European Tribune

Open Thread - Friday Evening

by whataboutbob
Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 10:58:27 AM EST

Open thread for any breaking news, comments, and so forth...

And by the way, although I have taken a sabbatical from regular gnome duties... I still want to take a moment to encourage all of our community members to keep writing diary articles (I mean, just because Jerome is back, don't be shy...you all did such a great job keeping this place going over the summer...).

Cheers!


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By the way, our long time ET community member Melanchthon, has been working his butt the last year to put together this big conference in Lyon...which is soon to occur. I guess you have been too busy to blow your own horn, Mel, so I'll do it for you:

Check out this out website, which is in French, Spanish and English:

Forum For Responsible Globalization

http://www.global-economic-and-social-forum.com/

Set to occur from October 25th to October 28th in Lyon, France. It sure would be nice if we could have some folks attend it (hmm, wonder if we could have an ET table there? Though maybe its a bit too late for that...)

Melanchthon, if you are around, let us know what's going on there...

Here's the Objectives and topics covered page:

http://www.global-economic-and-social-forum.com/topics_2006/index.php

Hope it is a great success!!!

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!

by whataboutbob on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 11:07:13 AM EST
This looks very worthwhile indeed.

A bit far to get to from here, unfortunately. Otherwise I'd happily spend a day there.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:14:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is not to say I don't think the diaries we have now and have had lately aren't great...they are...I'm just greedy. More, more!!

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 11:15:55 AM EST
You got a little greedy with the triplenegatives there ;-P

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 11:39:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
<heh> should have left it with the keep it simple maxim....

Half the population is under the age of 18. Tanzania's future is NOW...join the 50% campaign!
by whataboutbob on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 11:48:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No sentence is wrong without an unseemly restriction on negatives.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:11:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Guardian:    
It's a school of government. Already, there's trouble
(September 15, 2006)
Tony Blair has often taken his lead from Washington during his premiership. As he contemplates retirement, his staff are again looking west, seeking inspiration from the example of American presidents.

At Harvard there is the John F Kennedy Institution. Bill Clinton has his own foundation. Now Tony Blair, it seems, could have his own "school of government". According to academic and other sources, Jonathan Powell, the prime minister's chief of staff, has been sounding out the London School of Economics about the establishment of such a new body.

...

The response at the LSE was initially enthusiastic. But some academics question whether Mr Blair's involvement would compromise the university's independence. One said: "It would need to be de-Blairified before it could go ahead." The fear is that the retired prime minister might come to be indentified too closely with the LSE.

De-Blairification, now there's an idea.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:38:26 PM EST
This is London: Pressure mounts for 'ban' on zero-size models (September 15, 2006)
Pressure was mounting today for a catwalk ban on super-skinny models.

On the eve of London Fashion Week the growing trend for "size-zero" models in the fashion industry is causing grave concern.

...

They are urging London to follow the lead taken by Madrid -- and likely to be adopted by Milan -- of banning models below a certain size from the catwalks.

...

Sarah Doukas, founder of Storm, the London agency that employs Cole, hit back at the calls for a ban.

She said: "It is useless to talk about body mass indexes. Who knows what that means apart from your doctor?

"It depends on different body types. Some people have different muscle density.

Yeah, it's a doctor thing, so it's useless, unlike "muscle density", which is a very useful concept to weasel out of the discussion.

Also amusing is what The Times of London had to say about this last week (see the breakfast)

But pear-shaped females should not celebrate too heartily, for the leading names of world fashion are showing no sign of following in the Spaniards' footsteps. The Pasarela Cibeles trade fair in Madrid is a minnow compared with the big fish of Milan, Paris, New York and London fashion weeks.
Well, Milan is reportedly "likely" to follow siut already...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:54:39 PM EST
I sure hope they succeed. Why should I want to identify with a aprox. 17 year old anorexic. Isn't that the purpose of these fashion shows that we identify with the models and thus want to look like them and thus of course want to buy the clothes they are wearing.
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't that the purpose of these fashion shows that we identify with the models and thus want to look like them and thus of course want to buy the clothes they are wearing.

No, the purpose is to make as many as possible feel unhappy about themselves and thereby produce the need to shop for beauty and happiness. So the more inaccesible the ideal is, the better.

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:57:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Making us unhappy is the job of all advertising for non-essential consumer products - otherwise It wouldn't work. The promise made in every ad of this sort is that life will be better (read 'happier') when you buy what we're selling.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:24:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't be silly. Economics clearly show that advertising is purely informative and has no effect on consumer preferences.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:26:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If only ;-)

Oi vey...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:04:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I watched one of the 9-11 conspiracy videos today.  At least with the Pentagon crash and flight 93, they make a very good point:  the debris and targets in the crashes do not look the way they should.  

I used to test aircraft engines for Prattt and Whitney and sat at dozens of enquiries about air crashes and I've never seen debris like that of those two crashes.

It's a google video called "Loose Change"

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:02:28 PM EST
The conspiracy thing just doesn't seem to go away. Today's headline of the 'Blick' was, it is not yet online, so I do not know what it is really about - 'Schweizer Uni-Forscher stellen heisse Fragen:
9/11: Steckt doch der Bush-Clan dahinter?' (Swiss Universitiy researchers are asking hot questions: 9/11: is the Bush-Clan yet behind it?

I know it is the Blick, I saw the headling while waiting in line at the supermarket - it is equivalent to the Bild in Germany and I think the Mirror in the UK - but still, the topic is not going away.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:13:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well, the thing that convinced me about this movie was at the Pentagon crash, they showed the hole in the wall caused by the plane.  There was no way that a 727 went into that hole because it was about 10 metres high and about 5 metres wide.  I mean, what about the wings?

The wings weren't lying on the ground either.  There was just no wreckage.  To me, it was really that simple

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:17:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know what the truth is, but I am convinced that the official version is not true. Why should a government that lies when ever they open their mouth, tell the truth in this one thing. Besides there are just to many question marks and unanswered questions.

It makes sense to me what you describe about the pentagon  crash. Just wondering if we will ever find out the truth. Maybe with the internet it might be possible, as information can not be hidden as easily anymore.

by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:21:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
another thing I wanted to "investigate" is that the first plane hitting the World Trade Centre doesn't look like a plane.  The second one does, but the first really doesn't.  Now that I have downloaded the video, I can stop and freeze the frame.  

If you're intested, look at video.google.com

The one I was watching was Loose Change but if you google 9-11, you should be able to get a few others, including those that debunk the debunkers.

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:25:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
1.  I've gone through the following process:  Initially being in disbelief and offended by the idea that our own govt could do this (many of my friends were suggesting it just weeks after the event.)  To thinking that it was not planned, but gross negligence by the Bush Admin (remember that PDB?).  To thinking they knew it would happen and did nothing to stop it because it would benefit them.  To being open to the possibility, or even probability that the Admin was involved in the orchestration of the event.

I think my best guess right now is that knew it would happen and did nothing to stop it because it would benefit them.

One simply cannot comprehend just how well they have benefitted from the attacks.  Almost nothing this administration has done can be even remotely justified without 9-11.  

But I've always been pretty liberal and pretty open to conspiracies.  I will say this on behalf of the American people: it is difficult to wrap your brain around the fact that the people who are supposed to be protecting your safety, your way of life, your country, are actually out to kill you.  Minorities, draftees, etc have experienced this.  But for most Americans, the idea that we could be attacked, militarily, by our own White House, in a time of peace, requires such a shift of consciousness that it may take decades or centuries to accept that.

It reminds me of a story I heard about Columbus' ships arriving in the Americas and the native peoples not seeing them on the horizon because they simply had no reference in their psyches to recognize them.

Here is a reference to that legend.
http://www.empowermentillustrated.com/mtarchive/000663.html

I don't know if it is true, but it sounds appropriate to explain much of what is happening now.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i had that shift happen while watching a documentary on pbs in the 80's (very late at night, when all good drones are slumbering), about the christic institute eand their investigations into cia cocaine smuggling and the huge rise of coke use in the usa.

nancy 'eyes apopping' reagan was touring the schools wisely enjoining the children to 'just say no', like the compassionate soul she was, and there on the tv was a damning document with bush senior's john hancock on it.

right there, on my tv, in america!

i always loved phil donahue and 60 minutes, but this was a whole new level.

i never doubted for an instant that 9-11 was a false flag....it was too spielberg to be anything else...

i still have a touching faith in the moon landing, santa claus and the tooth fairy!

oh yes, and that we will pull our collective cranium outta our collective rear end one fine, sunny day...

9-11 changed everything...i became a news junkie (and stopped reading fiction.....)

i know a third act-opener when i see one, and the stagecraft of this saudi moriarty served as a rousing wake-up call.

to what?

1984 - the sequel?

i'll let you know after a long, refreshing nap...

Peace is not the absence of war -- peace is the absence of fear. Ursula Franklin

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 08:33:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These arguments have been debunked a number of times, here and elsewhere.

Please, no conspiracy theories here on ET. I don't intend to ban anyone on this like on dKos, but I find the topic tasteless, pointless and mindless.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that if we are going to refer to ourselves as "reality based" we have an obligation to find out what "reality" is.  Even when we find it tasteless.

I find Kos' policy regarding the topic appalling.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:59:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
poemless, if you know it, can you quickly tell me something about Frederic Forsyth's "Icon" and its film interpretation? 100% Russophobic/total waste of time to watch, or not?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:26:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No clue.  Looks like the film is produced for the Hallmark Channel, which, translated into Hungarian, means, "Run for your fucking life."

And this from the author's wiki page:

"Forsyth is a Eurosceptic Conservative. In 2003, he was awarded the One of Us Award from the Conservative Way Forward group for his services to the Conservative movement in Britain."

Sounds like here might be something better to do with your time.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:37:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks! The novel and film is about Russia, that's why I thought maybe you know it, but the above info is thumbs down enough for me.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:42:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We bought a rail map of Europe today ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you travel across the north of Wales, or do you come down the Cambrian coast line through Macynlleth?

Life should consist in at least fifty percent pure waste of time, and the rest doing what you please.
by ceebs (bunchofwankers (at) gmail (dot) com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:34:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Hallmark channel?

Picking jaw from floor, will be back when I glue the pieces together.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:49:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's the deal with the Hallmark Channel? Is it some right-wing madhouse, think Fox or Clear Channel?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:10:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hallmark has a virtual monopoly in the printing of stupid greeting/birthday/inspirational cards and the marketing of kitsch trinkets.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:12:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think they are politically motivated like FOX, but they specialize in sappy made-for-TV films that are "appropriate for the whole family".  I think they have some backing from faith based organizations.

Their biggest offense is the promotion of attrocious acting and writing.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:26:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're reality biased. Most people are actually. The only ones that aren't eat grains and levitate all day long.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:55:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that a sourdough version of reality?
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Click for (much) larger.

See this

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sorry, not convincing
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:26:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not up to me to convince you, it's up to you to convince me.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:30:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now, if we're going to do this honestly you have to set the goalposts ahead of time.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:32:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This started this thread:


I watched one of the 9-11 conspiracy videos today.  At least with the Pentagon crash and flight 93, they make a very good point:  the debris and targets in the crashes do not look the way they should.  

An extraordinary claim. So far I have seen no evidence beyond "it doesn't look the way it should and I know, I'm a mechanical engineer".

I don't claim any mechanical competence, but I call for evidence. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thus your comment is disingenuous. I did not move the goalposts.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:38:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to give some indication of what you will accept as "extraordinary evidence" ahead of time. I did not say you moved the goalposts.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:44:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't even try to convince people with closed minds
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:38:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're smart.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:59:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so I guess this isn't really an open thread, is it?

shouldn't that be written somewhere in little letters in legal language?

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:08:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's time for a diary, especially since you claim specific expertise that nobody else on this thread has.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:53:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome is a mechanical engineer as well, I believe.  I don't know if he has any aeronautical experience but I think wind turbines qualify
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:57:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wind turbines are like airplane wings. Fuselage is an entirely different beast. I'm not going to make any statements about Jerome's qualifications. He did study at polytechnique before switching to economics.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:31:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh it's open. Which also includes the right to say that what you write is silly and worse.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:24:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
really?  any reason for saying that or just a prejudice against so-called conspiracy theories that question first ever recorded lack of wreckage after such an impact?  
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:28:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do you keep claiming lack of wreckage after I pointed you to photos of wreckage?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:34:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
wreckage?  no plane wreckage that I can see?  no engines, no seats, no luggage, no bodies

I see a whole in a building, soot marks on the grass and some on the Pentagon, and broken windows

I don't see any plane wreckage

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:46:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Having covered others elsewhere, I'll continue the pictoral proof that you didn't look at my links here:

engine:

hole cut by the right-side engine next to the smashed generator:

wreckage of seats behind the Honeywell GTCP331-200 APU:



*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I see one diffuser case, one turbine wheel, a few fuel hoses, one fuel or oil valve, some electric cabling and a little bit of fuselage

I could fit it in one large suitcase

the point of the makers of the film was that that was ALL the wreckage that existed.  now compare that to another airplane wreckage and you'll find that there isn't a lot here

where's the rest of the seats, engines, fuselage, luggage, etc?  I don't even see little bits of them on the ground

and look at the cable spools - they look intact

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:12:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How many times do you change the story? First you claimed there was no wreckage. Then that there was no sign of the engines. Then that the plane is claimed to have been vaporized literally (torn to molecules), rather than little pieces. Having shown you examples against all three (wreckage pieces both large and small, engine pieces, lots of small pieces lying on the grass), now you shift to claim that my examples are "all". (And no that large piece in my other picture comment is not from the bow.) Well if you would check my links at last, you'd see a couple of other photos, and those are again only brought up as examples in longer aticles. I also posted more photos of structural parts down below. (And these pieces definitely don't fit into a suitcase.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:45:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here we go again - the difference between a physicist and an engineer

physicist:  none =0.000000

engineer:  0 ± 1 or 2

by none, I meant not a lot.  You don't even have enough parts to build 1/10 of an engine there.  there are 2 engines.  about 150 seats and at least 100 people with their baggage.  (other engineers would understand that, by the way.)

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:00:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
looking at the diffuser case, I am surprised that the injectors were knocked right out of their holes.  they're fastened pretty tight in there.  all of them seemed to be gone too.  pretty extraordinary.  
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

And sprinkling the thread with "1" and "2" ratings and using a righteous, insulted tone does little for your credibility.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:34:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The thread might have turned out differently if you had said "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" initially, instead of bringing up Kos' banning policy.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You honestly think so?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:53:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, the entire pie fight is a subthread of "Oh for God's Sake", and manon got instantly defensive as a result of your comment.  Let me run the direct thread leading to this comment past you:
manon: I just watched "Loose Change"
Fran: The conspiracy thing just doesn't seem to go away
manon: What convinced me was the pentagon crash
Jerome: I don't intend to ban anyone on this like on dKos, but I find the topic tasteless, pointless and mindless.
manon: so I guess this isn't really an open thread, is it?
Jerome: Oh it's open. Which also includes the right to say that what you write is silly and worse.
manon: Really?  any reason for saying that or just a prejudice?
Jerome: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And sprinkling the thread with "1" and "2" ratings and using a righteous, insulted tone does little for your credibility.
Migeru: The thread might have turned out differently if you had said "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" initially, instead of bringing up Kos' banning policy.
Jerome: You honestly think so?
I honestly do.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, being scrupulously fair, I'm sure you'll put somewhere in the wiki that my policy regarding conspiracy theories is "show me the beef"  and that I have little patience for assertions that rely heavily on title rather than on actual content.

You may note also that, apart form my initial comment, I dropped in at comment 80 or 90. Obviously I was not successful at stopping this silliness. Maybe I should have censored things, since I'm accused of it anyway.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:11:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You were successful at starting them, then come in 80 or 90 comments later and accude manon of being incivil.

I am not going to put anything "somewhere in the wiki" about your policy on anything. There are places for admins to put those kinds of things.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru, there's something like 1 hr 10 mins between

I guess this isn't really an open thread..?

and

Oh it's open. Which also includes the right...

1 hr and 10 mins of invective.

Your "montage" isn't of any help because it doesn't reflect the real flow of the thread.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:16:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I am sorry, that's how I see it. My point was that the invective has its origin in the mention of Kos' banning policy.

But you make a good point.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:21:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
had its origin in an unsubstantiated "9/11 did not happen" assertion.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:23:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
mais non

No one is saying 9-11 did not happen.

Some people are just questioning how it happened.

Remember the magic bullet in the JFK assassination?

Questioning established facts is not a bad thing, IMHO.

You guys see wreckage, and I see a few items.  You guys see proof from the burn marks on the building, I don't see anything of the sort.  

Why is that a bad thing?

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:42:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:04:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:07:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Naturally.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:09:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:13:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But of course.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:44:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This sub-thread is laughable. And I mean that literally. Or 'lol' as it is also written.
by A swedish kind of death on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 08:33:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"open" as in "open fire range"?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:40:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
open as in "open for business"
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:44:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand that comment, manon. Would you care to explain?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you know, someone's brain is open for business, i.e. working
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:37:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think mine's working. Mind you, I'm not an engineer or even a physicist, so I don't know what kind of brain I might have. For what it's worth, my brain tells me the subject there was the thread, not someone's brain.

So someone's brain was open for business? Really?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:49:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm trying to respond to a few people so I may be mistaken in my response to you
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:06:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's obvious that you originally meant "'open' as in 'unrestricted content'", so why not just say that?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:09:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
because there have been no restrictions on content.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:12:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think manon likes other people speaking for her, Mig.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru can be my official spokesperson anytime

that way, I can get a Spanish translation as well

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:26:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sorry - I thought I was talking about closed minds
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:24:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru said "open" as in "open fire range", and you thought it was about closed minds so you said "open for business"?

Look, let's be kind and say you must have been very confused. And didn't mean to make unfortunate insinuations about this site and the way it's run, or the people, Jerome first, who put in a huge amount of their time here for 0 kopeks.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:39:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:24:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the extraordinary claim here is the accepted theory that for the first time in history, an aircraft impact caused vaporisation of the plane
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then it should be easy to debunk. Where's the plane? Where are the passengers that took that flight? etc, etc.

what caused this?



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:51:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that's not airplane wreckage

those are doors and other parts of the building

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:56:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and I'm pretty good at recognizing my mechanical parts  - I can recognize a high pressure tube from a regular tube and most engineers can't
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:58:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please stop bragging. It's unseemly. You're digging your won hole faster than a Boeing could.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:02:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that's not bragging

bragging would be much more unbearable

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:13:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hey, give it a try.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (jeromeguillet@yahoo.fr) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:21:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can cook better than Paul Bocuse!
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:28:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then it should be easy to debunk. Where's the plane? Where are the passengers that took that flight? etc, etc.

As the US government has had plans that included the fake desturtion of an airplane, this approach might not get you very far.

Wikipedia on Operation Northwoods:

The suggestions included:
[...]
Destroying an unmanned drone masquerading as a commercial aircraft supposedly full of "college students off on a holiday". This proposal was the one supported by the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

On the other hand:

what caused this?

Leads into a whole other direction filled with speculation.

In general I think one should be allowed to question one theory about an event without immediately presenting another. The need to have a complete story at every point is in my opinion one of the driving forces behind the 'conspiracy theory'-discourse that is counterproductive to an investigative approach an rational discourse (as I believe a huge part of this thread shows).

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 09:01:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly naive and stupid, and debunked several times, but tasteless, pointless (from the writers' point of view)?

Also, as much as "where are the wings" & co get on me with every repetition, I'd say that while there are real conspiracies, conspiracy theories can't be dismissed out of hand, it shall be done on a case-by-case basis. (BTW there is a diary up at present with MS Estonia conspiracy theories, which after some pre-knowledge and some research I see exactly on the level of 9/11 ones.)

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:17:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no need to get personal.  

I don't know why you should take this as some sort of personal affront, but in my professional experience, that is not what a plane wreck looks like.  

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How many planes crashing into massive buildings at near maximum speed have been part of your professional experience?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:21:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
actually, a plane crash is a plane crash if the velocity and fuel level is the same, you can extrapolate for the conditions of the object that was hit

what makes you so eminently qualified to judge events?  blind faith or something more substantial?

by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:27:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no answer.  I guess blind faith.  And I thought we were all hip people who didn't put much faith in blind faith.
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:33:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You want an answer in twelve minutes???
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:34:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ok, you know something about engineering and/or aircraft?
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:35:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me? Shit no. But I don't get all cranky if I don't get a response within twelve minutes.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hell, I can't even do arithmetic. Make that six minutes.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:38:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
how about if I called you stupid and naive like I just was?
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:38:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh feel free. It seems to be the fashion around here right now.

Anyway, he didn't call you stupid and naive. He called the theory that. Not only stupid and naive people hold stupid and naive theories.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you forgot to mention that people who support the accepted theories without knowing anything about the field in question, feel they know it all.  not all of them are ignorant.
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
After 6 years of schooling and 10 years of profesional exprience, don't try to tell me to accept your word about something because you said so.
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:48:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you confusing me and DoDo? I didn't ask you to accept anything?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:51:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
then maybe you shouldn't be arguing his case?
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He was trying to moderate.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
oh, is that what you call moderating around here?  
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:58:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have a point.

I prefer the cupcake method of moderating, myself...

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:00:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Can I have a cupcake?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:04:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it's Colman we're talking about. If you look at the ET-opedia article on "grumpy" his picture is on it.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And did I?

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.
by DoDo on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:55:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stop it.  Both of you.  Please.  With a cherry on top.



Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:45:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey.

I happen to know that there is a subliminal flashing message on the title "open thread" which reads Please Be Overly Irritable! ... Please Be Overly Irritable! ... but let's all make an effort to ignore it.  We are better than some crappy brainwashing technology.  We can overcome it.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:41:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BLOODY HELL. WE GIVE YOU THE KEYS TO GNOMEDOM AND HOW DO YOU REPAY US? HOW??? BY GIVING AWAY OUR SECRETS. I HATE YOU!!!!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:43:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Calm down, now, Colman, you're validating poemless's revelations and we don't want that, do we?

Just tell her that theory is stupid and naive, that should do it.

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aha I should have known there was a reason for people fighting so much around here lately. Since your promotion we've been packing punches around like Mike Tyson on a blindfold.

But I'll let you in on my own thought about this: fighting is good, it shows that we're passionate.

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:52:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whaddayou know about anything anyway?

When locusts move on, they leave nothing behind
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:58:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I read a great quote today, in a comic book by Goossens ("Encyclopedia of Babies"):

"The ultimate quest for a baby, is that for wisdom. In certain philosophies, the quest for Wisdom expresses itself as the slow ascension towards Buddhahood. At the end of his quest, a Western baby can brutally decide to slow down all his daily gestures and reduce the size of his universe. He is then capable of playing cards for hours straight, while talking about his daily life to a barman. It is the ultimate renouncement of the desire to achieve Buddhahood that only a wise Westerner is capable of".

by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:10:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, I had nothing to do with this one.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:59:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aha, so you admit to having everything to do with all the other ones?
I'm calling my 7-foot tall buddies.
by Alex in Toulouse on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:05:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
spoken like a true Frenchman ;-)
by manon (m@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:19:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry Alex...totally off the topic...just found this...we thought you might like it...

http://www.tourdafrique.com/orient/index.htm

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. Oscar Wilde

by Sam on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:03:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
manon, I'm certainly not the instant-reply type, I do my research, as it happens I was doing it just to reply your other comment downthread.

One plane crash is not the other if velocity and fuel level is the same, the impacted medium and impact angle also count.  But I asked you specifically about speed, too.

what makes you so eminently qualified to judge events?

Of the two of us it wasn't me who tried to use the argument from authority.

*Traitor*, n.
A benighted individual who perceives an illusory distinction between serving his nation and abetting the criminals who govern it.

by DoDo on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:49:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
speed can be vectored as horizontal and vertical components and thus the angle of impact isn't really important

as for the impacted medium, I have already told you that that was a variable, but if yo