing commando.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

Haaretz article with the Israeli version in some detail (and I was wrong on numbers: 3 and 5).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:52:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

Hezbollah has just admitted that they didn't expect such a fierce response from the IDF.

Doesn't that suggest that Hezbollah was unprepared and the IDF wasn't?

there's something we're not being told and it may just as well be on the Israeli side as the Hezbollah side, or Iran or Syria or the USA.

There's just something "louche" about all of this.

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:57:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

Unfortunately we only have Hizbullah's word for that. It may just be part of the communications war -- designed to suggest exactly what you say and thus get Hizbullah off the charge of deliberate provocation.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 02:59:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's about the occupation of the Shebaa Farms (none / 0)

Thanks for this! Highly informative, though I think it goes a bit too far.

The political reality was that Israel joined Lebanon (and the UN) in piling pressure on Syria over a border agreement regarding the Shebaa Farms, which saw that as attempt to further reduce its influence and thus rejected talks (you can find this even in the story Bill Scher linked) -- e.g. there was no realistic chance of a peaceful settlement over the Shebaa Farms soon. So I don't see how this could have been that pressing a reason in Hezbollah's calculations, though sure it seems a significant part of it. I believe Gaza was a strong factor (in three ways: opportunity when the IDF is partly bogged down, need to show street credit, and apparent excuse for the conflict both sides seem to have planned for for long), and probably the global situation (US bogged down in Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korean missile crisis and Iranian nuke talks).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 02:42:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (4.00 / 2)

Can I take this opportunity to reiterate how much I hate telecoms companies?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 01:46:44 PM EST

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 0)

Always. And I'll agree, although my relationship with Telecoms is more love/hate than pure hate.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 01:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 0)

Right on Colman.
British Telecom have been the bane of my life in various ways for many a year.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 03:28:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 0)

Well at least swapping my old DSL modem for a new one means that iChat works properly now. Don't know if it will sort out the intensely frustrating problems with my DSL connection though.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 03:33:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Airport? (none / 0)

Because I may have a solution...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:50:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Airport? (none / 0)

Nah, it's the DSL that's the problem. The Airport is fine, and so's the iChat now that the stupid Netopia modem is out of the way.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Airport? (none / 0)

I take that back. I can make (one-way at least) video chats work but not straight audio. Weird. I'll have to look into that more.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Airport? (none / 0)

What were you going to say?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:09:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kremlin antics (4.00 / 4)

I don't know whether it was noticed here or not but yesterday two Russian political parties, claiming to be left parties - Rodina (Motherland) and Party of life (lead by Senate speaker Mironov) signed agreement about their merger. In their immediate plans - steal left voters from Communists thus ending last viable opposition to current regime and make parliament more than loyal to Kremlin. However all this affair seems unlikely, more important for Kremlin in task of keeping Communists at bay so far was continuation of incompetent and unelectable Mr Zyuganov at helm of KPRF.
Mr Mironov so far was unsuccessful in party building, that's why his dwarf Party of life tries to piggyback other players. Rodina was new variant of ultra nationalist liberal democrats with firebrand leader Mr Rogozin. Rogozin was tolerated for all his antics till last year when Putin's popularity plunged on wave of harsh social benefits reforms and protests by pensioners. Rogozin was trying to boost his popularity backing social demands and was punished - Kremlin organized coup in his own party, new leader Mr Babakov has forgettable face of bureaucrat.
The Kremlin dream of having two similar parties like American democrats and republicans has come closer.

by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 02:10:02 PM EST

Re: Kremlin antics (none / 0)

thanks for the update

how are the Russians feeling about the Middle East situation?

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 02:16:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kremlin antics (4.00 / 2)

It was not of much interest over here despite desperate efforts by news programs. Who would nwatch news anyway. There is no all-round news channel like CNN in Russia that's why people here are not interested. I remember CNN and BBC were successful in creating compassionate hysteria in the aftermath of Kashmir earthquake and Asian tsunami. Maybe this time is the same.
Most people used to think of Middle East as perpetual violence because big powers like US, EU and rich arab monarchies were not interested in long term solution of Arab Israeli conflict. Maybe it's time for Arabs, US and EU to occupy south Lebanon, West Bank and Gaza, wrest occupied territories from Israel, legalize Hizbollah and Hamas, stop all contacts between warring sides (because with labor workers shahids come) and try to create some work for Palestinians by new Marshall plan. I know Europeans and Americans because of their misadventures in Iraq feel uneasy about new expences, maybe oil sheikhs will donate some og their extra profits?
Some hawks in US were alarmed by possible Russian presence in Middle East, I think all in vain. Russia is more interested in conflicts in neighbouring countries and new rebellion in poor Georgia shall catch all Russia's attention.

by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 02:49:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kremlin antics (none / 1)

Maybe it's time for Arabs, US and EU to occupy south Lebanon, West Bank and Gaza, wrest occupied territories from Israel,

Now that would be World War Three!

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 03:49:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kremlin antics (none / 1)

I don't think it would lead to WWIII.
This plan is no better no worse than any other road maps. There are some unacceptable for now conditions in it, US, Israel and Joshka Fisher should stop stygmatising Hizballah and Hamas, Israel has to give up Golan heights, Eastern Jerusalem and all encroachments, radical elements within Palestinians should be eradicated. US may occupy parts of Israel, arabs - Palestinians and EU may separate them. Hizballah and Hamas anyway will come to power but this time they should adhere to rules instead they will get territories and financial help.

by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:07:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kremlin antics (4.00 / 2)

Is this the: If you liked Iraq, you'll really love the sequel?

Anybody trying to impose a peace settlement against the will of one or both of the two parties isn't going to get anywhere, or at least not anywhere they want to be.

by MarekNYC on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:17:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Kremlin antics (none / 1)

Plan has nothing to do with Iraq, though sorry I forget Americans are by neck in it, became almost immovable and disinterested in any meaningful cooperation on all other matters.
However Palestinian Israeli conflict is the right one which cannot be decided without American support in restraining Israelis. No Arab country will risk to help Palestinians without such brakes on Israel.
Today in Euronews there was information that international diplomats are gathering in Rome to discuss humanitarian intervention in South Lebanon and disarmament of Hizbollah. It's hopelessly remind me 1980's, with humiliating retreat of French and Americans from Lebanon after series of terrorist acts. I hope this time common sense should prevail in not repeating old mistakes. Without preliminary agreement of Israelis and Palestinians on final territorial settlement approved by UN, organisation of international aid to Palestine and Lebanon (it's better if donors from Gulf states give their money to special UN agency first, not only empty pledges), setting terms and dates of deoccupation of occupied territories, defining character and size of international peacekeepers, agreeing on control over disarmament of Palestinian militants, and so on and on all possible agreements will quickly disappear after new terrorist acts.

by FarEasterner (avdavydov@yandex.ru) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 08:28:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More on levelled apartment buildings (none / 0)

More illustration to the Israeli Chief of Staff's order to destroy ten apartment buildings for every Hezbollah rocket hitting Haifa (taken from Angry Arab, visited via Billmon):

Angry Arab also says:

An early estimate put the number of homes--HOMES--that have been destroyed in the Southern suburbs of Beirut at 50,000.

I think he means damaged homes; at any rate, this would be some 1000 affected apartment blocks. Another interesting snippet:

Not all the Southern Lebanese who are fighting the brutal Israeli occupation troops are members of Hizbullah. Today, the Lebanese Communist Party announced the death of two members who were fighting the occupation troops.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:19:40 PM EST

Re: More on levelled apartment buildings (none / 1)

Another interesting story concerns Walid Jumblatt, the Druze leader. The guy who was a notorious anti-semite before, suddenly became a hero of democracy in the Western mainstream press when he joined the anti-Syrian block, and suddenly started like a US neocon. But now Jumblatt made another shift, though a smaller one -- support for Hezbollah with criticism alongside the previous lines:

"Today, we are heading toward the unknown but we have no choice but to resist and to support our brothers in the South," Jumblatt said.
The head of the Democratic Gathering parliamentary bloc praised the struggle being made by Southern residents and Hizbullah against "the Israeli murder and destruction machine," but warned the fight would be a long one.
"Unfortunately, the Syrian regime has achieved its promise," he added.
"[Syrian President] Bashar Assad told [late former Prime Minister] Rafik Hariri in August 2004: 'If [French President Jacques] Chirac wants to oust me from Lebanon, I will destroy your country," Jumblatt said.
"What is happening today makes us more determined to build a democratic and independent country, establish diplomatic relations with Syria, demarcate the borders in the Shebaa Farms and discuss Hizbullah's arms," the PSP leader said.
"And when [Hizbullah leader] Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah tells us that his weapons are efficient and sharp, we will tell him that they would have been more efficient if they were within the government's defense strategy," he added.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:28:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: More on levelled apartment buildings (none / 1)

BTW, according to Israeli humanitarian organisation B'tselem and reported by BBC, Israel again used human shields last week in Gaza.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 04:33:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 1)

The last few times I've briefly visited Daily Kos I have noticed prominent ads asking for support for the someone opposing Cyntia McKinney for the Democratic nomination in her Congressional district. Can someone explain to me why the netroots are deserting McKinney? She was one of the few democrats to stand up to bush after 9/11, she got unseated by the Republicans in her district voting for her opponent in the (open) democratic primary in 2002 and then won her seat back in 2004. I thought progressive democrats would like her.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:02:10 PM EST

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 0)

Have you missed this ugly charade? Still, I didn't expect dKos to have become as mainstream as going against McKinney for this...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:11:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 0)

It goes without saying that I looked up McKinney's wikipedia page to se if there was anything there about her reelection campaign. Same reaction as you.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:20:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 1)

Is this (from Wikipedia) the nub?

On April 3, former Wonkette editor Ana Marie Cox, interviewed on Joe Scarborough's MSNBC show Scarborough Country, said that "I worry that she [McKinney] makes us [Democrats] all look a little crazy." [4] Within a few days of the first reports, McKinney had been variously described as a "crazy bitch", "race baiter", "freak", etc. Some columns even went so far as to analyze her hairstyle in a negative light and question the quick participation of Harry Belafonte, who is generally regarded as a political polarizing agent and also the recipient of frequent negative commentary due to his public statements.

Not that I consider any of this to be reasons for being against McKinney. But it looks as if she's been bazooka'd by the demonising squad.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 03:21:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (4.00 / 2)

Israeli missile strikes UN base in Lebanon
An Israeli aerial bomb destroyed a base run by a UN observer force in southern Lebanon tonight, causing casualties, a UN spokesman said. [ireland.com Breaking News]
An Israeli aerial bomb destroyed a base run by a UN observer force in southern Lebanon tonight, causing casualties, a UN spokesman said.
"One aerial bomb directly impacted the building and shelter in the base of the United Nations Observer Group in Lebanon in the area of Khiam," said Milos Strugar, spokesman for the UNIFIL peacekeeping force in the area.
"There are casualties among the observers. A UNIFIL dispatched rescue team which is on the spot is still unable to clear the rubble."
Mr Strugar declined to say if anyone was believed to have died, but it appears that the entire building collapsed while the UN observers were in the shelter below.
"There were 14 other incidents of firing close to this position in the afternoon from the Israeli side and the firing continued during the rescue operation," he said.
An Israeli tank shell hit a UNIFIL position in southern Lebanon yesterday, wounding four Ghanaian soldiers. Shrapnel from tank shells fired from the Israeli side seriously wounded an Indian soldier last week and Hizbollah fire wounded an Italian observer on the border on Sunday.

That should help motivate countries to contribute to a "force".

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:29:03 PM EST

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 1)

Now we know when Juan Cole talks about blue helmets with authorisation to shoot back, he's not talking only about shooting at Hezbollah.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 1)

I've forgotten how many troops Ireland lost in Unifil, but the losses were roughly 50/50 Hezbollah and Israel/Israeli back miltias.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:45:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 0)

And apparently the SLA radio station started broadcasting again today...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 0)

Turns out that Israel has been seriously at odds with UNIFIL at least since 2006. Clearly when Israel talks about an international force in Southern Lebanon they don't mean a UN force, that would be too neutral.

UNIFIL forces have fallen out of favour in Israel and claims that little regard has been given to their safety by the IDF[1][2] following accusations that it was complicit in a fatal abduction of IDF soldiers in October 2000. Suspicions persist although the UN has published a report denying complicity[3].
Prior to the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict of July 2006, Israel had been lobbying for UNIFIL to either take a more active role vis-a-vis Hezbollah (for example, preventing Hezbollah from setting up military posts adjacent to UNIFIL's in the hope this will deter Israel from attacking them), or to step out of the region (thereby voiding the Lebanese government's excuse for not deploying its army along the border).[4]
With the eruption of open warfare, UNIFIL's utility has been called into question over accusations that it has failed to fulfill the terms of its mandate. There is currently some debate over the need for a replacement UN Peacekeeping force. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has also asked the UN to enforce UN Resolution 1559, which calls for the disarmament of Hizbullah, as one of its prime considerations in accepting a cease-fire.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:53:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (4.00 / 2)

Not only.

haaretz reports they are injured...other surces says they are dead.

Boths sources indicate that a shell fell int he UN camp...I guess the IDF gets another medal for clusterf-ck sh-t of the day attacking a completely no realted target.....But this will hurt in the international arena

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:50:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (4.00 / 3)

I'm seeing 4 dead, 4 wounded. Shelled the rescue party too apparently.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:55:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (4.00 / 2)

Can you immagine what would happen if some German troops in a NATO force shot a couple of Israelis?

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:52:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Guardian Breaking (none / 1)

Huge news in the Guardian.

Palestinian groups agree deal for return of Israeli

Palestinian factions, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad, have agreed to stop firing rockets at Israel and to free a captured Israeli soldier in a deal brokered by Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president.
The deal, agreed on Sunday, is to halt the rocket attacks in return for a cessation of Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip, and to release Corporal Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier captured on June 25, in exchange for the freeing of Palestinian prisoners at some point in the future.

An adviser to Mr Abbas told the Guardian that all Palestinian politicians were united on the need to free the Israeli soldier and stop all violence in Gaza, but the obstacles were the Israeli government and the Hamas leadership in Damascus.

Apleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 05:57:03 PM EST

Re: Guardian Breaking (none / 1)

But will this be enough for the Israelis?

What are the odds there will be some mumbling about how it's too late now and that the Hezbollah threat has to be totally eradicated for the continuing peace and safety of etc?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:48:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Guardian Breaking (none / 0)

This is for Gaza...it is up to the Israelis to accept calm in Gaza...

I expect to accept it..and I also expect the offer to get more publicity..if it is real.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 03:48:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Guardian Breaking (none / 1)

Heh. I could have predicted the IDF's response, had I not read it before reading the above. Israel kills nine Palestinians.

GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli forces killed nine Palestinians, comprising seven militants, a three-year-old girl and another civilian, in fighting across the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, medics and witnesses said.
Israel has stepped up air strikes and launched raids into Gaza to stop rocket attacks and recover a soldier captured by militants on June 25. The army has killed 129 Palestinians since it began its assault. About half were civilians.

This was the IDF's mode of operation since ages (and often Hezbollah's and Hamas's too): whenever there is a sign of advancement to a peaceful solution on the other side, let's provoke 'em another time...

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 05:40:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Guardian Breaking (none / 1)

Gee....let's going to press alitlle bit more Damascus tso that they say no.... They just really belive in force...because it is clear that Gaza does nto mean anything now for Israel...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 05:42:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 1)

Bush pilot:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3934788900154749704

LOL. Those Germans crack me up!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:50:33 PM EST

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 0)

This is like those home videos in Goodbye, Lenin.

Great catch, poemless!

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 01:36:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 0)

That's exactly what I thought! That was a great movie by the way. Thanks for recommending it. Or was it Dodo? Either way, it's one of those films that keeps slipping back into my conscience every now and then.

A co-worker e-mailed me the link to the clip.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 02:39:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Open Thread - Tuesday Evening (none / 0)

It was afew and me, I think.

The Bush Pilot clip should also be a good tool countering the "Germans don't have humour" stereotype.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 27th, 2006 at 04:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Open Thread - Tuesday Evening | 77 comments (77 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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