The limits of Western power.

by Colman
Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:16:48 AM EST

Recent events in Iraq and Lebanon lead me to wonder if the necessity to maintain at least minimal support for wars by avoiding large spikes in our casualty rates makes it impossible for modern, high-tech, highly connected democracies to successfully prosecute aggressive wars.

The US/UK war in Iraq has clearly been hampered, if not lost, through the philosophy of force protection. US forces have taken a very aggressive approach to minimising risks to their troops. The resulting atrocities - civilians shot for driving too close to US forces for instance - have fed the insurgency and destroyed any chance of winning support for the occupation forces. The military philosophy that prefers to call in “precision” air support in urban areas rather than risk troops causes civilian deaths and reduces the likelihood of actually killing or capturing the targets of the action while simultaneously recruiting for your opponents.

The Israeli Army’s need to avoid casualties is partly driven by need: Israel is a small country and can’t afford to replace large numbers of combat losses but it appears to be hampering their action in Lebanon in a similar fashion - they have hoped for air power would do the heavy killing and that troops would be relatively unopposed. As Billmon notes, Hezbollah hadn’t read that plan so didn’t know what they were meant to do. Pat Lang has more to say about the futility of relying on aerial bombardment in this sort of war.

To fight a guerilla war with conventional military forces requires massive deployment of infantry in close combat, with the concomitant losses. You need to be everywhere, all the time, using only minimum force in order to minimise civilian deaths. Valuing the lives of your troops in tens of civilian lives guarantees that you will kill so many that you will create the army that will defeat you.

The alternatives to military action - honest negotiation for instance - are too protracted, too soft, too complicated and too stereotypically feminine for the macho men and women that are in charge at the moment. They also have the disadvantage of possibly being effective, unlike military action.


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I'm assuming that democracies don't like knowingly committing genocide.

I'm hoping that assumption remains operative.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:18:27 AM EST
In the Billmon post you link to:
I'm disappointed to see that even Martin van Creveld, whose work I admire, has fallen prey to the comforting delusion that the situation can be salvaged with ever more destructive applications of firepower:
The problem in Lebanon is not Israel's "excessive" use of violence. Quite the opposite, the real problem could be Israel's extreme reluctance to use a sufficiently high level of force to solve this problem once and for all.
Dr. van Creveld, more than most, should understand where that logic ends in this kind of war: defeat or genocide. For some time now, one of my biggest fears has been that the neocons and their helpmates will finally drag America into a situation in the Midlde East where those are the only choices.
You will remember this:
But the fact is that we lost in Vietnam, and today, despite our vast power, we are only slogging along--if admirably--in Iraq against a hit-and-run insurgency that cannot stop us even as we seem unable to stop it. Yet no one--including, very likely, the insurgents themselves--believes that America lacks the raw power to defeat this insurgency if it wants to. So clearly it is America that determines the scale of this war. It is America, in fact, that fights so as to make a little room for an insurgency.

...

This is a fact that must be integrated into our public life--absorbed as new history--so that America can once again feel the moral authority to seriously tackle its most profound problems. Then, if we decide to go to war, it can be with enough ferocity to win.

And Alan Dershowitz has moved on from redefining torture to redefining civilian, and is clearly on the path to redefining human.

Now tell me how the theory goes that democracies cannot engage in genocide?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:29:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some members will be perfectly happy to engage in genocide. I still believe that the majority of US voters won't knowingly support it.

And I didn't say "cannot".

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:32:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
All you have to do is drill it into their heads that "it's us or them", and label as "traitors" any politicians who dare suggest that those are not the only choices.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:35:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're assuming that that is sufficient in a modern democracy: I don't think the propaganda can be that effective. I think the failure of support for current US policy indicates I might just be right.

They need to close down  a lot more of the communications channels to successfully fool enough of the population to get away with real, large-scale genocide.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:37:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At which point [rampant propaganda and control of communication channels] it presumably ceases to be a democracy?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:39:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Effectively.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:41:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're assuming that that is sufficient in a modern democracy: I don't think the propaganda can be that effective. I think the failure of support for current US policy indicates I might just be right.

On the contrary, in the US the propoganda has been extremely effective. Many Americans still support their President even though he is just a dangerous idiot figurehead, since their innate and unwavering patriotism (susceptibility to propaganda) is manipulated by the same people who manipulate their President. For the same ends.

The lack of support outside of the US for these crimes merely goes to show how much constant exposure to propaganda is required for the recipient to become mindless.

Thank heavens some Europeans still retain some ability to think for themselves.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:51:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Many Americans

But not enough. Too much is leaking through. More would leak through as the level of atrocity increased.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:52:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They could have gotten away with anything they wanted in March 2003. For all we know, they did get away with gross crimes against humanity [white phosphorus, deliberate targeing of all "military age males"] in the second siege of Fallujah.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 06:56:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
as it always does...

Propoganda only works 100% when media channels are few, under control, and one way.

That is not the situation today and I doubt even the neocon thinkers had consulted a Futurist in the 3 decades they have been planning all this.

I am pretty sure that they predicted compliant media, not increasingly decentralized information media, such as this one, that we are in now.

Had we had compliant and centralized media today, the picture would be very grim. Even worse. Because the Americans would still be waving flags and looking forward to the next demonstration of US might and right.

So, another technological advance changes the game. Just in time. (though the seeds of the Internet were sown long ago)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 07:56:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe that's what the "Net Neutrality" battle is all about. Closing the last loophole, à la Chinese.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 08:05:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah, that's mostly about money, though the possible chilling effects on community/free publishing may have helped gather support.

It's yet another attempt by the big telecoms companies to get their hands on a bigger slice of the Internet pie by state-sponsored monopoly powers. They've been at it since the Internet started growing.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 08:12:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure the people who were against the legislation were partly politically motivated, and certainly not hindered by the Administration. It's more than just the money (though think of the benefits when you own part of it)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 10:16:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't share this optimistic view.

On one hand, had you lived in a country with controlled media, you knew that many/most people don't trust it by default, trusting rumours more than papers or TV. On the other hand, the 'decentralised media' we have has a lot of problems: 1) it has done very little in terms of getting information -- it excels in analysis, making connections, and pushing some information in the forefront; 2) it is very fractured: Kos, Eurotrib et al are only reservates for the fact-based comunity, while other sites serve to further fanatise the faithful, turning propaganda from one dinosaur into a hundred-headed dragon surrounding the supceptible from all sides, and spewing out counter-spin to the other side1s analysis at record speed and no costs involved; 3) the Blogosphere is still a minority phenomenon, something for relatively well-off political junkies, not reached by the wide majority.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 08:26:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a difference between knowing your media are under State control, and not knowing it. It is clear that many are not aware of the enormous control in the Western world of media, and the 6 big media groups that own a lot of it.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 10:20:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Barbara always says "at least under Communism we knew we were being lied to". But I shouldn't put words in her mouth, she should diary it.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 10:23:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the meme that propaganda can work - courtesy of Goebbels and Bernays - is fantastically corrosive to democracy. It suggests that if you're a thug, you'll always get away with being a thug.

In reality propaganda only seems to work up to a point. Even when you lock down all of the media and force them to be on-message, private thoughts and semi-private conversations guarantee that dissenting points of view will spread. In fact a state-wide campaign of violence and terror - such as the one in North Korea - will always be necessary to minimise dissent. Media control on its own can never be enough.

Bush's US is a good demonstration. Even with a solid and unified media campaign, the majority of the public aren't buying the official line.

A useful activist thing to do would be to start debunking the power of propaganda. Marketing and PR types make a living by pretending that it's more powerful than it really is. It would be naive to pretend it's not influential, but claims for its omnipotence seem to have been more than a little exaggerated.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 08:26:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
their innate and unwavering patriotism (susceptibility to propaganda)...
.... mindless.
Thank heavens some Europeans still retain some ability to think for themselves.

Yes, 30-40% of Americans is indeed "many Americans".  But polls indicate that 50-60% of Americans -- i.e. a lot more Americans -- disapprove of the president, and that number has been steadily climbing.

So I don't think the American population as a whole is as vulnerable to government propaganda as you believe.

I will admit, however, that I am repeatedly blown away and humbled by the extensive knowledge and sophisticated thinking of so many people on this forum, most of whom I believe are Europeans.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 07:53:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, fortunately for the world, Europe does not engage in military adventures.
by asdf on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 08:53:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not as eagerly, no.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 09:01:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is if you forget about NATO ... or if you think about it as chess club...or something...
Who knows they may play chess right now in Afghanistan...as they played video games up over Serbia...
by vbo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 10:06:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When Admiral Halsey made the genocidal prophecy that "When this war is over, the Japanese langauge shall be spoken only in hell", he spoke for far more than a mere fringe of the American population...
by GCarty (GJCarty2002 at yahoo dot co dot yoo-kay) on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 12:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 07:14:25 AM EST
Very,good analysis Colman.

I'll say something over at KOS.

And very perceptive comments also.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 09:01:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... the necessity to maintain at least minimal support for wars by avoiding large spikes in our casualty rates makes it impossible for modern, high-tech, highly connected democracies to successfully prosecute aggressive wars.

Was NATO's war against Serbia an example of a successfully prosecuted aggressive war by modern, high-tech, highly connected democracies?

If so, what made that war different from the current conflicts in Iraq and Lebanon?  Is the difference a primarily cultural one (among the populations being attacked); for example, would Serb forces not have been willing to fight a defensive guerilla war in their own country which would very likely reduce it to rubble?  Or are there more significant material or political differences that made it impossible for Serbia to continue fighting while Iraqis and Hezbollah (at least for now) refuse to give up; for example, the relative lack of support for the U.S./Israel in the latter wars compared with the relatively large number of major countries aligned against Serbia?

I imagine one significant difference is the actual demographic make-up of the territory being defended from aggression.  In Kosovo, which Serbs felt deeply to be an integral part of the Serbian "homeland", only 10% of the population were actually while 80% were Albanians.  On the other hand, there is no doubt that Lebanon is populated predominantly by Lebanese and Iraq by Iraqis.

Perhaps if NATO had wanted to prosecute the war until Milosevic were captured, for example, the Serbs would have not given up, turning to guerilla warfare and forcing NATO to cause large spikes in casualty rates using precision air support.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 07:39:59 AM EST
I'd go with the demography, and that was a more conventional conflict, wasn't it? With armies in the field and all that as opposed to real guerilla warfare? Though South Lebanon is a bit of hybrid in that respect.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 07:42:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right on. In fact, your analysis is more true than you realise: for NATO failed with its loftier original objectives.

First, the war plan was an air war increased in three steps in hope of the regime crumbling: first bombs on Serbian forces in Kosovo, then in all of Yugoslavia, then bombs to wreck the economic background (bombing bridges, refineries, administration buildings far away from Kosovo -- being closest, the senseless destruction of the Danube bridges in Novi Sad are most in my memory). But this plan didn't work out: stage 3 was reached in the first weeks, but still nothing happened, and NATO had no better idea than continue bombing, scrambling to find targets. Finally the regime moved when there was a threat of invasion by ground forces (which I then thought they should have done on day one).

Second, what NATO got from Milošević in the end was not more than what he offered himself in Rambouillet, before the KLA representatives made talks fail. The hoped-for crumbling of the regime as citizens blamed Milo for the destruction of their country didn't happen, in fact it was the opposition that was temporalily weakened, and permanently tainted: while the following in no small part European-shouldered effort to unite and prop up the opposition did result in Milo's overthrow a year later, NATO's bombardement made Yugoslavia more of an economic ruin and made nationalists' job of blame games much easier, resulting in today's mess.

Third, instead of preventing or stopping a genocide, the Serb regular and irregular forces turned a mostly anti-insurgency fight into violent ethnic cleansing after the bombs began to fall -- and KLA and ex-KLA forces began their own ethnic cleansing and murder campaign after the Serbian forces left.

Fourth, the NATO->UN->EU control of Kosovo is also a mess, they proved incapable of damming the ethnic cleansing and the build of organised crime (with Kosovan mafias later controlling a good chunk of European drugs and human smuggling and the modern slave trade called woman trafficking), as they too often resorted to force defence rather than intervene.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 08:44:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The answer about Serbian case is a little bit more complicated. It would take dissertation to just seriously start to understand it.
Serbs are not suicidal and in their history they learned that there is more then one way to win the war. That does not mean that they are not ready to die for their freedom and land. Have a look at WWI and WWII number of victims. And guerilla war is not unknown in their neck of the woods.
But they need really strong leader and clear goal. Milosevic tried to act as a strong leader (especially at the beginning until his weakness was not revealed) but from the beginning up to the end from his idiotic moves Serbs (or at least half of them) couldn't clearly see what is it that they need to die for...and kill for. Clearly there was no unity (common problem between Serbs), because there was no plan clearly exposed. On the other hand  in a way Serbs haven't finished their WWII civil war between communists and royalists in their heads yet , and Milosevic declaring his self as a communist , ha-ha , had no chance to unite Serbs.  First there was no clear plan in Slovenia and then more important Croatia and destruction of Vukovar have turned most of the nation off our "fight for freedom". It simply was obvious that this is going to be very dirty war on our part.
Serbs in Bosnia were much more successful (in their military effort) because they really felt at home and they had clear military targets. As for Kosovo as much as we feel attached fact is that we have lost most of the territories there by simple fact as birth rate is. So sooner or later we'll have to say goodbye to at least half of it because it's simply not praiseworthy to maintain. Too costly...
But make no mistake if Milosevic did not sign (like he always did sign worse proposal then he had at the first place) and if NATO solders let ground forces enter Serbia the guerilla war would be present till this very day. NATO bombardment managed to unite Serbs as Milosevic him self never would be able. That's why he stayed in power after that.  At the time of bombardment I remember talking to the people there by phone and e-mail and they prayed for Americans to come and fight "face to face" on the ground instead of cowardly "spilling" bombs from the sky. People are proud and hate occupation (like I assume most of other nations and a little bit more).I wonder what would be scenario if any of the western European nations (UK, France for example) would be attacked by NATO and abandoned by everyone else?
Serbs even made jokes during bombardment like when they manage to destroy that "invisible" plane (F16 or what ever was the name).
"Oooopppsss! Sorry we didn't see it"...was their answer. This kind of humor had helped  them to remain sane I suppose.
NATO war with Serbia is definitely not an example to compare with these wars of Middle East.
And Kosovo and Balkan wars are not over yet...they actually are endless...Too much blood has been spilled during centuries and there was never enough time between it for at least one generation to forget about it. I am not going to live long enough to see what if anything these EU memberships (in promise) for ex YU nations can achieve.  
by vbo on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:10:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The answer about Serbian case is a little bit more complicated. It would take dissertation to just seriously start to understand it.

Well, it falls short of a dissertation, but I still think it might serve as a primer:

A brief history of Kosovo: part I

A brief history of Kosovo: part II


The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:38:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In WWI and WWII, the Serbs were victims of Austrian or Nazi aggression.  In the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo, the Serbs were themselves the aggressors.
by GCarty (GJCarty2002 at yahoo dot co dot yoo-kay) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 01:55:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well you are kind of right, but only in a way....and even that maybe...
Serbs did fight on the territory that was their own country named Yugoslavia (not like coalition of the "billing" in Afghanistan and Iraq or Israel in Lebanon now), they did not occupy any other foreign country, and you know there was no aggression  legally. They fought partition of their country that they made spilling blood in WWI and WWII..
Problem is that being strongest militarily they used excessive force...Why this reminds me so much of these bustards today mentioned above?
by vbo on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 04:21:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you very much for this response.  I remember "Sorry, we didn't see it banner" very well.  My Serbian friends suggested I watch Podzemlje and Crna macka, beli macor to understand Serbian humor, both of which I loved.

On this point:

NATO war with Serbia is definitely not an example to compare with these wars of Middle East.

from what I read in your response, the difference you see comes down to the demographic make-up of the territory being defended:

As for Kosovo as much as we feel attached fact is that we have lost most of the territories there by simple fact as birth rate is. So sooner or later we'll have to say goodbye to at least half of it because it's simply not praiseworthy to maintain. Too costly...

since you also pointedly write that

if NATO solders let ground forces enter Serbia the guerilla war would be present till this very day.

In other words, Colman's thesis -- when limited to guerilla warfare -- still holds.  The Kosovo War was not a guerilla war.  But would have become one, had NATO invaded Serbia.  In which case, according to Colman's thesis, air power would not have been enough to defeat Serbia, and moreover would have caused far more civilian casualties then it did.  At least on this point, NATO seems to have been smart.

Out of curiosity, do you agree with DoDo's point above:

what NATO got from Miloševi? in the end was not more than what he offered himself in Rambouillet, before the KLA representatives made talks fail.


Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco (cowannar at gmail punkt com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 07:14:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
The Kosovo War was not a guerilla war.  But would have become one, had NATO invaded Serbia.  In which case, according to Colman's thesis, air power would not have been enough to defeat Serbia, and moreover would have caused far more civilian casualties then it did.  At least on this point, NATO seems to have been smart.
---
I agree but I don't know if NATO have been smart or they (and Serbs in a way) were lucky that Milosevic lost his nerves after terrific bombardment of infrastructure of Serbia and agreed to sign peace. In a way Serbs psychologically were ready and willing to fight guerilla war on the ground ...even those Serbs that hated Milosevic. That's how NATO united them. They even hated Milosevic for signing peace at that point.
To understand Serbs (even others on Balkan) you have to understand that there are points when for them death is just "elementary tempest" and while they'll try to avoid it they feel that there are things more important then to just simply stay alive.

Quote:
What NATO got from Milosevic? In the end was not more than what he offered himself in Rambouillet, before the KLA representatives made talks fail.
---
I don't know if anybody knows exactly what NATO got from Milosevic or Milosevic from NATO...really. I remember that people were talking about NATO forces walking freely in and through entire Serbia like occupying forces (this is a terrible thought for us) was one of the thingies predicted in Rambouillet. I don't see them in Serbia to this day all though there are rumors  now of letting them use some airports etc. There is simply not transparency there at the moment. I only can say that in order to have person who signs on Serbian side for Kosovo (or even part of Kosovo) independence, live more then 24 hours after that,  Serbs need to get other Serbian lands (where Serbs live) like in Bosnia etc. become part of Serbia. It can only bee that way or there is no way anything signed will hold for the future. As we say "Paper can endure anything"... but  reality...

by vbo on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 04:53:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's misleading to talk about war in this way. War, traditionally, means a series of set-piece battles between uniformed soldiers.

The Iraq invasion against Saddam was a war, the subsequent campaign against insurgency is not. Maybe we need new definitions to describe it because it seems to me that without such we end up in confusions of valid means and objectives. For instance, if Lebanon and Israel were at war, bombing Beirut might be legitimate. In the absence of a declaration of war it is either a war crime or an act of terrorism.

I know it seems strange to be arguing semantics but it matters. The nature of the conflict determines the entire set of what can or cannot be achieved. Whether it is war between states, a conflict between occupation and resistance or that between a state and a militarised terrorist unit.

So here I think Colman's question is not comparing like for like. Invading a nation like Iraq requires low casualties because, whatever the newspaper propaganda, it is embarrassing to lose soldiers when you're shooting fish in a barrel. Yet a just war between equals such as WWII would still be supportable despite high casualties because of the very risk to the nature of the state itself.

However, once we talk about insurgency or terrorist groups we are at a different point in the political scale. To quote Max Hastings from the Guardian;-

The defeat of terrorism is best achieved through an unglamorous cocktail of politics, diplomacy, intelligence, bribery, police work and special forces operations. Above all, a successful campaign offers the society from which the terrorists are drawn a just political dispensation. Contrary to widespread belief, the British did not defeat the 1950s Malayan insurgency by brilliant soldiering, but by shrewd politicking, which included a promise to quit the country. Northern Ireland today may not be a satisfactory place, but it owes its relative tranquillity to politics and economics rather than to 30 years of counter-terrorist campaigning.

It ain't girly to negotiate, however unsatisfying that may be to macho politicians, because there must come a point where the powerful realise that such asymmetric struggle does not arise out of a vacuum, even if it is convenient to pretend otherwise. It is fuelled by grievance, real or imagined, that must, in some ways, be resolved fairly by agreement and not imposition.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 09:15:07 AM EST
I think it's misleading to talk about war in this way. War, traditionally, means a series of set-piece battles between uniformed soldiers.
I disagree. We have words for all these nuances: guerrilla war, militia, troops can be described as regular or irregular, we have insurgency... It's still war, and "fourth generation warfare" has been with us for 200 years at least. The problem is that sometimes one of the sides is waging the wrong kind of war. As in
We cannot win in Iraq, Hersh said. "We have no intel. We can't find the insurgents. When they bomb something, we only know about it afterward. We can't figure them out. Someone said, 'We play chess, they play Go.' All we can do is lose. All we can do is bomb."
Since Napoleon was kicked out of Spain in 1808-12 it's become increasingly clear that armies cannot beat guerrillas unless they are prepared to massacre the local population.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 09:33:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's worth noting that all of the definitions are determined by the stronger side. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter etc etc.

I ask for better definitions as it seems to me thatthe current ones allow the powerful to become deluded about their objectives and thus apply inappropriate responses, ie massacre of populations.

They need to understand when it is more effective to talk rather than shoot. Which, I guess also implies taking into account of cultural dispositions etc.

I still stand by the point that insurgencies and campaigns against terrorism are not the same as war and so cannot be compared. How those involved prefer to describe them is immaterial.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 09:38:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if someone decides to deploy the army, it becomes a war even if on the other side there are only insurgents, or terrorists, or simply civilians. I don't think it makes sense to describe Israel's actions in Lebanon as other than "war".

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 09:45:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I accept your point. Unfortunately, by designating it a war like any other, the IDF have deluded themselves into believing this is a classic war against a nation state and are behaving accordingly.

It may be a war by current definitions, but as it is not against a nation state their conduct of it is strategically stupid, "disproportionate" and ulitmately self-defeating.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 09:54:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I ask for better definitions as it seems to me thatthe current ones allow the powerful to become deluded about their objectives and thus apply inappropriate responses, ie massacre of populations.

I think Richard Lyon described it best down below - winning against guerillas is the business of empire.

It has been done in the past, so it could certainly be done again. But the requirement for success seems to be massive brutality that would make any modern regime, even Bush's, look angelic.

And yes, you need a standing army, and local volunteers/conscripts.

The idea that war is a series of pitched battles has only really been true in exceptional situations. The battles are the visible part of a more organic process which relies on diplomacy, economics, politics, and espionage - anything to gain an advantage.

Stopping an insurgency doesn't just require regime change, it requires culture change. You can only really do it by decapitation (sometimes literal) of the insurgency's leadership, followed up by repression of the followers.

Politically today this is unacceptable. So it's very likely impossible for any nominally accountable democracy to beat an insurgency by violence alone.

But is it a war? It's not in the traditional sense - not just because there are no pitched battles, but because wars traditionally end either when armies are destroyed or leaders are killed.

When you don't have an army to fight, and you don't have a single leader in command to take out, it's hard to know whether you've won or not.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 08:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would like to point out that to the best of my knowledge this is how the war in Chechnya has been 'won' by Russia, by massive depopulation.

I have got no good sources, but I remember numbers pointing towards only a third of the prewar population now lives in Chechnya.

A vote for PES is a vote for EPP! A vote for EPP is a vote for PES! Support the coalition, vote EPP-PES in 2009!

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jul 26th, 2006 at 08:20:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The definition of "war" is certainly unsatisfactory.

I don't however that potential embarrassment is sufficient to justify military tactics that both guarantees failure at the strategic level and happens to kill many times more civilians than "necessary".

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 09:37:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't however that potential embarrassment is sufficient to justify military tactics that both guarantees failure at the strategic level and happens to kill many times more civilians than "necessary".

My point exactly. Bad definitions lead to bad strategies

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 09:40:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There was a far simpler reason why the British won in the Malayan Emergency, namely that the Communist Terrorists were drawn exclusively from the minority ethnic Chinese population, and therefore had zero popular support among the Malay majority.
by GCarty (GJCarty2002 at yahoo dot co dot yoo-kay) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 10:03:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is extremely helpful. I fear that the current geniuses would manage to get the majority population to support the terrorists somehow though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 10:06:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The task of controlling guerilla insurgencies in occupied territory is the maintainence of empire. No amount of high tech military hardware will replace the need for ground troops. The 19th C colonial powers were able to accomplish this with colonial regiments commanded by European officers. The ideal approach for the American Empire in its self appointed role of world cop would be to combine its high tech gear with ample supplies of outsourced third world cannon fodder. The folks at home wouldn't have to deal with significant American casualties and the arms manufactures would be ecstatic.

So far, it ain't happening. European countries are not interested in maintaining large standing armies and more and more third world countries are exploring ways to avoid doing the bidding of the US.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:10:40 AM EST
Strange, Mr. Lyon, I've been thinking along those same lines for about 2 years.

Where would you recruit the Colonial Army?

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 12:53:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this is an inaccurate characterization of what is going on. Iran might be an example of a country that is not wanting to do "the bidding of the U.S." in your theory, but in fact it is doing exactly what the U.S. is most interested in.

Since the primary interest of the U.S. (and Europe; don't kid yourself that Europe has a significantly different set of interests than America) is to keep the oil flowing, the way that these small countries could distance themselves from America would be to stop selling oil. But they don't.

by asdf on Tue Jul 25th, 2006 at 07:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is it not the case that the US armed forces recruit non American citizens from places like Latin America and the Philippines, with the promise of citizenship after 20 years of service (or whatever).

This is the same deal the Roman Empire gave to non-citizens within the Empire and barbarians from outside it. The Romans also threw in land in border areas or newly conquered provinces, as an added incentive for surviving veterans. Thus they filled the ranks of the army and strengthened pro-Roman elements in strategic places.

by Gary J on Thu Jul 27th, 2006 at 05:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Pentagon is also incresingly using mercenaries. Apparently former Latin American death squad types, South African military and police Apartheid enforcers, Pinochetistas, ex Marines...

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 27th, 2006 at 05:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
France too has the Légion étrangère. They used to crush Arab revolts and mess in Subsaharan Africa. Sarko's father became citizen this way.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Jul 27th, 2006 at 05:55:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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