***Europe Worker Pool: Shrinking?

by Richard Lyon
Mon Aug 14th, 2006 at 03:50:30 AM EST

Here's an interesting perspective on the European employment picture from the Associated Press.

Europe Faces A Shrinking Pool of Workers

With almost 5 million people out of work, Germany's labor market might seem a manager's dream when it comes to filling jobs - easy pickings from a sea of desperate applicants. Not so for entrepreneur Martin Hubschneider when he needs top talent for his software firm in Karlsruhe, Germany.

He's got to look far and wide, searching for the skills needed to develop the complex customer relations programs his CAS Software AG sells.

"For a year now, it has been harder to find employees in the information technology field, particularly highly qualified ones," Hubschneider said.

Bosses like Hubschneider are confronting a paradox: In a country with unemployment of over 10 percent, there is a deepening shortage of skilled workers in some industries. Rich European nations like Germany and France have been cracking down on immigration in reaction to concerns about joblessness, but many economists say western Europe needs precisely the opposite approach: Attracting foreign labor to offset a graying population.

more below...

From the fron page, with title and format edit ~ whataboutbob


Over the next decade and beyond, experts say, more overseas workers will be needed to keep companies like Hubschneider's competitive, prop up shaky pension systems, and fuel economic growth.

Many leading economists and politicians say Germany, France, Britain and other western European countries could use a points system like the kind used by Canada and Australia, where prospective immigrants get graded on meeting skills criteria. In June, France passed a law that stiffens rules for immigrants but makes it easier for those with special skills to get in.

But the notion of a points system has been slow to catch on in Europe and faces strong resistance from center-left parties.

The eastern expansion of the European Union has often been cited as a way to ease the labor crunch. But here, too, there is a problem: Most of the new members that joined in 2004 also have low birth rates. Poland's for example is 1.3 children per woman - far lower than the 2.1 needed to maintain steady population.

Fresh supplies of labor, it seems, may have to come from farther afield - the EU's near neighbors such as Ukraine or Turkey, which have ambitions of joining the bloc, or from China or India.

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We hear this a lot in the US, too. We supposedly have a shortage of high-tech workers so we need to allow more skilled immigrants into the country (who just happen to be willing to do the same jobs as American workers for 15% to 50% lower pay). The result during our last high-tech boom?

U.S. high tech companies are also exposing American workers to low-wage, high tech competition through the rapidly growing practice of importing foreign technology professionals from developing countries. These workers -- known as H-1B workers, after the visa regulating their entry into the United States -- are allegedly needed because American high tech industries face a potentially crippling labor shortage. The numbers of these workers have recently been increased from 65,000 to 115,000, and industry is on the verge of pushing through yet another quota hike. . . . employers routinely pay them less than their U.S.-born counterparts receive, with the pay gap standing at 15-50 percent, according to independent estimates.

Just as important, wage and salary trends in high tech industries like software, where H-1Bs have been concentrated, belie the high tech companies' claims of a labor shortage. They strongly indicate that industry is using the new influx of low-paid foreign workers to pump up the supply of labor available to American business and thereby reduce or preempt wage pressures.

Indeed, the unemployment rate for computer programmers over the age of 50 has been reliably estimated at an astonishing 17 percent, and as of 1997, 6.1 percent of new computer science Ph.D.s could not find stable, full-time employment. Small wonder that, according to economist Robert Lerman of The American University, salaries for computer scientists, operations researchers and computer programmers have been absolutely flat for most of the 1990s. Moreover, recent volatility in technology stock prices indicates that stock options are not always adequate substitutes for more conventional forms of compensation.

Remember, this was happening in the US during the 1990s, when we were supposed to be in the middle of a tech boom.

Dean Baker makes a similar point:

Ordinarily, the claim that there is a people shortage would imply that wages are rising at an extraordinary rate. (This is the way economists ordinarily think about markets - shortages mean higher prices.) This means that there is a quick way to verify . . . claims about a people shortage: see if wages . . . have been rising at an extraordinary rate.

I don't know what's specifically happening to wages and employment in Europe's high-tech sector (anybody have this info?), but economy-wide wage growth is not all that spectacular right now:


Wage Growth Slows

Growth in real wages slowed to 0.6 percent across the 12 euro nations last year from 0.8 percent in 2004, according to the European Industrial Relations Observatory's Web site, damping the effect of higher employment.

-- Bloomberg, 8/7/06

And we all know about the unemployment problems. Why can't European firms invest a little in turning unemployed European youth into qualified tech workers? Or make greater efforts to retain and upgrade the skills of older tech workers? Maybe they wouldn't be able to exploit cheap labor that way?

Of course, this kind of argument plainly contradicts the usual story we get about European labor markets:

It is striking how commentators can make seemingly contradictory claims about Europe's dire fate with great confidence. The basic story is that Europe's high wages and labor market protections lead to high unemployment. This is crisis # 1 - too many workers.

Then we find crisis # 2 on the horizon, a surge in the ratio of retirees to workers, which is compounded by Europe's slow population growth. The essence of crisis #2 is not enough workers. . . . In other words, the Europe critics seem to be telling completely contradictory scare stories, without even recognizing this fact.

In the long run, I'd put my money on a labor surplus, not a labor shortage, even in high tech:

What Really Ails Europe (and America): The Doubling of the Global Workforce

. . . the advent of 1.47 billion new workers also pressures labor in advanced countries. The traditional trade story has been that most workers in advanced countries benefit from trade with developing countries because advanced country workers are skilled, while developing country workers are unskilled.

But this analysis has become increasingly obsolete due to the massive investments that the large populous developing countries are making in human capital. China and India are producing millions of college graduates capable of doing the same work as the college graduates of the United States, Japan or Europe -- at much lower pay.

A shifting monopoly

By 2010, China will graduate more PhDs in science and engineering than the United States. The huge number of highly educated workers in India and China threatens to undo the traditional pattern of trade between advanced and less developed countries.

Historically, advanced countries have innovated high-tech products that require high-wage educated workers and extensive R&D, while developing countries specialize in old manufacturing products. The reason for this was that the advanced countries had a near monopoly on scientists and engineers and other highly educated workers.

Job migration

As China, India and other developing countries have increased their number of university graduates, this monopoly on high-tech innovative capacity has diminished. Today, most major multinationals have R&D centers in China or India, so that the locus of technological advance may shift.

Certainly, the rate of technological catch-up will grow, reducing the lead of advanced countries over the lower wage developing countries.

Business experts report that if the work is digital -- which covers perhaps 10% of employment in the United States -- it can and eventually will be off-shored to low-wage highly educated workers in developing countries.

If and when Russia gets its economic act together, labor market pressures on educated and skilled workers will grow.

by TGeraghty on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 01:49:28 AM EST
Very well said, TG!

I don't have any formal figures to hand, but informally, the UK tech job market is seeing slow wage growth after years of stagnation. There's little evidence that tech sector wages are growing faster at this moment than manufacturing. One exception in the UK market is IT in the financial sector, but that's always been a bubble market because the banks have bizarre mindsets about their recruiting (and it tends to show in their appalling project success rate.)

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 03:55:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We have talked about this a lot here at ET...but I personally do think immigration is a good thing, and filling jobs and bringing taxes to support the aging population are a few of the good reasons.

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 06:13:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point Bob.

Having taken advantage of free movement of workers and railed against overly bureaucratic immigration procedures I am probably not the best person to be speaking about some of these issues.

To clarify my point, I feel very strongly that there is a laziness inside a lot of the IT industry. Back in the day, it was a new industry, so everyone accepted that you would have to train people, or get people who could learn on the job.

Now (perhaps not surprisingly with the growing influx of "respectable managers" from "respectable industries") there is a bizarre tendency to believe that the job market should supply plentiful candidates on tap. And if it doesn't then the only way forward is to recruit workers from around the globe.

To his credit, the guy from the company quoted has set up a local training scheme, but the attitude of himself and Forbes are still quite bizarre:

"We need very well educated people, who understand the culture well," said Hubschneider. The company needs computer specialists who also have the management skills to run projects and interact with customers, and "fewer pure programmers, because that is work that one can offshore."

Ok, so we're going to outsource the computer specialists, so there's no pool of computer specialists to move up into management skill positions. So we instead expect management types to become specialists? There are issues with that... but that's a diary for another day.

More seriously, if he really thinks he can recruit computer specialists with customer facing management skills from countries which don't speak German (as a generality) then he has some very odd ideas about what skills are required to interact with his customers (and indeed his engineers.)

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 07:13:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose I can't bitch about immigration once I've arrived in Britain, eh?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 11:03:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, there are other things to keep you occupied.

One thing that's fun is getting a bank account (which you cannot do without a fixed address) and a place to live (which you cannot do without having a bank account).

Oh, and I forgot that to get a bank account you need a National Insurance number, for which they want to know your address.

(And to think that in the Netherlands I just showed up at the bank with my passport and proof of employment ... simpler times.)


-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Tue Aug 15th, 2006 at 12:10:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
bringing taxes to support the aging population

I think that argument is almost as false as the anti-immigration argument about "taking away jobs".

The latter is false because on one hand some immigrants take just these kind of jobs where there is a shortage of locals willing or skilled to do it; on the other hand, immigrants not only increase the workforce but the consumer base too, channeling most of their income back to the host country's economy.

The latter two also reduce the scale of immigrants' role on taxes: on one hand, not all immigrants enter sectors with 'worker shortage', on the other hand, not just tax income but tax spending has to increase too. But specifically regarding retirement funds, the main issue is the change of the rate of immigration. For, immigrants will get old and retire too, increasing the circle in need to be financed. Thus a steady rate of immigration could mean the financing of retired ex-immigrants by new immigrants in first-order approximation; a sudden rise would have a temporary positive effect; a bump would have a positive followed by a negative effect.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 01:28:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm for immigration too. I don't want to close the doors, but I would like to see the process managed in a way that doesn't put downward pressure on rich-world living standards.
by TGeraghty on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 09:35:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of the difficulties of the IT sector is the mad rush of technology. If you are a few months out of date with the latest technology, you are effectively unemployable. Hence the high rate of unemployment, I bet that those people stayed too long and came out of their last job just too far behind the current trend to easily catch up.

This has a negative effect on costs, IT departments become paranoid about new technology adoption. You're either at the cutting edge or facing mass defections from your brightest and best. But the cost of being cutting edge is high in terms of this being the most expensive way to work and also the least reliable (cutting edge technology almost always having the most crippling bugs).

And there also comes a point where the individual would really like to sit back on their experience a bit, but can't cos there's always an 18 year old out-teching them.

There is a case to make for being behind the times and sticking with proven mature technologies. After all, nobody writes virii for Win98 and W2K is fairly secure these days, but nobody will take the risk.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 07:04:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I seem to remember unemployment rates in the tech sector being quite low, but I could be wrong.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 10:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was the 1990's. In the US the industry has completely stagnated in terms of job growth. Jobs have been offshored to India at a staggering rate. Ever since the dotcom bust there has been substantial un(under)employment among tech workers.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 10:53:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The word "unsupported" (which will apply to W2K next year I think) is read as "no one outside the company to ultimately take the blame".

I think one problem is that decision makers prefer to invest in "technology" and to place trust in contracts and in other companies, rather than be dependent on the "engineers" in their own company.

(This is the same behavious as when an "average" person chooses a chain car-repair place over an independent one. At the independent one you are at the mercy of someone who knows stuff you do not. At the chain you are a customer.)

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sapere aude

by Number 6 on Fri Aug 18th, 2006 at 09:46:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think one problem is that decision makers prefer to invest in "technology" and to place trust in contracts and in other companies, rather than be dependent on the "engineers" in their own company.

Supposedly there is a rule somewhere that says that companies should concentrate on their core strength and outsource the rest, as an in-house department which is not subject to competitive pressure may underperform...

On the other hand, free-software advocates point out that most of the work done on software is not development but maintenance and support, and so there should be a lot of room for companies providing technical support for open-source software. In fact, an open standard which allows you to shop around for the best support provider is probably advantageous to the user.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 18th, 2006 at 10:10:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure of EU situation, but for US this train is long gone for the IT field. Indeed, in 90s it may be that


unemployment rate for computer programmers over the age of 50 has been reliably estimated at an astonishing 17 percent, and as of 1997, 6.1 percent of new computer science Ph.D.s could not find stable, full-time employment

Now, with tightening of the H1 regime, those ppl still failed to find employment, just all those jobs moved to China and India thus depriving local US economies of money H1 immigrants were spending and of taxes.


Why can't European firms invest a little in turning unemployed European youth into qualified tech workers? Or make greater efforts to retain and upgrade the skills of older tech workers? Maybe they wouldn't be able to exploit cheap labor that way?

Because it's not cost-effective? And while it takes some money, organisational efforts and skills to move those jobs to China and India, it's still cheaper to move jobs there instead of re-training local personel?


In the long run, I'd put my money on a labor surplus, not a labor shortage, even in high tech

Exactly. So the policy question for H1-like programs is if you are willing to take mid-term money from fresh relatively high-payed immigrants for the benefit of local economies or are you going to forgo it outright for the benefit of China and India.

Oh, and for


If and when Russia gets its economic act together, labor market pressures on educated and skilled workers will grow.

I'm not sure what that exactly means. Russia exported millions of specialists in the last years and at the same time it's not suitable for the outsourcing due to the fact that a) good English is not common for the specialists and b) Russian specialists demand higher wages and lower work hours compared to China and India. "Getting its act together" will take a major economic meltdown.

by blackhawk on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 08:39:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because it's not cost-effective?

No, it's more about short-term vs. long-term thinking, about European CEOs switching from looking at dividend to looking at stock price gains, about following the US model of insane cost-cutting.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 01:08:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some of that likely has to do with the fact that US and European companies are increasingly interlocked in their ownership.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 01:24:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but let's face it, the bigger problem is that our economic elites are coveting the riches and 'freedoms' of their American counterparts and that means aping them from ideology through management style to language.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 01:31:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As Jérôme put it:

So if you wonder why the dominant discourse in the business press is that France and Japan (and Germany, which I expect is in the same position) have "stagnant" or "rigid" or "unefficient" economies, remember that they are rigid and unefficient FOR THE RICH.



*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 01:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks especially for that beatthepress quote on crisis #1 vs. crisis #2, I have been vailing about this in the wilderness for too long.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 01:46:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't copy the entire article. There is some more information about the exact nature of the jobs that they say they are having difficulty in filling in Germany. They are able to offshore "pure tech" jobs such as technical programming and system maintenance. This seems to be an issue about people who have a combination of skills in technical development and a sufficient understanding of German language and culture to develop applications for service industries. This may be more of an issue for countries such as Germany who don't have a former colonial base with strong cultural connections, such as the UK or France.

I am inclined to believe that there is an overall surplus of workers in Europe and the US, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of demand for labor that doesn't match the available pool. The problem of trying to retrain existing workers is that the demand for specific job skills often changes so rapidly, that by the time a training program is up and running it is already obsolete.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 09:57:40 AM EST
I, for one, would just love to hear some leader say something like, "we will either employ or train anyone who wants to work"...and figure out a way to get it done. I mean, what has the US spent on Iraq so far...500,000 billion to 1 trillion dollars?? With a fraction of that money we could rebuild infrastructure, develop new technology (energy anyone?), train workers for that new technology, have more teachers, etc. etc. It is totally doable.

I really need to try and write an article about my inner musing sometime...I mean...for example, if the US put 300,000 million dollars in a high interest account that could not be touched but for regular retirement payments. Bingo...old age pension problems solved. Same for education, health care...and on and on...there is so much money being squandered that could go into basic services being guaranteed. Oh, I know, its SOCIALISM (MY GAWD!!)...but all these problems don't have to exist really.. I will make myself do this article soon...

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!

by whataboutbob on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 10:35:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The US has spent quite a bit (nothing like the amount on Iraq) on job training programs that produced shinny new workers that nobody wanted to hire. Government labor programs and industry don't have entirely compatible objectives. The government wants to get people back to work. Industry wants to minimize its labor expense. Creating busy work doesn't accomplish that.

Governments seem more likely to succeed at the kind of long range educational and research programs that develop a national competitive advantage in targeted industries. Asian governments have been effective in doing this. At present the US and European governments aren't doing so well at it.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 10:48:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The US has spent quite a bit (nothing like the amount on Iraq) on job training programs that produced shinny new workers that nobody wanted to hire. Government labor programs and industry don't have entirely compatible objectives.

In Western Europe (particularly in Germany), there is an opposed trend: the industry pushing and demanding the government to take over R&D and worker training (costs), so that they don't have to spend on it as traditional. A mad project.

At present the US and European governments aren't doing so well at it.

Scandinavian countries are doing it as well as the Asian ones. Another way is direct government role in strategic industries, but don't tell anyone.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 01:02:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What an incredibly stupid article. In some jobs the 'supply' of skilled workers is below demand? Wow, what a discovery! And this can happen while the big picture of if high unemployment? Wow, the entire economy isn't going synchronised, wow, give the man a Nobel prize!

...and I thought no journalistic stupidity can surprise me anymore.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 12:57:29 PM EST
I would agree that the article probably is esentially distorted. I find very little about the economics of job flow that isn't. What I think its publication by AP reflects is that there are interest groups in Europe pushing this particular point of view. That in and of itself is news of interest to me.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 01:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guessed so, and nothing wrong about that!

Perhabs I should explain some ET history, as you arrived on ET about when our 'Dear Leader', e.g. ET founder Jerome a Paris went on vacation. Being an economist (more precisely an investment banker), and French to boot, when he's around there is a strong focus on economics, specifically the assault of the neoliberal/ marketista/ 'Anglo-Saxon'/ pick-the-name-you-prefer economic ideology on Europe. So ever since ET is around, we are flagging such articles and cursing at them -- you are more than welcome to join in!

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 01:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you visited the wiki? (see the link on the upper-right box)

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 02:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, Rich, please do join the fun while good ol' J is vacationing down under.

Being myself in the hi-tech industry and having worked in the US as well as in France, I've already heard this skill set shortage story countless of times.

Of course, what these kind of stories never tell, is what kind of extremely skilled employee profile the German entrepeneur mentioned in the story is looking for: under 30 and working for EUR 25K tops?
No wonder he isn't finding. People like that are likely to be in their 40s and asking salaries north of EUR 60K.

Reading EE Times regularly, I've seen that the unemployment rate for engineers is the USA is actually higher than the rate for the general population.

What I'm reading here: there's a shortage of cheap skilled workers. Hence the EU companies developing their workforce in India & China, just like their US counterparts.

BTW, Chinese CEOs earn only a tiny fraction of what their US or EU colleagues are taking from their shareholders. How about offshoring the executive suite to Beijing? [crickets chirping]

As mentioned in the comments, the alleged worker shortage should result in sharply rising wages, right?
Well, the figures I've seen for France's high-tech industry have been consistently around 3% a year for quite a while. Now compare and contrast with a commodity getting scarce (oil anyone?).

Young people are no as dumb as many believe: they increasingly stay away from technical careers with dim prospects and going into law practice or medicine instead.
It looks like you'll earn a better living suing a CEO (or watching his health) than working for him.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.

by Bernard on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 04:43:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some of the legal and medical jobs are getting relocated to India as well. Work that can be done on a computer can be done from there. In the US there is now the phenomenon of medical tourism. It is cheaper to fly people to India for elective surgery than to have it performed in the US. Insurance companies are offering incentive packages with a free tour of the Taj Mahal if you recover.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 05:10:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some maybe, but I don't think a court will allow an attorney to plead from India via a video link; not just yet. And many people, such as the elderly, have to be cared for where they live. Unless, we relocate our seniors...

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 05:26:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are certainly more limits in those fields than there in the "pure tech" fields, but paralegals and medical technologists are feeling the pinch. The only thing that seems to be safe from export are most hands on service jobs. Unfortunately except for a few exceptions like trial lawyers and neurosurgeons, jobs like waiters, gardeners and nurses aides don't pay very well. There will be senior executives of multi-national corporations who can afford a certain number of people to wait on them. What I wonder is what is everybody else going to be doing.

I would not be at all surprised if there were multiple feasibility studies underway on offshoring of nursing homes as a solution to the Medicare crisis.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 05:40:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The relocation of the seniors reminds me of one of my all time favorite movies, the screen adaptation of Evelyn Waugh's wonderfully vicious satire on the American funeral industry, The Loved One. Jonathan Winters plays the owner of Forest Lawn who decides that the future in real estate is in office buildings rather than cemetaries. He comes up with a plan to launch the buried bodies into outer space.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Fri Aug 11th, 2006 at 06:02:19 PM EST
I remember some plan in Japan to relocate senior citizens in foreign countries (was it Peru?), where the cost of living and health care was supposed to be cheaper than in Japan.

Europeans think a hundred miles is a long way. Americans think a hundred years is a long time.
by Bernard on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 11:21:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For countries such as Japan facing a demographic crisis with an ageing population and a low birth rate, there is a real problem. The choice may be between allowing young immigrants into the country to care for the elderly or moving the elderly to where the cheap health care workers are.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 11:44:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
EU explains new population plan to third-world leaders:

"for every two immigrants we take in from your country, you have to take one of our elderly"

by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 11:54:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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