European Tribune

Could Europe stumple into a wider Middle East war in the next five years?

by Joerg in Berlin
Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:22:37 AM EST

Over in the comments section of "To defeat the beast, don't feed the beast", Migeru wrote: "I think UNIFIL is more likely to piss off Israel then the Lebanese. It already has." and in a another comment added "We saw a couple of days ago Israel is unhappy that France and Italy will actually be deployed armoured vehicles and anti-aircraft missiles."
 
I would like to see that comment thread discuss what the best way is to reduce terrorist attacks in Europe in the long term. I would appreciate your suggestions in that thread.
 
Let's discuss Migeru's comment in a new thread, i.e. here:
 
I think, Israel got a good deal by having European troops as babysitters at its Northern border. Thomas Friedman thinks so too in a recent NYT column:


More important, what have we learned in recent years? One, Israel's occupations of the West Bank, Gaza and Lebanon are unsustainable. And two, Lebanon and the Palestinians don't have their act together enough yet to control border areas when Israel leaves -- either by agreement (Oslo) or by just unilaterally withdrawing and throwing the keys over the fence. As a result, the peace process has not been "land for peace," but "land for war." When Israel pulls out of Gaza, Lebanon and the West Bank and wants quiet, it needs a reliable structure of authority on the other side, which, right now, neither Lebanon nor the Palestinians alone can provide. The U.N./European force evolving in Lebanon may offer a new model. It's not "land for peace," or "land for war," but what I'd call "land for NATO." Israel withdraws and the border is secured by a force that is U.N. on the outside but NATO on the inside.
 
"The fact that it has a heavy European/NATO component makes it credible to Israel, and the fact that it has a U.N. umbrella makes it acceptable to the Arab world," said the U.N. under secretary Shashi Tharoor, the dynamic Indian diplomat who is a finalist to succeed Kofi Annan as secretary general and who deserves U.S. endorsement. The Europeans have to understand "that something very big is at stake in this force," said the Israeli political theorist Yaron Ezrahi. They have to prove that demilitarization in south Lebanon can give Israel security and Lebanon both sovereignty and an effective international partner to maintain order. If that happens, he added, "it could revive the chances for an eventual Palestinian-Israeli deal on the West Bank and Gaza." Yes, it's a long shot, but maybe something good can actually come out of this good-for-nothing Lebanon war.

Indeed, something good can come out of it for Israel, but not necessarily so for Europe. If Israelis are unhappy with the Europeans, they will take care of Hezbollah themselves. Besides, the US isn't going to attack Iran (because of Iraq etc.), but Israel might do so. What would that mean for Europe, especially our troops in UNIFIL?
 
Haaretz wrote recently that Israelis are concerned that Israel can't accept the threat of Iran's nuclear program and that the US will not attack Iran:
Several weeks ago, a gloomy conversation took place between an Israeli visitor and American staffer at the office of a veteran and hawkish senator. "What about Iran?" "Iran is a very serious problem. We cannot allow it to have nuclear weapons." "And do you think real sanctions will be imposed against it?" "Maybe. The possibility exists."
   
"And would they help?" "I don't believe so." "Would America attack?" "I don't think so. The chances are slim."
   
There you have it, on one foot - the entire canon of the Iranian crisis:
   
the threat, the means of pressure, the predicted outcome. Not a single American analyst would be unable to explain the enormous danger to the region and entire world that is posed by Iran's acquisition of nuclear arms. Nevertheless, the American explanation sounds different than the Israeli explanation; it is cold, calculated and remote. And devoid of any sense of existential fear.
   
If it is difficult to imagine the United States using force against Iran, herein lies the reason. Although it has no interest in seeing an Iranian finger on the button that controls a nuclear device, and it comprehends and has processed the difficulties and complications stemming from such a situation - it would be hard to find anyone in America who wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat, and who harbors the fear that America might be destroyed sometime soon.
   
Evidently, there is an unbridgeable gap between the Israeli and American attitude to the Iranian threat. About six months ago, in an interview with this writer in Haaretz, conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer described the disparity by citing a line by the Czech writer Milan Kundera. "A small nation can disappear, and it knows it." He expressed himself similarly with regard to former president Bill Clinton in the days of Oslo, and about his promise to Israel, that "it would take risks, and we would support."
   
This is the abyss that cannot be bridged between the consciousness of an American president and that of an Israeli leader: there are risks that a superpower like America can take, but which for a state like Israel are much more complex. There are situations that an American president is unable to imagine, but are practically the daily bread of an Israeli leader, the product of a familiar and painful history. The moment is growing close, it seems, at which the U.S. leaders are likely to reach that certain point in their attitude to Iran - the moment at which the president's "we will by no means permit" will turn into a traditional capitulation in the form of "the Security Council has again proven that it is incapable of doing anything." (...)
   
Four months ago, the cover of the weekly National Journal featured a skull adorned with the same spikes that grace the Statue of Liberty. "If Iran got the bomb: Could Washington coexist with Tehran if the mullahs got nukes?" ran the headline. The lengthy article offered a hesitant "yes" in response. Suitable deterrents, said the article, could prevent Iran from going wild. America can evidently learn to live with it. It would most certainly not be destroyed. Could Israel draw the same lesson?
   
This is the beginning of a discussion that will gain momentum as it becomes increasingly clear that the campaign to force Iran's hand is ineffective. The debate will weigh possible pros and cons, and consider the line of political credit of the current president. Therefore, the date is also drawing near on which any country that feels threatened will have to weigh its own pros and cons. Each sovereign state will have to tabulate its own account, every nation and its leaders. It makes sense to prepare for that day - operationally, yes, but also, and to no lesser degree, mentally. Because the moment could come when the interests of the American mammoth are no longer those of the Israeli fly that sits on its back. And if and when that day comes, it will be very frightening.

Some say, Israel attacked Lebanon in June so that Hezbollah would be weaker, when the day comes that the Israel will bomb Iran's nuclear sites. It is save to assume that Iran would respond to such an attack in various ways. One of them would be to let Hezbollah hit at Israel's northern border. Now we got European troops at Israel's northern border...Iran can easily arm Hezbollah again...European troops are in the middle of this Israel-Hezbollah-Iran conflict.


Israel will not hit Iran anytime soon, but an Israeli strike against Iran's nuclear sites is a realistic possibility in the next few years, when European troops will still be at Israel's northern border...

MY QUESTION:     Are you concerned that UNIFIL will result in mission creep for Europe?
                                Are we right now stumbeling into an upcoming Iranian-Israeli war?

Or have their already been diaries about this that I missed and did not find via google? 
Migeru mentioned that France stationed anti-aircraft missiles in Lebanon. I don't think they are meant to hit Israeli planes, but Iranian planes. Perhaps the France is preparing for the worst case, i.e. getting involved in an Iranian (and Syrian?)-Israeli war. Or to shoot down some Saudi fighter plane, whose pilots are more loyal to some terrorist groups than their government, and could fly away with one of sophisticated US bombers. As always, I don't know anything, and would appreciate your input.

And please continue the debate in my other diary about the best way is to reduce terrorist attacks in Europe. I would appreciate your suggestions in that thread.

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Poll
Is Europe getting involved in an upcoming Middle East war thanks to UNIFIL?
. No, there won't be war involving Iran, Hezbollah and Israel (and the US) in the next five years 0%
. Yes, there will be such a war within the next five years and UNIFIL (i.e. Europe) will have to defend Isreal 11%
. Yes, there will be a war, but European troops would join it anyway, so don't blame UNIFIL for it 0%
. No, there won't be such a big war in the next five years, but there will be another some skirmishes between Israel and Hezbollah and UNIFIL will be in the middle, but they can handle that. No escalation. No reason to be that concerned. 22%
. No, there could yet be another war, but Europe will cut and run if it happens. 55%
. Yes, there could yt be another war, and Europe will be forced to suppress it by militarily confronting both sides. 11%

Votes: 9
Results | Other Polls
Display:
Well if Thomas Friedman says it, it must be wrong.

"Take care of Hezbollah?" Like in the last war? Surely that could lead to UNIFIL forces firing on Israelis? Why is that inconceivable?

And why isn't it an option in your poll?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:50:41 AM EST
It was a poor choice of words based on lack of time. I should have written "deal with" instead of "take care". So far Israeli never succeeded in taking care of Hezbollah.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:32:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean "make a deal with"?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:35:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Israel will strike at Hezbollah in the next few years, if it feels threatened and UNIFIL's work insufficient.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:41:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And do you think that is a rational response?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:47:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think mathmaticians are the only creatures who respond rationally ;-)

Read the Haaretz post to get a glimpse of what many Israelis think. It does not matter what I think or whether that is rational or not.  

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:00:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you not capable of making a rational assessment?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:04:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jïrg is right, though: the rationality of an action is irrelevant if the overwhelming perception of the actor is that it is in its own best interest.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:07:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It does however affect how you deal with that actor.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not necessarily. Irrational doesn't mean unpredictable.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 05:58:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know. I think if that happens, it will be due to (a) amnesia or (b) cognitive dissonance or (c) belief that they found some new tactic or Wunderwaffe. As I analysed in my extensive Lebanon Redux 2 and the later short Europe's Phantom UN Army diaries, if one looks at the discrepancy between the realities on the ground and discourse for the public, UNIFIL is part of a big smokescreen that allowed the ending of an unwinnable war while returning to a de-facto status quo (and as such a good thing, a success of French and European diplomacy). E.g., based on the evidence reviewed therein, I don't think Israel's government expects much in terms of "disarmament" or "protection" from UNIFIL behind closed doors.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:10:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
returning to a de-facto status quo (and as such a good thing, a success of French and European diplomacy). E.g., based on the evidence reviewed therein, I don't think Israel's government expects much in terms of "disarmament" or "protection" from UNIFIL behind closed doors.

I agree. That's why I fear that Israel might go after Hezbollah regardless of the stationed UNIFIL troops.
Not tomorrow or next week, but in the next couple of years. Then Europe is caught in a bigger mess.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:37:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree on both counts, but to make my point even more explicit, the matter is not Israel's feeling of lack of protection, the matter is Israel's feeling of lack of military means, which is proved by stopping a war by accepting a mask they must know won't advance their goals. The war will become likely once the latter feeling is gone.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:29:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have just added that option to the poll.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:36:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I failed. Updating the poll apparently isn't possible, although nobody voted so far.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:38:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Incidentially, do you think that an Israeli attack on Iran would be justified?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:53:46 AM EST
Currently I am less interested in right or wrong, but more in success or failure.

Israel's last war with Hezbollah was a failure.

And if Israel attacks Iran, it will probably result in a failure as well.

Could we please discuss UNIFIL and Europe's options?

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Currently I am less interested in right or wrong, but more in success or failure.

So how do you assess success or failure? Over what time-span?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding Europe's options, do you think of options at resolving or managing the conflict?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:17:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
5) Neither, there could be another war, but the Europe will cut and run.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 11:19:15 AM EST
This is my choice to.

The UNIFIL+ is a fig-leaf to let the israeli side save face while ending the war. The european governments are happy to provide a fig-leaf (goes home with the home audience, makes leaders look forceful and yet peaceful) but will want their troops back in one piece. So the troops will essentially not do anything but observe and then get called home in case of escallation.

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 11:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have added that option to the poll
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:35:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, not possible. Updating the poll apparently isn't possible, although nobody voted so far.

You could make a new diary with a poll that includes Colman's and your suggestion

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 12:39:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gnome forces were enough :-)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:12:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If Israelis are unhappy with the Europeans, they will take care of Hezbollah themselves.

  1. UNIFIL is not going to "take care of" Hizbullah.
  2. Israel just tried and failed to "take care of" Hizbullah.

The notion that you can defeat a guerrilla that is on its home ground, defending its own country, and supported by its people, is nonsense. Despite the bluster, Israel will have to settle down to this.

Israel will not hit Iran anytime soon, but an Israeli strike against Iran's nuclear sites is a realistic possibility in the next few years

Israel will do this without Washington's permission and therefore at least diplomatic support?

How can we uncouple Israel and America? How can we talk about the Middle East without talking about that couple? How can we discuss war, peace, and terrorist attacks while setting it aside, as you seem to wish to do?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 11:30:48 AM EST
This is my source for the claim that
Israel is deeply unhappy with France (and now Italy) having brought heavy tanks with their forces, as well as anti-aircraft missiles.


Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:14:16 PM EST
Thanks. Jerome also wrote "Howver India and others are not happy with this "arms race" and fear they'll be caught in the crossfire (i.e. between Israel and UNIFIL)"

Interesting.

As I wrote in my post I fear that UNIFIL might be caught in the crossfire between Israel and Iran/Hezbollah/Syria.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 02:32:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it would be interesting for Jerome to provide more of the Canard original text.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding India, read this story about India declaring their troops won't disarm Hezbollah (and will be pulled out if UNIFIL is required to), and this followup.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:26:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Haaretz article seems to miss a crucial point: Israel cannot strike at Iran without American collaboration. Or does it plan to hit Iran with nuclear tipped missiles? I don't think that is an option as it will make Israel an international pariah.

If the Americans don't want to attack Iran, Israel has no chance of doing so as it would need to go through Iraqi (or Turkish) airspace. It can only happen when the American air force withdraws from the region.

Let's repeat: if the Americans don't agree with the attack, it can't happen.

In the hypothetical case that there will be a conflagration, I also think Europe will quickly withdraw its troups from the region, probably in advance.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:17:22 PM EST
I am more and more hoping that Iran gets the nuclear bomb. Then we'll have a classic stand off and things will cool off. The dangerous period is before Iran actually gets the bomb, because that's when an Israeli strike has strategic value.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:17:40 PM EST
I don't agree. The most dangerous phase is when both sides have a first strike capability, because then they both have the chance to eradicate the enemy without being eradicated themselves.

There will be no guaranteed nuclear safety until both sides have credible second strike capabilites, and that means strategic submarines. Israel is doing its best to get them. This will be good enough for a while as Tel Aviv is probably less inclined in launching a first strike than Tehran is.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:26:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Third parties can always provide an informal second strike capability. What would happen if Iran nuked Israel?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:28:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Israelis can't be sure about US assistance. Not entirely sure. In the end, they trust only themselves.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 12:06:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly, that was the point made in the Haaretz article that was quoted extensively in this diary.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:02:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Israel already has second-strike capability thanks to Germany.
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 09:08:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was what I was hinting at. But,

Two new submarines which Israel would receive under a deal it signed with Germany last month, will only start being delivered in 2010


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid (arvid.hallen at gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 12:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but Germany already delivered two (three?) submarines in 1998 or 1999. I think I mentioned that as well in the post I linked to.

As far as I know, those submarines could have been and probably have been modified to be equipped with nukes.

by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:04:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as I know, those submarines could have been and probably have been modified to be equipped with nukes.

Yes, they can be equipped with nuclear tipped cruise missiles.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 10:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is a link to an article on the Dolphin-class submarine and its nuclear capability.  

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 10:27:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the date when Iran will have its own nukes, no? So it fits.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:28:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed
by Joerg in Berlin ((joerg.wolf [AT] atlanticreview.org)) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:08:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry but i couldn't take the pool because there is may be an other option:
UNIFIL does the work that is instructed to do until a new "map reading mistake" by an Israeli F16 pilot/s kills a bunch of blue helmets who are sitting to close to an Hezbollah observation/katiushia launcer post generating a wave of anti-Israeli sentiment in Europe and "freezing" of  UNIFIL activities. This will naturally be denounced as new evidence of European anti-semitism and Israel will see it self with no other option but to re-bomb the Lebanon's Hezbollah positions in south Lebanon as well as on the Syrian border. All ways because of "map reading mistakes" the F16 with the David star will also bomb some objectives inside Syria...then all guesses are good. My guess is that Syria will escalate with Iran support. Israel will bomb Iran with the secret OK of the US  and the UK as was for the first round of bombing in Lebanon. Iran will escalate in Iraq and block Hormutz. Oil will go to 200$ a barrel and the Europeans will be forced to help "pacify" the region. Israel can attack Iran with the support of the usual two and take out all nuclear installations together with many military ones but the war can go on for years before the "pax americana" is imposed and the region is pacified.  
by stefan on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:27:23 AM EST


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