European Tribune

The Death of Science?

by Alexander G Rubio
Sun Aug 27th, 2006 at 04:13:17 PM EST


This has been making the rounds on the net. I first came across it on the blog of one "Jon Swift", whose commenters seem to have a knowledge of literature, and a radar for satire, which leaves something to be desired.

According to Mark Noonan at the blog Blogs for Bush, which either has a very hard sell-by-date, or knows something we don't, science is dead. Well, to hear Noonan tell it, it's actually been pushing up daisies since before 1850. It seems Darwin did it in (bludgeoned it to death with the jawbone of an ape perhaps?).

[...]science is dead. We have reached the end of the Age of Science - what will come after, I don't know, but I don't think that we'll ever again have a time when Science is enshrined as some sort of god-like arbiter of right and wrong.

And good riddance to bad indoor plumbing! He then goes on to diagnose who the culprit was. And it wasn't Colonel Mustard in the pantry with a candle-stick.


A lot of different factors - but the main thing was that science could only thrive as it did from about 1650 until 1850 when everyone agreed on the rules. The prime rule of science was truth - everyone involved in science had to tell the truth to the best of their ability, and always be willing to correct one's views when new evidence called in to question previously held beliefs. What killed science was when its strongest advocates stopped telling the truth.

It was, after all, science and its enthusiasts which fell for the Piltdown Man, Haekel's embryos, eugenics, Population Bomb, ALAR, etc, etc, etc. So many bogus theories, dressed up as science, and greeted by the believers in science as the be-all and end-all of existence. After a while, it was bound to errode the foundations of science - and now it has. Science is now so intertwined with myth and political gamesmanship that whatever judgements are pronounced under the cover of science are immediately suspect - everyone who hears such things wonders when some future science will completely refute what is held as rock-solid science today.

A-ha, so because some scientists try to pull a fast one, and not every scientist's hypothesis or theory pans out, science is doomed. OK. I think someone is getting their science mixed up with their religion on a very basic level.

It is the sad reality that each scientist has to face that even if he, or she, comes up with a major break-through, like Newton, there will probably, sooner or later, come along an Einstein and, if not directly disprove your work, at least tweak it. Science has never been about finding The Truth, with a big T. It is the search for facts, and the testable theories that best explain those facts.

And this was the case long before 1850 and the Piltdown Man came along. Anyone remember Phlogiston?

Back in the 17th century one of the theories to explain the process of combustion was that all things combustible contained the ellusive substance phlogiston, which was what was released when something burned. Now, this theory of course turned out to score a big fat doughnut-hole in the annals of science. But it hardly took science itself with it to the grave.

No, if science really were to die out, and a new Dark Age descend on us, it would not be the work of scientists, not even the bad, or even dishonest ones. It would be because political leaders followed the cue of people like Noonan, something which is sadly not as silly as it once sounded.

This is also one of the main reasons why the secular Europe on the whole rejected the Bush Administration's contention that the Iraq adventure was part of Huntington's "clash of civilisations", with the US holding the line for Western civilisation against the forces of religious fanaticism. From the point of view of Europeans it looked suspiciously like two parties, fuelled by twin Middle-Eastern religious creeds, going at it in the name of their Truth, with a big T, and none of them fighting for Western values, liberal democracy, Darwin, or science.

               
                                (Click to go to YouTube video)



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These people consider themselves educated. Oh boy.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Aug 27th, 2006 at 04:30:47 PM EST
Actually it's worse than that. These people know that they're lying. But power and money trumps the truth, the future and everything else.

Marketing Machiavellians: the end justifies the bullshit.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Aug 27th, 2006 at 04:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I was considering watching "The Shining" again tonight. But I'm scared enough as is...

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Alexander G Rubio (alexander.rubio@gmail.com) on Sun Aug 27th, 2006 at 04:46:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At best, their understanding of science is "collection of knowledge about this and that" - the simplest level  of science understanding. But there is an excuse - education at schools does not go any further.

Besides, there is a certain difference between human psychology and scientific method. Human psychology is based on previous experience - your trustworthiness is determined not by your logic, but how successful you have been with this or that sort of thing. But an essential part of science is dealing with novelty, even active looking for it. There isn't necessarily a contradiction between these two aspects. But it is a source of confusion for public perception - science is not to be understood only by counting how often theories work.

by das monde on Sun Aug 27th, 2006 at 07:54:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot of different factors - but the main thing was that science could only thrive as it did from about 1650 until 1850
[...]
It was, after all, science and its enthusiasts which fell for the Piltdown Man, Haekel's embryos, eugenics, Population Bomb, ALAR, etc, etc, etc. So many bogus theories, dressed up as science, and greeted by the believers in science as the be-all and end-all of existence.

It is the sad reality that each scientist has to face that even if he, or she, comes up with a major break-through, like Newton

The scientists of the 1650-1850 period believed in all sorts of stuff that we know not to be true, and wouldn't even regard as remotely scientific, but they did. Newton himself is a prime example.  

A few years ago lots of people were joking about how the right seemed to have embraced the worst excesses of postmodernist theory (just as they were fading away among left wing humanities and social science scholars who were learning how to treat theory as one analytical tool among others, rather than as some philosopher's stone). This is a case in point. Noonan may not be using the jargon, but what he is saying is that scientific truth is presented as simply one narrative among others and like all narratives it is getting itself deconstructed by analyzing the ideology and social framework that surrounds its production.  

by MarekNYC on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 01:44:35 AM EST
Uh...well, the End of Science crowd can say what it likes, but, personally, I'll stick to listening to scientists, especially when there's a soon-to-be-Category-2 hurricane headed for me.  (If that's the work of God, Mr. Blogs for Bush, and if you've got his ear, then tell him he's an asshole.  In the meantime, I'll stick to my belief in meteorology.)

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:02:38 AM EST
Sounds more like the death of science education (at least in the US).

People can now leave school with no understanding of the scientific method. They think that since religious faith provides "the truth" so must science. Their world view leaves no place for doubt or correction.

Unfortunately for US competitiveness, the rest of the world doesn't believe this nonsense and is pulling ahead in scientific research.


Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 10:54:22 AM EST
of the fifties and sixties.  Not the same as the one on the wall of chemistry and physics classes today.  New valences, new elemnts etc.  The "immutable" laws of nature seem to be pretty "mutably" changeable in the light of new knowledge.

Elemental,  my dear Watson!

alohapolitics.com

by Keone Michaels on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 12:12:07 PM EST
Indeed. And look at pictures of the Moon from back then, and now. A whole new hemisphere has appeared, with a zillion craters! Where did they all come from, so suddenly? Faced with this question, science simply has nothing to say.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 02:30:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So the fact that science discovers new things (sort of its raison d'être) undermines its credibility? Am I understanding you correctly?

Please tell me I'm not...

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Alexander G Rubio (alexander.rubio@gmail.com) on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 08:24:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To the exact same extent that seeing a new snarky comment in a thread undermines the credibility of your eyes.

(As distinct from its undermining credibility of the commenter, which is perhaps the greater risk...)

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 01:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ever heard of Dogberry in Billy S' "Much Ado About Nothing"? I think the two of you would have a very rewarding conversation ;)

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Alexander G Rubio (alexander.rubio@gmail.com) on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 04:41:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pacific Tribune? Is that a scoop site?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 at 05:58:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok so if Science is dead, would anyone care to place a date in front of me for the death of religion?

I'll hand out a selection of candidates, starting with

Firstly Watson and Crick for their discovery of DNA and putting Humanity along the way to its own Let their be life moment

Secondly J Robert Oppenheimer and Albert Einstein, the consequences of whose work (Along with a selection of other Scientists) was for Humanity to have its own 'Let there be light' moment and put itself on a par with god in the ability to rain fire and destruction on their enemies.

Next Charles Darwin, the eternal bogeyman for the Christian right, whose discovery of Natural selection seems to prove god unnecessary in the road towards creation of life.

slightly further back, we have Nicholas Copernicus whos view that the earth was not the centre of the universe disproves the bible being literal truth.

As a final candidate we have an entire group of people. The Sophists of the fifth and sixth  centuries BC who appear to have been convinced that gods didn't exist and were just a matter of social custom.

If the last group were the people who actually killed religion, then Christianity and Islam would both best be classified as flogging a dead horse.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 03:22:09 PM EST
Such typical statement for lax scientist with limited view on Universe. Maybe you forget one of the basic rules of science - checking limits of its applications.

Religion like science is a system of beliefs employed by people for looking at Universe, sifting information from external world for internal uses. Besides that religions have monopolised the right to express ethical laws which are necessary for survival of particular society.

Religions have time matrix much bigger than your or my life spans and their existence is bound to many factors, too numerous to mention here.        

by FarEasterner on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 05:05:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fine

But for the fact you're wrong about me on every count.

I'm a philosopher, not a scientist, OK if i do have a specialisation, then it is the philosophy of science and ideas, but I am not a scientist.

religion is a system of beliefs imposed upon the universe. the fact that they have claimed   a monopoly on the right to express ethical laws, does not mean that they are in any way correct in that assumption, and we do not have to cede that right to the religion just because they have a crowd of fanatical supporters. That claim is the morality of the schoolyard bully.

as for the 'Time matrix' paragraph,  that's just nonsensical. If you want us to agree with you, then you will have to put up a diary and explain in terms that we will agree are justified. However prepare to be shot down  if the argument is philosophically week

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 05:30:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not surprising statement for lax philosopher who developed his own system of beliefs he thinks as the only right view on Universe.

So I understand that you believe in truth. Your Truth, conveniently adapted and changed on every turn.

I have no desire and time to win your or anybody mind with my arguments, and I hope others can accept my right to have distinctive point of view.  

 

by FarEasterner on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 05:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why Lax? (You seem fairly insistent on describing me thus , scientist or not)

oh and by the way, your first and second paragraphs contradict each other.

of course we accept your right to have a distinctive point of view, I'm just trying to work out what it actually is.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 06:07:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lax because you don't keep attention to all you say. Religion is imposed on Universe? Think twice when you try to impose your views on others.
by FarEasterner on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 06:50:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Many arguments I may be entirely facile, but when it comes to Philosophical arguments, I'm afraid I tend to get extremely precise in my meaning and usage.

Religion is imposed on Universe? Think twice when you try to impose your views on others.

I've thought a great deal more than just twice about things like this and it comes down to basically two options.

Firstly  Religion and religious ethics occur naturally and are directly handed down from a divine source. Frankly this line of argument is not even basically tenable. That isn't to say that some philosophers havent agreed with this line of argument but it still dosent make any sense.

the other option is that Religion is something, invented by humanity to provide a framework of order to the universe. To me this seems a much more persuasive argument.

The thing about science is even if it is a religion, I can go out and repeat the experiments myself, from first principles, it is a religion that lets you performits miracles every day.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 07:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ceebs, have you read George Lakoff's Philosophy in the Flesh and/or Where Mathematics Comes From, and what is your opinion of them?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 2nd, 2006 at 05:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If religion is dead, we have a serious zombie problem.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 05:24:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
do we shoot it's head off with a shotgun then/ is that the only way?

in that case pass my shotgun, and where's the pope ? ;-)

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 05:31:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Common sense somehow finds its way in.

Actually I have found how disgusting the scientific world is when I worked as social science researcher and participated in scientific conferences.

In lab I anaysed many scientific theories and I have found many of them totally baseless, founded on false generalized assumptions, biased and so on.

Therefore I came to idea that all sciences are just kind of religions especially if you analyze them as information object. They have date of birth, they struggle to survive in hostile world, then they bring some fruits, and they die in the end.

Nothing is permanent in this world.  

by FarEasterner on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 04:10:27 PM EST
In lab I anaysed many scientific theories and I have found many of them totally baseless, founded on false generalized assumptions, biased and so on.

In my lab I have analysed many airy generalised comments and found them totally baseless, founded on false assumptions, biased and so on.

Name names.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 04:14:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought I named them - social sciences called in my country as sociology.

I have also pointed the way of dissecting them - try to analyse them as information objects using statistics as a tool. You will see the forementioned circle of life.

In fact I do believe that states and religions as supreme survivors in human history will die one day too.

by FarEasterner on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 04:34:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Give him some credit.  Those old Soviet social sciences really were totally baseless, founded on false generalized assumptions, biased and so on.

:)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 05:12:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I meant Western social sciences developed mostly by Americans, by the way in modern Russia there is not a trace of marxism leninism in sociology if you meant that.
by FarEasterner on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 05:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There certainly used to be.  (Sorry, don't know your age...)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 05:25:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well Social sciences (East and West) mainly fail the tests of what it takes to be be sciences, but you can't just dismiss science in general, because some people are tryingto improve the status of their field of study by claiming a status they are not entitled to.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 05:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can dismiss science in its current western position as substitute of religion. I have noticed many people over here accept science as such.

However I may use science, even social science as approximate tools always remembering its flaws and limitations like probably you don't trust the weather forecasts in full.

by FarEasterner on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 05:44:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Standard Model isn't esthetically appealing and can't be right, but it's remarkably good at what it does.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 02:40:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Science does not have axioms. But then that is why many of us trust science more than religion. Personally I dismiss both organised religion and science as a substitute for religion.
by Trond Ove on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 07:54:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and I dismiss the use of lobster as a substitute for petroleum! Doesn't say much about the quality of lobster, or its usability for its natural purpose, to be yummy in my tummy, though...

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Alexander G Rubio (alexander.rubio@gmail.com) on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 08:29:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking of people that believe that EVERYTHING can be explained by science. And if it can't be explained by the science existing today, it doesn't exist. Believe me, these guys exist... It is a very platonic way of thinking. Reality only existing as an end result of some (more or less perfect) rules...
by Trond Ove on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 10:42:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mathematics and Logic do have axioms and thus, in that way, so does Science.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!
by ATinNM on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 06:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. If one consider mathematics and logics as normal sciences instead of completely seperate, self-referential systems that can be used as scientific tools, then science have axioms. But that is just my way of seeing it i guess. For me it comes down to that mathematics and logic have proofs, while (other) sciences have theories.

In the context of religion, I doubt if there are that many Pythagoreans around any more, however.

What I was trying to get at was that there are some who has the same dogmatic relationship with (usually natural) science as fundamentalist religious people have to their beliefs when it comes to analysing the world around us. This makes it difficult for these people to throw out their old believes if a theory that is better at explaining "reality" comes along...

I hope this makes any sense.

by Trond Ove on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 09:30:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My brain put in a context to my comment but the fingers didn't type it in.

Mathematics and Logic are tools of Science.  These are axiomatic, deductive, systems.  Axiomatic, deductive, systems are tools of Science.

Revert to previous solution.

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 07:15:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then we agree :)
by Trond Ove on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 07:12:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How can you go through science as a sociqal scientist and come out with such a deformed view of scientific processes?

I think you need to go off and read some T.S.Kuhn, Paul Feyerabend, and Karl Popper to get a solid handle on the concepts you are incorrectly dismissing.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 04:34:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kuhn, Feyerabend, and Karl Popper -- a nice set, though I think that one must take care to read Kuhn as descriptive rather than normative, and Popper as normative rather than descriptive. Feyerabend I found harder to understand, though the idea that there is "a scientific method", at the level of abstraction usually described, does strike me as wrongheaded.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 02:48:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
between the three they take you in enough directions to cover a nice balance of philosophy of science. (Although to be honest Feyerabend is generally considered to be a bit off the beaten track. but that is partly down to his SS membership. Against method is definitely worth reading for an analysis of the changing of ideas in Astronomy if nothing else. One thing to remember about this book is that it was meant to be one half of a philosophical discussion with Imre Lakatos but unfortunatele lakatos died before he could write the response.)

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 08:38:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is your view of pan-critical rationalism as a response to demands for unquestioned/unquestionable foundational beliefs?

I'm inclined to think that the idea that there must be "foundations" that "support" the structure of knowledge stems from the physical context of most human life to date, that is, immersion in a gravitational field that creates an up and down axis and a tendency for structures to collapse unless they're standing on something. In the physical sciences, it was precisely the recognition that things in the universe don't generally need "support" that got rid of the impulse to create world-on-elephant-on-turtle models.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 02:03:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have a tendancy to argue that foundations and structure would be a consequence of the inherrant structure of the language that the ideas are being discussed in. Some of these ideas will be grounded in things like gravity, some will be grounded in more nebulous concepts.

The world-on-elephant-on-turtles model is a bit of a myth really anyway (as the flat earth view before columbus is the view of a 19th century novelist).

I think that if you follow Pancreatic rationalism, you inevitably end up with an inellegant structure of justifaction of thew world and your ideas in the style of Spinoza.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.

by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 07:37:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I'm considering is the sense that structures need foundations. Earth has no foundation ourside itself, and the most structured language I know of, mathematics, likewise has none. Mathematicians worked backward from mathematics to select axioms that could be used to prove their theorems. Thus, theorems constrain axioms, and vice versa. Mathematics is a valuable, coherent structure, but there is no clear and comprehensive notion of a bottom on which it rests.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 04:40:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The classic definition of a verb is: action or state of being.

Science fits this rather well.  Science is first a repertoire of techniques.  Second, and foremost, it is a particular mind-set, attitude, philosophy, approach.  The techniques informs the mind which informs the techniques.  Above all, this means knowledge is expanding, not fixed.

I submit it is this last that drives Noonan, et. al., crazy.  They learn simple truths in grade school and never, ever, want to let them go.  

Och nu den svenska kocken bakar en Alaskan älg jägare. Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!

by ATinNM on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 06:43:44 PM EST
Well imagine that technical knowledge is a baloon being inflated, Science is actually only the skin of the baloon, where new knowledge is being deduced and theories tested, all the air inside is technology and engineering using the fruits of science.

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 08:23:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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