European Tribune

***Matrix Collision Theory

by Sven Triloqvist
Wed Aug 23rd, 2006 at 05:22:57 AM EST

'Finnish Design' by Alvar Gullichsen. Oil on Canvas.

I promised Melo some more info on what art may be about...

This brief outline theory of the dialogue between experience and understanding has been influenced by many sources, but originally was inspired by Arthur Koestler's book `The Act of Creation'.

I have used this concept many times to provoke thought in seminars, which explains why it is simplistic, as it is intended for a general inquiring audience.

***Back from the front page ~ whataboutbob


First some assumptions:

* The Conscious v unconscious mind
The sentient mind appears to reside entirely in the neural networks of the cerebrum. Consciousness may in fact simply be the result of complexity. Unlike a computer, the various processing networks appear to terminate in many different places at the same time. The cerebrum is wired left to right down through the symmetry of the body. The cerebellum, strangely enough, is wired left to left. It receives mostly the same sensory data as the cerebrum, and has its own processes for sending data back out again. It is particularly concerned with fine motor movements. If you leave the cerebellum to handle the act of running up stairs, it will do it perfectly. Think about it consciously, and you may trip.

The two brains (along with other parts, such as the limbic system, that preceded them in evolution) appear autonomous, though they do influence the other parts. They are like two work colleagues rather than family members.

The important factor for Matrix Collisions is that the conscious mind is largely `after the fact'. That is, it spends a lot of time `justifying' to itself and the outside world what other parts of the brain have already `decided' is the right action in the sensory circumstances.

Imagine the President of the State of Mind. He may, like any President, appear to be in charge. In fact, any leader is only as good as the system he commands makes him look. A president has a very ungranular overview of the system of which he is figurehead. He cannot get into details - there is just too much information. So President Bush (for example), gets a one or two page summary of the USA and its interaction with the world, every morning with his breakfast. It contains information about the economy, the war, the political processes, and other prioritised areas. The summaries are based on the work of thousands of people (sensors) who submit very granular data that is processed and compressed as it goes up through the system. Along the way, possible decisions about the meaning of all this data begin to form into options for action. Some lower-level decisions are already made and executed, based on experience. By the time all this gets to the high level just below the President, all the raw data has been stripped out, (except for anomalous crucial data) and what remains are very limited options for action which are presented to the President. Even these are usually presented in such a way that there is only one choice. As I said, the President is a figurehead. Consciousness is largely a figurehead.

Now on to more mundane assumptions:

* Habituation
The everyday mind expects that everyday happenings will contain their own logic. We rely on this logic to be able to get through our days. If we buy a strawberry icecream, we expect it to taste of strawberry. If we get on a bus that is marked with Helsinki as the destination, we happily assume and expect that Helsinki is where we will end up. And so on.

* Matrix as microcosm
We could call one of these `trains of logic' a matrix. The bus journey is a matrix, with Helsinki as the keyword. The type of bus, where we get on, the look of the driver and the other passengers, where we sit, how long it takes, the weather: all these are part of a particular journey matrix. But the key is to get to Helsinki. We can accept variation in all the other parts of the experience, except the destination. We expect to get to Helsinki.

* Categorization
We don't take as much notice of our surroundings as we think we do. When we get to Helsinki we would be hard-pressed to remember any of the passengers, the colour of the seats, how many bus stops we stopped at, and so on. We fill in our memory with `busness', just as when we walk through a forest we don't register individual trees - we sense `treeness'. We fill in from memory, instead of seeing the trees that are actually surround us on our walk.

* Running on autopilot
Everyone has driven along a motorway daydreaming or thinking about other things than driving, and discovered that the last 5 kilometres of driving cannot be recalled. We were on automatic pilot.

* Novelty
The mind is, however, always ready for novelty - the moment when anomalous data pops up. If we come across a purple tree on our walk through the forest, `treeness' will disappear and all our attention will go to the amazing tree. We will examine it carefully and we will remember it, probably forever. Novelty doesn't have to be amazing to cause a reaction. Watch a cat staring peacefully out of the window and then snap your fingers. The ear closest to the sound will turn to focus on the sound source. The sound is novel in the context, but probably not consciously novel. Wait a few moments and then snap your fingers again. The ear will turn again, but possibly less vigorously. Snap again and the ear may not move at all. The cat's brain has habituated the sound. But wait 10 minutes and then see what happens.

* Feedback oscillation
A room-heating thermostat is in a feedback relationship with the space it monitors. The thermostat is set at a certain temperature. If the thermostat monitors that the current temperature is the same as this setting or above it, it will do nothing. One might say it is habituated. But should the monitored temperature fall below a preset minimum, it will send a signal to the heating system to supply more heat. When the monitored temperature reaches the maximum setting, it will send a signal to the heating system to stop.

If the minimum/maximum settings are too close to each other, and the monitored temperature is rapidly fluctuating (due to external forces such as doors or windows opening) the thermostat will oscillate, sending signals to the heating system to switch on, switch off, switch on in rapid succession. We can say that the thermostat is too sensitive. The logic has been defeated.

OK. That is enough assumptions for the moment.

If I tell a joke, I will use these assumptions and expectations. It has been said that there are only 10 basic joke formats, and that all the billions of jokes on this planet are variations upon these 10 formats.
We could call a joke a matrix. It is a microcosm. It is the President's breakfast summary. "An Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman went into a bar...". We don't expect a lot of detail, the destination sign is enough. We know, however, that we are not going to Helsinki!

The joke would not mean as much to Japanese fisherman, because particular jokes are cultural, they require you to fill in the general situation from experience (Unless of course the Japanese fisherman was an anglophile).

The basic body of the joke is a set-up, with the thermostat operating normally. Doors and windows in the story are often opened and closed to check that the thermostat is working, but the main thrust is to put the audience on autopilot - to make the novelty ahead all the more surprising.

Then comes the punch line. The punch line always comes from another matrix - another logical set. The listening mind, the conscious mind, suddenly finds itself confronted by a decision that is far from all the options expressed in the breakfast summaries. The `barness' into which we had been lulled by the Englishmanness, Irishmanness and the Scotsmanness, is shattered by something that doesn't fit into the logic.

Our minds oscillate between the two logic sets, unable to find the right connection. It is as if someone was alternating waving an opened refrigerator and a hair drier in front of the thermostat. The room has not changed, but the thermostat monitoring area has.
Confronted by this logic oscillation (if it is sufficiently novel), the physiological response is breathing oscillation - laughter. Two matrices have collided and created a boundary between chaos and control. A joke is a nice place to be.

The more important conjecture though is this: we are confronted by these same kinds of oscillations or matrix collisions when confronted by all `evocative' situations. By evocative, I mean art. To cast your eye over a painting or a sculpture, to stand back and take it in as a whole, to contemplate it, is to become involved in matrix collisions. They are far more complicated than a joke. They are as simultaneously complex as consciousness. They wake us up from autopilot, up away from the boredom of linear logic and up to the surface that intersects with chaos.

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Good article Sven and perfect painting to demonstrate the theory or vice versa.  When I saw the painting, I thought, huh, what a chaotic scene. After reading the assumptions and explanation, it takes on a different meaning as I look at it in terms of matrix collisions/experience vs. understanding.

How could you apply the theory to all art forms or even all paintings, as I presume you intend?  What about the serenity of an ordinary portrait or something that is much less evocative?  If something doesn't "wake us up", does that mean it's not good art?  Or does it mean we just didn't enjoy/become stimulated by/ a particular piece?

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sun Aug 20th, 2006 at 12:00:49 AM EST
The theory applies to all visual art because it concerns the properties of the mind and the way it processes visual information. There are some 25 or more visual projection systems in the human brain, dealing with different aspects of what we see. And those picture-processors are only the beginning of what happens in the mind.

Vision is a language and, like any language, what you know already determines how you process it. All seeing depends on what you have seen before - it is cumulative.

The invention of Photography in the early 19th C took over one function of art - representation. A portrait today has less power than one in 1800. After photography became widespread in the late 19th C, Western artists were inspired to look at the things that photography could not do - which led to the study of light and colour (Impressionism) then the study of space (Cubism) and so on through an explosion of different ways of seeing. The Fauvists, the Dadists, the Surrealists, the Vortecists etc etc - all going deeper into how we see as much as what we see. And testing the component parts of the entire visual processing system.

Stand in front of a Mark Rothko painting and you are getting the powerful focused stimulation of just two visual processing areas - figure/ground and colour.  By stripping the image of all other stimulation, Rothko is inviting you to ponder what seeing is about.

Abstract painting really does mean what it says - it is abstracted from the total picture, just as listening to the lead violins of a symphony would be an abstraction.

Post-Pollock and action painting, artists have concentrated ever more on deconstucting the interactive relationship between the work and the onlooker. Painting (and all visual art), has been freed from the frame to take in how it is made, displayed, sold, and reproduced. Art has become conceptual (Damien Hirst) in the sense that what happens inside the head is as important as the physical object or rather that the connection between them is laid bare.

All artists (and poets eg) exploit our innate, uncontrolled and continual search for meaning. And meaning is always learnt and thus cumulative.

Evocation for one person will never be the same for all people. If the portrait you mention is of your grandfather, you will have a different relationship to it than me. You will 'wake up'. I will probably be interested in it as a historical document only, unless the painter had special skills.

Look at Roberrt Mapplethorpe's portrait photos, for instance. They are all waking up pictures.

One thing I have not cogitated so broadly is music and how we find the meaning in sound. I don't know enough about the physiological processes. The interesting thing about music though is that it doesn't exist in 'real life', in the same way that you can compare a portrait (of a living person) with the real person, or look at sunflowers in the garden and then look at van Goghs 'Sunflowers'. All music is a construct - it doesn't refer to anything that exists in Nature, it refers only to our musical experience. It is pure evocation.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Aug 20th, 2006 at 04:09:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This really is interesting and conceptually something new to me. I do part-time professional photography, mostly portraits, and started using Photoshop a couple of years ago to enhance my work.  Creative digital compositing as an artistic outlet is also appealing as well but I haven't started as yet.  Sounds like some advance study in this area would be greatly beneficial.

I have a small collection of portrait paintings and have admired Maplethorp's work for some time, but never was able to understand why I enjoy these works  so much.  This starts to explain it.  The next step is being able to produce photographic portraits with at least a fraction of the effect that I see in Maplethorp's.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sun Aug 20th, 2006 at 10:27:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Self-Portrait 1985 (c) Robert Mapplethorpe Foundation

Analysing this photo, I'd have to go with 4 main points

  • It looks like studio with a black colorama background. The black shirt virtually becomes background and thus you are very conscious of the shape that the head and neck makes. The shirt does not sit symmetrically. It would probably mean a whole series of shots taken in this same situation to get or find the right effect. It is intended as a formal portrait, but breaks the conventions.

  • It's about an instant - with the motion blur accentuating the fact, and the lines of his hair swept back at the side and top of his head to further add to an impression of speed.

  • He is not looking at the camera. He appears intent on something outside the frame which is always a good technique for creating mystery and have the onlooker fill in the missing details. The photo and the sitter appear casual, but I do not think the effect is casual. There's a dynamic tension of expectations.

  • The Janus effect is a deliberate reference. The main face image is traditionally handsome, the trace image is uglier, perhaps even a tad evil. The trace face is totally intent on what is outside the frame and even leaning toward it. Mapplethorpe is always expert with odd framing to disarm the viewer and in elevating the division of space to wake you up - in this case, by putting the visual weight off center.

I am not sure how he worked, but he sure was a master craftsman in black and white. My guess is that this portrait was the result of a lighting experiment series with an open shutter and a manually triggered softlight.

It doesn't matter whether he saw the picture and built it, or 'found' the picture later. There are two types of sculpturing - using an armature to build up from until you reach the outer surfaces, or to take a large block of material and cut away what is not needed top reveal the shape.

Both methods produce slightly different results (apart from the tools and methods). It is interesting that American car designers use 'clays' to design their mock up cars - building up the material on an armature. Italian designers use wood, shaving and sanding it down till they get the shape.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Aug 20th, 2006 at 11:30:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One more question.  This matrix collision theory appears to me to be rooted in gestalt psychology.  Is this true?

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 11:49:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was a major influence, if only because it rejects, as I do, any notion of there being a homonculus. But this is more gestalt biology.

Once you get rid of the homonculus (the little man controlling everything - to which one always has to ask of its proponents "So who controls the little man?"), much of what the brain does becomes easier to understand.

Neural networks are self-organizing, as in all natural cellular structures. The structure, as you point out, is not according to any template, but an emergent property of neighbouring cells (and neurons) changing as a result of chemical gradients exchanged between them and present in the environment.

Environmental endorphins finding their way into neuronal receptors, for example, are a direct cause of hardwiring between just firing neighbouring neurons. And make it more likely that you will have another alcoholic drink in the future, in response to the same stimulii.

There is of course a genetic component, in that individuals may naturally produce more or less than the average of the hormones and semi-hormones that effect these changes - amd whose effect and presence we label as 'emotions'. (I'll bury that little bombshell in the paragraph to esnure that opponents have at least read thus far) The adrenal medulla produces Epinephrine (adrenalin) in reponse to what might be broadly called stress threats. The amount released into the bloodstream will vary individually and by threat. Epinephrine acts at the cellular level through receptors in, for instance, the liver and muscles (including the heart). But the physiological effect is macrocosmic - causing eg the heart to pump faster and with greater stroke volume.

The Matrix Collision Theory describes macro effects, but the source of such effects is micro - the way neural networks respond to, and process sensory input, and the way they are metaprogrammed by biochemicals that flood the brain environment in response to collated sensory input.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 01:13:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks so much for the time you took to explain. I can't claim to understand everything in depth, but I will never look at a painting or photograph the same way again.  Amazing!

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 08:35:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i am touched and honoured by your response, as i am once again with your capacity to eff the ineffable. as per music, i disagree about the lack of references.

why and in what sense does landscape influence language?

why is the dialect in one italian village perceptibly different from the one 3 miles down rhe valley?

if it's not the different minerals in the soil conjuring up different cellular chemical composites in the people, if it's not the way the wind plays different notes coming through the hills at different angles, then what is it?

the way the light bounces differently off the land?

or is it a vibration of LOCALITY that finds expression through culture, whatever sense it's flooding, be it visual with traditional dress, art and banners (early logo's) for pride in origin and surroundings.

there's a point where synesthesia makes a lot of sense in a way, because art merges and dissolves boundaries, leaving them refixable elsewhere, lie musical tastes evolving, nomadically pitching camp then picking up and moving on.

bird use rhythm in divers ways to express their messages, the urge to imitate is strong and playful in humans, indeed we value impersonation highly in comedy.

impersonate...we are an impersonation of our input.

the same attention we now pay to complex musical movements we once paid to natural sounds, just as the attention we now pay to tv, we once paid to the stars...

if i seek a certain tone on the guitar, it expresses a yearning to give back some of the emotions sound has coaxed out of me, be it birdsong, thunder, the beatles or elgar!

i synthesise and concentrate, refine and produce accumulated emotions, recycling them back into the soundtrack of my life, and seeing how i'm a conduit for entities whose shape is songs, who then go into other peoples' emotional RAM for a while, to be stored to disc or deleted later.

i cannot predict much of what i create, indeed it is the matrix collision within the art of improvisation that is the high point of musicality.

the challenge to plot an elegant melodic trajectory through the modal and rhythmic 'furniture' in the piece yields the same grippingly, gigglingly yet seriously intense pleasure i once reserved for navigating my parents living room without touching the ground,

the best improvisors almost never declare their tonal centres....preferring to infer. they indicate them by dancing around them, and to refer to one's plot points too obviously and/or frequently betrays one's neophyte status!

becoming too abstruse is a fool's game, or as you say so well, narration ends.

this was as illuminatingly provocative as i dared hope, sven.

keep on expliccing the inexplicable, you have a wonderful gift, here, imo, and your contributions, as usual, really shed light.

kudos!


Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Aug 20th, 2006 at 11:24:25 AM EST
You got the answer yourself. The reason for the linguistic differences in the same valley is exactly the dancing you describe below.

For fellow villagers, the dance is about belonging. It's an indirect way of saying 'I'm with you - we are moving together'. For others you cannot say too proudly that I am from this or that village - it might appear rude. But you can dance around the fact.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Aug 20th, 2006 at 11:38:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
'The impersonation of our input' is a good insight

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Aug 20th, 2006 at 11:39:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i love how your brain works!

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 08:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Much oscillatory breathing!  :)
by Gaianne on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 07:04:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great post, sven.  Very interesting reading.  And a great comment from melo.

Vision is a language and, like any language, what you know already determines how you process it. All seeing depends on what you have seen before - it is cumulative.

And the same with sound, perhaps.  It took many a long while for notes to be related in scales etc.. compared to the world-round use of rhythm (walking, woodpeckers, tree branches, thunder, etc..)  Then the voice rises and falls as we speak (chinese tones) and then some bright greek (or someone before?) works out the vibrations of chords and calls the halved vibration the octave, works out degrees, there's consonance and dissonance, and then we have the scales (tempered) and then we have the piano with its "not quite in tune" intervals which can be used to play all the scales (slightly off the main point: my experience is that electric guitars ring best in E, A, D, B and have troubles with, in particular C (tuning that G string in the middle--ploink sproink--is a  beggar--for the G to be in tune, the E goes slightly out)...and the opposite with acoustics, which play best in G,C,D,F and don't like A major or E major..that's my experience...)

So the "western" ear, used to scales, builds a huge (and wonderful, thank you Herr Bach)...er...edifice?  Maybe they build ever large soundscapes, all in the tonal mood, Debussy pushing the edges (adding far eastern influences but still using tonal instruments)... and yet my ear, brought up in the west, has great difficulty hearing, let alone appreciating, the microtone elements that middle-eastern and indian music use as their building materials--indian rags don't do harmonic progressions...hence, for the western ear, the drone of the sitar...someone wrote (in a book I read about indian music) that the western ear has to accept that tonal progression is not a concept in indian rags.  Once one accepts that, one is open to hear what is going on instead, and its the microtones, the holding patterns, the rhythms (very complex)...

And then we have Tom Waits, who will clank and wheeze and groan, but then he will sing a simple love song, croaking away...and the words and intention make all the difference, perhaps similar to the Mapplethorpe picture, a portrait of someone's head, we've all taken one, but the cliche of a portrait is taken out, something else added.

So, drumroll, music maestro, please:

Sven:
The interesting thing about music though is that it doesn't exist in 'real life', in the same way that you can compare a portrait (of a living person) with the real person, or look at sunflowers in the garden and then look at van Goghs 'Sunflowers'.

melo:
the same attention we now pay to complex musical movements we once paid to natural sounds, just as the attention we now pay to tv, we once paid to the stars...

Western classical music is far removed from (what can I call them?) naturally occuring sounds, but it is built on them, I think.  Certainly wind can play notes in hollows etc...and if there are many hollows, harmonies are produced which, when analysed, turn out to be measures of vibration juxtaposed in ways we find intriguing.  

Anyway, a great discussion.  Thanks!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sun Aug 20th, 2006 at 02:47:39 PM EST
Tom Waits!!! </fangirl squeal>

But, ahem, his genius lies in the deceptive simplicity of his music and his talent for setting up subconcious expectations and then defying them (in keeping with Sven's theme).

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 20th, 2006 at 03:13:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Izzy, is that you?

I hear ya!




Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 04:58:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I had always imagined that people hit things, blew things and scraped things in idle stone age curiosity, and discovered they could control sound.

But I think your explanation is equally valid. Drums - which I would guess were the first music producers to be discovered - could easily be used to mimic thunder, beating hooves, heartbeat, waves etc. In which case Melo's 'impersonation of input' theory would apply.

Clearly sound had a prominent role in survival then, because it was a predictor of what might happen in the environment. If the iPd had been around then, its users would have been naturally deselected genetically, because they would have never heard what killed 'em ;-)

But certainly what we regard as normal is in fact only personal habituation. I like Marmite - millions don't. Christian babies grow up to believe in Christianity (or used to). Indian kids eat curries etc.

Our failure to understand that what is normal and right for us, is not so for much of the rest of the world. The more we respect that the better this planet will become IMHO.

I spend quite a lot of time listening to World Music of all kinds to see if I can appreciate it in the same way the people who think it is normal, appreciate it. I find quite a lot of kids do the same these days.

The other night I was in an argument about Rock music - particularly guitar based. It's 50 years old, it's not going to last a 1000 years as my opponent thought. It is already creaking and worn out. But, as I pointed out to him, its the only music he knows - its normal for him. But for non-commercial young musicians today there is a sense of exploration that will lead far away from rock.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Aug 20th, 2006 at 03:49:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But for non-commercial young musicians today there is a sense of exploration that will lead far away from rock.

I think the key move is away from the 1-2-3-4 beat.  Not that there's anything wrong with thump thump thump thump, or tick tick thump tick, tick tick thump tick, or bish bash bish bosh.

Ta ki ta ta ka di mi (7)

ta ki ta ki ta (5)

What I found great about indian counting is that the sounds used for the beats are designed so you can say them quickly, unlike one-two or three-four

takita takadimi

taki takita

(I'm rambling...)

The electric guitar (I am a player) is a great instrument, but the sproing sproing ain't really its forte.  However, played as an adjunct instrument, especially small note groups mixed with solo elements...

(I'm rambling even more...)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 04:50:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While Rock may degenerate, I think the electric guitar will survive.

It's a versatile instrument.

You might like to check out: http://www.flaxwood.com/

A new Finnish client of ours making a whole new type of guitar...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 06:30:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wot, no UK dealer (I'm assuming your client is flaxwood)?  I can recommend a place, guitar, amp, & keyboard shop, if they're interested in doing business over here.

(If they want to send me a demo copy etc...)

;)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 07:46:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for that - the client was happy to hear about it.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 11:53:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Lords of Karma will be watching

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 12:22:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I personally like electric violins and electronic (MIDI) bagpipes.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 07:54:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Electric violins are cool.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 08:27:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I probably listen to Andreas Wollenweider more than anyone else - so put me down as an electrifed harp lover

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 10:24:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, Vollenweider and his "amiable harp" as a music critic in El Pais once put it.

Personally, I listen mostly to instrumental music, and when it comes to the evocative aspect of music I just can't get the classical "symphonic poems" or what you could call "narrative" or "descriptive" music. It's mostly abstract instrumental music that appeals to me, and its effect is certainly not "evocative".

I find Vollenweider's "Book of Roses" successfully "evocative" however.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 10:28:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So I'd like to know what this abstract instrumental music does do to you.

You may be taking 'evocation' too literally in the meaning of reminding/calling to mind, whereas I see it more as putting yourself/or being put, in a mental space that is experience rather than information or a sensory awakening rather than an intellectual awakening.

And then we get into a semantic discussion of what is information ;-)

Music is a repeatable experience with little 'extinction by habituation'. We never get tired of plugging in to 220 v AC - we need the power. We plug into music the same way. It is not information and not story narrative (even though some songs tell a story)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 11:24:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose I was misremembering your use of "evocation" in connection with music: you wer opposing evocation to representation.
One thing I have not cogitated so broadly is music and how we find the meaning in sound. I don't know enough about the physiological processes. The interesting thing about music though is that it doesn't exist in 'real life', in the same way that you can compare a portrait (of a living person) with the real person, or look at sunflowers in the garden and then look at van Goghs 'Sunflowers'. All music is a construct - it doesn't refer to anything that exists in Nature, it refers only to our musical experience. It is pure evocation.
Anyway, at best instrumental music gives me shivers.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 01:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see much music as being representational or figurative, in the painting sense. Very little, in fact. There's nothing to represent except feelings - and that is evocation.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 03:48:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I once saw Debussy's La Mer performed live and I could see the glistening drops catching the sun as the wind sheared them off the waves.

I'm also worryingly good at telling people what was happening in their environment when they were working on a track.

Music is often more figurative than people realise.

But it's mostly done by association with onomatopeia and metaphor. Sampling has killed it, because there's no need to suggest something indirectly with orchestral colours when you can use the sound directly.

This is a shame. It's an impressive skill, and an underappreciated one.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 08:21:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
shivers...of delight?

does vocal music have the opposite effect?

make you want to strip?

<snark>

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 09:52:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i hate plugging in to 220v...it reminds me of my enthrallment into an energy vassal-state.

they are the enemy, and they are milking us.

squeeze power, baby

now i know how it feels to be a tit...

udderly fuelish

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 09:51:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a good idea

not to get me started about fun MIDI stuff.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 08:41:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yeah that's the underside of the midifun to be had...

all samples all the time...

it's impossible to hit a snare the same way twice, now there are hours of identical snare hits driving music...into the ground

what a rush to play that light thingy though, huh

i think samples can be quirkily funny, but they are the victory of the machine over the ghost, if you will

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 09:46:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
music has never been deader.  

I am ready to give up electrified music completely.  

Of course, if you want to make a SKETCH of music, they are very useful, useful as toys, and useful for experimentation.  But if you want to move from an image of music to music itself, you have to let go of them.  

by Gaianne on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 07:02:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In defence of synthesizers:

The Who - Won't Get Fooled Again
Donna Summer - I feel Love
The Prodigy - Firestarter
Underworld - Dark & Long

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 07:36:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pete is a good friend of mine from the old days, and I was in his studio at home in Twickenham when he unpacked his ARP. A few weeks later he played me a mind-bending demo of what would later become Baba O'Reilly.

At that point it was instrumental only, quite long (around 13 minutes) and ambient, owing much to Terry Reilly's 'In C', with kind of religious overtones that might seem trite now, but at the time were quite tactile. The ending was orgasmic with Pete's drumming on the demo.

The released track (if I recall correctly) is an edited version of the ARP track, with the rest of the band playing/singing on top.

Before the ARP he used the more primitive VCS3.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 11:40:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are a lucky sven, aincha just?

That whole album is great, including "My Wife"--excellent horns, really snarly and farty and parpy.

PRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!  BEE BOO! "She's comin'!" PRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!  BEE BOO! "She's comin'!"

I'd forgotten Baba O'Reilly.  Add that to the list.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 12:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
do you play gaianne?

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 10:37:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
melodies.  Very convenient and useful, but that's just for me.  

I play drum and cowbell.  

Sing.  

The problem with electronic instruments is that they don't create music, they create an image of music, which is not the same thing.  

I don't object to images; I object to the substitution of one for the other.  

by Gaianne on Wed Aug 23rd, 2006 at 01:34:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
do you do this for pleasure, or work?

sounds a bit like a musicologist's fascination.

as for images, i tend to agree with you.

the production ethic of putting mididrums on everything so it 'jumps out of the speakers' just like the hits, is not one i feel in harmony with.

it's true that the samples are the best instruments played by the best drummers in perrfect acoustic spaces with million dollar mikes.....

but....

it all shows to go you that human touch is the most divinely complex of matters...

and too much of anything is redundant, especially repetition.

do you like specific forms of music more than others?

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 23rd, 2006 at 06:22:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
:D  

I know I have been a bit elusive, but musicologist I am not!  I enjoy chatting about theory, but I cannot take it seriously, which musicologists unfortunately do.  

I have played on recordings, and for that we did what everyone now does--snipped a couple of measures (of cowbell) and reproduced it electronically.  What made that interesting was the challenge of it all being backward:  The cowbell is supposed to define the rhythm, but actually all the tracks, including drum, had already been laid down, so I had to follow the drum while creating the impression I was leading it.  

More interesting is playing at festivals, which is playing live.  It's a group activity, and it goes for hours.  The music evolves out of what the participants do.  In that context, the cowbell takes what the drums are doing, sharpens it up by defining where the points are (where one can play) and (one hopes) highlights it with a pattern that simultaneously or alternately supports and contrasts, and then feeds that back as the defining structure. This keeps the drums from getting muddy, which is their natural tendancy.  

I play drum when there are fewer people (festivals can be large) and for myself.

I use keyboard for composition, not performance.  It is very useful for creating melodies.  A good, but unknown melody is almost impossible to sing.  So I create it on the keyboard first, and then learn to sing it.  After singing it a while, I get an idea if it is any good, and go back to the keyboard to fix musical problems.  And then learn the new version.  After a few cycles of this I will have something that will live in my head WITHOUT my feeling I am trapped in an advertising jingle--that's the acid test--and it will be done.  Or not.  Sometimes I become aware of other songs that the melody is similar to, and that is not a good thing, because it is always bad for one melody to be too much like another, and because if a new melody carries a musical reference, it should be a good one.  So then I get to analyze both to see what is similar about them, after which I have to decide what to do about it.  And then relearn the thing all over again . . . --but that is usually about it.  

I have mostly lost interest in all commercial music.  I encounter it constantly--how can one not?--but usually find it instantly boring.  I have many thoughts about this, but as a fan of technical perfection--which you really don't get much of live!--I cannot blame it on the advent of electronic tools per se.  Mostly I suspect concerns of marketing have long since over-ridden musical purpose.  

For listening, I remain a fan of medieval music, and am often fascinated by things from other musical cultures.  One of the first real melodies I ever did was inspired by an Indian thumree from the Mogul period--although my piece was vastly, vastly simpler, as well as Westernized.  

You are right about human touch.  There is a spiritual aspect that will not shine through without some technical perfection, but is completely separate from it, and which matters very much.  

by Gaianne on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 03:49:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The best music hasn't been played yet...

(I've done pieces with my trusty snare samples, all twenty of them--oops, I deleted one a week ago by accident, so now I have nineteen...

  1. do you actually hit, stroke, blow into, scrape, pluck, strum, etc. your instrument and directly produce noise?  This creates interesting effects but they are hard to hear in our VERY NOISY modern world  (I ate cars!);

  2. do you hit, blow into, etc.. your instrument and then mechanically (digitally?) organise that sound (effects pedals; volume controls etc..)?  This is "sort of" live and most bands play this way.  Everything gets LOUDER and we all get deafer;

  3. do you twiddle knobs, push keys, and wiggle mouses etc... to create your noises?  This leads to hitherto unheard sounds and A LOT of bedroom/spare room/ study/ lounge/ personal studio noodling.

I don't know what that's all relevant to, mind you.

Point XCU: Places with less acoustic pollution (Finland, for example?) will produce more interesting music of types 1 and 3

POINT GHR: Places overwhelmed by acoustic pollution (e.g. Landan tahn) are drowning in 2 and 3 (3 in this case is done with headphones)

POINT TFO: I'm going mad.

My latest (cough) oooovra incorporates (-ish, just for the idea):



(The last one is me.)

ET Album ahoy!  Title: Matrix Collision Theory.  Sven setting control for the heart of the Matrix!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 08:18:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm with you on all this. I've experimented professionally with all kinds of sound explorations - including, as I have talked about before, playing long sound effects tracks into the headphones of improvising jazz musicians, and using pictures instead of sheet music to inspire keyboard players.

Nowadays I mostly work with Acid samples in Soundtrack, combined with live overdubs. These pieces are mainly for me and my friends - I just enjoy creating them. Also, as a film-maker, I find it faster and easier to do my own demo music tracks as I'm editing, rather than wait till the composer comes up with something. Music and non-100% sound has such a big influence on the feel of a sequence, that I find it hard to edit without them.

It would be interesting to exchange music! You'll find my encrypted email in my User Settings info.

Set the controls!

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 11:52:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll send youze an e-mail.

(btw, although I have a computer (MAC 8600 250, cost me £2000 a decade or more ago), my latest music is 90% recorded through one £120 mic.  I stand in front of it and go shake, rattle, toink, bonk, grunt, strum, pluck, ting, takita takadimi twang ah!  Oooh!  Oooh! da din din da /da din din da /da TIN TIN ta /ta DIN DIN da /takadimi boing...)

(the bass, which has seven--I counted--working notes, is straight through the mixer no amp)...

(That's enough o' that now!)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 12:12:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Message sent.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 12:19:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
received

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 12:55:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thanks for your rich contribution...
v. interesting points about the guitar and the adadptability of different keys, and the relativity of transposition.  

instruments CHARACTERISE music, but they only indirectly hold its changing essence.

i do think the steinway grand is more important a rechnological achievement than the great pyramid or the moon landing, however, and the power of percussion to fire the blood, or strings to simultaneously heal and wound, or voice to vocalise the non-verbal, or as i prefer, para-verbal, is a given.

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Aug 21st, 2006 at 08:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(psssst.  Off topic.  melo.  How're you doing?  Hope things are well in your piece of paradise.  Are you doing any music?)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 12:25:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
quite well, considering how much time i'm burning up here with you maroons!

i have two songs being recorded here in italy, one by a top ten chart-ist, this summer, i play weekly guitar/vocal doing all my material at a local restaurant, and the newest incarnation of my original rock/blues band is shaping up surprisingly well, after 5 rehearsals.

i've been invited to play piano at a local hotel, (where i massaged kevin spacey twice last week), and i'm getting to know more friendly, talented musos all the time, since i decided to stop focussing on creating the perfect demo, and go play for real people again...

mind you the demo got me the spot on the hitster's album, so i must have done something right.

took me 2 years to suss out my mac and digital performer, peak etc. i was playing my own bass, drums, hammond, piano, harmonica, percussion and vocals, and teaching myself production and engineering at the same time.

i get bored with editing, it's more fun to try and play it better putting the editing time into practice.

sure ended up with some messy productions along the line.

acoustic music is calling stronger these days, wih a violinist coming over for the first time this week, and a percussionist staying for over a month now.

eventually i'd like to combine the two, acoustic and electric....folk-rock-ethnic, with always a twist of blues

what are you up to, with all that fancy gear, and that huge bass range?

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Aug 22nd, 2006 at 10:57:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
wanna do ze swop of ze music?

(Mia amorosa is from Ivrea, alla bocca della valle D'Aosta...Ivrea: viva una volta; adesso adormentato.  Yo non scrivere beni l'italianoh.  Il mio indirizzo "i" mail--ho ho ho--e sotto il mio nome...

Vai melo! che ti vada sempre bene!  E che vada del tutto bene per tutti che...urgh, mio italiano fa schifun--!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Aug 23rd, 2006 at 04:07:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
cheers, i sent you an mp3 of my latest song, 'get a clue'

bog standard protest, sketchy production...

watch for an email from 'dropload'

tutto a posto, grazie!

non conosco quella zona di ivrea.

se vuoi mandare della musica, fai pure con dropload. e conveniente

se stai qui vicino, vieni trovarmi

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 23rd, 2006 at 06:27:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, i poteri magici dell'internet...  Mio computer e' vecchio, dall'ente, e praticamente priva di "speakers".  Uso, in oltre, un collegamento "dial up": ore ore per poco poco.  Abito a Brighton--son' inglese, (anche te, no?), pero' ci scriviamo in italiano per dare lezioni in lingua a quelli fica nasi che stanno legendo questo messagio--he he he--percio' la prossima volta che vengo (veniamo) in italia (probabilmente a natale) sarei lieto--mi farebbe piacere venirti trovare...dove siete?  

(mia musica non e' accesibile via internet (perche' sono mio computer etc. etc.).  Se mi mandi un indirizzo via e-mail te lo mandero' un CD.)

Ivrea, provincia di Torino.  Dove si lanciano aranci in testa (per carnevale):



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Aug 23rd, 2006 at 07:51:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
did you get the mp3?

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 23rd, 2006 at 11:50:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll find out this evening (it's my home e-mail address.)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Aug 23rd, 2006 at 11:53:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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