European Tribune

***Iran as the Ring of Power

by Migeru
Wed Aug 9th, 2006 at 04:22:39 AM EST

An important entry today in Juan Cole's blog:
One Ring to Rule Them

The wholesale destruction of all of Lebanon by Israel and the US Pentagon does not make any sense. Why bomb roads, roads, bridges, ports, fuel depots in Sunni and Christian areas that have nothing to do with Shiite Hizbullah in the deep south? And, why was Hizbullah's rocket capability so crucial that it provoked Israel to this orgy of destruction? Most of the rockets were small katyushas with limited range and were highly inaccurate. They were an annoyance in the Occupied Golan Heights, especially the Lebanese-owned Shebaa Farms area. Hizbullah had killed 6 Israeli civilians since 2000. For this you would destroy a whole country?

It doesn't make any sense.

More after the fold. Let's discuss it.

From the front page ~ whataboutbob


Juan Cole suggests that Condi Rice's behaviour shows prior knowledge and complicity, and ties it to the rumours about Blair having been informed of Israel's plans before the crisis broke out (as diaried by LondonYank in DKos). He then says:
I've had a message from a European reader that leads me to consider a Peak Oil Theory of the US-Israeli war on Lebanon (and by proxy on Iran). I say, "consider" the "theory" because this is a thought experiment. I put it on the table to see if it can be knocked down, the way you would preliminary hypotheses in a science experiment.

Juan Cole's correspondent:
...

JFR explained to the astonished audience that Iran was the most valuable country on the planet. They have one of the biggest holdings of gas and oil reserves in the world. second in gas, second in oil. On top of that they have direct access to the Persian Gulf, the Arabian Sea and the Caspian Sea what makes them a potential platform for the distribution of oil and gas to South Asia, Europe and East Asia. JRF called Iran 'the prize' . . .

The disaster in Lebanon actually was also part of JFR's presentation. He explained that the US government is 100% convinced, fanatically and completely convinced, that both, Hamas and Hizballah are creatures of Iran and that Iran uses them to undermine US goals in the region . . .

The presentation got kind of freaky then. He said the US government wanted to stop state-controlled Iranian or Chinese (or Indian) companies from controlling the oil. JFR says the US Government is convinced that this battle will decide the future of the world. It sounded like he was talking about 'the one ring' in lord of the rings. he who controls Iran controls them all. '

Juan Cole's lengthy analysis ends with this:
...

It may be that that hawks are thinking this way: Destroy Lebanon, and destroy Hizbullah, and you reduce Iran's strategic depth. Destroy the Iranian nuclear program and you leave it helpless and vulnerable to having done to it what the Israelis did to Lebanon. You leave it vulnerable to regime change, and a dragooning of Iran back into the US sphere of influence, denying it to China and assuring its 500 tcf of natural gas to US corporations. You also politically reorient the entire Gulf, with both Saddam and Khamenei gone, toward the United States. Voila, you avoid peak oil problems in the US until a technological fix can be found, and you avoid a situation where China and India have special access to Iran and the Gulf.

The second American Century ensues. The "New Middle East" means the "American Middle East."

And it all starts with the destruction of Lebanon.

More wars to come, in this scenario, since hitting Lebanon was like hitting a politician's bodyguard. You don't kill a bodyguard just to kill the bodyguard. It is phase I of a bigger operation.

If the theory is even remotely correct, then global warming is not the only danger in continuing to rely so heavily on hydrocarbons for energy. Green energy--wind, sun, geothermal-- is all around us and does not require any wars to obtain it. Indeed, if we had spent as much on alternative energy research as we have already spent on the Iraq War, we'd be much closer to affordable solar. A choice lies ahead: hydrocarbons, a 20 foot rise in sea level, and a praetorian state. Or we could go green and maybe keep our republic and tame militarism.

Go read the whole thing. Then come back and discuss it.
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More than 5 years on, and I keep getting more and more scared of the Bushies. I wonder whether Europe can stay out of WWIII.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 10:31:59 AM EST
And just think: Still two and a half years to go before they're gone.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 10:44:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You wish.

When I am feeling optimistic I think Condi with be the next President. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to guess what my pessimistic prediction is.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 10:51:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Change in the constitution to allow Bush the Lesser to run for a third term?

or

He doesn't care about the constitution - he just never leaves?

by det on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 11:04:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pretty much.

The 2008 October surprise will be one to behold.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 11:05:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah.  He'd never win -- not even by cheating.  The Dems would immediately run Bill Clinton if third terms were allowed, and it would be a landslide victory.  Bush can't hang with Clinton -- not on the issues, not on the popularity, and not even on the fundraising.  Clinton would take Florida, Louisiana, Arkansas, and probably one or more states in the Deep South (define as East of Arkansas, South of Kentucky).  It would be a nightmare for the Reps.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 11:10:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To give you an idea, a Clinton/Bush fight immediately means that Ohio flips.  The race is over from that point.  It would only speed up the West's Blue trend, too.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 11:12:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So he only has the "not leaving" option?
by det on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 11:23:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And he pulls that off...how?  There's the little problem of the new president's security detail having authorization to throw him out.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 11:28:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah - now you are assuming elections. But, you're right - I don't think he could do it.

However, THEY (let's not give Bush too much credit) have done so many things that I did not think could be done that I am now afraid of misunderestimating them. It is a cold, dark world.

by det on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 11:38:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They can't get much done at the moment.  They couldn't even weasel their estate tax cuts through Congress after shoving it behind a minimum wage increase, and the press is all over them on the minimum wage, frequently pointing out that Congress has raised its pay by about $30k since the min. wage was last increased.

The economy is going down the tubes, so they can't lean on those figures anymore.  Unemployment jumped quite a bit last month.  And unemployment is a lagging indicator.  The yield curve is inverted (and has been inverted for a while) -- meaning the difference between the yield on the 10-Year Treasury and the Fed Funds Rate is negative -- which means that a slowdown is coming.  (A slowdown has already arrived, as we saw the other day when US GDP figures were published.  I suspect there is more to come.)

Iraq is continuing to fall apart, and the public wants out soon.  Our generals are all either warning that a civil war is coming or that it has already arrived.  Seniors are now discovering the extent to which Medicare D was a crock of shit -- my grandmother among them this week.

Bush is at the point that he has nothing to talk about.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 12:05:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And yet, you expect the Republicans to beat the Democrats again, presumably on a National Security platform?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 01:00:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only if McCain is the nominee, but not on a National Security strategy.  McCain is seen as an independent thinker by much of the public thanks to a few instances where he opposed Bush.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 01:29:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What if the Democrats ran the following campaign ad?


Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 01:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Katrina isn't going to damage McCain anymore, I suspect, than it will damage the average Rep or Dem.  The administration is the biggest fuck-up in a room full of fuck-ups on that issue, in all honesty.  Would the Dems have worked harder to secure NOLA against flooding?  Maybe.  But, in fairness, this issue has been brushed under the rug for thirty years.

Now painting McCain as a Bush Republican, though, might damage McCain enough to make a race competitive, depending on how Bush plays over the next two years.  Still, to be hit, the Dems have to destroy his image as a maverick.  I question whether the Dem leadership is capable of this.  The bloggers might be able to come up with a way, but the DC establishment has proven woefully inadequate as strategists, and one needs only two words to see the proof: Joe Lieberman.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 05:26:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think it's about having secured NOLA against flooding, but hey, here we are eating cake while NOLA drowns. Gore could juxtapose this picture of himself:

Too bad so few other Democrats did anything because then they could just say "the Dems [as a party] cared about what was going on but Bush and McCain didn't.

For me, the fact that McCain would accept that Bush slandered his family for political gain in the 2000 primary, and McCain not only endorsed Bush in the end but has actively collaborated with him in order to get the nomination in 2008, completely destroys any idea that McCain is a "maverick". He simply has no dignity.

I mean, really, it should be easy to associate McCain to Bush, and spin the few times when he opposed Bush in unfavourable ways. He always ended up compromising so much the disagreement was meaningless, as with the prisoner of war legislation.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 05:36:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree, but I'm not the one to convince.  Voters have had the "McCain as Maverick" line pounded into their heads so many times ever since that 2000 primary race that an enormous mountain will need to be climbed.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 05:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If it is that obvious [to judge from how everyone on this thread seems to agree] that McCain is the man to beat, the Dems should start a campaign to erode McCain's maverick image right now. Don't make it aggressive, just start planting the idea that McCain may have been a maverick but he's how sold to Bush and has shown character weakness in relationship to him.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 05:44:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Completely agree, except that resources are focused on winning the mid-terms, as they should be, n my opinion.  What the blog-o-sphere should focus on, as far as '08 is concerned, is getting the press to pay attention to the McCain lie.  That's the strength of blogs, even more so than fundraising and organization.  The Dems have focused too much on the presidency in recent years, thinking, "Hey, if we can take the White House, the Congress won't matter so much."  That's not how US politics works.  The president, at the end of the day, is Congress's bitch, because Congress controls the money.  The Dems need to focus on growing the base and building solid majorities in Congress, so that the presidency will matter less.  Build strong, popular congressional and senatorial teams, and winning the presidency will also become much easier, I think.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 05:52:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, as soon as the midterms are over we have to go to the US blogosphere and try to kickstart the deconstruction of McCain's maverick image.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 06:05:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds like a plan.  Miguel and Drew on a mission.  It could make for the greatest EuroTrib series yet.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 06:07:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually the McCain as maverick meme didn't begin in 2000, and it isn't entirely marketing hype.  He has a well-earned reputation going back to his Naval Acadamy days and before.  In The Nightingale's Song, Robert Timberg profiles McCain and four other Academy graduates.  John McCain and John Poindexter were classmates in the Class of 1958.  Poindexter graduated at the top of the class, the perfect midshipman.  McCain graduated very near the bottom.  His exploits as a party animal, class clown, and all around misfit were legendary.  If he hadn't been the son, grandson, and namesake of two famous former Academy graduates, he might not have even been allowed to graduate.

I don't think the fact that he has been a world class Bush enabler for the past six years has damaged that reputation as much as some would like to believe.  It just puts him in the same league as about half the Democratic congressional delegation.  

Some of Bush's strongest supporters are starting to turn on him.  I wouldn't be surprised if they throw him under the bus before much longer.  I can imagine McCain becoming their new poster boy when that happens.

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.

by budr on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 06:51:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
McCain graduated very near the bottom.  His exploits as a party animal, class clown, and all around misfit were legendary.  If he hadn't been the son, grandson, and namesake of two famous former Academy graduates, he might not have even been allowed to graduate.

Oh, great, another Frat Boy. No wonder he gets along well with Bush.

Yeah, he's Presidential material.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 02:21:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You forget, there is another Lesser Bush in the wings... Jeb. Jeb 2008. You heard it here first.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 11:27:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not a chance.  He's popular in Florida as governor, but not even Floridians want him to be president.  He's still suffering from Terri Schiavo, and his education reforms are now in the process of being exposed as a giveaway to big business.  The Republicans don't even want him.

VP may be in the cards, though, as a McCain payoff to the Bush Republicans.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?

by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 11:31:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My optimistic prediction is Gore.  My pessimistic prediction is McCain.  Condi's not running.  The math doesn't work for her, anyway.  McCain is likely the next president, depending on Brother Al.  If Gore runs, he stomps McCain.  Any other Dem is stomped by McCain.  Throw Rudy Mussolini onto the GOP ticket, and it becomes impossible for the Dems to win, though, even with Gore.

Where's your motherf*%&ing flag pin?
by Drew J Jones (blahblahblah@blahblahblah.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 11:06:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Darn, McCain-Giuliani!

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 12:40:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Trust me on this - Condi won't be the next Pres.

It'll probably be McCain, unless something changes quite dramatically in the next couple years - ie a major economic recession, a huge gas spike. Something like that could radically reorder US politics.

I actually think US politics is going through an epochal change right now, but its happening slowly, so the "old order" will last in some form for a while longer. Unless some think intervenes to radically speed up the process.

by Ben P (wbp@u.washington.edu) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 01:43:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why?  No one likes her.  Not even Republicans.  All week last week the WH was making her look like a fool, conveniently forgetting to tell her each time they changed their strategy.  There is nothing remotely likeable about her, a bad thing when most of the country chooses the President based on whom they'd most prefer to have a beer with.

And don't forget that if the Republicans do any one thing perfectly, it is that they win their base.  And the majority of their base will never vote for a female President, let alone a black one.  

None of us have a crystal ball, but a little reality check may be in order here.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 10:43:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And the majority of their base will never vote for a female President, let alone a black one.

Actually, I think that's the one thing that might work for the 'Pugs. By voting for Condi, the base gets to say, "Hey, we're neither sexist nor racist," allowing them to pursue their racist/sexist agenda with a lighter heart.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 10:10:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My pessimistic scenario is any constellation in which Hillary Clinton is the lesser of two evils.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 10:11:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My pessimistic prediction for the future is that we'll all be forced to eat beans, lentils, cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage, peas, soybeans, or brussel sprouts every day (not that I dislike any of these, mind you, but every day ...) and sit for compulsory 1-hour methane collecting sessions every morning (human fart apparently only contains an average 7% methane, but extraction costs could be minimal). Which could be just about enough to run public buses for all of humanity.
by Alex in Toulouse on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 12:36:40 PM EST
Are you going to submit that to the EU's consultation on the Energy Green Paper?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 12:39:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hehehe
Well methane isn't global-cooling friendly. However you have to consider that it would be a nearly closed circuit. Eat, let out gases, collect gases, use those gases to transport the food you eat and to transport people to the crop fields, methane collection centers, and various other necessary factories).

Maybe it's worth a computation. Now let's see, methane has an octane index which is higher than regular car gasoline (130 vs 95). Every day, these 1-hour sessions could collect 20 416 666 liters of methane. And then ... ok I'll stop here.

by Alex in Toulouse on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 12:43:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Billmon wrote earlier on the same issue, also bringing in the failure of the Democrats: The War Party

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 12:53:53 PM EST
Isnt't it obvious?

I mean, what Cole says is what everybody here has in their mind....

The real, real real problem is that Iran can close Ormuz for good...and China can sell the US debt, and Russia and Venezuela can withold oil... specially Russia...

It is weird, since Russia and US could make a deal and leave China and Europe in the cold... but they have not done it yet. Russia gets more playing with the giants..waiting for his come-back but not fully behind anybody.

In any case, the question is that an attack on nuclear facilities will be answered with closing Ormuz. Iraq is hostage...so the question is if the Americans want to take the bait...lose now and win later. I personally think it is crazy and the US should give up imperial power without a fight..but...I am not the US elite.

The other option discussed about the neocon thinking of an israeli attack on nuclear facilitiies if Israel attacks, Iran closes Ormuz and nobody is ready there to retaliate, deal done.. we all get through it and then..what was the point of getting secure oil?

On the ohter hand a full air attack and occupation of the US will have the same result...only that if everything goes according to their crazy plan , they will be able to have the oil pipelines they want later on....but again, direct US involvement means china and Russia really pissed of.

So, I am sorry.. but thit is a lost-lost situation for the US...I do not see how they can make..they are strategically behind China and Russia in the medium term...I just do not see how they can make it in any scenario.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 01:38:17 PM EST
..and when I say that the US can lose now and win later I mean that they may think they can do it....giving the result in Iraq where they level of oil is still below pre-war levels.....I will not be confident that they coudl make it.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 01:40:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I generally agree.

But just to be safe I borrowed a farsi language book at the local library.

And like they say in Iran, "pesar be mard noon-e garm dood" (the boy gave the man hot bread). Isn't that cool, my first sentence!!

by Alex in Toulouse on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 01:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What for? Iran is not that important....:)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 01:52:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I need to hurry and speak fluent Farsi, Russian, Arabic, Hindi and Chinese (Mandarin) in case i need to beg for stuff in my old age.

It'll get their attention. If I just look at my henchmen and tell them "the boy gave the man hot bread" continuously, they may feel sympathy for my old carcass.

by Alex in Toulouse on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 01:56:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Check out what Juan Cole's correspondent says:
'When I was in Portugal I also watched a presentation by a guy who works for the ministry of energy in that country, a certain [JFR].

...

Later on he explained the . . . hypothesis . . . that says demand for oil will continue to grow. also for natural gas, which is even better than oil. Sadly the existing production is getting smaller, these fields are getting emptied. [One oil major] seems to believe that the gap between demand and existing production will become so large by 2015 that economic growth cannot continue. Yet there is hope on the horizon.

JFR strongly denied that there is going to be an oil peak. He says, and the oil multis seem to agree with him [- my link, JRC], that there is more than enough untouched oil and natural gas. The stupid thing: it is further to the east. Partly in Russia, but most of all, in Iran.

Let me get this straight... This guy JFR doesn't believe in Peak Oil, but still thinks supply is going to lag behind demand. Juan Cole links to the following article:
The Economist: The Oil Indurtry: Steady as she goes (Apr 20th 2006)
Why the world is not about to run out of oil

...

But is the world really starting to run out of oil? And would hitting a global peak of production necessarily spell economic ruin? Both questions are arguable. Despite today's obsession with the idea of "peak oil", what really matters to the world economy is not when conventional oil production peaks, but whether we have enough affordable and convenient fuel from any source to power our current fleet of cars, buses and aeroplanes. With that in mind, the global oil industry is on the verge of a dramatic transformation from a risky exploration business into a technology-intensive manufacturing business. And the product that big oil companies will soon be manufacturing, argues Shell's Mr Van der Veer, is "greener fossil fuels".

Then there is this in Cole's commentary:
(Since it is already coming up in the comments, I should note that the "fungibility" (easy exchange) of oil is less important in the new environment than it used to be. US petroleum companies would like to go back to actually owning fields in the Middle East, since there are big profits to be made if you get to decide when you take it out of the ground. As Chinese and Indian competition for the increasingly scarce resource heats up, exclusive contracts will be struck. When I floated the fungibility of petroleum as a reason for which the Iraq War could not be only about oil, at a talk at Columbia's Earth Institute last year, Jeffrey Sachs surprised me by disagreeing with me. In our new environment, oil is becoming a commodity over which it really does make sense to fight for control.)
In other words, oil is leaving the economic realm to enter the political realm again.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 02:13:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i read it, yes, ompletely..and i think this is the theory everybody understands.

The question is how are they going to get "the rize"...frankly I do not see how.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 02:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmph. It looks to me like JC is quoting the same Economist article that Jerome debunked a while back.

So the whole thought experiment rests on two parallel-universe propositions:


  • there is no peak oil, and

  • the Middle East amenable to external control.

Reason enough to dismiss the whole thing - were it not that there are more than enough influential (and otherwise presumably intelligent) people who drink this Kool-Aid.

A third implicit assumption is that these countries are sure to make exclusive long-term supply deals with China, India or whoever; that would seem to me to cut down on their leverage.

"Ideas or the lack of them can cause disease." - Kurt Vonnegut

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 10:30:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it's the same Economist article, thanks for making the connection.

It is actually quite amazing that the bit I quoted from The Economist reduces to "we will not run out of oil because we will make our fuel from other sources". Er... you mean we will run out of oil, but it won't matter as far as fuel is concerned? The title, in other words, is disingenuous.

Exactly, the point is that a lot of policy makers believe those two premises.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 10:42:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
cannot make any deal on oil or gas against Europe, as all the oil&gas infrastructure of Russia goes to Europe.

It is physically impossible for Russian gas to go anywhere but in Europe, and Russian oil to go outside Europe needs to go on the Baltic Sea or the Mediterranean. If we get to a point where physical control of oil matters, I seriously doubt that Europeans will let any of that oil get into the Atlantic, poodles or not.

China is a lot more vulnerable than Europe.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 04:39:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it might come to that, sadly. But I don't see the US and Russia making a deal against Europe. The US is hell-bent on reenacting the cold war, Russia is warming up to China, and the EU is not going to threaten anyone as long as it is in its current state of paralysis, which may last another 5 years.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 04:45:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good point...

it really explain the alliance about energy...what I meant about an agreement is about shipping the oil to the US and acceptance of sharing the Iran prize ... but RUssia laready has all the oil and gas they want. But in a very hypothetic cas I do not see how Europe could stop the oil with Rusiia and US threatening wiht the nuclear weapons.

SO now it makes no sense but if oil flow becomes paramount and if the US would have a puppet in Russia.. you could have an agreement on oil and Iran... Russia gas is another matter.. you are completely right....LNG need huge amount for the transport required... it does not seem possible in the near future.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 05:22:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the US is willing to use nukes on Europe, of course we can consider peak oil solved, as there will be a lot of the required demand destruction.

If we remain in the realm of barely realistic scenarios, there is no way any Russian oil will go elsewhere than Europe, unless Russia stops exporting it altogether, which might very well be taken as a declaration of war by Europe, or at least by nuclear armed France.

Strategically speaking, I don't see Russia allying with the US against Europe. Against China, yes.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 05:32:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, so are you saying France would be willing to use nukes on Russia over oil?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 05:39:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if Russia cut off oil deliveries after Europe blocked Russian tankers bound for the US after the US and Russia decided an oil alliance explicitly against Europe (presumably at a time of a world oil crisis of some kind), then yes I'd expect France to threaten use of nukes.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 06:20:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And Russia presumably will be just begging for mercy those Galls, instead of nuclear defrogging of Europe?
by lana on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 05:28:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we should just whisk off the Americans, French, and Russians and their nuclear egos to a parallel dimension and let them burn each other to crisps. The world would be a much better place for that.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 05:31:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Spanish Inquisition in action...
by lana on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 05:42:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, wrong century.

I did say burn each other to crisps, voluntarily. No coercion involved. Just spare the rest of us your neutrons.

Do you have any more national slurs to hurl around?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 06:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, we know that you spanish are secretly longing for the days of the new spanish inqusition, if only to get to issue the most horrifying order ever given:

Bring out the comfy chair!

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 09:00:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
if you mean under 'national slurs' endless attempts of different european countries/empires in different times to conquer us i ain't gonna mention them

Always wanted to know though what they teach in French schools about Napoleon's tour to Moscow. Was that just a friendly visit?

by lana on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 07:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Like I say, history is usually an anumeration of grievances.

There is a very interesting chess study about Napoleon's Russian campaign. Napoleon misses a checkmate in Moscow and then the Russian cavalry chases Napoleon's king all the way across the board to Paris and checkmates him there. Neat.

Are you so naive as to expect countries to teach their own history unfavourably?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 07:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you definitely never studied at a Soviet school where pre-soviet history of Russia indeed taught unfavourably
by lana on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 07:39:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that was necessary for the revolution, wasn't it? Except for the exaltation of Soviet scientist like Lobachevski or Mendeleyev.

I obviously didn't have the immense fortune of growing up under the Soviets.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 9th, 2006 at 04:22:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They teach that he made the mistake of attacking Russia - and add that he retreated well under the circumstances, that being the patriotic tralala extra bit. Or maybe it was the other way around, I don't remember.
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 08:12:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh, "retreated well." Funny how it looks in the light of "History".
(That other famous retreat from Dunkirk certainly was brave and patriotic, and didn't cause any problems at all for, let's say, allies such as the French army.)

-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Wed Aug 9th, 2006 at 04:58:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I got that from a series of French movies from the 1970s which made fun of France during WWII. The "Seventh Company" movies.

They're not particularly good movies, but you get good laughs throughout.

The first movie for instance starts with a narrator saying: "On this clear morning of May 1940, the French army was retreating, according to the spokesperson of the Army Headquarters, in the best of conditions. No army before this one had retreated so well, and especially as fast. The spokesperson didn't go as far as saying that it was a real pleasure to retreat like that, but almost".

There is then a scene with a German General calling his retreating French counterpart and saying "don't move, we'll be there shortly".

by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Aug 9th, 2006 at 05:12:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin!


Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 9th, 2006 at 05:17:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's amazing how some movies can pass dialog into the general public's slang, over a generation.

For instance there is this one scene in one of the 7th Company movies where this German soldiers captures a group of 7th cie soldiers, but he hardly speaks French. So he keeps on saying, with his gun pointed at them, "rester groupir", which, if I tried to translate it in English, would amount to something like "stay putting" (as in "don't disperse", "stay compact", "huddle together", "don't move", and of course "stay put").

Well this is one of the movie's tributes: I've heard "rester groupir" said in many occasions, contexts, walks of life ...

by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Aug 9th, 2006 at 05:19:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course not, but Frqnce does have the theoretical capacity to destroy much of Russia, which brings us to my initial point that Russia will not ally with the US to deny its oil to Europe.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 04:43:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i don't see any difference between your attitude towards Russia and, say, those American neo-cons you lot so like to hate, towards Iraq, Iran etc

If you look at a proper Russia map, you will see that China is one of our neighvours (while France isn't) and the USA (Alaska) is much closer to Russia than your country. And we never were in war with them. They just fit us more  geografically, and we are more interested in relationship with both of them than with your country (or even with the rest of Europe). Under relationship i mean just trade and more close cultural relations without any military help whoever asked for it. Russia is enjoying her  newly opened pacifism at the moment so don't spoil our fun and try to find the 'friends' somewhere else. Why not in South America?

by lana on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 07:29:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
North Korea is closer to your country than France is, Moscow is closer to Paris than to Anchorage, Potugal is closer to Sierra Leone than to Norway, I live closer to Barcelona than to Paris, Cyprus is closer to Libya than to Scotland, Russia is half the surface of the moon and Malta's a speck on the map, I love vodka but my neighbour prefers porto.
by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Aug 8th, 2006 at 08:20:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by whataboutbob on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 02:57:25 PM EST
Er... Juan Cole wrote it.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 03:01:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Converting the Middle East to US-Lite has always been the NeoCon plan, surely?

Of course it's insane and completely detached from reality. The US brass realises this. Even with a full draft the US could never expect to successfully occupy Iran. There might be some hope of securing the oil by genociding most of the Iranian population with nukes. But I'm having trouble seeing Russia and China allowing that. Or indeed without the rest of the world banding together and boycotting all trade with the US.

So at this point the plan is a chicken without a head. If this is the goal, it's only pig-headeness and stupidity that's keeping it alive at this point.

Perhaps Bush really is insane enough to believe it's workable. Perhaps Bush is insane enough to believe that Iraq was a success. Perhaps Bush is insane enough to believe that Armageddon will lead to the Rapture and is a good thing.

If it's the latter we're all screwed - but presumably he could launch an all-out nuke attack on Russia at any time and guarantee annihilation. So I'm not sure why this elaborate game of strategic pretexts would be required.

If it's the former - if the Dems do retake either or both houses, it's game over anyway. The pro-warrrr spell will be broken. Because at this point this is how the public seems to be trending anyway, and it would take a seismic political shift to change that direction.

I'm not even sure another 9/11 would do it, because there's so much suspicion about the original one now that any repeat would be as damaging as it would be helpful.

Strategically and politically Bush is running out of options. The political capital has run out, the armed forces have been bled dry, the brass is nearing mutiny, and Israel really doesn't have what it takes to start a war with Iran and win.

Of course if Cole is wrong and the plan is really just to destabilise the area so oil prices stay as high as possible for US and Saudi producers, that's a rather easier aim to achieve.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Aug 6th, 2006 at 07:53:14 PM EST
Iranian gas is currently worthless because it has no infrastructure to bring it to markets (pipelines or LNG trains). Building such infrastructure requires a fully functioning capitalist economy (because it includes not just the physical infrastructure, but also the commercial and financial infrastructure, something the Iranians have always refused to accept but that the Russians not very well) and full peace, because it is both expensive and vulnerable. (And I am not even mentioning the requirements for LNG tankers, built in Korea only these days, or for the very long maritime routes they would use...)

So occupying Iran, even with full control, is most unlikely to give any value to Iranian gas.

Oil is slightly less problematic, but as Iraq shows, "less problematic" does not mean "not problematic".

The only strategic value of taking over Iran and Iraq is to deny the resource to others, i.e. China, and if it gets to that point, it will be a hot war - but against China, not against Hezbollah or Iran.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 04:51:20 AM EST
Indeed my friend.

This is why Iran attack does not make sense....at all...they just can not make it.. but still they think they can....amazing...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 07:58:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A hot war against China

I like to who'd finance that...

Certainly, not the Chinese !

So the Fed would print money
& hyperinflation would rule.

by Nick Oz on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 11:54:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Примета

Если ворон в вышине,
дело, стало быть, к войне.

Чтобы не было войны,
надо ворона убить.
Чтобы ворона убить,
надо ружья зарядить.

А как станем заряжать,
всем захочется стрелять.
Ну а как стрельба пойдет,
пуля дырочку найдет.

Ей не жалко никого,
ей попасть бы хоть в кого,
хоть в чужого, хоть в свово..
Во, и боле ничего.

Во, и боле ничего.
Во, и боле никого.
Кроме ворона того:
стрельнуть некому в него.

by MarekNYC on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 04:17:38 PM EST
I like that.  


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Mon Aug 7th, 2006 at 06:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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