European Tribune - Community, Politics & Progress.

Disturbing states...

by whataboutbob
Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 07:47:41 AM EST

Any non-American visiting the US must sign this form:

Waiver of Rights: I hereby waive any rights to review or appeal of a U.S. Customs and Border Protection officer's determination as to my admissability, or to contest, other than on the basis of an application for asylum, other than on the basis of an application for asylum, any action in deportation.

Oh, and welcome to the USA...

We just got back from our visit with our niece in New York City yesterday, which in may ways was really fun and interesting...and I'll do another diary soon showing some sights of Brooklyn and Manhattan...but thought I'd share some perspectives on the US..

First, and foremost, I must say I do admire the American people, who are truly a nation of immigrants who have come there to start their lives anew. And they are a very hard working people...and as my niece observed, it truly is a land of opportunity... if you can get there, work hard, and if you have some lucky breaks. Although, I would add that the ,,opportunities" may not be as great as they once were. And Americans like to have fun...which is in abundance.

But the visit for me was also disturbing, for I came away with the impression that a vast majority of the American people have their shoulders to the plow and are working really hard...just to survive. And that for the vast majority of people, politics is something quite removed and distant from them, not really sensitive to the needs of their daily survival. I had the sense of being inside the beast, where the media just tells you what the corporations and the President wants you to hear. So either you are 1). one of the few who is motivated enough to seek out alternative news sources, in hopes of finding the real truth, or 2). you just believe what you are told (because how could the government and the media ever lie to you?), or 3) you pretty much feel skeptical or cynical about news and politics, not trusting that any of it is true, but also not feeling like there is any way to change that...and besides, I'm working too hard to keep my scene together, so who the fuck cares anyway? I think most people are split between #2 and #3.

And talking with my niece and her friends, they can see how bad things have become politically and socialy, and are completely disturbed that no one seems to be protesting...and yet feel powerless to do anything themselves. And I believe they really aren't alone...that there is a lot of unrest and disquiet. What will it take to make a change?

And it really is pretty bad, when the American Broadcast Companies` (ABC) plans an broadcast about 9/11...which is supposed to be an accurate historical review...except that they have been caught changing the history of that event, written by a friend of Rush Limbaugh's (ie, a far right-winger)...to protect Bush and blame Clinton. Stop and think about that for a moment: one of the 6 major broadcasting companies has been planning to put out a piece of propaganda that completely supports Bush's claim that American has been better since he has been president. There has been an outcry of protest about this, and even Clnton wrote a letter protesting this...but we won't know until the broadcast if they edit this to be a more honest accounting of what happened. And I could only get some information about this in the New York Times...the rest I had to go over to the Daily Kos to get the fuller story...so count on it that most of the American people have no idea that this is going on.

So upon my return to Europe, I feel thankful to be here, primarily because I feel I can have a perspective, and live within a social and political system that is more responsive to the people. And yet I feel very upset, disoriented and saddened by what I saw and felt on my visit to the States. I believe that country has been hi-jacked politically and economically...starting with Nixon, through Reagan, and to the Bushes I & II. The good American people have tried to survive and improve their lives over the last 30+ years, even as the average salary has worsened, while the corporations and the politicians they have put into power have slowly but steadily changed the nature of the government and the society it is supposed to serve. More people are poorer, more people have worse or no health insurance, the infrastructure is crumbling...and meanwhile the corporations and the richest 1% flaunt their increasing wealth and power. How can this change? Being an optimist, I believe it can, but it will take several years of persisitant work by people with a progressive view to change this...but it is what will happen between now and then that worries me. What is happening to my country of birth???

And this is the system they want to import to Europe...

Anyway, despite my somewhat agitated state, I'm happy to be "home"...

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Disturbing states... | 91 comments (91 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Disturbing states... (4.00 / 5)

Mmm... I was on some weird list for a job as head of a famed (or rich) architecture school in the US (I didn't ask, they just wanted some french guy so as to be fashionable)... But I spoke english to well for a frenchman, chained smoked, and had weird ideas about sustainability...And maybe drank too much wine!
So I wasn't selected in the last round (phew)!

I would have refused in any case, because of what you state in your diary. Plus the fact that I'm not ready to surrender willingly my private info to any country... If they want it they have to work for it!

So in the few years that are left in my life, I'm, alas, quite sure I won't visit a great country with great people living there... That's sad (and a bit stupid I must admit), but I do hope my children will compensate in better times...

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 08:19:26 AM EST

Re: Disturbing states... (4.00 / 6)

Plus the fact that I'm not ready to surrender willingly my private info to any country... If they want it they have to work for it!

LOL

To get a visa to the most of EU countries, every Russian has to "surrender loads of their private info to those countries", i.e.

proof that they are working (on an official blank with all possible stamps),
exact date of starting the job,
monthly salary (and it should be more than the average one) - mind you, not every employer feels they should to give such info to the foreigners, and rightly so,
proof that the chosen for EU journey time is indeed your official holiday,
if you're a pensioner, student, unemployed all these data has to be given by your sponsor (and it HAS to be your closest relative with proof of your relation - no friends, no boyfriends (EU keeps its moral high for fuck sake!), no collegues wanting to please a retired person,
the maiden name of your mother/your spouse's mother and exact date and place of their birth (funny for those in their 60s 'cos their parents mostly died already and not everybody knows where exactly they were born),

.........
that's what almost all EU embassies need to know...

some perverts have gone further, much further:

Italians want us to show them a bank's document that we indeed bought euros (fun for those who have already had this currency in cash and don't need to buy 'em),
Irishes want to see the documents on all the properties we've got,

but, no doubt, this year champions are French!

Since this spring, every citizen of St Petersburg (s'pose it's true for the rest of our country) after visiting France HAS TO bring their passport back to the French Consulate in St Petersburg so that the consulate officers would check it (the dates when arrived, when departed or what?)

At least when the USA asks europeans, say, French, to "surrender their info" it doesn't pretend it needs oh so desperately French wines (aren't californian ones better?), French movies (with about 5-7 actors and 2-3 actresses well in their 60s starring in every one film?), French fashions, French what else?

And compare EU needs for our gas and oil and their nasty behaviour towards every citizen of Russia - doesn't seems very wise. We basically don't care that much about what you think of Mr Putin and those in power but be sure, every time every russian deals with your embassies/consulates (which represent the will of your democratically elected presidents and prime-ministers, ergo the will of the majorities of your so civilised (not as those unwashed gringos!) countries), so every time you get one more anti-european.

So by now quite many consider Putin's policy towards Europe as unsatisfiedly soft

by lana on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 01:25:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

I can confirm from other friends that the French consulates have always been extrmely vicious and stingy in giving out visas (and, my friends tell me, it was also one of the most corrupt, i.e. one where it was easy to just pay to get a visa).

But I'll not also for balance that there have been a number of stupid "visa wars" between Russia and various countries whereby one would increase the requirements for visas from people form the other and the other would reciprocate by toughening its own criteria. The only result was to annoy travellers between the two countries.

Requirements for my yearly multi-entry visas to Russia has changed a number of times over the years. I must say it was easiest when Gazprom took care of the invitation rather than the Rep. office of my bank...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 02:49:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 1)

but be sure, every time every russian deals with your embassies/consulates (which represent the will of your democratically elected presidents and prime-ministers, ergo the will of the majorities of your so civilised (not as those unwashed gringos!) countries), so every time you get one more anti-european.

I've had the same problem with the italian embassy (never answers the phone; open two minutes on Tuesdays (I exaggerate a bit); ask for triplicate copies of any bit of official paper you don't have (I exaggerate a bit). It was worse when I lived there and had to get, among other things, a "permesso di soggiorno". The police "lost my paperwork when moving from one office to another". This turned out to be to my advantage. Because I had kept my original piece of (officially stamped) paper proving I'd asked for a permesso, they issued me a five (or was it ten?) year document instead of the usual (to be renewed with the same hassle) one-year pass.

The queues for "permessi" in places such as Genova and Torino (where I had experience) were dwarfed by those in Roma (I heard stories and saw pictures.)

But I never thought of blaming the italian citizens. Those that didn't work in the various bureaucracies were ever helpful, and those that did also helped (the art of "knowing someone who knows someone" was strong. I assume it still is.)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 06:36:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

I wasn't making a "french" stand vs whatever, but more a personal one vs "any" country (including mine, why not? But then, of course, I can't really see and feel those French embassies problem)!

When I was in Leningrad working on the IIIB Nievsky prospect project, things were not so simple, neither for us, called by the City Hall, not for others who were locals...! One of my houses is still there at the Lenexpo site... It's now used to sell postcards :-)

Bah... Must be a full moon... People are getting irritable in this thread, when the main purpose of ET, is precisely to share... Our differences !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 05:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

I think we are sharing our differences!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 05:28:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

Is that not what European Tribune, and indeed Europe itself, is all about?

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.

by budr on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 05:56:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

Yes!

Of course, it is a lot easier when it's just Europeans doing the sharing. Americans and Russians show up and wreak havoc. ;)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 06:05:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (4.00 / 8)

O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion.

I grew up during the height of the Cold War. We used to see film clips and videos from Soviet Bloc countries. There were often pictures from railway stations and border checkpoints with uniformed guards carrying submachine guns, sometimes walking with dogs on leashes.

I remember many, many discussions about the relative freedom we enjoyed compared to those poor slaves in the police states behind the Iron Curtain. Often the conversation turned to the inevitable vulnerabilities that came with living in a free society. That we would always be at something of a disadvantage because our borders were open. Many such discussions turned into a debate about the trade-off between freedom and security. All such discussions were somewhat academic. We always assumed that freedom would take precedence. We would never allow such police state tactics. That was the price we were willing to pay to live in a free and open society.

Yesterday I watched part of a presentation on heightened security at Boston Logan airport. The planes that hit the twin towers took off from Logan. There is a famous security camera video of Mohammed Atta going through security at Logan. There was much discussion of the extensive training security personnel now receive. Body language. Subliminal clues in facial expressions. Coordination of airport security with city, state, and federal law enforcement bodies. The security personnel at Logan are obviously quite proud of the improvements they have made.

Then the video cut to scenes of the concourse. There were a pair of uniformed guards carrying submachine guns walking slowly through the crowds, and another with a dog on a leash. I had to turn it off. The sense of deja vu was just too much.

We always knew that sooner or later our relative openness would reveal some vulnerability, would expose us to some attack. We always understood that when it happened we would have a renewed debate on that trade-off between freedom and security. I don't think any of us ever imagined that elements of our own government would seize such an event as an opportunity to impose the very police state we feared, or stifle the debate, to the extent this administration has.

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.

by budr on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 10:16:20 AM EST

not to mention the bitter, bitter irony (4.00 / 2)

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.

by budr on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 12:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

We used to see film clips and videos from Soviet Bloc countries. There were often pictures from railway stations and border checkpoints with uniformed guards carrying submachine guns, sometimes walking with dogs on leashes.

I was probably born late for this, but I never saw a submachine-gun-carrying border soldier or policeman while living there, perhabs except the German-German border (but that border was so scary/bizzarre anyway that guards with submachine guns would only be a small part of it). I also suspect that the railway stations you saw were in Berlin. Except when crushing mass movements, the armed wings of the dictature liked to operate out of sight.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 01:58:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

They were in Russia as late as 1996; submachine guns, dogs, searches, the whole bit.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 02:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

Weren't those new measures meant against Chechnya-reated terrorism and (Moscow) mafia activity?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 02:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 1)

As usual, the only people who are bothered by the new measures are ordinary citizens.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 02:55:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

Oh, really? Lots of Chechen terrorists coming across the Estonian border, hanging out at the school cafeterias, trying to board planes to Germany, being tourists in Yaroslavl?

BTW, "terrorism" wasn't much a part of the vocab back then. The mafia was, but one assumed these armed militsia were working for the mafia. Not the other way around.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 03:08:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

For the first, see Migeru. For the second: so did you mean private security guards, not policemen and military? Either way, you don't seem to be talking of stuff present pre-1991.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 10:57:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

No, I can't speak first hand about pre-1991. But I was talking about actual police, no private security guards.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 11:08:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (4.00 / 2)

It occurred to me as I wrote that that I was probably revealing my ignorance. The images I remember may have all been of the East/West German border and/or East Germany itself. In any case, following the propaganda of the times we were led to believe and we did believe that those images were typical of the Soviet Bloc as a whole. How naive we were that we believed ourselves to be so very much different.

Somewhere in cyberspace, the ghost of de Chardin is smiling.

by budr on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 02:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

We've had soldiers with machine guns pattrolling train stations, metros and airports since at least the early 90s in France.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 02:52:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 1)

Your riot police also has water cannons, something they can afford because they are supposed to be democratic. If Spanish police bought a water cannon everyone would be reminded of Franco instantly. Not good for PR.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 02:54:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 1)

I remember watching TV news with footage of riot police clamping down on students in Paris in riot gear and with water cannons (in 1986?). Looked scary and dictature-ish, yet I watched it from a dictature. Then again, the dictatures here worked on the basis of

arresting protest organisers beforehand, or
clubbing and arresting a handful of protesters before they call too much attention to themselves,
doing the same with people picked out from a larger protest, relying on people's lack of experience in confronting police,
relying on the memory of bloody clampdowns earlier in history.

There was also rot -- after all, most feared to order an armed attack on the mass protesters in 1989/90 (exceptions are China, Romania and Serbia).

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 11:17:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (4.00 / 3)

grew up during the height of the Cold War. We used to see film clips and videos from Soviet Bloc countries. There were often pictures from railway stations and border checkpoints with uniformed guards carrying submachine guns, sometimes walking with dogs on leashes.

The dogs were rare but uniformed guards with assault rifles all over the place was a regular occurrence in Geneva pre 9/11. I also saw it a number of times in Frankfurt. The Swiss could also get pretty crazy when a high profile visitor was in town. I remember one time there were a couple tanks in the big square outside the UN, and another time being stopped in the (public) woods by a couple very jumpy body armoured machine gun and grenade toting soldiers. I also remember one time in Frankfurt when everybody was ordered out of the plane to identify their luggage that had been dumped out onto the tarmac; supervised by a squad of heavily armed guys - seems some person had checked in but not gotten onto the plane. One thing that always struck me before 9/11 was how much less security there was in the US than in Europe.

As for Dodo's comment below - I travelled through both East German and Slovakia to Poland in the eighties and the Bratislava crossing was if anything scarier than the German-German one, with nastier guards. The machine guns, the dogs, the ripping apart of cars for contraband, the dumping of travellers luggage onto the snow just for fun, the confiscation of any scrap of newspaper, even that used for wrapping (though you did get free replacement from old copies of Rude Pravo or the equivalent). And the scariest of all, the mile plus of roadway with the machine gun towers and the warnings that anyone stepping out of the car would be shot without warning. Even the border crossings within the Bloc had a good deal of military presence, though nothing like the Iron Curtain ones.

by MarekNYC on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 03:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 1)

Interesting what you write of the Czechoslovak section of the Iron Curtain, I didn't pass there. I only knew (from West German classmates) that there were long waits. Maybe I didn't thought it could be so bad was that the security at the Hungary-(Czecho)Slovakia border compared favourably to the Hungary-USSR or especially the Hungary-Romania border (where thorough and rough searches as you described were on order, as well as waiting times of or beyond 48 hours), only the Yugoslavia border was more lax. I also forgot about newspapers -- though that because smuggling newspapers and magazines (chiefly: porn...) was a folk sport practised by just about everyone. ...and, well, "looking unsuspicious" to awoid a detailed search was another art learnt by most, so maybe born into such adaptation made me less sensitive.

Even the border crossings within the Bloc had a good deal of military presence, though nothing like the Iron Curtain ones.

Well the entire borders were off-limits and had military presence (once all my relatives on one side, including my father as a kid, was rounded up for walking along the border river -- though maybe that had to do with suspicions that one relative was the mysterious smuggler they could never catch, which he was), and the "friendly countries" strictly limited traffic between themselves (almost totally closed for a decade or so after the post-WWII takeovers, my grandmother couldn't visit her relatives until three years after her mother's funeral). And inside the countries, there were all the military bases.

But what I meant was that I didn't perceive armed presence as too much in the open. You rather had tables than soldiers with arms for all to see: for example you'd notice a Russian military base not from seeing any military but the no photography tables around it, or indeed those tables warning you not to leave your car at the border. I always saw military border patrols with dogs (except for the German-German border) from a distance, only the pass-control/toll officers came close; and the combination of meticulous searches at multiple checkpoints, long waits, and the terse tone of officers (you're always under suspicion) and texts on tables had the effect. I was also thinking about how the secret police worked mostly in the background, even in late Stalinist times when the black car camer in the night.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 11:54:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 1)

There were often pictures from railway stations and border checkpoints with uniformed guards carrying submachine guns, sometimes walking with dogs on leashes.

Since 9-11, rush hour subway trains in Chicago are stopped for routine checks every morning. Police with dogs walk up and down the length of the train.

You know, it doesn't feel as police state-ish as Russia did, where you might be asked for your papers just walking down the street. But I'll tell you this, and this is what Bob could not gather from his short tip:

It is surprising how quickly and easily one adapts to these changes. Even when you are intellectually outraged by Patriot Act type policing, you soon realize you just have to go on about your business. It becomes for of a PITA than an overtly ominious reality. Yep. We are there.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 03:29:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (4.00 / 3)

Bob, why do you hate freedom?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 10:44:30 AM EST

Re: Disturbing states... (4.00 / 6)

Two of the best observers of America have been foreigners. The first was, of course, de Tocqueville - much of what he wrote in the 1830's is still apropos.

The other was BBC commentator Alistair Cooke whose "Letter from America" ran for almost 50 years.

We could use another such person these days.

As to your observations.

NYC is unique. First in the percentage of immigrants (I think almost 40% these days). Second in the large number of places they come from. When I was working at City College they used to brag that the students spoke 104 different languages.
Visitors usually don't get to see the "two Americas" that John Edwards talks about. If you visited Brooklyn you probably saw the vibrant (but poor) ethnic enclaves that have revitalized the borough after a long period of decline.
The disparity between the haves and have-nots is much more stark than in western Europe. The poor in the US are poorer and the rich are richer. Those in the bottom third have been losing ground and working harder to stay in place. The middle 60% have been holding their own, partly due to the number of married women who have entered the work force. The top 10% have done very well, and the top 1% extremely well. If you are interested here is a site with some good stats: 101 Questions
The outcome of the elections depends upon the "mood" of the electorate. The well-off pundit class looks at macroeconomic indicators and sees a growing economy. The left wing pundit class looks at the stats I just mentioned and sees economic distress. Up until now this distress didn't translate into political action. People ignored it in favor of "values" issues like abortion or gay marriage, or felt that fighting "terrorism" was more important. Whether the tide has changed, and whether the institutional forces which favor incumbents can be overcome remains to be seen.

In any case, put on your Alistair Cooke hat, I look forward to your next installment.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 11:09:49 AM EST

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

Up until now this distress didn't translate into political action. People ignored it in favor of "values" issues

I would say you've got this exactly backwards. I would also say that the republican's "low taxes" rhetoric has accounted for more of their success than the "values" crap. This whole thing about Americans being "stupid" and voting against their own interests is largely false.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 03:32:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

I don't know if it is largely false, but it is largely shallow and unhelpfull.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 03:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

Well, you're right. Ultimately, it is against their own interests.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 03:56:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

Since when is "low taxes" rhetoric by millionaire politicians in the interest of ordinary people?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 03:42:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

Never, if you're looking at the big picture. But a lot of really bad shit has ridden in on people's need to survive. A lot of really bad legislation has been crafted around real problems. They'll throw something in people need, and carry the whole thing in on that. California's prop 101 is a prime example.

That was a horrendous law that's hurt the state in countless ways, but everyone knew it was going to pass because it also addressed a real problem the poor were having. Instead of doing something to address THAT problem, the poor were basically given a choice of prop 101 or nothing and then ridiculed for voting against their interests.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 03:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

How about Prop 13?

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 03:53:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

Oops -- it was that one I meant. I don't know where I came up with 101! Thanks for the correction.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 04:00:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

When Warren Buffet joined Arnie's campaign as an advisor and suggested getting rid of prop 13, Californiains almost went crazy. housing is so expensive for everyone that the idea of letting taxes increase with those crazy housing prices when you're retiring, or raising a family, is not appealing to any economic class--poor, middle, or rich. i guess it was appealing to Warren (who doesn't pay california taxes except for his 2nd home here), but Arnie and everyone else quickly disowned his idea. Home property taxes do go up every year, but only with general inflation. I personally don't know anyone that wants to do away with prop 13. and with state sales taxes that are in the 8%+ zone, property taxes based on very expensive homes that are indexed to inflation as long as you own your home (but are adjusted to market price when a new home owner buys a home), and state income taxes that go up to almost 10%,,,,it's hard to believe there is not enough money for our politicians to spend, if they would just do it efficiently.

by wchurchill on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 03:32:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

I personally don't know anyone that wants to do away with prop 13

You could talk to the people whose after-school programs evaporated overnight in the 1970's, for instance.

it's hard to believe there is not enough money for our politicians to spend, if they would just do it efficiently.

Apparently through the overuse of the initiative system so much of the CA state income is earmarked for this or that purpose that there is little leeway left in the general fund. I don't know whether that's true, or to what extent. It would be nice to see some actual figures, and a list of earmarks.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 03:36:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Prop 13 - rent control (none / 0)

housing is so expensive for everyone that the idea of letting taxes increase with those crazy housing prices when you're retiring, or raising a family, is not appealing to any economic class--poor, middle, or rich.

What makes this any different from the argument for rent control? Letting rents increase with those crazy housing prices isn't all that pleasant either. Yet somehow I regularly read columns and articles denouncing rent control as anti-market commie heresy from people who, at best, worry about property tax caps as a state revenue issue.

The argument that rent control inhibits development can be dealt with by allowing market rates for new housing, the possibility that operating costs will eventually outstrip rents can be solved by letting the rents rise by the amount the cost go up. And like with property taxes you can have vacancy decontrol. In other words something similar to the NYC rent stabilization laws which also decontrol rents for high income households (good) and only apply to rents below $2000 (not so good) (not to be confused with the very badly crafted rent control laws that have been phased out over the past thirty years - those basically froze rents)

by MarekNYC on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 04:16:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Prop 13 - rent control (none / 0)

The point is to make economic arguments protecting the owner class. Hence no rent control and no property taxes or inheritance taxes, and blaming the politicians for financial mismanagement.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 04:21:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Prop 13 - rent control (none / 0)

Hence no rent control and no property taxes or inheritance taxes, and blaming the politicians for financial mismanagement.

Property taxes and inheritance taxes are different issues. The estate tax doesn't really affect anyone except the wealthy. On the other hand property tax limits affect a pretty wide range of income levels. It's why if politicians and pundits also supported rent control I'd be sympathetic to some sort of stabilization of property tax rates, with the provision that high income families are on their own (in NYC the rent stabilization income ceiling is 200k) and that they only apply to increases due to rising property values, not rates - buffering people from market volatility is different from protecting them from tax hikes approved directly or indirectly by voters.

by MarekNYC on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 02:02:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Prop 13 - rent control (none / 0)

I agree with you that the rent control parallels this problem of property taxes.

The argument that rent control inhibits development can be dealt with by allowing market rates for new housing, the possibility that operating costs will eventually outstrip rents can be solved by letting the rents rise by the amount the cost go up. And like with property taxes you can have vacancy decontrol.

And this solution seems to address the issue.

by wchurchill on Mon Sep 11th, 2006 at 01:30:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (none / 0)

Since when is "low taxes" rhetoric by millionaire politicians in the interest of ordinary people?

Define ordinary. When tax cuts disproportionately help out the wealthy, but provide real immediate gains to those who are just doing reasonably well (let's say over 100K), it's not immediately apparent to the latter group that the tax cuts aren't in their interest.

The pool of eligible voters has a higher median income than the nation at large, mainly due to non citizens being poorer, with an assist from the same being true of ex-felons. Within that group the poor are less likely to vote, so the pool of actual voters has an even higher median income. Add in those younger people with a realistic chance of getting into that group over time and older people with lower incomes but with low expenses and kids doing well and it's still probably a minority, but a very large portion of the electorate nonetheless.

by MarekNYC on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 03:56:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Disturbing states... (4.00 / 5)

Why have so many poor catholics throughout history supported the church when it was not in their interest to do so? One of the obvious reasons is that as the church was considered to be the moral authority, they were to be obeyed. The resultant pain is referred to as "sacrifice" among other questionable adjectives.

There is a similar cultural myth at work here. Wealthy Americans are the "winners" of the American Dream. As such they should be rewarded with tax cuts for their "hard work" and "ingenuity" rather than "punished" with high taxes. People who buy heavily into but fail at the American Dream are the most likely to succumb to this dynamic even when it isn't in their financial interests. It's certainly in their intellectual and emotional interest.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 11:47:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

SMGs and dogs (4.00 / 4)

Whenever I see armed police I feel less, not more safe. Must be a collective-unconscious remnant of Franco's time (before I was even born).

Americans need a taste of dictatorship to remind them what the Declaration of Independence was all about. They've had it so good for 225 years that they don't understand why they need their freedom.

Nothing is 'mere'. — Richard P. Feynman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 10th, 2006 at 02:52:32 PM EST