Al Gore Speech at NYU

by rdf
Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 07:36:10 PM EST

Al Gore gave a "major" speech at New York University today. There are threads on dKos dealing with it, but I'd like to express my reservations.

He made several policy proposals. The most important (with my remarks) below.


  1. The US needs to help the big three car makers compete against foreign (more efficient) vehicles. This means supporting hybrid, flex fuel vehicles.

  2. The US should substitute a pollution tax (meaning Carbon Dioxide) for payroll social security and Medicare taxes.

  3. Coal should be encouraged but all CO2 should be "sequestered". Plants would be zero emission.

  4. Nuclear will play a small role, limited by the expense and size of plants as well as the fear of nuclear proliferation.

  5. "Family" farmers should be encouraged to grow low tillage fuel crops like switch grass.

  6. The US (and I guess elsewhere) should put an immediate freeze on the amount of Carbon Dioxide emitted, so that the amount won't continue to increase. We will then start to discuss how to make the total decline.

  7. Liberals and environmentalists should join with religious groups who are interested in "stewardship" of the earth and make these moral issues.

My 2 cents:

  1. The big three have had decades to develop more efficient vehicles. They spent billions in government sponsored programs and produced little. What's the real difference if a Toyota factory in Alabama makes cars or a Ford plant in Michigan? History has also shown that when efficiency goes up so does driving, there is no net decline in consumption.

  2. If the tax works and firms pollute less than the tax revenue will decline and there won't be funds for the social programs. Taxes either generate revenue or control behavior, they can't do both at once.

  3. Sequestering is unproven and the environmental damage from extracting coal was not addressed.

  4. He assumed that the waste storage, safety and reliability issues will be solved.

  5. Family farms play a minuscule role in the overall economy. If growing fuel crops becomes viable it will be run by agribusiness. We all know studies about how much land and water is available to grow the crops and extract the ethanol.

  6. There was no discussion of how would freeze the total. Neither technical nor economic concerns were considered. This would be left to the "people" to decide, I guess. Limiting emissions now would require immediate constraints on new car purchases, new building codes and retrofitting of factories if they are to add capacity.

  7. I have no complaints with appealing to people's moral beliefs, but so far he is the only one. Perhaps he can inspire others.

There was no mention of the depletion of natural resources or sustainable development, or scaling back economic activity. Nothing was said about over population or declining water and arable land. The focus was strictly on cutting greenhouse gases. As a barn burner speech it was better than anything else being said by politicians these days, but as a blueprint it was short on details.

I guess its a step in the right direction, but I'm still waiting for someone to acknowledge that the world is finite.

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I'll have to go read the original, but as a quick response to number 6, they could always institute a cap and trade scheme for major emitters, similar to that used under the Clean Air Act for air pollution. This provides a financial incentive for reducing emissions, as well as limiting the total (obviously they'd need to supplement it with other measures to target the transport sector and home heating).

As for 3, I agree, sequesteration is looking about as likely as fusion power.  Until then, they can always plant trees, I suppose - but that's probably not a real solution in the US (it is looking like a real solution in NZ).

by IdiotSavant on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 08:01:09 PM EST
IMHO Emissions trading is total bollocks.  If it d work then they wouldn't do it.

I remember attending a meeting during "Derivatives Week" in London a couple of years ago. Unusually there were some serious traders on the panel. (it's about the only time you get them away from their desks)

When asked their views whether emissions trading would work, they all said no, and the audience agreed.  As one of the audience said:

"If you want to keep a Donkey healthy, you don't regulate what comes out of it, you regulate what goes in".

In other words the only thing that would work to cut consumption is massive levies and taxes, (or maybe, alternatively to create an energy-based currency, and to apply levies to non-renewables which could be invested in renewables).

Of course that would be "bad" for economic growth, which we have to have or the system implodes.

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 10:59:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From an energy point of view, light rail is far more efficient that cars will ever be.  Really no mention?  

I should add that in the northeast United States and around Chicago there are extensive passenger rail systems that, under the pressures of privatization and infrastructure looting, are being allowed to decay.  

Any realistic plan--because it is so easy--would actively reverse decline and seek to extend these systems.  

Did he really fail to mention that suburbia is unsustainable, and that our social/residential infrastructure must be redesigned?  

Is he aware that if we grow crops for fuel we will come up short for food?  Americans should think about this before they end up starving to keep their cars on the road.  You think it won't happen?  Unless we change course (a big unless, true) it WILL happen.  

Whatever purpose these proposals may serve, they don't look like a workable approach to issues of energy shortage and global warming.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 09:28:53 PM EST
light rail is fine in urban areas.  Not so cost effective out in the sticks.

I live on an island with 60K people.  I can't imagine what the cost of a light rail system would be.  I have to think a forest of windmills and electric vehicles would be 1/10th the cost.

by HiD on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 05:12:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tenerife is a volcanic island 1/2 the size of Hawaii island and with 5 times the population, and it doesn't have light rail. It does have extensive bus service. According to wikipedia, they are building a tram in Santa Cruz.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 05:23:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oahu is looking at mass transit, but they have about 900K folks on an island about the same size as ours.

I like mass transit.  rode the bus or train every day in London.  Only time I took a car for my commute was when I took a cab home after drinking past the last train.  L60 can sober you up in a hurry.

by HiD on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 05:54:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You should have tried the Night Buses. All human life is there (and a lot that isn't human, I suspect)

Modern conservatives engage in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy: the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.Galbraith
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 11:03:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
light rail is fine in urban areas.  Not so cost effective out in the sticks.  

But high density areas is precisely where efficiencies in reducing carbon production are easiest.  And these systems already exist:  They merely have to be maintained and refurbished.  Thirdly, although rail lines  are certainly expensive, they are not nearly as expensive as six-lane highways.  So they are absolutely cheaper as well as being more energy efficient and carbon efficient.  

You are out in the sticks?  Suburbs, exurbs, or real country?  Suburbs and exurbs are simply unsustainable--even if we do not plan for it, they will be abandoned as energy collapse closes in.  Attempts to keep them going in the face of collapse will be wasted effort--and exercises in pain maximization.  I suppose the US will indeed do much to maximize its distress--as most Americans cannot imagine anything beyond their pod-based, disconnected, TV-regulated lifestyle.  

Real country is different:  Buses might work between villages, but individual transport will always be wanted.  But efficiency in individual transport is also possible, and there are several ways to seek it, including reducing horsepower to what is actually needed.  Depending how far out you really are, horses might recommend themselves.  

Electric vehicles will require a high-tech infrastucture.  This may make sense where you are, but the US is sinking to third-world status at an accelerating rate, and building a new, untried infrastructure is not going to happen.  Also, while electric vehicles are an improvement over internal combustion engines, they are a transition solution, being unsustainable in the long run, and have secondary effects problems, such as pollution from waste storage batteries.  Although these problems can be mitigated with conscious effort, they cannot be solved with available or foreseeable techniques.  

Personally, I like bicycles.  For short distances (something like 5 to 10 km.) they are far superior in every way to anything else.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 07:31:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Al Gore is a political realist who knows that he can't advocate a $25 per gallon gas tax and maintain any hope of ever getting elected to anything. So in general these seem to be steps in the right direction.

Although I'm a bit confused about item 6, the freezing of CO2 emissions. The only way to do that would be to stop driving--and breathing; neither is practical. Perhaps the correct meaning is to stop the rate of increase of CO2 emissions?

Also I'm not sure about your comment on item 4. Are you talking about the handling of the waste from coal plants? Perhaps you have not been to our great American West: We can store a LOT of ash.

by asdf on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 10:24:45 PM EST
Oh, never mind on number 4. I was misreading it. Why screw around with the political hassles of nukes when you can just put in hundreds of coal plants?
by asdf on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 10:26:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Although I'm a bit confused about item 6, the freezing of CO2 emissions. The only way to do that would be to stop driving--and breathing; neither is practical. Perhaps the correct meaning is to stop the rate of increase of CO2 emissions?

That is how I'd interpreted it, hence my comment about cap and trade.

by IdiotSavant on Mon Sep 18th, 2006 at 10:34:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find it very frustrating that people have bought into the myth that Ford and GM do not have any fuel-efficient designs.

They manufacture and sell cars in Europe and those aren't all F-150 trucks. The fact is that Ford and GM still appear to believe the fuel efficiency is a passing fad.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 03:02:31 AM EST
shitty management.  It's not the engineering talent.  Toyota stuck their neck out to invest in hybrids.  Where was GM?

I say let GM and Ford go down.  Enough bailouts.  I'd rather spend the bailout money on the retirees pensions.

by HiD on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 05:15:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I say "buyouts, not bailouts". If the American people want the banks, the airlines, the car manufacturers saved [or if the states where GM and Ford employ the most people want them saved for employment's sake], any government "bailout" money should actually go towards owning the company.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 05:26:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I feel the same way re farm subsidies.  the money should be used to buy up all farming/development rights.  And focus on the river/stream banks that we spend a fortune to keep from flooding.  Let the riparian ecology come back.
by HiD on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 05:56:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd rather spend the bailout money on the retirees pensions.  

For sure.  These people earned it outright.  Ford and GM are engaging in theft--breaking their contracts, reneging, and cheating.  It is only a malign government and corrupt court system  that allows them to do it.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 07:36:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So you finally went to the lecture despite your objections to the intrusive security measures which you diaried last time.

Was it worth it to have to show ID to go in, and not being able to bring a backpack?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 05:13:38 AM EST
Actually the security turned out to be pretty minimal. The group which offered me the ticket had a table and just checked off my name (and looked at my ID) before I entered the hall. This isn't any different than ordering event tickets online for pickup at the event.

There was a checkroom for those who brought packages. Several private police and one obvious Secret Service man. If there were others they weren't immediately visible.

I still feel the continual emphasis on security is fear mongering. Today government employees are objecting to having to work in the new freedom tower (if and when it gets built). They feel it will be a target for new attacks.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 10:25:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Obama gave a speech at Georgetown Univ which sounded the same themes as Gore:

  1. Flexfuel vehicles
  2. Support for biofuels
  3. Financial support for the big three auto makers
  4. Improvement of CAFE standards

I don't know if this is the new set of talking points for the "liberal" wing of the Democratic party or if both of them are looking at the presidency.

The same defects in the plans are still obvious:
1 and 3: Clinton gave the big three billions to develop better vehicles, they wasted all the money. Why support them if the Japanese make a better car? Many of these are built in the US anyway. Sounds like pandering to the rust belt voters.

  1. No mention of diversion of land from other uses, or the amount of water and fuel needed to make ethanol.

  2. Last increase in CAFE just led to an increase in miles driven.

Are these guys uninformed, or just playing politics? Why don't they mention conservation and/or mass transit. Gore did propose zero net energy buildings, saying that people have told him this is feasible right now. He glossed over the cost, except for suggesting a special fund to help pay for extra costs over time instead of adding it directly to the purchase price.

When politicians propose unworkable plans just to get elected what do they plan to do once in office?

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 04:33:29 PM EST
What do you mean?

First of all, these points 1-4 are workable, they just don't seem terribly effective.

Second of all, don't politicians promise unworkable plans just to get elected all the time (like "lower taxes, improve public services")?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 20th, 2006 at 04:37:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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