European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

***UK ban on next wave of EU workers?

by Richard Lyon
Wed Aug 16th, 2006 at 09:17:33 AM EST

More controversy on the migration of workers from the new EU member states from The Guardian:
Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers

Plans to deny Romanians and Bulgarians full rights to work in the UK are being considered by John Reid. Both countries join the EU in January and the potential influx of workers is causing divisions in cabinet.

The home secretary, supported by the work and pensions minister, John Hutton, is understood to be considering a temporary ban. But the Foreign Office wants Britain to keep its open-door policy for EU workers.

The ban is opposed by the Europe minister, Geoff Hoon, who believes it might be a breach of undertakings to the countries, due to join the EU less than 15 years after breaking their ties with the Soviet Union. Mr Hutton is understood to feel that Britain is not ready politically for another potential big influx of EU migrant workers - especially since the number from Romania and Bulgaria could be large, owing to their relatively undeveloped economies and 8% unemployment.

A leaked paper from the Home Office minister Joan Ryan warned of "enlargement fatigue" and that the "enough is enough" argument was winning.

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***UK ban on next wave of EU workers? | 36 comments (36 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 1)

I always thought that Britains willingness to allow workers from the new states to work in the UK ironically showed a greater commitment to the European ideal than some of the supposedly more pro-European countries who wouldnt allow the workers in except under stringent circumstances. Interesting how this will play out.

by observer393 on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 01:29:35 AM EST

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 1)

Actually, no more than the Irish, it was an entirely cynical act in that it suited their economy to have immigrant workers come in at the time. This time it may not suit our economies so we probably won't be as open.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 03:28:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 1)

This likely reflects a significant change in economic realities since the last new member states were added.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 11:12:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (4.00 / 2)

No, it reflects a fundamental disfunctionality of the EU. Either worker mobility is allowed, or the unified monetary system will collapse. At some point the EU will need to face up to this fact.

by asdf on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 12:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 1)

Actually I think it reflects both. I certainly don't think it is possible for the EU to become an economically and politically integrated entity while relegating some members to a marginal status. The changing economic realities form the 1990s mean that full economic integration is turning out to be politically much more difficult than the people in power thought it would be. I don't think it is going to get any easier.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 12:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 1)

On the other hand, if you press economic and political integration in the whole of EU without some serious reform in these new EU countries I think one will end up propping up dysfunctional and corrupt regimes in Eastern Europe. The end result might be labour flight and a policy of increasing wasteful subsidies, a la Italy.

by Trond Ove on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 12:39:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 1)

Supposedly the EU required them to meet certain economic and political criteria as a condition of membership. There are questions with the CIA connections as to whether or not they have really complied. The EU is going to have to face the issue of system wide standards and the power to enforce them. They don't seem to be making a great deal of progress at that.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 12:52:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 0)

There is alot of questions with whether they have complied, which is why there has been talk of a one year postponement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_enlargement#Acceding_countries

As you can see the questions about compliance go a bit further than the CIA scandal. (Althought it is understandable that that has been played up in American media.)

"The EU is going to have to face the issue of system wide standards and the power to enforce them. They don't seem to be making a great deal of progress at that."

EU has been busy with setting up "system wide standards" and an enforcement apparatus for a long time, so I dont see what you are getting at.

by Trond Ove on Sun Aug 13th, 2006 at 12:23:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 0)

I was referring mostly to the muscle and the will to enforce them rather than the existence of standards. One example would be the issue of debt limits in the Eurozone countries.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sun Aug 13th, 2006 at 01:00:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 0)

Yes... I agree. Luckily the muscle and will does not exist. And I dont see how it will develop either (at least not in the near future), as the EU is very much a collection of nation states trying to cooperate, not a federal state.

by Trond Ove on Sun Aug 13th, 2006 at 10:11:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why is this hard? (4.00 / 2)

THESE ARE TRANSITIONAL ARRANGEMENTS. THESE ARE TRANSITIONAL ARRANGEMENTS. THESE ARE TRANSITIONAL ARRANGEMENTS. THESE ARE TRANSITIONAL ARRANGEMENTS. THESE ARE TRANSITIONAL ARRANGEMENTS. THESE ARE TRANSITIONAL ARRANGEMENTS.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 01:50:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is this hard? (none / 0)

Simply because something is labeled as a transition does not provide certainty that it is going to be a successful transition, nor does typing in upper case guarantee truth.

I get the impression that you are of the view that any criticism of the European Union constitutes being politically incorrect.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 02:03:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is this hard? (none / 0)

Opening a country's borders to a new wave of immigrants that it can't handle is not the solution -- that is, unless it's my fiancee and I, of course, in which case I say, Laissez-faire, laissez-passer! But, in all seriousness, Britain is, from what I gathered during my entire eight-day visit, struggling already with infrastructure and housing, so is it not reasonable to say, "Let's hold off on another wave for a bit"?

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 02:20:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is this hard? (4.00 / 2)

You and asdf seem to be of the unshakeable impression that transitional arrangements for new member states presage the end of the EU or the Euro or the world or something. They're unfortunate, and somewhat ironic in the face of the purported free-market credentials of a lot of the leaders putting them in place, but they're not the end of the world. They'll go away in a little while. Ten years isn't all that long. Not everything has to happen overnight. In the meantime we'll be pumping money, private and public, into the new member states in order to make them more attractive places to stay. And I never criticise the Union. Ever. Honest.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 02:51:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is this hard? (none / 0)

I don't preport to speak for asdf. I do not think, nor do I think that I have said, I think this represents the end of the EU or the world. However, I do think that it is a significant issue and will have substantive bearing on the future. While I'm not particularly inclined to think it will result in the complete demise of the EU, it may well influence the course of its eventual evolution. Whether it remains primarily a trade confederation or matures into an integrated political entity is still very much an open question. I think that political integration requires that a majority of its citizens has a basis to believe that they have a voice ans a stake in its future.

Personally I think that a strong and integrated EU could be an effective balancing force in the overall geopolitical scene. However, I strongly doubt that there is a valid basis for believing that this issue will just go away if we don't talk about it, other than wishful thinking that is.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 03:07:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is this hard? (none / 0)

It's been 15 years since German reunification started, and things are still not so perfect there. What makes you think that the much larger EU-wide integration difficulties can be solved in a decade?

by asdf on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 04:06:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is this hard? (none / 0)

It's what, 150 years since the US ended slavery and things aren't so perfect there... I don't expect difficulties to be solved in ten years. However, I'd hope that in ten years time we'd have made enough improvements (relatively) to the new member states that not every young person will feel their only option is to emigrate to one of the other EU states.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 05:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is this hard? (none / 0)

Since not every young person in the resent EU 15 accession states has felt that emigration is their only option, you've already achieved success. That just proves that if you set the bar low enough success is guaranteed. You said above that it was all going to go away. Now you've changed your tune.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 05:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is this hard? (none / 0)

You know, when I was writing that comment I contemplated adding a footnote pointing out that "every young person" was intentional hyperbole.

Then I decided it wasn't necessary.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 06:26:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why is this hard? (none / 0)

No, Colman is pointing out that every new member state since the first original 6 has been subject to transitional arrangements which lapse after at most 7 years. So Romanians and Bulgarians will enjoy full free movement by 2015 at the latest.

In addition, the restrictions affect only salaried workers. Students, tourists, self-employed people, can freely move [at least that was the scope of the restrictions allowed in 2004 and I think somethign similar will be in effect this time qround].

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 07:49:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 0)

Yes. Before the last wave joined Ireland had a small number of foreign immigrants. Now we have 400,000. 10% of the population is now a foreign national from a much smaller number 10 or 15 years ago. It's been pretty ok so far, but add in two more states that aren't being allowed in anywhere else? No thanks.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 01:49:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 0)

In the apparently-classic example of Polish plumbers, the workers from the East seem to benefit from coming to Britain, though. Perhaps that's not at all representative of immigration from the East as a whole in Britain, but the BBC said that Polish workers in traditional blue-collar jobs -- electricians, plumbers, etc -- could expect much higher pay, even after adjusting for the cost of living, in Britain than in Poland. But, again, I don't know how representative this is, having never lived in Britain for an extended period, and having never seriously looked over the immigration stats. I suspect there is a great deal of variation.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 01:57:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 0)

The economic niche for Eastern European workers with no knowledge of English has been filled, though.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 07:51:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 0)

I'm not so sure. You could create millions of jobs simply by hiring people to catch all of the fucking pigeons in Trafalgar Square. It could be Britain's version of Mexican orange-pickers, I tell you.

We could even save the pigeons for food. It worked in Chicago. Look it up.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 10:15:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 0)

See, that's why I became an economist. Efficiency is my thing.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 10:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 1)

It seems to me plausible to expect that the employment restrictions placed by western European governments on the workers of the newer member states, are likely to engender political resentment in the citizens of those states. This could supply fuel for various right leaning populist movements such as those which have gained prominence in Poland. This is not a matter that can simply be placed on hold without additional consequences for a "transitional" period.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 02:55:32 PM EST

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 1)

And I *absolutely guarantee you* that failing to put in place employment restrictions in Ireland and the UK *will* engender political resentment in the workers of the existing member states. 100% guarantee. There isn't space for a couple of hundred thousand new people on top of flows from the existing 10. The reasoning is similar, though coloured by other issues, in other countries in the EU. The reasons for the right leaning populist movements would bear analysis. I'm not sure that long signalled restrictions on worker mobility are a major part of it.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 03:00:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 0)

I have no doubt that you are right about that. Those employment realities in both the East and the West may be why the EU is caught between a rock and a hard place. The only thing that I can see that would rescue it from the horns of the delima would be a dramatic economic expansion that creates lots of nice jobs for everybody. I don't think that is in the tea leaves.

I would certainly agree that the right leaning political movements are more complicated than a single issue, but historically immigration and employment has often supplied grist for the populist political cause.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 03:13:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 1)

The unillingness to absorb foreign workers is simply an example of the lack of integration of the EU. "Integrated" means that you mix. "Integration" where the Polish stay in Poland and the Irish stay in Ireland is hardly integration in the normal sense of the word.

In Colorado one frequently hears complaints about rich Texans and Californians coming to screw up ("Californicate") our beautiful state. But since everybody here came since 1859, and practically everybody came since 1970, the complaints are not taken very seriously. "Integration" means that you only notice someone's origin as a matter of casual interest and a conversation point, not as a point of discrimination.

The U.S. has a huge problem with foreign workers (mostly Mexican), but there is no claim of integration between us and Mexico.

by asdf on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 04:12:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 1)

unillingness

Inability.

And there's a big difference between rich and poor immigrants to an area.

No one pretends that the EU is a finished product: we don't even know what the end-point would look like. But we're working on it.

My family - on both sides - have probably lived in roughly the same parts of Ireland for at least hundreds of years. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people on this site who can trace their family association with an area for a long, long, long time. It's not the same as a nation of blow-ins, where only the First Nations have a long folk history of the land. Fuck, I went to a college that was founded more than four hundred years ago: it's a relatively new institution compared to some of the continental ones.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 05:26:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 0)

Reid is actually worried about Romanian gypsies and Bulgarian organised crime, but he won't say so. The concerns of the department of work and pensions are maybe more understandable. Too many people believe that the streets of London are paved with gold, but like I say in a parallel comment the economic niche for Eastern Europeans with no knowledge of English is full. Because of her work, Barbara has some insight about the conditions of Czech and Slovak immigrants who find themselves having to apply for benefits [under the Department of Work and Pensions]. I'm trying to get her to siary her experiences.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 07:56:13 PM EST

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 1)

Every time the EU is expanded the British press creates a moral panic about the hordes about to arrive in the UK. It happened with the Greeks, the Spanish and Portuguese and the central/eastern Europeans last time. Now the panic is on about the next expansion.

Up to now the British government has resisted the xenophobic option. The reality never turned out to be as dire as predicted.

John Reid, since becoming Home Secretary, has made it his rule to give the press everything they called for in the areas of criminal justice and immigration. He is the worst of a series of authoritarian Home Secretaries, who have implemented Blair's never knowingly outflanked to the right policy on Home Office matters.

by Gary J on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 08:12:26 PM EST

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 0)

It's all because they built that bloody chunnel. Blow it up before British civilization is destroyed by the gypsies.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sat Aug 12th, 2006 at 08:34:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Reid pushes for ban on next wave of EU workers (none / 0)

ugh, couldn't agree more about reid...

makes straw positively appealing!

i couldn't stand him either.

whoever is in that job has to be so steeped in evil as to be practically irrecuperable...jack is at least trying...

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Aug 13th, 2006 at 08:15:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

note: copyright infringement concerns... (none / 0)

Richard, I need to make a suggestion, out of concern of copyright infringement issues: If you are going to copy a headline from a paper, it is best to put it into quotes. But preferrably, it is best not to use the headlines of newspapers on the subject line, but instead create your own article title, then put the actual title of the article into your link in your article.

Perhaps I am being overly cautious, but I would hate to see ET get served with some kind of legal papers based on copyright infringement charges. We couldn't afford it and we might have to shur down. So...it would be best if you thought up your own titles.

It is a good article, and I would like to front page this later, so will change the title myself...but maybe you want to make your own one up, rather me do it?

Thanks!

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!

by whataboutbob on Sun Aug 13th, 2006 at 07:29:52 AM EST

Re: note: copyright infringement concerns... (none / 0)

I'm well aware of the problems in interpreting fair use. There aren't any exact rules and everybody has to make their own judgement calls. Being cautious is certainly wise.

by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sun Aug 13th, 2006 at 09:43:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

***UK ban on next wave of EU workers? | 36 comments (36 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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